The monkey should be on Congress to pass a law making it illegal. They can't, and know it. Thus they want the AG to declare it torture. This do nothing Congress is disgusting.

I would appoint Bolton as AG during the coming recess. Take that Biden, Schumer, Kennedy, Kerry and Kucinick.

That's your argument? Waterboarding is not torture because your friend said so? Pretty weak.

Would you use waterboarding on suspected terrorists, to see if they are really terrorists, or just people who say "I'm a terrorist"? Are you that scared of terrorists that you would risk the possibility of torturing innocent people? If so, you are a coward.

extra - make it a law then. You're in power. YOU decide. MAKE IT A LAW, or STFU.

Matt,
During WW II, Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, as well the Gestapo, the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture. It was used by the Khmer Rouge at Tuol Sleng and by the Spanish during the Spanish Inquisition. Was it torture then?

Its not torture?

Then why did we convict Japanese soldiers for doing it to American POW's?

Im not say we shouldnt use it on suspected terrorists. But if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, you sound pretty stupid trying to say it a dog.

Say what it is: Torture that gets useful information from terrorists very quickly.

I personally no problem using the technique on suspected terrorists.

However its pretty funny watching people try to say its not torture.

If its not that bad...why dont we do it on all American citizens that are charged with a crime?

Police are allowed to interrogate suspects until they request a lawyer. We could start water boarding immediately upon arrest, get answers very quickly before they can lawyer up.

I've got my old Marine hat on:

If terrorists aren't to be properly interrogated, then why bother capturing them? Why take any risks and why waste our resources? Just kill them. Is that what liberals want? Oh, I know it's too late for the ones we've already got. I mean the ones we're after now.

A good friend of mine, he's been dead as couple of years now was a Marine corporal on Guadalcanal. One day his company commander called him and asked him why his squad never took any prisoners. His answer? "We don't take prisoners."

The modern day Marine is a direct descendant of those Marines on the Canal. You want them to be ruthless? Just say the word.

Whose side are the Democrats on anyway?

You have to ask? According to Democrats, the real threat is not the terrorists, it's the Christian right.

stevo - thats NOT what we convicted Japanese soldiers for. They actually beat, actually shot, actually starved our men. They did germ warfare experiments on them. They refused them medicine. They would shoot ten if one escaped. The beheaded American pilots. Hung, beheaded, and shot American soldiers and Marines, and sailors.

You are so freakin' ignorant.

Sorry, that would have been the point where I came across the bar...

Was it torture then?

Of course--and because we didn't have neocon idiots running the show back then, we didn't torture and got the results we were looking for (emphases mine):

Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Poor Kahn and his Marine hat must be so conflicted right now...these guys were military veterans and therefore to be deified by him...yet they were also clearly, by what we'll charitably call Kahn's "logic," enemy-appeasing America haters who were soft on Nazis. I mean, steak dinners and chess with Rudolf Hess? Why didn't they just invite Hitler to become the U.S. president while they were at it? Whose side were they on, anyway, all coddling Nazis instead of properly interrogating them, right Margolis?

Waterboarding is torture. To equivocate this point shows just how misinformed some of you are. If you want an agruement about it, ask John McCain.
And yes, Neocon the Christianists are a potential threat to democracy because they want to institutionalize their brand of old timey religion and make it law. Sound familar?
You all can rant and rave till you run out of oxygen and turn blue. Nothing can stop the progressivness of society, culture and politics. Not your denial and not your machinations. Killing doesn't bring security, torture provides false answers and promoting fear is not a sign of effective leadership.
The United States used to stand for the higher moral ground and when we wallow in the mud we get covered just as well.

Kahn-

You are wrong....Waterboarding Historically Controversial
In 1947, the U.S. Called It a War Crime; in 1968, It Reportedly Caused an
Investigation

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, October 5, 2006; A17

Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese
officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of
waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher
that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor,
and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping
for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor,"

It is torture and has been since the spanish inquisition.

I can not believe we are even having this discussion in this country. We are supposed to be better than this for God's sake, you guys are so terrified of Al Qaeda hiding in your pantry you'll throw out everything good about this nation.

Here's SEALs take on it:

"1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor."

Read the rest if you have any decency left.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

Fine.

Then meet one of Our experts in this art in a public place with cameras rolling and allow Us to waterboard you. If it is such a harmless practice We will sweeten the pot. Choose a series of bits of information you and one other person know and this is what we are to try to intice out of you. The standard waterboarding session is 6 times on the board in a twenty four hour period without letting the subject sleep, eat or clean himself up which means you will be bound hand and foot standing for 24 hours. Now if this practice is a vacation on Catalina the you should be willing to sign the waiver freeing Us of any oliablitiy in case you die at the hands of Our operatives.

Waterboarding is LEGAL in Our Empire and yes it is both torture and very effective.

Qu'ul cuda praedex nihil!

And yes the neocon the Christianist Right is a "clear and present danger," to the continuing hope for peace and prosperity on Terra. Give Us a faithful man over a religious one any day.

Why stop there? Let's bring the CIA Sponsored Swim Lesson to a college campus near you. For use against all scum bags, foreign and domestic. Just like Mr. Taser.

Kahn,

What the hell is a Marine HAT?
When the hell did you ever wear a hat?
Who the hell gave you a hat?
You had better uncscrew yourself in a hurry mister.
Drop and give me 20.
Hat my ass.

"If you want an agruement (sic) about it, ask John McCain." alexanderdelarge

John McCain has never claimed he was waterboarded. So what's your point?

"torture provides false answers"
Do you have such little faith in the military men who are responsible for interrogation?

"promoting fear is not a sign of effective leadership."

You mean like the Dem meme that Republicans want to poisin the air and water, starve kids and kill the elderly?

Finally something on which we agree.

Amazing how these folks pretend to be so superior, morally and intellectually! Pro abortion, corrupt, liars, thieves, same sex marriage, public oral sex. Pro Castro, pro Chavez, and have the same platform as OBL. Anti gay if conservative. Anti black if conservative. Progressive. What a hoot.

to the continuing hope for peace and prosperity on Terra. Give Us a faithful man over a religious one any day.

You're blind, Pain, blind my friend!!! Blind and blind can be!!! Pity.

What are you talking about? Faith in himself, if so? He will not lead.

How can you know peace?

A man who is lost will not and cannot bring peace, because he does not know peace--he is turned and tossed about by distractions of a sin sick world.

There is one place you may find peace, my friend, and that's through Jesus Christ, The Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Lord of Lords--for ALL Eternity!!!

Our Founders knew this very well!!!

Jeremiah

Phnx & Sew-

It is nice how you guys change the subject. And it is funny that Kahn is nowhere to be found.

It is torture and it is against the law.

So it's not torture huh? So why can't Mukasey just can't come out and say that then? Why does he hedge around this issue?

The fact that this is even being discussed just shows how far we've sunk under Bush - our moral compass is broken.

Okay then SEW pick which one you aren't anti? Of course you are going to say “Well I don't hate black people,” but I bet you avoid them at every turn. When’s the last time you had a Negro over for dinner? Got any daughters? How'd you feel if she brought a black man home, or how about another white girl? Ooooh I doubt would sit well with the folks down at the local SBC. But if she were to get pregnant and the father is a white drug addict and she's 14 maybe you would consider visiting one of those nice Planned Parenthood facilities because your mortgage and other bills just won't allow taking care of a kid for the next six years.

I know you hate Chavez and Castro but not half as much as their people hate Bush so that's a push. Let's see liars and thieves. Hmm, I write a regular column about preachers that get caught with under age girls and boys who lie to the cops all the time. Most of 'em are peach skinned and blue eyed just like me but you see they've got this problem that they have to find the weakest most trustworthy people on the planet to take advantage of so they go and work their way into a church see and earn the trust of people who actually believe what people say instead of watching what they do.

Corruption? Okay Noonan and Margolis wrote a book and it took them literally forever to come up with enough dirt on Democrats to fill their pages. That’s fine I can list just the number of members of the GOP from the White House down that are neck deep in the Abramoff scandal that is so radioactive the Department of Justice refuses to dig any deeper until AFTER BUSH IS OUT OF OFFICE because it may be damaging to the credibility of the sitting government. This comes from a source close to the investigation being conducted by the Miami US Attorney’s office. Politics by its nature is rife with corruption but if you really want to go down the list I can accommodate. And here’s the kicker the next GOP president will have to pardon President Bush when he leaves office if not he’s going to leave the country to his daddy’s ranch in Paraguay.

And just for GP could someone please waterboard Jeremiah? I’d love to keep playing with you boys but the game isn’t rough enough for me and besides it’s Friday night and I have a date with one of the prettiest girls in Hell.

Ciao!

"It is torture and it is against the law".

Indeed you are sleepy. Speaking of changing the subject, please cite the specific statute.

I'm waiting.

And yes, Neocon the Christianists are a potential threat to democracy because they want to institutionalize their brand of old timey religion and make it law. Sound familar?

Who are the Christianists?

So exactly what is it about the "old timey religion" you're afraid of? The unacceptance of same sex marriage? The attempt to preserve innocent life in the womb? Perhaps the Ten Commandments in the public square? These are the main issues that CHRISTIANS rally around and I can see where you could be horrified by them considering the liberals agenda of trying to force gay marriage on the public along with condoning NAMBLA, advocating abortion on demand, idolizing Castro and Chavez, and wanting to appease mass murders.

Sleepy, the statute you will cite addresses torture, not waterboarding. Two different things and even spelled differently. What is your definition of is? Thank you Slick Willy.

18 USC 2340

Section 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter -
(1) "torture" means an act committed by a person acting under
the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical
or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering
incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his
custody or physical control;
(2) "severe mental pain or suffering" means the prolonged
mental harm caused by or resulting from -
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of
severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened
administration or application, of mind-altering substances or
other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or
the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be
subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the
administration or application of mind-altering substances or
other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or
personality; and

(3) "United States" includes all areas under the jurisdiction
of the United States including any of the places described in
sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501(2) of title 49.

There is your statute SEW.

And to bolster my argument SEW, we imprisoned a Japanese soldier, Yukio Asano, for 15 years for among other things waterboarding. See my previous post. It was torture in 1947 and it is torture today. I thought conservative were rule of law people. But because some muslims scare the shit out of you we must stoop to their level and become savages. Makes no sense to me.

the liberals agenda of trying to force gay marriage on the public

Yes! We're coming to round you up and force you to marry someone else of the same-sex! Watch out!

Oh, after the Larry Craig incident, did you hear the one about Richard Curtis and Cody Castanada? And guess what, like Craig, he's 'not gay'. He just likes getting his joint sucked by strangers in gay video booths. And of course he voted in favor of every anti-gay piece of legislation that came his way. Hypocrite.

But because some muslims scare the shit out of you we must stoop to their level and become savages. - sleepy

No overdramatization there.

I thought you were more knowledgeable than this sleepy. I am horrified that you categorized all "muslims" as Islamic extremists and savages, in fact the vast majority of muslims are peaceful, law abiding citizens that are working along side our military in creating a safe and stable country.

How are we going to build allies in the ME with your kind of hate speech?

Umh, no mention of waterboarding in that one. Try again.

sleepy,

Describe waterboading for me, not as you imagine it, but how it is implemented by our forces. Then tell me how it meets the criteria of torture under 18 USC 2340.

Neocon,

Stop your lying.

Name one liberal [or anyone else for that matter] in the US government that has ever said they supported such an odious and abusive organization such as NAMBLA?

You are the Christianists and those like you are who feel their religion should be thrust in the face of every citizen in America and that your dogma should carry the weight of law replacing the Natural Law the Founding fathers intended to as the fundament of the Constitution.

You could end abortion today if young white women who “regularly attend church” would stop getting pregnant and having abortions. Still this is out of Our domain as a woman has a right to choose when and how often she reproduces just as any several man has a right to choose who Faith he practices, whom he votes for or the people with which he assembles. The issues you Christianists rally around are about controlling what other people do not about moving America forward into the 21st Century. Get your own house in order, Ted Haggard, priests raping boys and nuns, Richard Roberts, the myriad of youth pastors that have abused children in the Southern Baptist Church, liars like reverend Steve Flockhart. Sir, We, Ourselves, beseech you before you make a shambles of the great democracy that is America and darken her future with pre-Renaissance illogic. Go back and get yourselves to where you were as a religion before the Civil Rights era and start over by getting your noses out of everyone's bedrooms and your heads out from between your buttocks.

But, waterboarding is not torture, and I have no idea why Democrats want terrorists to be coddled, not interrogated.

How do you comment on a completely asinine statement as this?

I won't. I'll laugh in your face Matt.

Bhhwaaaaaahhaaaaahhaaahaaaa.

This is why you just gotta love Blogs for Bush.

Bravo!

The waterboarding issue is really a bit of a distraction, at least the exclusive focus on it, as Mukasey represents quite a bit more than that.

As a Federal Judge, he ruled that the President has the power to detain American citizens on U.S. soil indefinitely without ever having to charge them with a crime.

He also believes in the power of the President to violate Congressional statutes.

So it is a little manipulative of the Democrats to now feign concern about the waterboarding issue when they did nothing to deal with the Military Commissions Act and when they knew that Bush was directing the CIA to waterboard detainees who had been convicted OF NOTHING.

So, Dems, too little too late to now complain when they have been complicit in the whole expansion of executive power and presidential law-breaking.

Waterboarding videos can be seen

not USAR1

water 1

water 2

You're right tantraman. Let's burn the Dems at the stake.

One question; on a scale of 1-10, what level of paranoia are you currently at?

Why do you accuse me of being paranoid?

Phnx & SEW-

No waterboarding is not defined in the us code but neither is the rack or peeling off finger nails or crucifixtion or electrodes attached to genitals. I guess those acts are okay by your standards huh? That is precisely why it is important that the AG define what is and what is not torture. Waterboarding is torture.

I'm certain sleepygene and others here would consider it torture if they could not read the DailyKos for a week. On the other hand, I would consider it heavenly to have never even heard of it.

And CO might consider it torture if someone took away a picture of her/his boyfriend. To me that would bring pleasure. Slick Willy, thank you for inquiring about the definition of is.

If and when you clowns return to power maybe we can get back to the wars in Waco and Miami. And deciding what the definition of is is.

I agree with interrogation by force, otherwise -you would never get the information you need.

I mean, how are you get them to say anything if you don't do anything that will work?

Jeremiah

Why do you accuse me of being paranoid?

Oh no reason. Why?

phnx-

This is a generally accepted defintion of waterboarding...Waterboarding consists of immobilizing an individual on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face to force the inhalation of water[8] and induce the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding has been used to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. In contrast to merely submerging the head, waterboarding elicits the gag reflex,[9] and can make the subject believe death is imminent while leaving no physical damage.

This is torture is because it intentionally inflicts severe pain and mental distress by causing the victim to sense they are going to die by violent means, drowning.

Jeremiah, if the Romans waterboarded Jesus, would it be OK with you?

You bloody hypocrite.

This is torture is because it intentionally inflicts severe pain and mental distress by causing the victim to sense they are going to die by violent means, drowning.

sleepygene,

Well, if it's torture, then what about those in question, who are out to cut every American's throat, what not use interrogation by force in order to get that information out?

Jeremiah

Jeremiah, if the Romans waterboarded Jesus, would it be OK with you?

They done far wose to Jesus.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah, if the Romans waterboarded Jesus, would it be OK with you?

We forgave them for nailing our Savior to the cross. Does that count?

The United States of America signed and ratified the Geneva Convention on December 8th, 1949.

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
PART I
GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 3
Each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;"

A narrow minded person wouldn't consider "water boarding" to be humiliating or degrading treatment because it's only going to be done to terrorists.

But a person capable of seeing the big picture might think:
"What if the Iranians capture some American civilians and water board them? What if it was my wife or kid strapped down on that board?

You've all gone on record here to say that you don't have a problem with it so we would have no way to go after the Iranians for war crimes if they do it.

The Geneva Convention is there to protect Americans. I suggest you think twice before you trash it.

sleepygene, drowning is pleasurable! What is your definition of is?

mack55, And we can count on the UN to back the GConvention, right? With force or Kerry style diplomacy? What is their record and results?

SEW-

I see that you can not refute my argument. Is=the current state of being.

The Geneva Convention is there to protect Americans. I suggest you think twice before you trash it.

It has certainly served us well in this current conflict.

OK OK, kill them then. The hell with it. Don't take prisoners. You liberals OK with that?

Waterboard? No way? Pop Pop.

"Is=the current state of being"

The most corrupt President of all time disagrees with you. "It depends"!

kill them then

Then we couldn't find those who are out to kill us!!

Jeremiah

Sure we can. They won't stop. We get their computers, their cell phone records, their credit card records and bank records. But why pay to keep them in Guantanamo if we can't get information from them. So, why take them prisoner at all?

Its the liberals here that say don't use aggressive techniques. OK, so I'm on board with that. Every time we have one or a group cornered in a house, bring in the F-18's.

Every time we have one or a group cornered in a house, bring in the F-18's.

I see!! So each one or group we find and eliminate then the next one or group will think twice and give up the info.

Right?

Jeremiah

Oh, and the Japanese "water treatment" was more than just water boarding. I won't cite the reference - since you didn't.

"There are two forms of water torture.
In the first, the victim was tied or held down on his back and a cloth placed over his nose and mouth. Waters was then poured on the cloth. Interrogation proceeded and the victim was beaten if he did not reply. As he opened his mouth to breathe or answer questions, water went down his throat until he could hold no more. Sometimes he was then beaten over his distended stomach, sometimes a Japanese jumped or sometimes pressed it with his foot.
In the second,
The victim was tied lengthways on a ladder, face upwards with a rung of the ladder across his throat and his head below the ladder. In this position he was slid head first into to a tub of water and kept there until almost drowned. After being revived, interrogation continued and he would be re-immersed."

This was used in conjunction with other physical torture, starvation, and executions.

I guess it hurts too much to read, doesn't it?

But again, OK. Just kill them. You've convinced me.

Kahn,

Okay, you've got me bum-fuzzled--

I thought you were serious when you said to "bring in the F-18s".

Q. Are you saying that I'm suggesting that we "not" interrogate?

A. No I'm not, I say we should interrogate, by all means. Cause if they're dead... then they're virtually worthless, there is no brain there to get any information from. In effect--the complete hard-drive is deleted.

Agree?

Jeremiah

Is sleep deprivation torture? Loud music? A cold room?

How about a nice downy feather? Is that an instrument of torture?

Democrats (Liberals) believe torture is anything that forces a terrorist to talk against their will without a lawyer, be that loud music, sleep deprivation, or tickling them with a feather!

How many of you Looney Democrats (Liberals) would allow New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, or San Francisco to be nuked rather than subject a person to sleep deprivation, loud music, extended standing, or a few minutes of waterboarding? How many of you Liberals would sacrifice a million, ten million Americans rather than permit interrogators to use a few minutes of waterboarding?

How many of you Democrats and Liberals would sacrifice your family, friends, and children rather than allow our interrogators to use sleep deprivation, loud music, a cold room... or those few minutes of waterboarding?

Let's hear each one of you Democrats and Liberals tell us you would in fact allow your family and children to be killed rather than permit the use of waterboarding on those who could save their lives!!!

AAR

Neocons are okay-dokey with water boarding. Check.

Now how do you guys feel about rape rooms?
How about rounding-up the detainees’ family members so you could rape his wife, daughters, or mother? Yes, no?

How about dropping his family members into wood chipper feet first? Anyone, anyone?

sleepy,

I asked you specifically to describe waterboading for me, not as you imagine it, but how it is implemented by our forces. Then tell me how it meets the criteria of torture under 18 USC 2340.

The fact of the matter is that you do not know what water boarding is, or how it is practised by our forces. You've never seen it so you are only commenting on what you imagine and what you have heard. Its not some silly youtube video or 'paramilitary" training video. And some 'generally accepted definition' doesn't cut it.

In my military training I have seen interrogation tactics in which men have been broken without anyone laying a finger on them.

So face it, you have no basis but fantasy on which to make your statements. That goes for the rest of you limp wristed leftist wimps who are commenting on this subject.

mack55, drowning is pleasurable. Schumer and Feinstein to vote for Mukasey to move to the floor for vote. There you have it, waterboarding is not torture according to the nutroots!

Now how do you guys feel about rape rooms?
How about rounding-up the detainees’ family members so you could rape his wife, daughters, or mother? Yes, no?

How about dropping his family members into wood chipper feet first? Anyone, anyone?

That's what Saddam Hussein done, for no other reason than HATE.

That's what waterboarding is for--to FIND and capture people like Saddam Hussein!!!

Is that not a worthy goal?

Jeremiah

Bush wins, AGAIN! And he was supposed to finish as a lameduck!

Jeremiah,

Let's say you have a prisoner and you've water boarded him but he won't talk. You know this guy has information about a dirty bomb that's going to go off in New York sometime tomorrow.
If the prisoner won't talk would it be okay to water board the prisoner's 7 year old son?

SEW,
The term "lame duck" refers to an elected official not seeking reelection.
Dubya is a lame duck.

Reading this thread was disgusting. The worst were from Jermiah. From previous post you would have thought he would know better.

Again just another one of those issues that the Limbaugh types have framed perfectly for the lemmings. Democrats are against torture and for upholding the United States responsibiity to the Geneva convention; there Republicans must be for torture and spitting on the Geneva convention.

The clock is ticking on the Neocons. Just as the Germans had to bring their fellow Nazi's to trial, we just might have to have some trials of our own after this radical right wing of the Republican Party are cleansed from our government. Justice has and always will win the day.

Mack55 Merriam-Webster

Lame duck--"one that is weak or falls behind in ability or achievement".

Bush wins, AGAIN. Nutroots cave. Congress is the lame duck. Again.

If the prisoner won't talk would it be okay to water board the prisoner's 7 year old son?

Mack,

No. That's just common sense.

The thing is, you just keep interrogating until the man spits it out.

Now, I don't care what you say. The fact is--What is at stake for millions of lives is more important than concerning ourselves with the inclination that we might be "over interrogating" someone.

This is the way I feel--If it will save lives, then I'm all for it, because those Radical Jihadists would slit a persons throat and not think twice about it. They're Dangerous, and Hillary Clinton thinks that she can play footsy diplomacy with those Radical Nutjobs.

Guess what? They're not interested in talking, they want blood, and lots of it!!!

It's a very serious matter!!!

Jeremiah

There is a website dedicated to survivors of torture. I am sure there must be first-hand accounts of people were suffered from waterboarding.

http://www.survivorsoftorture.org/survivors/index.html

The easiest way to determine if a certain act is torture is to ask the people that survived it.

Or you can look at Article III of the Geneva Convention

SEW sez:
"Lame duck--"one that is weak or falls behind in ability or achievement."

SEW, I agreed with you. I said Dubya is a lame duck. We finally agree on something.

SEW,
I forget, why did Dubya go shopping for a new AG anyway?
Oh that’s right, the democratic majority in the congress forced Alberto Gonzales crooked butt out of Washington. I hear Gonzo is still looking at several criminal charges too. Congress is just waiting until after the 2008 elections. We don’t want him pardoned the way Scooter was.

The thing is, you just keep interrogating until the man spits it out.

Jeremiah has it all worked out. Except there is no evidence that treating prisoners this way leads to useful intelligence.

Leaving aside your sick authoritarian fantasies for a moment and suppressed bloodlust, there is no point in engaging in such practices. Why not make the moral distinction between us and the enemy as clear as possible?

And you lost with the "millions of lives" claim. Millions of lives at stake? Don't let fear blind you. If you do, the terrorists have won. And be vigilant for politicans who fearmonger - a fearful population is a compliant one and is likely to allow abuses of power by government. History has taught us this.

Try these.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

tantra - wrong. Why else then would experienced interrogators use this technique?

But again - you're right. Why capture them at all?

And you lost with the "millions of lives" claim. Millions of lives at stake? Don't let fear blind you. If you do, the terrorists have won. And be vigilant for politicans who fearmonger - a fearful population is a compliant one and is likely to allow abuses of power by government. History has taught us this.

tantraman,

Ah, but we do something about that fear...Now don't we? Unlike you Left-Wingers who walk blindly.

The dumb uncaring man who is fearless will lose his head quicker than the Smart and Caring man that acknowledges and SEES that there IS imminent danger and actually does something to depose the threat that he faces.

We can be fearless, but we also realize that there are Evil people who lurk out there who care NOTHING for Life.

Any man with a good heart will realize this and will see a need to end the Evil threats we face.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah,
Take a deep breath. Relax. There are no terrorists under your bed or in your closet.
You have to be a brave little neocon and stop being afraid of everything.
Remember, "A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only once.

We have a Fake War Hero, a Fake Scientist and a Fake Marine. Enough already.

There are no terrorists

Mack,

That's what makes you Democrats so scary!!

Jeremiah

Kahn sez,
"tantra - wrong. Why else then would experienced interrogators use this technique."

These experienced interrogators you speak of got their marching orders from Rumsfeld, who got his orders from Cheney. Neither of these men have any military experience nor they do they have a clue as to how to conduct a war. Look at the management of the Iraq war so far if you want proof of their incompetence. The military will live up to what ever standard you set for it. It can raise it self up to the highest standards and be envied by the world. Or it can suffer moral decay at the hands of its civilian leaders and become a thing despised.

Sew sez:
"We have a Fake War Hero, a Fake Scientist and a Fake Marine. Enough already."

I guess the only thing here that is real is the yellow stripe running down the middle of yours and Jeremiah's back. You two are afraid of terrorists, we get it. So go hide in the woods or something. Don't spread your cowardice all over this great nation.

mack55,

I suggest some worth advice to you:

You need to get off the idiot Left-wing sites like Daily Kos, Code Pink, and MoveOn.Org and start thinking for youself.

If you cared anything for your fellow Americans you would realize the threat we face.

Stop trying to endanger the rest of in this Nation for your Socialist agenda and Political gain.

Jeremiah

If you cared anything for your fellow Americans you would realize the threat we face.

Bullshit. Let's have the courage to live in a country that DOES NOT TORTURE. If we are at greater risk as a result, then so be it. At least we live with a strong degree of moral certitude.

Instead you run around thinking the sky is falling and wanting the 'torture President' Bush to save you from the big bad bogeyman.

You are on a slippery slope Jeremiah with your unflnching acceptance of torture in a nation that has prided itself on doing much better than this.

Tantraman,

Well, with that attitude, then might as well figure on licking the boots of the Taliban.

I won't bow to them! ! ! !

Jeremiah

mack - what was YOUR MOS?

You think the bosses ask for results or specify techniques? You git.

Buts its OK, kill 'em, I say.

Kahn,

0311 Rifleman

Yep, kill'em all and let God sort them out.
Semper Fi, do or die! Hoorah.

Who's asking you to bow to the Taliban? I suspect if you were born in Afghanistan you'd be one of them, judging by your attitudes and unwavering belief in the need to inflict pain to get your way.

If it's not torture, then why the renditions and need to do this stuff out of US jurisdiction? And of course if Mukasey admitted that waterboarding were torture, then we'd have people in this Administration guilty of war crimes. Chickens coming home to roost and all that.

Go and read about waterboarding: http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

and reconcile that with Bush's claim that "we don't torture".

If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives.

tantra - the only enemy we've faced in the last 100 years who didn't regularly torture our people was the Germans. ALL the others did. ALL.

The Germans did execute many POW's. There were big incidents in the Battle of the Bulge and after the break-out described in the "Great Escape". But they were not the only incidents.

The Japanese would pour water right down your throat and nose - they called THAT waterboarding. Of course, they also beat you at the same time and didn't feed you or give you medical care. Ever read up on the Bataan Death March or the Burma Railroad?

EVERY enemy we have fought tortured and often killed our POW's. Welcome, as the saying goes "to the real world."

But I say don't even take them prisoner if you're so concerned with their treatment.

Hey Kahn,

How about this one, it was my favorite:

Join the Marines and travel to far away exotic lands. Meet interesting new people and kill them.

That one still cracks me up.

Since Liberals (Democrats) are so "very concerned" about torture and people's lives, one would have thought Democrats, at the very least, would have removed Saddam for the atrocities and genocide he had committed, and to prevent the atrocities and genocide he would likely have committed in the future. One would have thought Democrats would have removed Saddam solely for all the killing, murder, rape, and torture he had committed, and to protect untold numbers from the same fate in the future, regardless of all the other reasons to remove him!

Saddam Hussein, didn't use the mild interrogation techniques that Democrats "call" torture. Saddam used REAL TORTURE... like people being skinned alive... people being carved up into pieces while they are still alive... people whose eyes were poked out and their tongues cut out while they were still alive... people who were sexually mutilated (not embarrassed or photographed) while they were still alive... people whose bones were crushed while they were still alive... people who were forced to watch their family members being mutilated and carved up... and various other creative forms of torture!

Democrats feign "outrage" that our interrogators would use sleep deprivation, loud music, a cold room... or a few minutes of waterboarding to save American lives, American families, and American cities... but if it were left to the Democrats, Saddam Hussein would still be performing REAL TORTURE on many more thousands of men, women, and children... while Democrats permitted it to continue!

AAR

Kahn,
The entire world saw how good we treated our prisoners during WWII and that made America better and stronger in the eyes of the world. I agree with you though, either you kill’em, or you let’em go. Torturing is for sadistic assholes.

If it's not torture, then why the renditions and need to do this stuff out of US jurisdiction?

False, interrogation has been a part of our entire history, only it has changed--there is no harm done to the person by brutal excessive force. We don't harm their physical appearance as they did in medieval times.

For further reference, I direct you to the following:

Interrogation.

Jeremiah

Mack - so you think stories of our humane treatment were big in the press of China, Japan, Korea, Germany, and the Soviet Union at the time? The Communists in Viet Nam made sure everyone knew how good we were to our prisoners?

Think. I know it hurts. But think will you? There has not been a country in Asia or Africa we've gone up against that doesn't value human life less than us. They have all tortured and killed our people. get a clue.

Jeremiah, that may be the case but why do we need to use extraordinary rendition to kidnap people to other jurisdictions to 'interrogate' them?

Why do we need to do this stuff to people outside the jurisdiction of US laws? What an outrage.

Why do we need to do this stuff to people outside the jurisdiction of US laws? What an outrage.

Tantraman,

How on Gods earth would you then justify what the terrorists done to this nation down through the last decade or has your head been in the sand like most of your liberals and Democrats who refuse to face up to the fact that we have a real enemy out there that literally hates us with all passion, who will go to every extreme in their mind, body and soul to cause jihad upon every one of us and thank God we have some in this great and marvelous Nation who is willing to use their heads logically, wisely, militarily and stand against those who do such things against us. Sure you justify 9/11, or do you?? what about the USS Cole Bombings, or the Barracks Attacks, My friend, you best thank God and your God fearing President and those who are willing to stand for what little bit of freedom you have, otherwise, stick your head in the sand, bite the dust and keep your mind shut, because you're sure not using your head at all, and I say that respectully Sir, because its because of the just mentioned people who are like our forefathers, they cared about this Nation and they were willing to Fight and Die even if it means taking the battle to the other side of the Waters. And outside of the United States Laws, my friend, you absolutely have NO CLUE as to what you are propagating before your very eyes because these terrorists are planning, building and devising every EVIL known under the sun against all of us and you ask such a darn foolish question like that. That is so shameful that we have people who are so foolish minded to believe such an atrocity against our own. God help America and Bless the Fools!

Jeremiah

The entire world saw how good we treated our prisoners during WWII and that made America better and stronger in the eyes of the world.

So dropping two atom bombs had no effect? Maybe we should drop an atom bomb on Iran, and then we'll treat their prisoners really nice and everyone will like us.

RE: "Why do we need to do this stuff to people outside the jurisdiction of US laws?"

Because we want the bad guys to talk and incriminate themselves!

We want the bad guys to and tell us the details of pending attacks so we can save the lives of American soldiers and families -- so we can prevent an attack on American embassies, cities, and other interests!

We don't want the terrorists to be read "Miranda rights", assigned a taxpayer funded pro-terrorist ACLU lawyer, and told to keep quite until the American court systems sets them free to continue their "work"!

America is last place we should ever bring a terrorist from whom we need critical information to save American lives!

AAR

"These experienced interrogators you speak of got their marching orders from Rumsfeld, who got his orders from Cheney." Mack55

A serious case of CDS compounded by RDS has fried your brain. Where do you get such nonsense?

"These experienced interrogators you speak of got their marching orders from Rumsfeld, who got his orders from Cheney." Mack55

A serious case of CDS compounded by RDS has fried your brain. Where do you get such nonsense?

Of course simulated drowning is not torture, during training. Neither is simulated execution, during training.
And stop calling it "waterboarding" call it what it is: simulated drowning.
We convicted other people who did it to Americans, IT IS TORTURE.

Also my friend told me it was.

AAR: America is last place we should ever bring a terrorist from whom we need critical information to save American lives!

I'm still trying to absorb that. I suppose the most disturbing part is that you think it's unthinkable. I suppose there are lots of ways to conceptualize it. But no matter how I try, all of them are bad in one way or another. One way or another it seems to me that your attitude requires a fundamental lack of faith in our judicial system.

a fundamental lack of faith in our judicial system.

Ricorun,

If they brought a terrorist here to America the ACLU would jump right on it in a heartbeat and work on behalf and in favor of the terrorist/terrorists.

That's why we don't have a judicial system anymore. That's why known Murderers get away more now than ever. That's why this Nation is in the shape its in--people have supported anti-American groups like the ACLU.

As always, the ACLU would define acts of terror as "Freedom of expression."

I have no faith in them. If we had a system of Law there would be far less crimes committed.
The olden days stand as testimony to this fact!

The ACLU is a DISGRACE to America and to the world!

Where is the Justice?

God help this country!!!

Jeremiah

Mark says:

"Whose side are the Democrats on anyway?"

Well, John McCain, Republican from AZ, says:

All I can say is that it [waterboarding] was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today.

They should know what it [waterboarding] is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.

Our enemies didn't adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every one of us -- every single one of us -- knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them."

Of course, what would John McCain know next to Bush, Giuliani, Romney, Cheney, Rush, and all of those other decorated combat heroes? I mean, he only spent 5 1/2 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp being, you know, tortured.

Amazing how all of the pseudo moral pseudo intellectuals are all for abortion yet abhor waterboarding! Ever see them complain about the 40 million abortions in the USA over the past 40 years? "Prochoice" progressives! A woman's right to choose! OK to kill 40 million unborn, with no choice in the matter, but give terrorists Geneva Convention rights even when they obviously don't qualify, and don't waterboard a terrorist! But go ahead and kill unborn babies.

SEW,

Yep!

That's the thing about Democrats--They always set the double standard--

"It's ok to murder an unborn child, yet we must let convicted murderers live."

My gosh! What are they thinking??? I mean, they act like it's the most complicating thing to figure out.

Just goes to show how much they "care" for Life.

Jeremiah

SEW and Jerimiah,
I'm against abortion and torture. You both seem to be against abortion but ok with torture. Seems to me you are the ones with the double standards.

Ricorun,

America no longer has a "judicial system".

It now a "legal system", abused by activist groups to force their agenda on America, and misused by "law giver" judges who make and change laws and the Constitution from the bench. It's a system for stalling and delaying, and imposing restrictions not intended or mandated by our laws!

It's also a "jackpot justice" system where one files a lawsuit for any reason imaginable, where plaintiffs and lawyers judge shop for sympathetic judges, and where everyone hopes to hit the "legal lottery" with a multi-million dollar or even billion dollar pay-out!

Do I have a fundamental lack of faith in our "legal" system? The way it's used and abused today? Absolutely! The whole system needs to be revised and many of the judges replaced!

And, I am totally serious when I say that America is the last place we should ever bring a terrorist from whom we need critical information to save American lives! Once the Liberals and ACLU get their hands on them, we can forget about ever getting any information from them -- even if we are only asking questions!

AAR

I was talking about pseudo moralists and psedointellectuals and you responded Casper! I'll take your word for it since you responded.

I also am against torture. As you know, waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Otherwise the moralists and intellectuals would pass a law against it.

AAR,

I really wish we could do away with and eliminate the ACLU group and these Liberals who use our Appeals system to destroy America--The damage they've done to this Nation no one knows. What a pitiful shame!

With the unwise decisions some States have made concerning Life by choosing Liberal Democrats as their Governors, they in turn ought to realize that he/she will put Liberal Democrat Judges on the bench, who in turn, make extremely unwise rulings for their State, who automatically have the Anti-Conservative-Lawyers-Union at their aid.

Time has proven one thing--If man is left to his own vices, he will knowingly inevitably choose the path of lesser resistance, and over time, that broader path he chooses leads to destruction.

That's why I think that if we're going to set a standard of hope for Decency and Morality in this Nation that we need to change the current system of things so that the President sets that standard, and that puts rules in place that each State must go by, where he demands that each State can elect Judges, but that those Judges must possess standards that are in favor of Giving-Life to the Unborn, and that schools must allow Christians to freely pray if they wish. That Creation be allowed in Science class. That Military Memorials be conducted in the manner that is Customary to our Naton; in that we give Honor and Thanks to God for the Brave men and women whom we mourn for when they selflessly sacrifice their lives for each of us, and that He is our Hope and our Refuge!

If we don't grit our teeth, buckle-down and demand that these Traditional issues be preserved, then this Nation will crumble! We've got to stop the ACLU, Liberals and the destructive course they are taking this Nation!

Jeremiah

stevo - thats NOT what we convicted Japanese soldiers for. .......

You are so freakin' ignorant.
Posted by: Kahn
---------------------------------------------------
Why do you always resort to name calling?

I would rebut your argument, but I'm sure you have already googled waterboarding/japanese/US pow's
and realized you are mistaken.

My statement stands and historical records support my statement.

I guess that makes me ignorant.

As you know, waterboarding is an interrogation technique....
Posted by: SEW
-----------------------------------------------
Like I said in my original post, if it is just an 'interrogation technique' why don't we use it on US citizens that are charged with a crime?

We could do it the second someone is arrested before they could lawyer up. If you are choking on water its pretty hard to ask for a lawyer. Think of how many crimes we could solve.

I hope America will soon wake up!

2 Chronciles 7:14

'If my people, who are called by my name, will humble theselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.'

Jeremiah

Waterboarding is hardly torture. It does not maim, cause permanent physical damage,or result in death....
Posted by Matt
----------------------------------------------------
Neither does raping women. So under that argument I guess when we capture suspected female terrorists we can line up a whole platoon and they can pull a train on on her.

Its not torture right? it doesnt cause permanent physical damage (use some ky jelly)and it certainly doesnt result in death.

Again, dont get me wrong. Im all for waterboarding suspected terrorists. I believe (from what I have read) that it is an very effective tool at getting information from someone.

Im just willing to admit that it is torture. Im not sure why all the neocons are dancing around the issue. It sounds like they are dead set against torturing terrorists.
I'm not. And that makes me an ignorant liberal?

stevo - the Japanese ALSO beat Americans and did countless other acts. You are in fact wrong.

Aaarrrroooonnnnn - "All I can say is that it [waterboarding] was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today."

Well, well, well, apparently the practice is historically and globally acceptable.

If waterboarding is what it takes to get information - and we can no longer do it. I say kill them. Don't take them prisoner. Try the ones we have for war crimes and hang them. Information, to me is their ONLY value. Take that away and feeding them is a waste of money.

As you know, waterboarding is an interrogation technique....
Posted by: SEW
-----------------------------------------------
Like I said in my original post, if it is just an 'interrogation technique' why don't we use it on US citizens that are charged with a crime?

US citizens and terrorists are two different animals. US citizens have Constitutional rights, terrorists don't.Terrorists don't even have Geneva Convention rights. Take an elementary civics class. Although the answer is self evident, yes you are an ignorant liberal. However if you feel that should be done, call your US Senator now and see if he will propose a law allowing waterboarding of US citizens charged with a crime. You will have the most luck with that if you live in Mass. or Ca.

Im just willing to admit that it is torture. Im not sure why all the neocons are dancing around the issue. It sounds like they are dead set against torturing terrorists.

NO! Stevo. It is humane, unlike the techniques Saddam Hussein used, where the captives were beaten, stoned, kicked, with broken arms, hands, legs and feet, broken ribs, run through wood chippers, cutting their bodies with knives, gouging their eyes out, and as you say mutilating the womens genitalia. Just HORRIFYING!!!!!!

Waterboarding is NOT "torture"!!!!

Jeremiah

Kahn,
So you are saying that there were no Japanese that were convicted of a war crime for waterboarding US POW's?

Waterboarding is NOT "torture"!!!!

Jeremiah
Posted by: Jeremiah
----------------------------------------------------

Neither is raping a female terrorist.

Neither is raping a female terrorist.

But WE DON'T DO THAT, STEVO!!!!

Sheeesh! You have a SICK mind. You know that??

Jeremiah

SEW,
You clearly missed my point.

A majority of neocons on here say water boarding is ok, because its NOT torture. It's just an 'interrogation technique'
That its really not that bad. That is causes minor discomfort.

If its really not that bad, and it is so effective at getting information, then why dont we use it on US citizens charged with a crime?

The difference with me: I am all for waterboarding suspected terrorists. But I know its torture.

Another thing SEW, you seem to think that waterboarding cant be applied to US citizens because of the constitution?
You are wrong.

The President has the authority to waterboard any US citizen he wants.

I think you fell asleep during Civics class or maybe you have been asleep since 9/11.

He has the full authority to strip you of your constitutional rights as a US citizen.
You really didnt know that?

But WE DON'T DO THAT, STEVO!!!!

Sheeesh! You have a SICK mind. You know that??

Jeremiah
Posted by: Jeremiah
---------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah,

According to the neocons on here waterboarding is not torture because:
"It does not maim, cause permanent physical damage,or result in death."

Am I right? If I am wrong then by all means please correct me.

I have seen the phrase repeated time again by neocons on here and by spokesmens for the administration.

Since that seems to be the definition of torture: Something that causes death or permanent physical damage.

Then it seems to me that raping a female that is suspected of being a terrorist is not torture. Right?
It's just an 'interrogation technique'

If you have a platoon pull a train on her, and she coughs up the information we need, then we should start doing it.

It doesnt cause death.
It doesnt cause permanent physical damage (use ky jelly)

Remember, suspected female terrorists do not have constitutional protections. So I dont understand your objections to it.

stevo, there was one. He did it to civilians. And he also beat them and did other things. Japan did FAR worse things than waterboading. The germ warfare experiments they did on British POW's come to mind. So does executing 10 prisoners every time one tried to escape.

But hey, why argue? I think you're wrong. But I say if its that important to you, lets just stop doing it and stop taking prisoners. AGAIN, to me their ONLY value is information. One meal costs more than the bullet it would take to get rid of them.

Every war criminal at Guantanamo should hang. Release the rest. Then, never take another one prisoner ever.

Waterboarding does not maim, cause permanent physical damage,or result in death

IT -- IS -- NOT -- TORTURE!!!

Fact.

Then it seems to me that raping a female that is suspected of being a terrorist is not torture. Right?
It's just an 'interrogation technique'

No, raping someone is NOT an interrogation technique. We don't do that type of sick Hedonistic, Socialistic Hillary Saddamite stuff as you Liberals think.

Now, as to your statement concerning the Presdient and the use of Waterboarding on American Citizens--

How could you be so stupid??? Why would we have to do that to an American citizen?? Nothing escapes the News you know, everybody knows something about somebody!!!

Furthermore, why would we not want to waterboard those overseas who are planning to kill Americans and torture us like Saddam did his people??

Last word: If ever in the event of extraordinary circumstances, that someone in the U.S. or anyone here who is outside the U.S. knows someone who is plotting mass attacks, You better HOPE we waterboard them, is all I got to say!!!

Now, Do me a favor, Stevo--Go to the beach, and take a run for it, and plunge head first into the sand!!! It will do you a whole lot of "good".

Sheeesh, you are like a coal bucket, they shovel it in you at the DailyKos, and you pour it out.

Pity.

Jeremiah

If the Senate really wants it to stop - make a law defining it as torture and make it stop. Thats how it works you know. They can classify an elephant as a fish for legal purposes if they desire.

stevocar,

Would you use interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation, loud music, or cold temperatures to get information from a terrorist if you legitimately believed that information could save your family, your children, your parents, your friends, or your town... or would you allow them all to die?

Would you use a few minutes of "waterboarding" (which makes a person believe they are drowning) to save New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Washington D.C... or would you allow those cities and the millions of Americans who live there to be destroyed and killed in a terrorist attack?

Just say: Yes, I would kill my family, millions of Americans, and permit the destruction of New York or Los Angeles rather than use those interrogation techniques on terrorists who are intent on doing just that!!!

AAR

The President has the authority to waterboard any US citizen he wants.

I think you fell asleep during Civics class or maybe you have been asleep since 9/11.

He has the full authority to strip you of your constitutional rights as a US citizen.
You really didnt know that?
by steveocar

No, I didn't know that. Did that come from the Kos Constitution or a sign you saw while protesting in San Francisco, or perhaps from your afternoon watching the View?

In 2006 all of the serving Judge Advocates General of the military services submitted written testimony in which they unanimously and unambiguously agreed that waterboarding is inhumane and illegal and would constitute a violation of international law, to include Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Recently they were joined by four retired Judge Advocates General. It's hard to believe they're all Democrats.

Ricorun,

I'm having trouble posting using TypeKey. I posed these same questions to stevocar earlier, but I had to enter them without using TypeKey and they haven't posted yet. I'll ask you the same questions...

Would you use interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation, loud music, or cold temperatures to get information from a terrorist if you legitimately believed that information could save your family, your children, your friends, or your city... or would you allow them all to die?

Would you use "waterboarding" (which makes a person believe they are drowning) to save the city of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington D.C... or would you allow those cities and millions of their citizens to be destroyed and killed in a terrorist attack?

Just say: Yes, I would kill my family, millions of Americans, and permit the destruction of New York or Los Angeles rather than use these interrogation techniques on terrorists who are intent on doing just that!!!

AAR

AAR,
What you are presenting is a false choice. You are assuming that the only way to get information from someone is through torture, but as phnx pointed out earlier on this thread: "In my military training I have seen interrogation tactics in which men have been broken without anyone laying a finger on them." In other words, there are ways of getting information without using the techniques you are advocating.

Yes there are other ways, genius. And when that doesn't work one must move on to something that does work. One of the beauties of the waterboarding technique of interrogation, without resorting to torture!

It all depends upon your definition of is, or in this example, waterboarding. Or prior to that, loud music. You clowns even state the Geneva Convention applies to non uniformed combatants, and would like to see US law apply also to these terrorists. It doesn't. If waterboarding is illegal, have your moonbat Congressmen pass the law. The AG interprets the laws. Get a clue.

And thanks to your moonbat Senators Schumer and Feinstein for caving in to reason.

Another in a long line of victories for George W Bush, Commander in Chief. And another loss for a do nothing Congress. And a victory for democracy, the American people and the rest of the world that is suppressed by fascist moonbat insanity.

Casper,

I am not presenting a false choice! Sometimes we are faced with hard choices, but that does not make them false. If an armed robber enters house, you may be faced with the choice of killing the robber or allowing yourself or family to be killed. Killing the robber may be your choice of last resort, but it may be your only choice!

From what I have read, waterboarding is used only in selected cases, and after trying other techniques. It is very effective in obtaining information... and does so very quickly when time is of the essence! Navy SEALs once used waterboarding in their counter-interrogation training, but they stopped because the trainees could not survive it without breaking. CIA officers who subjected themselves to the waterboarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.

Waterboarding is cited as the technique that got Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the prime plotter of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, to begin to talk and provide information. According to CIA sources, al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

Let's say we have used other interrogation techniques or time is very short, but we are relatively certain a terrorist has the information we need to save lives and prevent another attack like 9/11 or worse.

Would you use interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation, loud music, or cold temperatures to get information from a terrorist if you legitimately believed that information could save your family, your children, your friends, or your city... or would you allow them all to die?

Would you use "waterboarding" (which makes a person believe they are drowning) to save the city of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington D.C... or would you allow those cities and millions of their citizens to be destroyed and killed in a terrorist attack?

These aren't hard questions, or ones that aren't likely to be faced in real life. A simple yes or no will suffice!

AAR

AAR,
The moonbats would take the high moral ground and not waterboard! Never mind they feel 40,000,000 abortions OK. They will take the high road on waterboarding and let NYC or LA go.

"Yes there are other ways, genius."
Thanks for the compliment.
"And when that doesn't work one must move on to something that does work."
Can you prove it works? From what I've read a lot of people will admit to anything when being "tortured. I understand that when it was being done to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed he admitted to half the crimes committed in U.S. history, including killing Kennedy and Lincoln.

"If waterboarding is illegal, have your moonbat Congressmen pass the law."
If it's already illegal why would we need another law?
BTW, I agree my congresswoman from Wyoming is a moonbat. But she doesn't show up to congress often enough to pass any laws."

"And thanks to your moonbat Senators Schumer and Feinstein for caving in to reason."
First, neither of them is my senator. Second, I'm not a democrat. Third, You call them moonbats for agreeing with your position. Does that mean everyone that agrees with you is a moonbat?

Casper,
First, if you are a US citizen you have 100 senators. Second, I didn't say you were a democrat. Third, I didn't call them moonbats for agreeing with my position. I call them moonbats for being what they are, moonbats.

The spin stops here.

"If an armed robber enters house, you may be faced with the choice of killing the robber or allowing yourself or family to be killed. Killing the robber may be your choice of last resort, but it may be your only choice!"
I'm not sure what the connection is between defending myself against an armed intruder and torturing an unarmed prisoner. In the first case, I wouldn't have many options. In the second, there are a lot of ways to get information that our country has used for decades that do not include torture. We managed to win WW II without resorting to waterboarding, I think we can beat a few our current enemies without it.

Would you use interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation, loud music, or cold temperatures to get information from a terrorist if you legitimately believed that information could save your family, your children, your friends, or your city... or would you allow them all to die?

Would you use "waterboarding" (which makes a person believe they are drowning) to save the city of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington D.C... or would you allow those cities and millions of their citizens to be destroyed and killed in a terrorist attack?"

First, give me one example in recorded history outside of TV and the movies that torture has saved a city. I would assume that If I had enough information about a possible terrorist to pick up the people doing it, I would probably also know the location of any weapons they were planning to use.

"And thanks to your moonbat Senators Schumer and Feinstein for caving in to reason."
"First, if you are a US citizen you have 100 senators."

Then shouldn't you have said "And thanks to my moonbat Senators Schumer and Feinstein for caving in to reason."?

No. I should have said our moonbat senators.

Casper,

You're avoiding the question! Yes or no?!!!

You are the one defining those methods as "torture". I say they are valid interrogation techniques in certain situations when used as such. If they are being used to force a false confession, for someone's sadistic pleasure and amusement, or just for the sake of torture... they are NOT appropriate, and I do not support their use for such!

Now, would you use those techniques if you believed it would save your family? Your town? Your school? Washington D.C.? Hypothetically of course!

What is the maximum interrogation technique you would permit in order to protect or save your family? Washington, D.C.? A large American city of 5 or 10 million people?

Would you prohibit those whose job it is to protect you and your family from using the tools they might need? Or would you permit their use, but in limited and specific circumstances, with specific procedures, and with appropriate authorization and approvals?

AAR

AAR,
What you are presenting is a classic no win scenario. You want me to chose between two terrible possibilities. Do I follow the path of the Khmer Rouge, as well the Gestapo, and torture a fellow human for information he may or may not have, or do I allow millions of people to die? My humanity or the lives of millions. The problem is, I don't believe in the no win scenario. If I were in that position I would find another way. Either a different interrogation technique, or another source.
The thing about no win situations, is you can come up with one to justify just about anything.

I'm against abortion and torture. You both seem to be against abortion but ok with torture. Seems to me you are the ones with the double standards.

Casper,

You're talking about two totally different things.

1.Abortion is the pre-meditated Murder of an innocent little person.

2.When you say "torture" I take it that you are referring to "waterboarding" which is far from, and most definitely NOT "torture".

By definition, Torture is the practice that is used by any means, which inflicts extremely excruciating pain--such as twisting someone's arm until broken, or by using a device which causes blood-letting, or by beating the individual that leaves severe bruise marks on them--Thus, harming their physical appearance, and severely decapacitating their mental capabilities and stability of the person in question.

Now, back to my original question, why do you Democrats use the double standard?

Why do I ask? First, here's how I take Democrats and how they perport the double standard--Any person that says it's "ok" to murder for one individual--such as Abortion doctors, Sniper, and so on, but yet it's "not" ok feasible to punish that criminal by death penalty, and in some crazy Orwellian imagination cases think it's "ok" to work around the Justice system and pardon such criminals.

Where's the Justice in that?

The easier way to look at double standard would be like, say--So and So John Doe down the street is permitted to purchase gas from the local gas pump, yet other So and So Jane Doe on the other street cannot!! That's what double standard is!!

See?

Now, let's see if we can figure you out--

Would it be ok to permit Al-Qaeda to brutally rape and torture our Soldiers if they capture them like they do the people of their own race?
And then say it's "not" ok to interrogate one of the Al-qaeda terrorists who know where they are keeping our Soldiers?

Let's say we capture one of the Taliban who know where Osama Bin Laden is hiding, who is planning devastating attacks on the U.S. Is it not ok to interrogate that person??

Why is it ok for Al-qaeda to plan attacks on us, torture people, and yet we are not to be permitted to stop it in some way?

Why is it that Democrats think it's "ok" to murder little babies, and not ok to prevent those murders?

What is up with your Democrats tolerance of all things bad, and intolerance to all things good?

Jeremiah

Jeremiah,
"Casper, You're talking about two totally different things."
I agree. SEW was the one that brought abortion up.

"When you say "torture" I take it that you are referring to "waterboarding" which is far from, and most definitely NOT "torture"."

I disagree and there are a lot of experts that agree with me. Waterboarding is torture.

"Now, back to my original question, why do you Democrats use the double standard?"

First, I'm not a democrat. Second, read your own post. I'm against abortion and torture. Seems pretty consistant to me.

"Would it be ok to permit Al-Qaeda to brutally rape and torture our Soldiers if they capture them like they do the people of their own race?
And then say it's "not" ok to interrogate one of the Al-qaeda terrorists who know where they are keeping our Soldiers?

Let's say we capture one of the Taliban who know where Osama Bin Laden is hiding, who is planning devastating attacks on the U.S. Is it not ok to interrogate that person??

Why is it ok for Al-qaeda to plan attacks on us, torture people, and yet we are not to be permitted to stop it in some way?"

I'm all for interrogation and stopping Al-qaeda. What I'm against is lowering ourselves to their level. I believe we can win without becoming like our enemies.

As for your questions about the thinking of democrats, you might want to ask one of them. I don't have any more respect for them than I do the Republicans at this point.

What I'm against is lowering ourselves to their level.

Oh PLEASE!! we're not, Casper!!!

Be honest. Have you ever heard of, or seen anyone who has been subjected to waterboarding come away crippled and maimed for life?

Jeremiah

No, I didn't know that. Did that come from the Kos Constitution or a sign you saw while protesting in San Francisco, or perhaps from your afternoon watching the View?
Posted by: SEW
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SEW

I suggest you look up the provisions of the Patriot Act granting authority to the president to declare a US Citizen an 'enemy combatant'.

Upon that declaration you are stripped of your constitutional rights immediately. You do not have an option to appeal.

See: Jose Padilla. He was stripped of his constitutional rights as a US citizen for 3+ yrs

Find one other conservative that disagrees with me about the authority the president has to strip you of your constitutional rights as a US Citizen.

I am stunned that you did not know this. This is rather common knowledge and has been reported on Fox News, MSNBC, O'Reilly Factor (He did 3 segments on Jose Padilla alone), Hannity, etc.

In Jose Padilla's case he was a US Citizen arrested on US soil and had the US Constitution suspended for 3+yrs.

Why is it when you are challenged on your assertions of the protection afforded to citizens and the authority the president has to suspend those protections, instead of doing a modicum of research (ie a 15 second google search), you instantly dismiss it and claim I saw it on some liberal show?

http://www.cfr.org/publication/5312/enemy_combatants.html

Again, I think you have been asleep since 9/11.

Do some research kid.