For my fellow Americans who are gay - I just advise you how Bill Clinton treated your cause in 1993 after you went flat out for him in 1992. You will be betrayed again, if you are fool enough to back Democrats in 2008.

As opposed to the GOP, which has made outward homophobia and gay-baiting a signature of the previous two election cycles?

If my choice is between Mark 'What Is Homosexuality?' Noonan and your party, and the admittedly cautious Democrats, I'll take the latter.

They might not be handing gays their desired rights (marriage/partnership, etc) as of yet, but at least they have never torn us down to appease the farthest extremes of their base.

Mark,

If I may ask: what is it with you and your complete disdain for the Democrats and people like myself who lean left?
In my opinion, the Democrats aren't perfect and I have my issues with them, but from your post, it sounds like you absoultely hate them and the left. If this is true, I would like to know why.

Mark,

If I may ask: what is it with you and your complete disdain for the Democrats and people like myself who lean left?
In my opinion, the Democrats aren't perfect and I have my issues with them, but from your post, it sounds like you absolutely hate them and the left. If this is true, I would like to know why.

damn, I accidentally sent my post twice. my bad.

TL,
"people like myself who lean left"

LEAN? My bad. It seems all the loons in the world lean left. Chavez, Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, terrorists, AQ, Gore, Kerry, Dean....

Pandering on the right or left doesn't work. Ask McCain how is that pandering to Neocons, Jerry Farwell Pat Robertson and illegal aliens working for him?

A whole hour for gay issues? I would watch to see just how they use the time...

God - Mark - you are such a reactionary. God forbid that they discuss "gay" issues. What are you talking about "always campaigning over transgendered issues". It is an extremely small part of any of the democrats platform. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Secondly - of course Melissa Ethridge doesn't bring much to a presidential debate. However, either does Arnold S. and you don't seem to freak out everytime he says something.

Take a deep breath , relax, don't worry they will soon go back to spending the other 99% of their time discussing issues that are completely relevant to white , Christian, males. Its so amazing to me how reactionary you are. You are so use to getting so much attention that even the smallest mention of something that might not concern you brings upon such bile from you...

kblack's [the PhD] definition of bile?

"we will never, ever betray you" by Mark.
How might one have a PhD, yet not be able to comprehend what he read? Perhaps grad school "taught" by like minded libs?

And Mark is correct, you won't hear the Dems talking about abortion on demand, unless forced into it. If the Dems know anything about politics, it is what the polls show. And so does the MSM, so you won't hear about it.

Btw... I just changed my own blog from blogspot to wordpress... so links prior to this won't work...

kblack-

I think that you're being a little harsh on Mark. Democrats have had a poor record on gay issues (don't ask don't tell? Come on!), however, that record is better than that of Republicans. Democrats seem to be doing a lot of the "single issue" debates... First the Black debate, now the gay debate... I wonder what's next... sounds fun...

Mark,

Gays may have felt stung by "don't ask don't tell" 16 long years ago but the conservative movements banning gay marriage and adoption are fresh wounds. Liberal Democrats have stood up in opposition to those movements.

"we are ready to compromise and we will never, ever betray you."

Bahahaha...Compromise on WHAT? How can you betray the dog you've been kicking around for years? To betray means that some trust existed to begin with. So when I hear you try and reach out to the gay community, here's what I think:

"It isn't a matter of caring or principle - because the [Republicans] don't care and have no principles other than the ruthless pursuit of power..."

Gar Wood

Clearly, gays would be better off voting for the party of Sponge Dob.

I wonder if teh gays feel bad for causing 9/11, or if it's just phase 1 in their devious plan to make us all marry our pets?

sure - nobody has a particular nice record with regard to gay issues. That's not my point. My point is that he is incredibly reactionary. He is so insecure that even if they devote one day out of several years of campaigning to go and discuss gay issues he can't handle it. It clearly upsets him enough to complain about it. Given that ~1/10 is gay they should be discussing it at least 3 times a month not once a campaign.

"and we will never betray you" ??? Mark it wasn't that long ago that the good christians wanted all of the gays locked up in jails.

I actually don't care about gays, transexuals, transgendered,or whatever the code word of the day is. They are a tiny minority. They can live as they please as far as I'm concerned. Note, the same applies to bigamists and animal lovers as far as I'm concerned.

I do care that their agenda is represented in popular entertainment way out of proportion to their numbers. And that their lives are so often represented in such an idealistic manner. Comes off as propaganda.

its not a tiny fraction Kahn. Its 10%. There are far fewer then 10% of shows about gays, far fewer than 10% of movies about gays, far fewer than 10% of anything that deals with gays. So no kahn - they are underrepresented. If you don't like it - just don't watch it...

Mark: Democrats Agree to Massive Pander-Fest

It might be unfortunate, but really... what is any campaign but a massive pander-fest?

Heck, according to information I learned on this very site, maybe the GOP candidates ought to consider a debate on LGBT issues. I think they'd be thrilled to hear that most conservatives are in favor of bestowing upon same-sex unions all the same legal rights (and obligations), both on state and federal levels, as heterosexual unions -- just so long as they don't try to call it marriage.

My guess is they'd be thrilled to hear that. And if it's true, what's the down side?

Jeremy,

And why don't you try to answer my query in that linked article? It is a serious question which deserves a serious answer.

TL,

In a sense, I've lived with the Democrats for the past two years as Matt and I wrote Caucus of Corruption - adding that in-depth research to a lifetime of experience and, yes, you do get some rather bad feelings on my part towards the Democrats. I do try to control them, but I am an imperfect human being.

You're still young and, perhaps, a bit unwary - better to be that way, but it can some times lead to error. But there is, youngster, a monumental level of contempt your liberal leaders have for you. They will wow you with schemes to "tax the rich", but they'll never tax themselves; they will get your blood flowing with rhetoric about the evils of big oil, but they're actually not going to do anything about it because their union bosses don't want anything to rock the boat in union-heavy oil and transportation; they'll pull your heart strings with sympathetic tales about how they care for gay Americans, but they won't do anything because their power is based on fraudulently maintaining a few quasi-conservatives who would be killed at the polls if the Democratic party actually pushed the gay rights agenda...

They want your votes and they want your money - and they'll tell you that as long as you 100% agree with them that you are quite a clever child...but if you just once step out of line, you'll find how quickly and ruthlessly they'll turn on you.

Keep that love in your heart - but keep your eyes open. Also keep in mind that my first step towards the paleo-right came when I found that I couldn't go with federally funded abortion on demand...and at that moment it became impossible for me to ever be liberal, because the liberals would have nothing to do with me.

kblack,

It just occurs to me that there aren't really that many transgendered people - and yet they get high billing in the gay rights movement. It would be interesting to know just what is a transgendered issue, and just how, say, John Edwards and Hillary Clinton feel about them.

And, at most, homosexuals of all stripes make up 3 or 4% of the population - 10% is a made-up number.

Gar,

You'll get nothing from the Democrats - because they hold 16 GOP seats which would fall if they went all out on any part of the leftwing agenda. They will sing and dance for you, but they won't go to the mat for you because that would put the only thing they care about at risk: their power.

And no one is banning gay marriage or gay adoption - what is sweeping the nation is a popular demand that the courts not be allowed to overturn centuries of settled law on a liberal whim. When I say we're ready to compromise, I mean that - there isn't one in ten conservatives who won't work out some sort of legal mechanism to allow same sex couples to pool their assets and liabilities...but we won't allow a tiny minority to overturn what marriage is, nor will we sit idly by while the left attempts another Roe end-run around the constitution.

And when we say we will do something, we'll do it - and when we say that we oppose something, you know where we stand and are free to argue against us in the public square and work to thwart us at the polls - Christians - believers - Gar, are your best friends...who are you going to rely on: a person who thinks that truth is a relative concept, or a person who thinks that truth is absolute and lies will all have to be paid for?

You think about that.

Ricorun,

Thing is, we GOPers are averse to having "gay issues"...or "black issues"...or "single mother issues". On the whole, we perfer to deal with human issues and not try to box everyone up.

They will sing and dance for you, but they won't go to the mat for you because that would put the only thing they care about at risk: their power.

my Irony Meter just melted.

how's that border fence going ? immigration "reform" ? Federal Marriage Amendment ? how about that ban on abortion ?

They will sing and dance for you, but they won't go to the mat for you because that would put the only thing they care about at risk: their power.

my Irony Meter just melted.

how's that border fence going ? immigration "reform" ? Federal Marriage Amendment ? how about that ban on abortion ?

And when we say we will do something, we'll do it - and when we say that we oppose something, you know where we stand and are free to argue against us in the public square and work to thwart us at the polls - Christians - believers - Gar, are your best friends...who are you going to rely on: a person who thinks that truth is a relative concept, or a person who thinks that truth is absolute and lies will all have to be paid for?

You think about that.

I spent about one second thinking about that, and came down on the side of the "relative truthers." Honestly, the people who think homosexuality is a sin, gays are going to burn in hell, and gay marriage should be outlawed are a gay person's "best friend"? Seriously??

I'm not gay, but I am going to go out on a limb and project that about 99% of Democratic gays will not be persuaded by this kind of reasoning.

As they do with the black community, democrats feign concern for gays every 4 years. Like clockwork. THey keep them blindly tethered to their party by fostering rage and victimization. That's all. Once the election is over, they act like it never happened. They're not stupid. THey know that plenty of midwestern and southern democrats who don't live in big cities would frown on gay marriage. So they do nothing about it. --Similarly in the black community, blacks ignore the fact that they are majority pro-life, church going, anti-gun control, anti-school vouchers, all republican virtues. All democrats have to do is keep acting like racism is the number one problem facing black America and they will blindly give them 90% of their vote. Forget the real issues like 70% of black children born to single mothers, school drop out rates, and welfare dependance. Forget that you sap the hope out of whole generations of children when all you tell them is that the world is against them, white people hate them, and widespread racism will always keep them back. The democrats don't care about the damage they do to the black community. THey've got their votes and now they can go back to business. Yet republicans are the racist ones for preaching self reliance and personal responsibility.

Yes the Democrats are often disappointing, but at least that aren’t actively hostile the way Republicans are. They are not opposing basic housing and job protections as you are. So expect this trans-women to actively oppose the theocratic thugs who call themselves Republican. The Democrats might be week but their the best we queers have got right now.

As a gay Libertarian and supporter of our party's nomination process, I come from a party that has an unbroken record of support for gay equality under the law since 1973.

I come from a party whose presidential nominees over the past 10 years have been outstandingly pro-gay. Our party's presidential candidate Harry Browne, in 1996, was fighting for gay equality back when Bob Dole was returning donations from gay Republicans.

I come from a party that stands for small government for REAL -- not illegal $1 trillion wars based on lies.

I come from the only national political party to demand marriage equality -- in a press release -- on Valentine's Day of this year.

Are the Democrats duplicitous and dishonest on gay issues? Often, yes they are. And we call them on it -- every time -- and we'll be there in the election with a Libertarian candidate to challenge Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and the rest on how their deeds don't match their words.

He or she will call for marriage equality, immigration rights for same-sex couples, tax treatment equality, the elimination of the Don't Ask Don't Tell law, the repeal of DOMA, and so on.

We've fought all of those, for years, from a position of principle -- as queer and straight Libertarians. We've earned the right to criticize Democrats AND Republicans based on their actions and hypocrisy in those areas.

Republicans, who supported this trail of bigotry and hatred (and lots of big government in the process) don't have a leg to stand on.

The only alternative for gay people who are concerned about gay rights and government expansion/intrusion into our lives is the Libertarian Party. The Republican Party has done nothing to earn the votes, trust, or even polite consideration of gay people. The sooner the Republican Party collapses and liquidates, the better for all Americans -- gay and otherwise.

Ok ...who's playing the joke? Keefer what are you up to now...LOL?

kblack - I don't believe the 10% number. That would mean there are 30 million gays in th e nation. I just don't think its true.

Liutenant Yar - what are you talkining about? Haven't you heard about all the gay Republicans and our gay relatives?

Can you name the gay relatives of ANY democratic leaders? Only Republican relatives? Hmmmmm

ah - well Kahn doesn't believe it so it can't be true. Look about 5% of men self identify as gay. There have been many studies to show that the total number is probably about twice that. Could it be as low as 5% sure. And probably as high as 15%. The number is not that important - the fact that it a significant percentage of the population is...

Kahn: Can you name the gay relatives of ANY democratic leaders? Only Republican relatives? Hmmmmm

Now that I think about it, I really can't. Why is that? Just off the top of my head I can think of three possible reasons:

1. They don't exist, which is pretty unlikely.
2. The media doesn't report it, which IS likely, especially if...
3. The "leader" in question supports gay rights. In which case, 2 is nullified because it's not a juicy story.

I think even you would have to admit that whether or not a given "leader", or a relative of a given leader is gay, is a juicy story only in relation to their public stand on the issue. In other words, the primary issue isn't gayness, it's hypocrisy. At least that's my guess.

Mark,

"When I say we're ready to compromise, I mean that - there isn't one in ten conservatives who won't work out some sort of legal mechanism to allow same sex couples to pool their assets and liabilities"

First of all, I'll believe it when I see it. The Republican base is homophobic. Second, supporting due process property rights is not "compromising" - it's a basic element of the Constitution.

"Christians - believers - Gar, are your best friends...who are you going to rely on: a person who thinks that truth is a relative concept, or a person who thinks that truth is absolute and lies will all have to be paid for?"

This isn't an issue of "absolute" or "relative" truth, and it's certainly not an issue of "believers." No reasonable person should support candidates that are certainly opposed to their interests over candidates that are less certainly supportive of their interests - that is the crucial reason why you are wrong.

Gar Wood

"No reasonable person should support candidates that are certainly opposed to their interests over candidates that are less certainly supportive of their interests - that is the crucial reason why you are wrong."

No, Gar Wood,

No straight, reasonable person would vote for the Sodomization of marriage!

Furthermore, We only want what is best for society!!

And we want the Sodomites to stay out of the Constitution and our Courts!!

Congress should establish this into law -

'There shall be no laws enacted upon, or put into law, the request of any activist judge, or upon behalf of any oranization, linked to any civil liberties union or activist groups, in favor the individual set apart from the two party system of democracy'

There shall be NO supersedure between party lines, of one party over or in favor of the other!! NONE!! End of story!!

And if Sodomites don't like it? They can get a ticket out of this country!!

THE WILL OF THE 'PEOPLE' RULES!!!

zero tolerance!

Jeremiah

Rico - exactly.

And KYBlack - if you say a number often enough, it does not magically become true.

Sorry, Jeremiah, we liberals will stop at nothing until you are personally forced to dispense birth control to a turtle-marrying illegal immigrant. Mwahaha

Zero tolerance!

Gar Wood

Gar - yes, by all means give birth control to that turtle marrying person, and buy them a ticket back to San Francisco.

Half man? half turtle?..... TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES!!!!!

"And no one is banning gay marriage or gay adoption"

I strongly suggest that you quit while you're behind. You are rapidly making a fool of yourself.

If it took every last penny I had, I would buy them ALL a ticket to Japan, and maybe some to Iraq, where they could do something manly for once, and help fight this War on Terrorism!!!!!!!

Jeremiah

AMAZING !!!!!

WHY.....WHY????
would a man seek to IDENTIFY who he is, by BRAGGING about his sick compulsion to have anal intercourse, or oral copulation with ANOTHER MAN????
likewise the same for women.
This sickness has become a rallying point for many, and shows the depths which our country has sunk.
It is truly a mental illness.
I do not hate the people BUT i sure oppose their open AGENDA, to normalise their debauchery.