markfucious:
nice thought....really....i would agree in theory
you'd want to transfer manufacturing to india, the problem is their technology is pretty crude compared to china.
and then try and ramp up our dependence on taiwan even more than now, and hope we don't go to war over that alone.
the real problem with your theory? the current administration has sold our financial soul to the chinese. they own alot of our debt. so whether you want to boycot or not.....doesn't really matter.

As it turns out, I'm growing more hostile to China all the time - not hating, but hostile

Let me trot out my old Cold War attitude, resulting from my ancestral homelands being behind the Iron Curtain: Love the country, hate the government.

While I support your want to boycott China, I find it somewhat troubling that your main reason is the death of one man. Don't get me wrong, religious oppression is a horrible thing, and by that standard we should boycott some other countries (Saudi Arabia comes to mind). I'm surprised that, with the tainted goods they have sent to us, unfair economic practices, and implied threats to our currency and economic well-being, you choose the death of this priest as the tipping point.

That being said, I've been trying to stop buying things that are manufactured in China (I've done pretty well the last couple weeks), but the extent to which Chinese products permeate our markets makes that difficult.

Mark is right. They are DFCs* through and through.

* - Dirty F**kin' Communists!

mark - while i think rana lays it down a bit more succinctly for me, we are in agreement on this issue.

I'm ready. I've been ready.

Basically we have created our own future enemy, and we continue to fuel their growth, abilities, capabilities, and power while at the same time weakening or eliminating our own.

We need more that a boycott though. It's time we begin a major national effort to revitalize manufacturing and industry in America to make it competitive with the rest of the world. That means, among other things: reducing labor costs, further increasing productivity, more automation, tax reductions and incentives, reducing lawsuits, rcontrolling healthcare costs (which contribute to higher labor costs), reducing restrictive legislation, and re-establishing a more business friendly environment in this country.

If we aren't willing to do those things now to benefit America, before we reach a crisis, then "Buy More Chinese" until we have no choice!

Those legal "guest workers" (not an amnesty program) could help, as well as forcing more of the people receiving welfare and government handouts and assistance to earn their own way!

AAR

"unfair economic practices, and implied threats to our currency and economic well-being" - Rana Quijotesca

Running big trade deficits isn't bad for us. The Chinese aren't just racking up huge IOUs. When the Chinese sell us stuff, they then use most of those dollars to re-invest into America. The dollars then go into buying American land, labor and capitol, which goes back to Americans. They do make a return on investment, but we do ship some stuff to China. As long as our relatively free markets make us a financial intermediary to the world, we can run perpetual large trade deficits and it's even a good thing.

"It's time we begin a major national effort to revitalize manufacturing and industry in America to make it competitive with the rest of the world." - AAR

We do make over 25% of the worlds manufacturing with less than 5% of it's population. We also have a pretty free market, when consumers start demanding more manufacturing goods and less services, the service industry will shrink and manufacturing will grow. Although most of the things you mentioned wouldn't really change the ratio of services/manufacturing, it's a pretty socialist concept that the consumers given free choice aren't choosing enough manufacturing so that we need to use government force to somehow make them choose more.

There are times when looking at what a government has done to its people, especially those that disent, should cause some strong reaction. The death of a Catholic Bishop is just one more or many. How many of the people who were in Tianamen Square paid a high price? How many in Tibet? I have felt that China should have been quaranteened(?) a long time ago. Blocking their exports to us, not exporting to them, restricting their ability to spend money here (government, government controlled companies, red army controlled companies).

It won't happen, because to many will say that the only way to change the Chinese government is to change the situation of the Chinese people.

robert,
Are you sure you're not me?
Bane

"It is a mystery to me why... it is regarded as a sign of (Chinese) strength and American weakness that the (Chinese) find it more attractive to invest in the U.S. than (China). Surely it is precisely the reverse - a sign of U.S. strength and (Chinese) weakness."
Milton Friedman

Robert-

What I was referencing was the fact that Chinese currency's value is not determined by free market forces like ours and most other currencies are. They keep their currency artificially undervalued in order to keep production costs at an artificially low level. There were also rumors that, if the US tried to make the Chinese revalue their currency, they would sell off a large amount of our currency in their reserves, which would lead to the value of our currency to free-fall. With the extent that we trade with other nations... that would suck for us.

robert,

So you are opposed to a stronger, more independent, and self sufficient America with a larger and stronger economy?

What part is "government force to somehow make them choose more"?

Reduced taxes? Reduced restrictions? Reduced lawsuits and reduced healthcare costs? More American jobs? Americans making and buying American goods contributing to American workers and an American economy... and an American military? Energy self sufficiency?

I didn't say anything about socialism!!!

AAR

Rana,
If their currency is artificially held low, which it is, it costs them more to invest in our economy, not less. And if they dump the securities and debts they hold, China, not the US would be the big loser. Devalued US instruments would be snatched up by investors worldwide while China would take a bath on the exchange. Meanwhile, the instruments would pay off at face value when they matured; just like we planned.

"And then another point I've made for some time is the Chinese are the second-largest holder of U.S. Treasuries, but what the Chinese hold in treasuries is less than one day's trading volume in treasuries. We have a broad, liquid market." Henry M. Paulson Jr.

"If China were to execute the so-called nuclear option, by dumping U.S. currency and lowering the value of the dollar, it would hurt its own pocketbook because it is such a large investor. 'There would be turmoil in the financial markets,' said Menzie D. Chinn, professor of economics at the University of Wisconsin. 'It's not really a credible threat.'"

AAR,
I fully agree with your assessment vis-à-vis reducing/eliminating restrictions to our economic engine. But, I’m not sure encouraging an increase in manufacturing is the answer. Our economy isn’t limited to archaic manpower run industry; we can encourage (through those things you’ve suggested sans automation) other industry to flourish; service and intellectual property industries; digital and automation industries.

China is the world’s leading exporter of mass produced art. I don’t think we should be competing in industries where they have a natural, albeit primitive advantage.

I also see a “Don’t Buy China" approach as a secondary boycott which ends up hurting our own economy; we have a symbiotic relationship that can move China in our direction; or adversarial that moves The US in the democrats … uh, in China’s direction.

Rana,

Oh, the death of this one Bishop isn't the reason I feel as I do...it is more of a straw that broke the camel's back. I've just had it with the Chinese government - their corruption, their support for anti-American actions, their support for thuggery around the globe, their oppression of their own people, their nauseating hypocrisy about national self-determination...just had it with them.

Now, as to how we go about doing it - slowly. Bit by bit we buy back our securities and bit by bit we make it ever easier for India and other free nations to trade with us and ever more difficult for China to do the same. It would be about a 5-10 year process, with plenty of time for American markets to adjust to the change (why screw up our own economy, right?).

If China ever becomes free, then we can trade with them...until then, the slaves of China have my best wishes, but the government of China will not benefit from American prosperity.

"the government of China will not benefit from American prosperity."

nor will the Chinese people; no one has ever been starved into capitalism.

Dasein: China is the world’s leading exporter of mass produced art. I don’t think we should be competing in industries where they have a natural, albeit primitive advantage.

Are you saying my prized black felt painting of dogs playing poker is worthless? The guy I got it from down in Tijuana assured me it was an original. I'm sure he was right, cuz he looked so honest. I got the painting (in the original frame even!), along with a pair of genuine alligator skin sandals, AND a genuine Rolexx watch for 20 bucks. He wanted $35, but I'm a tuff negosheator. Who says you can't catch a deal in Tijuana!

the problem is their technology is pretty crude compared to china.

Yes, squiggy--India probably still uses berries to make their paint and dyes, while China uses, uh, lead.

And technology-wise? We have some of the most technologically advanced factories in the world, while China's "technology" is, uh, slave labor.

Unless you factor in the technology Clinton sold 'em...

Mark

I 100% agree with boycotting China for it's human rights issues.

Wow, left and right found common ground.

They spy on us like crazy. Russia, China, and Israel all target us. They want military, intelligence, and technology information. Did anyone see the news story this week about the Chinese hacking Pentagon computers. Friends told me to watch for it. There will be more in the coming weeks. They are at war with us as far as the cyber world is concerned.

Bye bye, WalMart.

I'll be in Mumbai and Delhi for a few days in December, and I guarantee you they won't let me drive down manufacturing prices by bludgeoning the population into virtual slavery like China would. They do end-run patent laws in India, though, to make really cheap drugs that I think all Americans should be able to buy directly, just to help level the playing field between their call center employees and ours.

Even with Bush in attendance, you're not watching the Olympics? George will be very disappointed. He and his best pal Hu will be snuggling in the sky box. Haven't you heard?

Bush accepts Chinese president's invitation to attend Beijing Olympics

Why does Bush hate America?

Wow, does this mean I need to cancel my new iPod?

congressive,

President Bush is committed to the policy of engagement with China - it is a policy I used to support. I don't expect everyone to move along on issues exactly as I do.

Dasein,

True, but I don't think that engagement will work - the Chinese population (perhaps for cultural reasons) seems too supine for there to be any real demand for reforms coming from below...Tienamen Square was one bright moment of Chinese people actually striking a mass blow for liberty...and I think the ruthless crushing of that effort (its all hushed up, but probably many thousands were butchered) has convinced most Chinese that it is better to submit.

In engagement, all we seem to be doing is building up an enemy who thinks he can be strong enough to beat us.

I do agree with you in some points about boycotting China. It would, however, destroy Wal-Mart. In addition, I hope that you are buying your kids some Japanese video games or American made cars for christmas, being that all toys are made in China.

Bane,

China holds about $1.5 trillion in US funds and securities, I believe. Since Bush took office, the dollar has devalued 35% against most major world currencies, except the Yen because of the carry trade. Don't you think that if China dumps its US currency and securities, there is at least the possibility that other central banks would follow suit, hence crashing the dollar. The Euro has hit an all time high of almost 140. If the US ever loses the Petro Dollar, we will be in a world of hurt. I don't always agree with you, but I respect your opinions.

BTW, since Bush has taken office, 3 million American manufacturing jobs have been lost. However, don't worry they were replaced with service jobs i.e. restaurant workers and hospital workers (not doctors or nurses). Kinda makes it hard to "Buy American" doesn't it. Oh, and those August economic numbers, not looking so hot. There's a storm a brewing. Don't buy into all this soft landing BS. It's going to hurt for a lot of people.

Peace, Gaijin

Lets see Congressive:

1. China, it is believed stole the secrets to the neutron bomb with the help of a Chinese spy at Los Alamos.
2. "In 2005 and 2006, the Department of Defense's annual report on China's military forces included a detailed table of China's ballistic missiles. The table suggested that China had 250-296 launchers with 793-916 missiles of seven types. Of these, approximately 105 are thought to be armed with nuclear warheads."
5. 150 nuke bombs

I can certainly see why the president should insult them and stay away from the Worlds sports event. Yep.

I would love to boycott China, as their government disgusts me.

However, it is just very hard to do so. I have a daughter and most toys are made there.

If I want to buy souvenirs from Alaska where we are stationed, they are made in China. Even if I want to buy Air Force souvenirs or our base souvenirs, they are all made in China.

It just seems impossible to boycott them....and I hate that.

Hu said: "You no come to my big show, I bomb you into stone age!"

Bush responds: "He he, I'll be there. Hey, can you get me a brain transplant while I'm there?"

Hu responds: "Oh sure. We got plenty brains on death row to 'donate' (winky winky). One size fits all!"

Bush responds: "Great! What was your name again?"

Hu: "Hu."

Bush: "You. What's your name again?"

Hu: "Hu."

Bush: "You. I'm asking you what's your name!"

Hu: "Oh boy, you need transplant chop chop"

Gaijin,

Do you know any actual facts about the United States of America?

There are 146 million people employed in the United States.

We have 8 million construction workers.

We have 14 million manufacturing workers.

We have 7.5 million technical workers (that would be computer geeks, etc).

We have 18 million professional workers.

We have 10 million food service workers.

Starting to get a picture of a highly diversified economy?

We produce 7.6 million barrels of oil per day.

We export $640 billion dollars worth of manufactured goods each year - the United States is the largest exporter in the world.

We produce about 100 million tons of steel annually.

Housing slump? We'll still build about two million homes this year.

Gaijin, it is really hard to describe the US economy - to think that it is in trouble is to simply not understand how it works. It is vast - vast beyond the comprehension of anyone who won't work in superlatives. Our poor are better off than Europe's middle class - so when we say that 12% of Americans are "poor", what we mean is that they are rich compared to 5 billion other people; there are literal billions of people who would swap places with the poorest Americans on almost any terms.

We're slopping over with wealth and capacity here in the United States - I'm just a regular guy, and I live in a 2,200 sq foot house with hardwood floors, granite counter tops, four televisions, five computers, five land line telephones, five cell phones, four automobiles, a jacuzzi, central air/heat, top line stainless steel appliances, custom made blinds and window treatments, automated sprinkler system so His Highness doesn't have to get off his duff to water everything, automatic garage door opener because its waaaay too much trouble to open that thing up manually, thousands of dollars annually available to piss away on pointless things...I don't work too hard and I'm under no great stress, other than the idiot stress I place on myself.

I know that in your heart of hearts you wish the United States ill - that we will be brought down a peg or two and be "taught a lesson"...well, chum, the only people who can teach us is ourselves...we might screw things up...but, then again, we'll also set them to rights again, because we're just like that, as a people.

DL-

Finance 101... what happens when there is a sell off in any market?

Mark-

The new economic numbers were mixed at best. There was a rise in defaults and foreclosures, a large decrease in the number of new homes sold, but, and I think this is amazing, American workers were recently named the most productive in the world.

I don't want to make a normative claim, but it is definitely a mixed bag.

P.S- With this whole sub-prime thing... I feel a tremendous sense of an "I told you so" coming on... I knew that the growth caused by easy money (sub-prime lending and low interest rates) wasn't sustainable a while ago. Unfortunately, I was proven correct, as evidenced by the current issue with the sub-prime market... Who thought that people with bad credit would have problems paying back money??

Rana, undervalued Chinese currency is good for both us and China, the relationship is like China sending us free stuff so that we can tell them how to invest. The amount of China's economy from US assets is huge % compared to our % of imports/exports to US economy, by re-evaluating their currency they do have the potential to hurt us a little(and only really investors holding similiar assets), but they hurt themselves far more at the same time. Also US assets are demanded all around the world, they have plenty of marginal buyers, the price may fall a little but it wouldn't plumment.

"So you are opposed to a stronger, more independent, and self sufficient America with a larger and stronger economy?" - AAR

How is cutting yourself off from the option to buy something going to make your economy stronger? Go cut yourself off from your grocery store, you'll definitely see your self sufficiency rise, you'll definitely see your "problem" of surplus labor disapear, but I'm not sure you'll see your economic situation improve.

The US manufactures fancy stuff like biotech and semiconductors. China manufactures plastic junk. If you cut yourself off from China's plastic junk you would move some of the economy away from high-tech manufacturing and make more assembly line plastic junk. The net result would be less fancy manufactured goods and less plastic junk for American consumption.

"What part is "government force to somehow make them choose more"? Reduced taxes? Reduced restrictions? Reduced lawsuits and reduced healthcare costs? More American jobs? Americans making and buying American goods contributing to American workers and an American economy... and an American military? Energy self sufficiency? I didn't say anything about socialism!!!" - AAR

Reducing taxes or reducing regulations uniformly in the economy isn't socialist. But any kind of tax/regulation structure that promotes a sector like manufacturing, or energy, above others, is using more government force on the other sectors than on the government's "chosen" sectors. This is a concept of socialism.

"Energy self sufficiency?" - AAR
Whenever I hear this it makes me want to cry.

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance." - Murry Rothbard

It’s hard for me to add to robert’s assessments; but lack of something substantial to add never stopped me before …

I would reiterate Rana, that sell off of any commodity does indeed cause chaos with that commodity. But, here’s the important part, China is the second largest holder of US currency, to whom would they sell? Dumping currency (and this is for you too, Gaijin) in an effort to devalue the currency would presuppose that the dump-er has something to gain by the devaluing of that currency. China and Japan (China’s number one trading partner, btw) would be hurt most by this option. As Paulson said, the US could suspend treasury trading for one day; wait out the market ripples for one week, and we’d still have buyers for our notes and securities at our asking price.

I’ll also point out, Gaijin that service industries also include my particular area of expertise; accounting, financial, & managerial. My wife (the lawyer) is also in a “service” industry, as are currency speculators (money changers), investment bankers, import/export entrepreneurs, and politicians. Some of the biggest gains in the employment in the US since 2003 have been in the accounting, finance and managerial occupations. Wanna make some real money? Try counting other people’s money for a living.

Mark,

AFWife has pointed out the major fly in the boycott China ointment: specifically that you and I and perhaps Ricorun have the option of sustaining a boycott because we can. From your description of your standard of living, I deduce that you don’t purchase clothing from Wal-Mart, or paintings of dogs playing poker on black velvet from street vendors in Tijuana. A large number of consumers in the US are offered products of reasonable value that originate in China; the choice for many is buy Chinese or do without.

robert
I don’t believe AAR is advocating Government intervention in favor of any private sector industry; I believe he’s saying that if left to their own invention, manufacturing would flourish; government intervention is suppressing manufacturing; the opposite of that is free market not socialism.

keefer,
OT, Leather in India is cured leather in cow urine. That’s why I never buy shoes made in India.

robert-

Actually, socialism is an economic system where goods and services are provided by the government (that is to say that income and material are distributed by non-market mechanisms). It has bery little to do with taxing private industry.

DL-

They could sell to anyone who wants to buy cheaper US currency and have leverage of the US economy... various oil-rich arab states, russia, european countries, etc. While China's growth would be much smaller after such an act, they could be getting much higher prices for their products in America (due to the higher position the Yuan would have against the USD). Whether or not that would outweigh the drop in consumption in the US due to higher prices is unclear and depends on the relative elasticities of various products. So... it would hurt us... but the extent to which it would hurt them would probably be less.

Dasein: OT, Leather in India is cured leather in cow urine. That’s why I never buy shoes made in India.

Oh great. NOW you tell me!

I guess that explains why my dog Sirocco likes to roll around on them.

"due to the higher position the Yuan would have against the USD"

Rana?
Think about what you're saying! If that was the effect they were looking for, then why not just raise the value of the Yuan like we told them to do in the first place??

Read it again, they're invested in our economy! Any damage to our economy will hurt them! They want our consumers to buy their products! They don't want the Yuan to be in a better position against the USD. "'It's not really a credible threat." Period-dot-bingo!

Look at it this way; why does China and Japan hold massive reserves in USD and not Euros? Could it be because the traditional European wars and petty bickering among them make the EU seem a bit risky over the long term? The Euro has gained against the USD and as a currency is a very good investment in the short run, but is there a long term goal in holding Euros that perhaps China and Japan see as serious?

“They could sell to anyone who wants to buy cheaper US currency and have leverage of the US economy”

Really? I know I’d want to grab up a currency while it’s plummeting on the market! That’ll show them, boy howdy! And as an added bonus, being the holder of the most currency I’d be guaranteed to be the biggest loser in such a scheme.

Ricorun,
Doe Sirocco give you big wet kisses on the face after chewing your Indian-made sandals? Eww!

Dasein Libsbane, Ricorun,

Do you know how the Romans and others bleached their clothes and whitened their teeth?

AAR

Frogger,

I think you have it backwards, if I may; to manipulate the currency market you don’t want to be heavily invested in that market until the price goes down. Oil rich Arab States, Russia, France or Germany could benefit from lower prices if they cause a run on the currency forcing China to sell off its USD at bargain prices. For China to dump currency would hurt the governments holding the most currency; China, Japan, and help those buying the currency; Russia, France, Germany, Arab States. The US would be hurt if the securities market was in sustained freefall as a result of the dump. Paulson pointed out that China would have to dump everything they own and still it would still be less than one day’s trading! We move that much currency around the markets daily.

AAR,
Do you think Rico can whiten his teeth with the dog’s lips now?

Dasein: Do you think Rico can whiten his teeth with the dog’s lips now?

I'll give it a try and report back. Lol!

For the record though, Sirocco just likes to roll on stinky stuff. Sally's the chewer -- and the kisser. But she doesn't go after stinky stuff.

Dasein Libsbane, Ricorun,

Before Mark reprimands us for being off topic, you might do some reading or watch the educational program on the Roman's methods for collecting urine, and how they used it to bleach their clothing (a legitimate and booming business) and whiten their teeth. If I remember correctly, it whitens the teeth very well as it is destroying them! I believe the practice continued well after the fall of the Roman empire -- up until a few hundred years ago. I don't know if still continues in India and other countries. It's interesting, but I'll stick with today's bleach and toothpaste!

AAR

AAR,
Let's see if I can get us back on subject: the Chinese have a pisspoor economy, it doesn't take wizzard to research the facts; A to Pee to determine that investors won’t wet themselves if China decides to piss away their US assets on some crackpot scheme to drain their economy of the only thing holding it together.

How’s that? Does that put the thread back on stream?

Wow, left and right found common ground.

No, Jonnie--right and idiot found common ground...

Dasein Libsbane,

Back to the Chinese (various quotes)...

"BEIJING: The World Bank (WB) on Wednesday raised its economic growth forecast for China this year to 11.3 percent, while warning its growing trade surplus and inflation were the main threats to healthy growth."

"In its latest quarterly update on China's economy, the World Bank raised its growth projection to 11.3 percent from 10.4 percent forecast three months earlier."

"The poorer countries and regions of the world are now witnessing the rise of a hitherto slumbering China that has begun its own scramble for those parts of the world Western Europe and North America, specifically, the United States thought they had conquered for good. But the aggressive drive of the Chinese is not limited to the poorer countries of the world alone. The Chinese battle has been taken to the very doors of the US and the strongest economies of Europe..."

"...a foreign reserve that has topped the trillion-dollar mark.."

"...the Chinese economy has a very bright future. Look for the country to continue what Roth [Capital] has already called "the greatest sustained economic advance of the greatest number of people in recorded history -- 9.7% growth for 26 years."

Sounds like a pretty good economy and a threat to the United States!

AAR

Robert,

The US manufactures fancy stuff like biotech and semiconductors. China manufactures plastic junk. If you cut yourself off from China's plastic junk you would move some of the economy away from high-tech manufacturing and make more assembly line plastic junk. The net result would be less fancy manufactured goods and less plastic junk for American consumption.

We aren't talking about "plastic junk"!

Have you shopped in any stores lately or checked to see where the items you purchase are made? Odds are, they were made in China, or some country other than the United States. And not just the "junk". The quality of some many of those Chinese items are better than you will get from American companies and at a cheaper price.

Check an see where many of those "high end" American items are made today. High end products that were made in America up until recently are now "made in China"; although, they continue to carry the American brand name! Quality appliances, televisions, electronic items, small and large kitchen appliances, mowers, tools, clothes, etc., etc., etc. ...and the list is growing by the day! It's rapidly getting to the point that if I want the best quality product, and at the best price to boot, I find it in products "made in China"-- and I don't like what I'm seeing!

As more and more production of those items moves to China, Taiwan, South Korea, India, Mexico, and other countries... so does the knowledge; the R&D and design experience and expertise; manufacturing and production expertise, techniques, abilities, and capabilities; influence; money; jobs; etc.

Yes, many (most) of the trinkets, "dollar store" items, and inexpensive (but not necessarily "cheap") toys are mostly "made in China", but so are many high end items -- and the numbers are growing by the day.

Take a day off and check the stores. Don't stop with Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Sears, Lowe's, and Home Depot. Check the high end department stores and others in your area. Don't just look at the "cheap plastic junk", but check out the high end items in each store as well.

Let us know what you find!

AAR

Robert,

"...any kind of tax/regulation structure that promotes a sector like manufacturing, or energy, above others, is using more government force on the other sectors than on the government's 'chosen' sectors. This is a concept of socialism."

Refer to Dasein Libsbane's comments.

Is it better to reduce tax "rates" on companies and businesses so they are more profitable, grow the economy, and produce more overall tax revenues (at the lower rate), more jobs with people who will pay more taxes overall (at lower rates), more people working so there aren't as many on welfare who "want and take" more taxes?

I'm talking about actions that would lead to Americans wanting to buy American! We could talk about details, but that really wouldn't do much good here and now.

As to your crying about "Energy self sufficiency?"

We have trillions of dollars in untapped oil and gas reserves in ANWR, off our coasts, and to a lesser extent throughout America. We have 200 to 300 years energy in coal reserves. Add to that oil shale and other energy sources such as nuclear.

It's time we start using our own coal, oil, and gas and stop sending those trillions of dollars to foreign nations, some of whom are our enemies. In addition to keeping those trillions of dollars in America's economy, it would generate millions of jobs and tens (hundreds) of billions of dollars in taxes and other benefits -- all currently going to other nations.

And while we are working to produce more of our own oil, gas, and coal, we should be working aggressively to produce plentiful, cheap, and renewable energy, and begin to phase out our dependence entirely on the oil, gas, and coal.

AAR

AAR,

China's total output is impressive, for what it is. Total GDP is 61% of the US output and the per capita GDP is a weak $5,600; putting China on par with Samoa and Peru.

Contrast that to our real competition in the world; Japan whose total GDP is only 51% of China's but per capita is 525% of China's.

China's increases must be viewed in respect to their overall economy; which is in aggregate less than our annual increase in economy.

Dasein Libsbane,

It's where they (and we) are headed!

If we do not recognize and address that now, we will be forced to deal with it in the not too distant future under much more dire circumstances on many fronts -- including economically, militarily, and world influence to name but a few!

AAR

Bane - you crack me up! I love how you got back on topic.

AAR,
Potentially, you may be right. A scant few generations ago we were warned of Japan’s economic threat; from a country we had been actively engaged in hostilities with; a defeated foe with an axe to grind. We tried to disregard it; then sabotage it, then emulate it; then become part of it; and finally we simply compete with it.

China would require a paradigm shift of gargantuan extent to actually threaten the US’s prowess in the marketplace over an extended period of time. True, many high quality products have the Made in China stamp on them, and I fully expect more to come. But that requires a sustainable economy with market forces that placate or subdue their own consumer demands while acquiescing to worker demands for a greater share of the wealth. Under current circumstances, China will not be able to do that. They will be forced by their own successes to be a more transparent society with rewards for productivity, innovation and risk, the carrot and stick.

Since the second half of the twentieth century, China stands as the only country that could conceivable defeat and occupy the United States by virtue of sheer numbers; a policy of engagement will prevent that from becoming a reality.

China is having their “coming out” party next summer; they are vulnerable to economic pressure right now as they don't want anything to screw this up. Boycott them if you wish; but ignore them at your own peril.

"Carrot and Stick" btw, means dangling a carrot from a stick. Not giving them a carrot when good and hitting with a stick when bad; from an economic pov as well as industrial psychology the latter makes no sense.