you just make this stuff up Matt. What a lying liar you are:
http://www.beyonddelay.org/report

read the report. There are plenty of corrupt republicans being reelected. I am sure you will think of more reasons why they aren't corrupt - but every word out of your mouth is a lie even " the and and"...

liberalT, you've got to be kidding. You're actually quoting a report from CREW to counter Matts assertions?

Melanie Sloan is a partisan JOKE. Not only a previous Democratic Congressional representative, but she is currently the perjurous Valerie Plames and the liar Joe Wilsons legal counsel. She was also reprimanded by the judge in that civil suit for being to outspoken on the case (great ethics there).

liberalT, the only thing you offer here is comic relief.

Is the only response liberals can come up with whne faced with examples of corruption is to point fingers back at Republicans? why don't they ever condemn corrupt members of their own party isn't of playing partisan games.

at least no one here was defending Senator Craig... liberalT, you'd defend a child rapist if he was a Democrat.

Neocon-

Tom Delay does take a good mug shot doesn't he?

Neocon-

You actually didn't refute anything that LiberalT said... You merely attacked the credibility of his source (with no links, mind you), which is merely an ad hominem. Then you personally attacked LiberalT. You know what? Try refuting an argument every once in a while...

Just an aside, neocon...

You attack CREW for being partisan... Are you trying to argue that Matt and B4B aren't at all partisan? Really? How about Tom Delay... is he non-partisan? Why don't you try to apply your own standards to people with whom you agree? Hypocrite...

And guess what Rana? LiberalT doesn't refute anything in this blog either. He didn't even acknowledge that there is scum on the left, he just linked to a liberal groups website and started pissin on Republicans.

Looking over that site he linked, much of the information on Republicans was a stretch... the token Democrats CREW put on that list were ones that they clearly HAD to put in order to appear nonpartisan... but their arguments against most of the Republicans were weak, and I would also point out that LiberalT proved Matt's point in a way... looking at the list... how many of those Republicans were reelected? Many weren't... So, perhaps liberalT would like to grow up and have a reasoned conversation instead of pretending like Democrats are 100% pure.

You guys wrote a book?

The thing is, one must actually have standards and a moral compass, a code of ethics, in order to find someones behavior abhorent. All liberals have is an overriding desire, and irrational need, for power in government. So, they will almost never decry any of their folks for bad behavior. Just deflect off on to others.

Actually, KCJ, he did in this post...

Matt's assertion was that Republicans don't reelect corrupt congress critters. LiberalT posted a link containing a list of corrupt politicians, many of which were Republican, and many of those Republicans were reelected.

In this case, LiberalT did refute Matt's point, and you guys attack his source without sources of your own, leaving aside the fact that the study actually does a pretty good job of backing up its assertions.

So, unless you have anything smart to say, I suggest you guys shut up and learn the first rule of holes.

Of all the examples you listed, NONE of those people were arrested, and charged with a crime. Craig was arrested, charged, and pled guilty to the charges.
Larry Craig has not resigned and I pray that he doesn't - he's the best thing that's happened to the Democrats since George Bush.

Rana... Again.. That was a liberal group's site. And many of their so-called claims of corruption were weak.

If a conservative group were cited in counter point, you'd argue that that source wasn't a reliable one... So, unless you are suggesting that the examples Matt posted are not true (and they seem pretty clear cut to me) then you've clearly got nothing to stand on.

i would defend a child rapist if he was a democrat?

Are you on crack? Every time I comment about this I am VERY clear. Corruption IS clearly rampant in the Democratic party - and I say lets throw the bastards out. Corruption is ALSO clearly rampant in the Republican party - lets throw those bastards out.

No - absolutely not. I have never been a partisan hack. Both parties suck. Period

Tom Delay does take a good mug shot doesn't he?

What has Tom Delay been convicted of?

You attack CREW for being partisan...Rana

um....moron, CREW depicts themselves as a non-partisan ethical congressional watchdog organization, and they're far from it.

B4B is a self-admitted conservative and partisan blogsite and Tom Delay is, well a conservative (what a shock), so that was a lousy analogy. As for the merits of the argument, there were NONE. liberalT said that many scandalous republicans were being re-elected and then linked us to the report. There is ZERO mention of that in the report.

In fact, I am having a real can't think of ONE republican, under an ehtics cloud that has been re-elected. There maybe one or two, but not near as many as on the other side of the aisle.

So the next time, actually read the reports before coming off half cocked, as most liberals do. And I am surprised Rana, many of your posts are pretty well thought out, with the exception of the last two. Did you not have your Wheaties this morning?

Rana,

kblack gave a link to a site who lists everyone with a cloud of suspicion over their heads as "corrupt." Now, I'm not saying that the GOP doesn't do the same, to some extent, but if people are not indicted/convicted of anything, how can they be labeled as corrupt?

It's just that every time a Republican comes under a cloud, your side is the judge, jury, and exocutioner(sp?). In Jack-off Murtha's case, he convicted soldiers, on national television, before any of them were even charged. Howeird Dean once said, of Tom Delay, "He should go back to Houston and serve his sentence."

There are others, by why bother with you assholes--your Bush-hatred is rampant, so rampant, that you must paint the entire GOP as corrupt.

So be it. I'm no van Gogh, but I can paint, too.

kblack, van Gogh was an artist. Starry Night.

This Larry Craig "scandal" is probably cover for the real corruption that was uncovered this week, something to do with campaign financing, and some broad named Clinton...

I just noticed that on that list of "corrupt members of Congress" by that sham of an organization called CREW, is Rick Santorum.

uh.....Rick is no longer a representative, and he was third on the list.

Great organization to refer to, huh?

Well neocon there is your problem right there you cannot get your corrupt members re-elected because to be in the GOP you have to have the appearance of a living oxymoron an ethical politician.

But you blokes are the "family values" set and even the data on your glorious 1950s shows that too was a lie [virtually everyone was having sex before marriage (gasp) and companies were rife with embezzlement and when did those unfortunate rapes of altar boys start to occur?]. Living a lie is doomed to failure people, [see Numbers 32:23]but that being true still does not make it right for any politician to be corrupt or criminal. The system allows for it see Ney, Cunningham, Pombo, Renzi, Feeney, Doolittle, Lewis, Stevens, and yes DeLay. I would point out though that the male page in the Gerry Studds imbroglio was of age in Washington DC because he was 17. Not saying it makes his conduct becoming but it does make it legal and as a solicitor the law is very important to me. I just wish I could say that for poor Senator Craig after hearing that audio tape of his arrest. I tend to agree with CNN's Jack cafferty "When you're dead you should lie down."

I will say it one final time in simple words so you pea brains can understand.

POLITICIANS ARE CORRUPT.

not liberal politicians, not conservative politicians, not girl politicians, not boy politicians. POLITICIANS

now - Matt and Mark have written a whole book dedicated to how there is a "culture of corruption" in the democratic party. Fair enough. There IS. Just like there is in the Republican one. Why deny it? Just say you want to fight corruption. Don't be such a robot.

"When it comes to corrupt members of Congress, the difference is clear. Republicans [and Democrats] re-elect them."

Fixed that for ya.

Gar Wood

Craig was arrested, charged, and pled guilty to the charges.

Pled guilty to disorderly conduct, asshat. Now let's discuss real corruption. It's Hso time...

By Matt Margolis at 01:23 PM

The Republicans would have you believe yet again they are taking the moral high ground. If this is the case, how is it you hear silence from the Republican leadership concerning Senator Vitter's involvement with prostitutes? This is illegal in DC. Could this silence be due to the fact Democratic governor Blanca would select his replacement? Oh, how the hypocrisy grows.

Don't disagree there are bad apples in the Democratic party. Funny how Matt never used the word convicted once in his list. Came close in the wiretapping case, but given what the President and Gonzo have done as far as wiretapping citizens, I think this point is also hypocritical.

By Matt Margolis at 01:23 PM

The Republicans are yet taking the moral high ground. How is it you hear silence from the Republican leadership concerning Senator Vitter's involvement with prostitutes? This is illegal in DC. Could this silence be due to the fact Democratic governor Blanca would select his replacement? Oh, how the hypocrisy grows.

Don't disagree there are bad apples in the Democrat party. Funny how Matt never used the word convicted once. Came close in the wiretapping case, but given what the President and Gonzo have done as far as wiretapping citizens, I think this point is also hypocritical.

neocon: I just noticed that on that list of "corrupt members of Congress" by that sham of an organization called CREW, is Rick Santorum.

uh.....Rick is no longer a representative, and he was third on the list.

In case you care, here's the complete rundown of the CREW list as liberalT presented it (and as best I know the current situation):

Sen. Conrad Burns (R-MT) Defeated - currently under investigation
Sen. Bill Frist (R-TN) Resigned - cleared of all charges
Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA) Defeated
Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO) Reelected
Rep. Ken Calvert (R-CA) Reelected
Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Tom Feeney (R-FL) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Katherine Harris (R-FL) Defeated
Rep. William Jefferson (D-LA) Reelected - indicted
Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-CA) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Gary Miller (R-CA) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Alan Mollohan (D-WV) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Marilyn Musgrave (R-CO) Reelected
Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA) Defeated - currently under investigation
Rep. Rick Renzi (R-AZ) Reelected - currently under investigation
Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX) Reelected
Rep. John Sweeney (R-NY) Defeated
Rep. Charles Taylor (R-NC) Defeated
Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) Reelected
Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA) Defeated

So should Webb be forced out for regularly carrying a gun in DC despite Democrats being against gun rights in DC?

Matt-

Did Tom Delay or the RNC give you your marching orders this morning? Hot Tub Tom was on two shows hawking this line about republicans policing their own and voting members out. Yet Vitter retains the full support of the party.

Washington Post, July & October, 2006...

"...CREW, a liberal-leaning group that has come under attack from ... Republicans because it has received money from a foundation funded by liberal financier George Soros."

"...Democracy Alliance has followed up on its pledge to become a major power in the liberal movement. It has lavished millions on groups that have been willing to submit to its extensive screening process and its demands for secrecy."

"An alliance of nearly a hundred of the nation's wealthiest donors is roiling Democratic political circles, directing more than $50 million in the past nine months to liberal think tanks and advocacy groups in what organizers say is the first installment of a long-term campaign to compete more aggressively against conservatives."

"Democracy Alliance was formed last year with major backing from billionaires such as financier George Soros and Colorado software entrepreneur Tim Gill."

"Likewise, a Democracy Alliance blessing effectively jump-started Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW). It bills itself as a nonpartisan watchdog group committed to targeting "government officials who sacrifice the common good to special interests." Alliance officials see CREW as a possible counterweight to conservative-leaning Judicial Watch, which filed numerous lawsuits against Clinton administration officials in the 1990s. A CREW spokesman declined to comment."

AAR

thanks ricorun. I was gonna do the same thing... beat me to the punch. but didn't Frist retire, not resign? and Katherine Harris also didn't run for reelection in the House, she ran for Senate and lost.

Of course, their list is hardly the best reference, for reasons I already went into. I don't buy CREWs arguments about why certain Republicans are corrupt.

but given what the President and Gonzo have done as far as wiretapping citizens, I think this point is also hypocritical.

Still haven't found a boyfriend/girlfriend yet, I see. You need to find someone to cure you of regurgitating lying talking points, plainmaryjane.

liberalTHC, we get it; you love Al Franken. Enough of the "lying liar" line. Can't you at least be original in your stupidity?

Rico, Frist didn't resign, as CREW asserted. He term-limited himself, otherwise, he'd have been reelected.

Wow. This whole thread looks like a pissing contest. Frankly, I think both parties lose. Kind of makes me wish there was a third party.

Casper - if it's not about being gay. If its about hypocrisy. Should Webb (D-VA) be forced to resign for carrying a gun into DC. Letting his aid take the fall. And not admitting it was his gun until the Capital Police inexplicably dropped charges because of "lack of evidence?" By the way, with the gun and videos of the incident, I wonder what standard for evidence they were using?

Kahn,
My personal feeling is that a politician should be forced to resign if convicted of a felony. If Webb were to be convicted of knowingly carrying a gun into DC I would expect him to resign.

keef: Rico, Frist didn't resign, as CREW asserted. He term-limited himself, otherwise, he'd have been reelected.

Regardless of what CREW had to say about him (to be honest I didn't read it), he did resign. If he imposed term limits on himself, good for him. But if so, he's the only one of many that took that pledge -- and so far as I know, the only one of them all to keep it. But I don't think his decision was quite so simple either. As I recall, he had his eyes on the White House when he decided to resign. Things didn't work out.

Anyway, I used liberalT's list as only a starting point. And it's important to point out that, as far as I can tell, their list hasn't been updated since before the 2006 elections. I didn't add any new investigations that they didn't mention either. I could have, but I didn't. I just used their list as a starting point in what by all rights should be a very long discussion.

I get the impression that most people have just a fuzzy notion of what constitutes corruption. Especially considering the laws that exist, it's actually a very difficult question as to where corruption starts to implicate a given candidate. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't even start paying attention until allegations at least proceed into the investigation phase. Anyone can be accused of just about anything. The media very much fuels such speculations, and their interest has a lot more to do with the newsworthiness of the accused than the factual basis of the accusations. Thus, I don't pay much attention until one or another law enforcement agency gets involved in an investigation. If you can't get some local or regional DA somewhere to pay attention to the case somewhere along the line, it's a pretty safe bet that the allegations aren't worth much. That's not a perfect rule perhaps, but I think it's a pretty good one. Likewise, there are other things worth taking into consideration, but that one's a biggie for me. Otherwise you end up whining about stuff that really isn't worth whining about -- unless or until you change the rules. And ironically, quite a number of things the whiners whine about most are:
1) violations of laws that don't exist but they wish they did or;
2) violations of putative laws they would rather didn't ever exist.

Let me get this straight: Democrats can't be hypocrytes because they set the bar so low, they can never go under it! I swear this is what every Dem on the talkshow circuit has said in the past few days. All they do is say "Live by family values, die by family values." So I guess live with no morals at all and your good to go!

Want to run a prostitution ring out of your house? Sure, go for it, just make sure you have a "D" after your name.

Casper - ohhhh, so Foley should have stayed and Craig should stay?

jbiccum: Let me get this straight: Democrats can't be hypocrytes because they set the bar so low, they can never go under it! I swear this is what every Dem on the talkshow circuit has said in the past few days. All they do is say "Live by family values, die by family values." So I guess live with no morals at all and your good to go!

I don't think it's quite that simple, but I'd say that hypocrisy weighs heavily into the equation, yes. Are you suggesting there's a reason why it shouldn't?

Funny to hear the Dems base all the "hypocracy on the Moral Tone Set by the GOP". This would mean the GOP members get axed automatically for even talking about morals right? Well, by the same token, the Dems don't have much in the way of morals, so I guess the "old double standard still
works for them". It's a "do as I say, NOT AS I DO
KIND OF THING". Clintons, Kennedy, Gay Franks, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, and too many corrupt to mention, have 'set the bar so low, YET, they expect others to continue to give them a PASS, just like the MSM does on a daily basis'.

That can't be right.....
I thought Bush fired attornies for investigating Republicans.

I'm sure of that because the Demcorats are still holding hearings on the fring of attornies who were investigating Republicans.

As for Craig.... what he should have said was he's not gay but the guy who is blowing him might have been

Rico, it is that simple. Watch H&C. They have this guy Bob Beckel I think his name is. He's a Democrat strategist. He keeps saying exactly that, all Republicans are hypocrytes because they believe in the family, and a few bad eggs means they're all hypocrytes. Democrats aren't though because they set the bar so low.

Bloomberg on Blunt and Boehner

Wikipedia article on Ken Calvert's real estate deals

Wikipedia article on John Doolittle's helping of his wife

Wikipedia article on Tom Feeney's controversies

Wikipedia article on Jerry Lewis' controversies

Gary Miller's controversies, mostly linked to tax evasion

Rick Renzi's controversies, some of which are tied in with his father's defense firm

Those are 8 current, incumbent members of congress... All Republican and all with shady ethics. That also took me less than 5 minutes to compile (I love tabbed browsing). My point wasn't that CREW was non-partisan... my point was that you discounted a piece of information not because it was wrong, but because of who said it. I verified those points with a little savvy web browsing (all of the Congressmen were on CREW's list) in a few minutes.

(TRANSCRIPT)

OFFICER: Okay. Then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.

CRAIG: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.

OFFICER: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?

DETECTIVE: Uh, no.

OFFICER:Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 1236 interview is done.

CRAIG: Okay.

I think the officer sums it up perfectly. His words are just another tolling of the bell that the neo conservative experiment in governance is dead.

MarkofZero, so a Republican should leave for being gay. But a Democrat who violates gun laws (Webb - D -VA) is OK to stay? Both hypocrites. One guilty of a misdemeanor, the other admitted that his aid was caught with HIS gun (after the felony charges were politically dropped?)

If its about hypocrisy - the Webb should go and you should admit it. If you don't then your arguments will be taken as partisan tripe and worth nothing.

That goes for all of you liberals by the way. Stop the mob chanting and engage your brains for a minute.

Kahn-

Should Vitter, who admitted to using a whores, resign? You know what I think about, Webb, Craig and Vitter. I want to hear your thoughts.

How is a Louisiana Senator using a "whore" being hypocritical? I mean, have you ever been to Louisiana?

But no, I guess I missed your positions on Webb, Craig and Vitter. You think they should all resign? Is the Senate like some temple or something? Then should Kennedy resign for Chappaquiddick? Like Vitter, it was a while ago and he was never charged. But the alleged crime was much more serious. Hell, in Nevada Vitters crime isn't even a crime.

Kahn-

Congress is a temple of laws. Those who draft and enact laws should have to follow them. If they do not they should resign. IMHO, the Kennedys, Clinton, Webb, Stevens, Vitter, Craig, etc... should not have retained or retain their positions. I guess I want my politicans to be law abiding, I want them to be better than the average american. I am funny like that.

OK. But Vitter is charged with no crime and Craig plead guilty, was fined, and put on probation. As far as the law is concerned - they are done. No punishment is warranted in one case and it would be double-jeopardy in the other.

But Webb, well now. He is apparently packing heat in DC. He gives his briefcase to his aid who is busted. But the charges are mysteriously dropped? Lack of evidence (I guess a video, the gun, and testimony wasn't enough). AFTER the charges are dropped Webb admits it was his gun. Must have missed the loyalty and honesty stuff at Annapolis.

Now Webb is a Democrat and Democrats are fighting the Republican efforts to overturn DC's crazy gun laws. Given this hypocrisy and the fact that these laws are FELONIES that a normal citizen would go to prison for, shouldn't Webb resign? Shouldn't Democrats be calling for his resignation? What with undermining their anti-gun efforts? Well - shouldn't he?

Similarly, when US congressman Kennedy - Teddy's son crashes into a Capital Hill barrier blitzed on drugs and alcohol no charges are brought. This kids first job after college was Congressman. He had drug problems all through school. No charges?

Here is the pattern - felony charges against Democrats are dropped or never made despite overwhelming evidence. Temple of Laws?

What a joke. When Republicans aren't busy hiding the illegal actions of their peers they're changing the rules to let those peers keep their seats, assuming they even get a chance to before their peers are hauled off to jail in droves. Such a willful disregard for the long list of Republican crooks in an attempt to spin new talking points is audacious at best. It's also what helped Republicans lost control of Congress last November so I say, keep it up!

Kahn,

Maybe if your party's Congressional representative and senators did not stand in front of the cameras and shout nonsense about family values and the sanctity of marriage and so forth they would have a little less distance to fall when they expose themselves [pun intended] as humans of frail character and little real honor.

The Democrats are a bit more liberal for lack of a better word in their policing of their own yes than the GOP which has a rigid rule of keeping up appearances. It is sad to see the collapse of what was once the Party of Lincoln, then was devolved into the Party of craze corporate anti-communism and finally has become the party of where the sweepings of the Dixiecrat Party rife with racist religious platforms with nods and winks to wealthy elites as to their safety from taxation at the expense of the middle class.

Great, but very difficult, days lie ahead for America. This is true only if you recognize that those who have been herding you are not Men they are wolves. Now, see, all around you, the wolves are fleeing. Soon the dumb shepherd weeps alone.

Qu'ul cuda praedex nihil!

Kahn-

Is it just desperation at this point that pushes you to strain logic?

How is Webb a hypocrite? He's never campaigned in favor of gun laws. In fact he's got an "A" rating from the NRA, look it up.
He may be a Democrat but he's also a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter. True he's foolish for not following the laws of D.C. with regard to his firearm, but that doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Now to school you on what a "hypocrite" actual is.

hypocrite

Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: 'hi-p&-"krit
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritEs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Now considering how Craig, Vitter, and Gingrich went after Clinton for his affair, and presented themselves as upstanding guardians of decency I'd say that puts them firmly in the hypocrite column wouldn't you? Hell, Craig even votes against every bill that favors gays and here he is a homosexual. I'd say that puts him and the greater part of the Republican Party in that column because they campaigned as these morally upstanding "family values" people and what we're finding out is quite the opposite. Not only that, but they've been covering up for these scumbags for a long long time.

Republicans have known about their "bad apples" for years, so please don't present yourselves as the party of quick action, the ones who toss their dirty laundry when it's discovered. That's a load of BS. Take Foley for instance. His homosexuality and penchant for buggering pages was known for almost 10 years but hidden from the public. And then there’s Senator Craig. Craig has had “incidents” like the one he had with that cop in the bathroom many times in the past. These incidents weren’t a secret to the Republican leadership either but they were a secret to his constituents.

So Kahn since the Republicans throw out those that tarnish the Party's good name can we expect Vitter to "retire" next week?
.......................,, didn't think so.