I am seriously confused. You are outraged because a couple of gays took communion? Guess what - it happens all the time Mark. You may not like to hear it but there are many many gay catholics that are active even some of the people you go to church with every Sunday.

"I am seriously confused."

No surprise. Thats evident in every ill-formed ignorant thought you express. I'll tell you what...why don't you go to a mosque dressed as porky pig and get back to us on how that goes. Moron.

Moron.

Exactly, and here's why:

Guess what - it happens all the time Mark. You may not like to hear it but there are many many gay catholics that are active even some of the people you go to church with every Sunday.

All assertions, unless Dr. Retard--kblack--attends church with Mark. Zoot, Dr. Retard bases most of her crap on her own twisted views, and only posts links from kook sites.

Dr. Retard is a contrarian--that's all she does...

Clearly, the freaks who did this are idiot extremists who wanted attention, but to label them as representing an entire group is ridiculous. Where's your outrage when Pastor Fred Phelps pickets military funerals? Should he represent all Baptists? Of course not, because he's a whacko just like those two in the church.

This site seems to be becoming more and more of an extremist hate site instead of a place for honest political discourse.

"...the militant anti-Catholic homosexual group "Sister of Perpetual Indulgence"."

"Militant"?? Puhleeze. I'm from SF. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence can best be described as a gay comedy group who generally make fun of all forms of conformity, hierarchy, and moral superiority. While the group has local chapters in many communities, their total numbers are a few hundred at most. Their basic message is "lighten up", and "don't take yourself so damn seriously" - although they do use parody to underscore that gays have been demonized and persecuted by various religions groups throughout history, and that they continue to be the target of hate today. They are also a charity organization raising funds for AIDS research and prevention.

Nothing remotely approaching "militant" can be construed from anything they do. You may be offended by their provocative antics - fair enough. But "militant"? - oh boy, once again your fear/outrage meter is set to ultra-sensitive. Talk about drama queens.

I'm sure the Catholic Church can handle a handful of gay comedians dressed as nuns. After all, they handled Galileo, Copernicus, and Martin Luther just fine.

While you ninnies are getting into a fevered tizzy about a harmless, crossing-dressing parody group, you completely ignore the very real militancy emanating from several strident fundamentalist groups who would like nothing better than to precipitate world-wide armageddon. Those are the well-funded and twisted sickos who you should really be alarmed by - not some silly nellies dressed like Nuns.

"...if this is the sort of treatment we get in return for toleration of homosexuality, what sort of treatment can we expect if it is ever established in law that homosexual acts are the moral equivalent of heterosexual acts?"

First of all, there are probably some 30 million gay and lesbian citizens of this country (and not all of them Republican congressmen, btw!). To make general smears about them all based on the antics of a handful of parody cross-dressers is ridiculous. You might as well condemn all hetero-sexuals because you are offended by Hugh Hefner or Borat.

Because Britney Spears acts like an idiot, and Michael Vick is viciously cruel to animals, are you going to say "there goes those hetero-sexuals again - their immorality knows no bounds!"

While you are fixating on the antics of a few who have deeply offended you, you seem oblivious to the fact that 99.99% of gay and lesbian citizens quietly go about their business everyday as professionals of all stripes, shop keepers, military officers, public servants, and number of other upstanding, productive, tax-paying occupations.

No one says Catholics have to tolerate shenanigans during Holy communion. But it is not up to you or anyone else to give your "toleration" of being gay. "Toleration" is not what this is about - it's about rights. As human beings living in a country with guaranteed individual rights, gays do not seek your "toleration" of them - they merely seek to have the equality that is their birthright as American citizens.

kblack -

Try going into a synagogue dressed as a SS trooper. Would THAT be OK?

How about bringing a noose to a NAACP rally? Would THAT be OK?

Maybe dress up as JFK and go to his grave site with an inflatable Marylin Monroe glued to your crotch. Would THAT be OK?

kdolt- again, you show that you are ignorant and uninformed. Have you looked for a poll to see if the majority wants gays, especially gays who mock the religion, to attend their services. Remember majority rules.

Again you make a fool of yourself....

"Someone who dresses in a mock religious habit to attend Mass does so to make a point. If people dress in a manner clearly intended to mock what we hold sacred, they place themselves in an objective situation in which it is not appropriate for them to receive Holy Communion...."

This wasn't a gay person in regular clothes. This was a pair of people who attended services with the intent of making a political statement and disprupt (no matter how minor) the services.

Come back when you are informed (which may be never).

---
Try going into a synagogue dressed as a SS trooper. Would THAT be OK?

How about bringing a noose to a NAACP rally? Would THAT be OK?

---
I think you are completely missing the point as these would NOT AT ALL BE THE SAME. The reason - simple - Nazi's and the KKK are organizations that stand for hatred, intolerance, murder, and indeed genocide. Those groups are in themselves - inherently evil.

Gays - on the other hand - are just people with different sexual desires.

So of course it would not be the same at all and not OK. So you are saying being a NAZI and going to a synagogue is the same thing as being gay and going to a church?

See the difference

Wow, it must have been a reaaaaaallly offending provocation.

I mean, the minister actually had to think about it for a day or two before he recognised it as such.

And now you get your panties in a bunch. Please, you're just trying to whip up an artificial frenzy here. Talk about a non-event.

"Try going into a synagogue dressed as a SS trooper. Would THAT be OK? How about bringing a noose to a NAACP rally? Would THAT be OK?"

Wow. So now you are equating a few gays dressed as Nuns with Nazis and the KKK? wtf? Are you really this dim, or do are you just addicted to emotional hysteria completely divorced from reality?

Are you saying that a gay comedian dressed as a nun is every bit as offensive to a Catholic as an SS trooper is to a Jew or a Klansman is to a black person? Let me ask you this: when was the last time gays engaged in the mass murder of millions of Catholics, and when was the last time gays donned white robes and terrorized Catholics with lynching?

Throughout history, the Catholic Church has persecuted gays - not the other way around.

So the Marilyn Monroe / JFK crotch gag would be OK?

How about showing up at a Ted Kennedy Senate function costumed as a zombie/rotting corpse Mary Joe Kopechne? Would that be OK? (Would you still expect the esteemed Senator to shake your hand?)

How about wearing the inflatable doll gag dressed as Mohamed at a Mosque? Would THAT be OK?

Since you are setting the standards at which WE should be offended.....

aaaaron - just trying to define the rules. OK?

Oh, and Aaron. The Klan was and is anti-catholic. Look it up.

That's almost as bad as dropping a Koran in the toilet.

"Since you are setting the standards at which WE should be offended....."

Uh, no, Khan, I'm specifically NOT setting the standards at which YOU should be offended. If you'd bothered to actually read what I wrote, I said that if Catholics are offended by a gay guy dressed as a Nun taking communion (as I would be if I were a beleiving Catholic), they should NOT tolerate that, and have every right to refuse such communion.

In case you missed it, my post takes issue with characterizing the Sisters of PI as "militant", with using the antics of the Sisters as an emotionally charged excuse to deny millions of gay citizens equal rights, and with Mark's attempt to conflate rights with "tolerating" gays.

Aaron,

You don't understand because you are ignorant of Christianity - especially, it would seem, of Catholicism. The sacrament isn't just a piece of bread...and the people who are in the religious life aren't just wearing odd clothing. For someone who has hatred and contempt for Catholicism to dress up as a Catholic religious and then dare to take communion is a horrid offense.

The "Sisters" aren't just telling us to "lighten up" - they are telling us that the central act of our faith is worthy of contempt. That, to put it mildly, is an insult which would have once upon a time been met with a challenge to a duel...but we Christians don't do that anymore, because we've learned over time to be tolerant. Be nice if the "Sister" learned the same thing.

i think aarontime has it right on.

Of course the other things which you mention - kennedy gags, dolls at mosques - are offensive and in bad taste as well. However, what Mark is trying to do is to say "oh you want rights - well you have to play by our rules , act in a manner which we want you to"

yes - all of these would be offensive - but if you showed up at a Kennedy event dressed as some dead girl from the 60's I would still afford you all the rights of everyone else. Mark is simply looking for excuses to justify his intolerance.

kblack,

The "Sisters" also stand for hatred and intolerance...they hate Christianity and are intolerant of Christians. If they weren't so, they would not have done what they did. By its fruit shall the tree be known - and the fruit of the "Sisters" is an insult; lets you know what they are about.

kblack,

No, not by "our" rules, but by "the" rules...if you are demanding tolerance and respect on the basis of your fundamental humanity, then you owe such to everyone else...on the other hand, if you are demanding special consideration for a particular act you like to do, then that is another matter entirely.

Of course the atheist Liberals wouldn't understand...

They would condone and support it!

AAR

aaaron - well I was actually speaking to KB. But OK.

Note. I never mentioned the Klan - just showing up with a knot of rope. So square knots and lashings would be OK? Just not a noose knot. Why? Maybe because of the symbolic value it has? Obviously.

But would it be hateful to show up with a noose at a cowboy shooting association competition? No. Why not? Because they would not see it as a symbol of hatred. So... who decides? A noose is a symbol of hatred in one context and not in another. The audience decides.

Robert, is poking fun at the prophet and the Koran the same? I've got a feeling actually doing either could get you killed. What if I was protesting Muslim mistreatment of women and gays? Wouldn't that make it be OK? Talk about discrimination? The Muslims d-i-s-c-r-i-m-i-n-a-t-e in ways you wouldn't believe. So, like the transvestite nuns - would that make it be OK? Do YOU decide if MY outrage should be greater or lesser than the Muslims? How totalitarian of you. Thanks.

But also to be clear, the JFK and Ted Kennedy stunts would be OK, right? I'm actually thinking of doing the Ted Kennedy one.

This site seems to be becoming more and more of an extremist hate site instead of a place for honest political discourse.

Dang right it is! We're trying to piss off enough of you morons so you'll leave. Now begone with your bad self!!!

That's almost as bad as dropping a Koran in the toilet.

Robert, before you make a total ass of yourself--too late--let me inform you that this was a lie, later retracted, by the same Newsweek editor who originated the lie.

But that doesn't matter, does it? It's already a talking point to you kooks, lie or not...

Gawd, I love this site. I could describe radical Lefties till the cows come home and never get as vivid an illustration of their twisted views on life as those provided by kblack and errortime and frenchie. I would be accused, if not of actually inventing things designed to make Libs look bad, at least of exaggeration. But using their own words makes it clear that we simply can't make stuff like this up.

A priest is caught up in the serving of the Mass and in the love and peace of the moment, and trusts that those who come to Communion will do so in the spirit of the moment, to show their love for God and their desire to be part of Him. He is TOLERANT, you see, not at all judgmental, so he does not immediately assign any negative label to people just because they look different, perhaps even eccentric.

And THIS is jumped on by the likes of frenchie to somehow "prove" that the outrage at the insult to Catholocism, and Christianity in general, was feigned, ginned up out of nothing, because the priest did not make a value judgment based on the eccentric appearance of the communicants.

What a crock!!

Error, of course, has to try to confabulate homosexuality with hate-driven ridicule of a cherished institution by extremists who have no concept of good taste or respect.

Many thanks, error, for yet another example of the simple-mindedness of the radical Left.

He tries to make being offended by ridicule of ones' religion the same thing as being anti-gay. And he dismisses the outrage so blithely: "...ninnies are getting into a fevered tizzy about a harmless, crossing-dressing parody group.."

Talk about being totally clueless!!!!

First, of course, is the mandatory ad hominem attack---people who don't appreciate having their religion treated with such disrespect are, to error, "ninnies" and of course he has to reduce the insult to one of 'harmless, cross-dressing, parody.

PARODY?? Do you even OWN a dictionary, error?

Errortime and his ilk are perfect examples of why the moderate, rational, decent, thoughtful, often religious, caring Democrats who make up the bulk of that party are becoming more and more disgusted by, turned off by, and even scared of, the radical, tasteless, brutal Socialists who are trying to take over their party.

Mark is completely right when he characterizes this act by saying: "The "Sisters" aren't just telling us to "lighten up" - they are telling us that the central act of our faith is worthy of contempt."

If indie is referring to the hate-driven swill posted by blackie and frenchie and error, when he complains that this has become an "extremist hate site", he has a point. We have tried and tried to engage in serious nad respsectful political discourse on this site, only to be polluted by the name-calling, hateful, lying accusations of our Lefty contributors, and their determination to shout down any opinon ever posted by any conservative on any topic at any time.

It would not be a denial of Left values to agree that there is something essentially wrong with entering a place of worship with the goal of ridiculing that worship and insulting those who are there because of their deeply held beliefs. But these people simply cannot do that. They are so far Left, and so deeply invested in their hatred of religion, in their loathing of conservatives, that having a conservative post an objection to what is really an attack on his religion MUST be met with a defense of that attack.

It's sad, it's true, and it's what is going to be the death of radical Leftism in this country.

Does anyone remember how vicious the libs reacted to the Purple Heart bandaids at the Republican convention???

ANYONE (gay or straight) dressing up as a member of the clergy in a MOCKING manner is offensive and should not receive the sacrement. That was the point of the letter from the Archbishop.

But I love the way the libs here, especially the uniformed kdolt, bending over backwards to standup for these "guys" and any excuse to bash any form of Christianity.

These people are truly despicable.

You know, the more I think about it a zombie Mary Joe showing up at every Kennedy public event would be pretty damn funny.

I'm truly curious what the members of the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence" thought they were accomplishing by doing this. How does one earn respect for doing something that is so unrespectful themselves? What they did was wrong, an frankly they should be the ones apologizing rather that the Archbishop.

sorry, should have been "and frankly"

"You know, the more I think about it a zombie Mary Joe showing up at every Kennedy public event would be pretty damn funny."

I'm assuming that you aren't considering dressing up yourself. Although I do find the idea of a cross dressing, zombie, exmarine pretty amusing.

I respect the Catholics for their consistency, even if I don't agree with some of their views. They are against abortion, against the death penalty, against the war in Iraq (and war in general), they are simply against killing. But Noonan, where do you fit in with this? Are you more of a pick-and-choose Catholic?

And P.S., as another writer said, the "Sisters" are hardly worth you getting in such a tizzy, but they'd be glad to hear you're so worked up. And by the way back in the 80s some of the Sisters split off into a devout religious group after wanting something more than street antics. They were some of the most honestly religious people I'd ever known. Persecuted people often see that Christianity speaks directly to them, even though it has been largely co-opted by the "Pharoahs".

And I love this last line: "We'll put up with a lot - we're commanded to, after all - but there is a limit." You guys always have the threat, sometimes veiled, sometimes not. We get it. Your "Christianity" has a limit, and if other Americans don't toe the line with your beliefs, well, you're not responsible for what happens...

If the founding fathers knew what you guys are doing to America in their name, they'd never stop throwing up.

jayhay,
There is a big difference between someone being upset because his beliefs are being disrespected and someone who is trying to shove his belief system down another person's throat. Mark has a right to be upset by this incident. At no point did he suggest that the people who did it, or anyone else for that matter, should be forced to become Christians.

Mark - you have every right to be offended by the action thats not the issue. First of all - clearly they are not anti-Christian. They are responding to the extensive amount of bigotry, hatred, and persecution the Church has shown them historically and indeed to the present. What you are right about - is that it is an offensive action - what you are dead wrong about is the attempt to mix offensive actions with the fundamental rights that they are fighting for - right of employment, right of non-discrimination, and yes the right to marry.

"At Communion time, toward the end of the line, two strangely dressed persons came to receive Communion. As I recall one of them wore a large flowered hat or garland. I did not recognize either of them as wearing mock religious garb."...

Outspoken Catholic Archbishop Raymond Burke Says He'd Deny Rudy Giuliani Communion

I saw Rudy dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and I thought he looked okay...

"they are telling us that the central act of our faith is worthy of contempt. That, to put it mildly, is an insult which would have once upon a time been met with a challenge to a duel...but we Christians don't do that anymore, because we've learned over time to be tolerant."

Uh, no, Mark. There was never a time through all of Christianity where a duel would have been fought over an insult. There is a "turn the other cheek" thing that sort of ruled it out.

Unless you were the Catholic Church in it's heyday, when you could kill someone for lesser insults by just calling it heresy, blasphemy and all that rot.

Ah, those were the days...

BTW, you say you are "tolerant" like you have a choice. The Church over and over again shows itself to be as tolerant as the law demands, no more, no less, unless it involves crimes committed by it's own clergy. Then it seems to show incredible tolerance and forgiveness.

Jesus didn't care one wit about homosexuals. They were just as prevalent in his day as ours, and he never spoke one single word about them, pro or con. Not a word. He did condemn divorce harshly, though, but that doesn't seem to mean much to American Catholics. It's all in that book most Christians have yet to read cover to cover called "The Bible." Or if they have read it, they seem to edit out the parts they don't like.

Jayhay,

You should learn a bit more about Catholicism before you comment on it - we're not against the war, as a group. Some Catholics oppose it, some approve of it, it is a matter of personal conscience. The priest of my parish disagrees with it, I don't - but there is no command from Authority to oppose or favor the war.

When I say "there is a limit", I am merely stating basic fact - we will be pushed so far, and no further. What I don't see is why anyone should be pushing us - no one is forced to be Catholic, and if you are that upset at the words we say, then I call you a coward - and suggest that kneeling before your Creator and begging pardon for your sins will be the first step towards obtaining some courage.

Congressive,

Tolerance is inherent in the Christian Church; has been from the beginning. You on the left will complain, say, about the Crusades...but they were a counter-attack launched after four centuries of unprovoked attacks by Islam on Christendom. YOu on the left - those of you with a modicum of knowledge of history - might complain about the suppression of the Albigensian Heresy...but that only happened after more than a century of attempts to reconcile and only when a set of men, bent on plunder, took up the cause of the heretics in armed opposition to the properly constituted authorities.

There's more to the story than your sophomoric, two-dimensional view of things.

kblack,

I don't recall much persecution by the Church of men who dressed up as women...such a thing being a rather novel item in our society.

....the militant anti-Catholic homosexual group "Sister of Perpetual Indulgence"

Mark, that online Catholic news website needs to check it's facts. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is NOT a militant group.

They are social activists, and most of the Orders are non-profit charity organizations within their countries, raising money for AIDS and other charities and community service organizations, helping lead the campaign for safer sex and harm reduction,[4] performing modern ritual and educating on various human rights issues and against hate crimes.

Maybe that Catholic rag you linked should do a little more research into a story like this before they make-up some random bulls**t claim like this.

Oh. The liberal argument is that its OK to disrespect the Catholics... because they DESERVE it. I forgot. Sorry, my fault.

I forgot that ANTHING a liberal does is OK. ANYTHING or ANYONE a liberal attacks DESERVES to be attacked. What a snug little universe you live in.

Lies about O'Reilly? Its OK, he deserves it.

Lies about Rush? Its OK, he deserves it.

Mock the Catholics? Its OK, they deserve it.

Attack the Boy Scouts? Its OK, they deserve it.

Attack the military? Its OK, they deserve it.

----------------

Oh, and Casper I probably couldn't be personally at every event. Maybe an organization? The Society of Zombie dead wet Mary Joe's? Maybe an organization of people dressed as Monica Lewinski with big cigars could show up at every Clinton event?

Jonathan,

Beg pardon? But I've known of the "Sisters" for more than 20 years and while they sometimes provide a pittance for charity, their primary purpose is the satisfaction of their lusts, and insulting Christianity in general, Catholicism in particular. These poor people are really in a bad way - so sunk into un-natural vice that they take pride in competing for who can go the lowest.

To call them "militant" is just a means of conveying the depths of their depravity and bigotry.

Mark

If this group is so bad, surely we do not have to take your word for it?
You must have examples of past instances of lewd or disrespectful behaviour from them that you can link to?

Mark,

You are right to be offended by this incident. To actually enter and disrupt a Catholic church service with this sort of mockery shows a shameful level of disrespect for the beliefs of others.

I do however, agree with the others who've said that the disrespectful actions of these clowns are not representative of the entire gay community. Nor should this be construed as some kind of tactic of the gay rights movement, as you try to suggest.

Mark, the Vatican has been clearly against this war since before it began, and after:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1629616.ece

And one of the most egregious mistakes you make on this site is assuming and assigning the beliefs of others - you know nothing about me, and yet you tell me what do in relation to my God. Trust me, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. And since when I am not at my own church I attend services at my wife's Catholic church, I have three Presbyterian ministers in my immediate family, my wife's father pursued the Jesuit priesthood and her mother was a nun until they found that was not their calling, they married and attend services daily. So I do in fact know a bit about it. The Catholic church clearly opposes all killing, including this war.

Just a reminder, say what YOU think, but stop saying what liberals think, because you do not understand.

jayhay - and yet, liberal posters here attack the church for being evil and hateful and they justify this attack.

So - you agree with us that this disruption by the sisters of insanity was unjustified and bad? And that liberal attacks on the chuch (here and elsewhere) are unjustified?

Watch out! Mark has a limit and after that, he's not going to take it anymore!

What are you going to do Mark? Stomp your feet and hold your breath till your face turns blue? Take up arms?

How 'bout we make a deal... You continue to think that I'll burn in a pit of fire for all eternity, and I'll continue to think you're a superstitious fool.

Does my proposition make you mad?

Forgive me!

I haven't seen liberal posters saying the church is evil and hateful, and if someone did and you take that as the Democratic platform, you'll be even more disconnected from the reality in this country than you appear to be.

My main complaints about degradation of Christianity are regarding actions on the right - using Jesus or God to support their intolerance and prejudice. That bothers me far more deeply than someone wearing the wrong clothes to receive communion.

The right often uses God to validate their views, views that I find are often anti-Christian in my book. That's my opinion. Harassment of immigrants, denying the civil rights of gays, lack of political support for programs that aid the poor, it goes on and on. And then supporting a war in Iraq that comes down heavily on the backs of the poor in that country. God made it pretty simple, "Thou shalt not kill". He used simple language, leaving no room for confusion. But still people will say, "Oh but he didn't mean we shouldn't fight a JUST war!" It always gets parsed to allow the particular killing at hand. But all killing, even if you decide it must be done for your needs, is an insult to God. That still may be the choice you make, but to pretend that God supports it, is rooting for America over other countries, is misunderstanding a simple, primary point of Christianity.

Apologist blackie says "They are responding to the extensive amount of bigotry, hatred, and persecution the Church has shown them historically and indeed to the present..."

Bigotry. Hatred. Persecution. Extensive, you know, on all three counts.

As a Catholic, I have never, ever, EVER, encountered any Catholic statement or action which could possibly be shoehorned into any of those categories. I was taught to forgive those who sin, and while someone who does not believe in the Bible might take offense at the word "sin", forgiveness is hardly BIGOTRY. HATRED. PERSECUTION.

I think kblack is doing his/her little trick again, of distoring facts to make his/her position seem stronger. But what's a little lie/distortion in the furtherance of a good rant?

The absolute kindest thing that can be said about these morons who chose to show such contempt for the Catholic Church is that they are tasteless and low class. It would require a Dem Crystal Ball to look into their hearts and minds to see if they were malicious, but we know, from their actions, they were stupid and disrespectful and showing extremely bad taste and judgement.

Which must be why blackie finds it necessary to make excuses for them, even to the point of inventing BIGOTRY. HATRED. PERSECUTION.

God made it pretty simple, "Thou shalt not kill--jayhay

Yep. You bet He did, Jayhay. However, I think that's what we're trying to convey to the people in the Middle East!!!

Should Muslim Jihadists have the right to kill us while we sit around and WATCH THEM???
Should Muslim Jihadists be allowed to continue to Murder others of their OWN RACE???

I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT GOD WE HAVE US TO DO!!!!!!

Did you ever stop and think--Hey, the reason we're fighting is to stop THEM from KILLING/MURDERING other people?

WE'RE TELLING THEM TO S-T-O-P I-T!!!!!! WHICH IS THE CHRISTIAN THING TO DO!!!!!

GEEEEZ!!! You IDIOT LEFT-WINGERS!!!! IDIOTS!!!!

Jeremiah