I-IM-IM-IM-IMPOSSIBLE!

I have to admit that the economy has performed well under Bush.

Let's put these things into perspective. Both Reagan and Bush the Younger have had some large deficits, even with increased tax revenue, due to large increases in spending, both on defense and social programs. And until this year, Dubya didn't have to deal with a Democratic Congress, where he could say, "the other party demanded such-and-such".

As we all know, Kennedy's life was tragically cut short before he could see the economic benefits of his tax cut. I believe that fiscal 1969, a year shared by LBJ and Nixon, produced a surplus.

Fools! In constant world currency the DOW/SP500 has lost value. Hope you're not too invested...

P.S. In case you didn't get the inference, the dollar is at a record low against he pound,euro and other world currencies. i.e. In real terms the DOW/SP500 is dropping in real money terms. Seems like you're making money though. Fun ain't it?

P.P.S. Iran is no longer accepting dollars for oil from Japan, they want Yen. Makes you feel warm all over...

3My - Unless you're looking to go overseas on vacation, the low dollar is good for us. It makes foreign products more expensive (lessening imports) and makes our products less expensive overseas (increasing imports).

At least, thats what I remember from college. Have you gotten that far yet in the prison G.E.D. class?

oops, meant increasing exports.

Great rebuttal Kahn,

The overall economic health of the country is very strong and, as with nearly everything, there are some challenged components. The dishonest liberals, 3moreyears for example, will jump all over those weaker indicators to convince us how everything sucks.

Off Topic - I heard a replay of Murtha standing at the podium, not long after the Haditha event, accusing, trying and convicting our own soldiers of war atrocities, which they are now being exonerated from.

He should be impeaced, tried and hung for treason. The man is a complete waste of flesh, as is nearly every liberal.

Dow 13,907. S & P 500 at all time high. Those private accounts for social security would be looking pretty good right now. Thanks dems for again screwing us, our children and grandchildren. God bless you President George W. Bush, presiding over the strongest economy in history and the greatest president in american history.

Need I remind you for the 1000th time that there was a surplus when Bush started his Presidency. So not for a second will I believe your constant lies, trash, and nonsense. The fact that things are somewhat better since 2003 does not make up for the fact that they are so much worse then they were in 1999. Its as if I lost 100,000 of your money and then gained 10K of it back. Would you think me an economic genius ?

kb, what is by far the biggest part of the budget?

We would have balanced budgets right now if it wasn't for Bush's tax cuts.

In January 2001, before Bush's tax cuts, the CBO predicted budget surpluses every year through 2011.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=2727&type=0&sequence=1

Instead we've had budget deficits every year as a result of Bush's tax cuts. Bush's tax cuts did not work. The only thing they did was put more money in the pockets of the wealthiest Americans and increase our national debt by trillions of dollars.

Kahn,

Products becoming more expensive is a bad thing, not a good thing. Why do you think the Fed's top priority is keeping inflation low?

So... how would the budget be faring if the Iraq war was included as a yearly expense rather than an emergency appropriation?

Nice spin... dizzy?

May I first point out that the figures Mark quoted are at this point in time AN ESTIMATE, not actual performance figures.

Whether or not they will be achieved will depend, amongst other factors, on how the price of oil and therefore gas performs for the rest of the year, and as Rana points out the Iraq cost is not counted in these figures.

I'm not saying the projection will be wrong, but I think it's a bit early for Mark to be posting comments like "See? You said it couldn't be done but it has been" and everybody immediately starting to argue along partisan lines when these figures are an unconfirmed, still subject to change projection.

Reuters predicted that retail sales would grow by 0.2% in June. When the actual figures came out the retail sales figures dropped by 0.9% instead. Likewise, the market estimated only 120,000 jobs would be created. The actual figure was substantially higher, at 133,000.

My point is, don't crow over projections, because they're often wrong. Provoking argument and derision in this way is just deliberate to cause arguments, when there are much more important things people could be discussing.

Rana,

I make that point every time Mark brings up the budget. The expenses of the Iraq War are not counted in the budget. However, the economic benefits of the Iraq War (for example, all the taxes contractors pay from the unaccounted for emergency spending they've received) are counted on the receivables side of the budget. Its completely bogus accounting that only the gullible or willfully ignorant believe in. Which one are you, Mark?

Mark you do know that it is a policy goal of Bush to raise the debt/GDP, just like it was under Bush I and Reagan? The idea is to increase liquidity and keep unemployment low. Republicans use a kinda "newsspeak" term for this policy, they call it "pro-growth" financial policy. Now if you would like to debate the cost/benifits of pro-growth financial policy, we can do that, but your just purposely misleading people or don't really understand republican policy.

Brian,

Making FOREIGN products more expensive to us and makeing OUR products less expensive to THEM is good for our manufacturing base.

This is basic economics. Really.

*And Bane makes a rare weekend appearance*

Frog,
Don't be thick, you know as well as I that expenses are expenses; budgeted or not. the gap between expenses and revenue is closing.

3more,
Remember, you've lost all credibility on this subject. The annualized return on the S&P has been over 10.29% since its inception; the returns on investments are at the highest levels since the 1950's. "Real money terms" WTF is that supposed to mean? Heavily invested in Pesos, are we?

Sarah,
The actual numbers are significantly better than the original projections; even if these latest numbers prove inaccurate, the deficit is still much smaller than budgeted, and much better than the likes of 3more would ever admit.

The gorilla in the living room is Social Security; remember there is no crisis in Social Security Democrats?

Kahn,
Aren't these the same people that claim that we're buying too much Chinese products? If the dollar has lost value against the Euro, which it has, and the Chinese are holding their currency artificially low to compete with the US markets, aren't the Chinese the real losers here? Maybe they've put all their money in the S&P 500 and are losing their shirts as the 500 reached its all time high.

KBlech,
There was no surplus, moron. Why don't you join us here in the 21st century, or at least knock off the DU talking points, ignorant jack-ass.

and I'm off to the beach, surf's up, dude!

Since the gains in the market in the last month have made me over $40,000, that is cash in my pocket. Now it will actually buy me $40,000 worth of goods, no matter where they are manufactured. If American goods are cheaper than foreign, great. But no amount of arguing is gonna convince me that "I really have less money than I did a month ago"

For the record, Clinton never had a surplus, it was only a projection for the future and it was because of the tax cuts in the Reagan/Bush years, tempered some by the Bush tax hike just before he left office. That caused such an economic boom that it took it until near the end of Clinton's term to get to the bust from Clinton's tax increases. The same as the present boom will continue to give the next president credit for it no matter if it's dim or Republican. Of course if it's a Dim and they immediately raise taxes, then they'll kick in in time for the following Pres to have to take the fall for them, just as the present Pres did at the beginning of his term. But he's definitely got it headed the right way now.

"Brian,

Making FOREIGN products more expensive to us and makeing OUR products less expensive to THEM is good for our manufacturing base.

This is basic economics. Really." - Kahn

How is an increase in prices good for you? How do they know that you aren't going to use that savings to invest in your own buisness? Should established buisness have an advantage over those that don't yet exist? Also for employers and employees take a guess who makes more money. Not to mention that employers in the face of inflation will always find more slack in thier employees wages than in their profit margins, thus constantly eroding wages of the lower paid segment of the population. This is government manipulation of the money supply to benifit one group over the other(not free market), and it benifits the allready richer of the two. Republicans always talking about free markets except in cases where it benifits buisness interest, to me makes it look like they are a party of objectives and not principles, and the objectives are not the benefit of society as a whole, but the benifit of a few.

Ha Ha, projections from the W.H. Office of Management and Budget give me a break. Even Clinton never used these figures. He used the GAO's which have proven time and again to be non-partisan and more reliable.

Why are we even talking about defect reduction? Had Bush followed Clinton's plan he would have run surpluses for six years? Bush and the Republican Congress added almost 3 trillion dollars to the debt in this short period of time. We have spent 500 million in Iraq. Where is the rest of the money?

You better take a harder look at the economy. Yes the stock market is doing pretty good, but the dollar is at an all time low. That China made computer you are using is getting more expensive. Cheney's oil manipulation is also having an impact on the average American's pocket book. Health cares cost for companies are soaring, with no fix in sight, therefore manufacturing jobs are being shipped over seas. Keep looking at what the Republicans did to the middle class over the past six years through rose color glasses. Our children will pay for this Republican foolishness.

I also detest the mention of Kennedy every time the trickle down supply siders start talking. Kennedy advocated targeted tax cuts, not the Bush across the board.

robert,
Class envy and strata warfare are the tools of the communist/socialist useful idiots. Employers make more money than employees? No Way! Seriously, do you realize how adolescent you sound?

What ForEnforcement said; he's right, you know!

There was no surplus, it was an accounting trick.

"Instead we've had budget deficits every year as a result of Bush's tax cuts. Bush's tax cuts did not work. The only thing they did was put more money in the pockets of the wealthiest Americans and increase our national debt by trillions of dollars." Brian

And they claim to be intellectually superior, drinking wine, eating cheese. Brian, oh boy, you are truly stupid. No wonder you are a liberal.

kblack77,

Must you be reminded that clintons paper surplus was a badge of shame since it only reminds everyone that clinton did nothing to fight terrorism or stop bin laden in afghanistan. If clinton lived up to his oath as president and did what needed to be done, poof, no more surplus. The fruits of clintons paper surplus was a weakened military and intelligence and ultimatley 9/11. Thanks clinton for the suplus, thanks for nothing. Clinton was good at V chips and midnight basketball though. and monica.

Robert,

Its hard to argue with someone who hasn't studied economics and finance. Really.

Higher foreign prices make American goods more attractive by comparison. You really don't get that? So, a BMW looks pricy to me, but a Ford looks like a good deal. I can still buy a car. i can still pay the highr price if I want to.

You want our manufacturing base to do better, don't you? Or what?

Please - take a college class or two. Did you flunk this?

Kahn,

If having a weak dollar is so good for manufacturing, why are we having record trade deficits? Why does the European Union have a trade surplus with the United States when the value of the dollar is at an all time low against the Euro?

I fear your economy is a house of cards ready to fall down. Not total collapse but a sharp down turn is looming. You chose to ignore your huge debt that has gotten much worse due to the treasure you are blowing away in Iraq. You have a declining dollar, there is a reason for that.

Don’t you worry that the sub prime issue will eventually burst the balloon? People who have 'interest pay only' loans are facing higher interest rates and declining value for their houses. The people who had used their escalating values of their houses as an ATM machine to finance vacations, toys, cars and what not are facing severe financial reversals for their reckless spending due to the slowing housing market and subsequent lower house prices. I said it before and I will say it again, “Mark my words, Mark, the chickens will come home to roost”

Wake up and smell the coffee, the signs are clear.

Sure Canuck, whatever. Better hope not or you'll be eating snow. Our economy IS your economy.

That's why, Kahn, I said 'I fear your economy ...". We Canucks will be sucked into the vortex of the American downturn.

There ya go. But lowering the dollar, though painful to some is a good thing for the economy because it should lessen imports, increase exports, and encourage consumption of domestic products. Your economy and currency are so closely related I don't see it affecting that relationship in a negative way.

So - disagree?

FYI, most of this stuff happens independently of whoever is president.

neocon's comment about Jackoff Murtha-furka:

He should be impeaced, tried and hung for treason. The man is a complete waste of flesh, as is nearly every liberal.

neocon, did my parents put my twin brother up for adoption without telling me, or what? You and I think so much alike that we must be related. Are you from either SC or NY?

Dr. Dumbass,

You need to come in and join the adults, girlfriend. Clinton's recession was kicking in as he was leaving office, and, as others here have stated, his "surplus" was on paper, projected over a ten-year period. The dot-comm bubble burst, taking with it many of the jobs he created, and killing the "surplus." President Bush's tax cuts, for EVERYONE, increased tax revenues, created jobs, and made all clear-thinking people in this country, a lot happier. What did it do to you BDS-sufferers? It made you angrier; after all, how could this "idiot, draft-dodging, alcoholic coke-head" manage this? Oh yeah, it was Cheney!!! hahahahahahaha!!!

"Higher foreign prices make American goods more attractive by comparison. You really don't get that? So, a BMW looks pricy to me, but a Ford looks like a good deal. I can still buy a car. i can still pay the highr price if I want to.

You want our manufacturing base to do better, don't you? Or what?" - Kahn

Well fiscal policy effects alot more stuff than just international exchange rates, in fact it's a very minor consideration. But your telling me that I have a poor understanding of economics because I don't see the value that central planing will add to our industrial sector? Seriously just skip the economics books and please read some 20th century history and look at other governments attempts at central planning(mostly with a huge emphasis on creating a industrial powerhouse).

The free market has great way of creating just as much industrial investment as is needed. When someone thinks some manufactured good is really expensive, or someone believes that one will become expensive, and they meet someone with access to credit, they will invest in our manufacturing base theirselves.

"robert,
Class envy and strata warfare are the tools of the communist/socialist useful idiots. Employers make more money than employees? No Way! Seriously, do you realize how adolescent you sound?" - Dasein Libsbane

Giving the wealth of the rich to the poor is typically considered socialism/communism. You're defending giving the wealth of the poor to the rich, I think this is called serfdom. I'm advocating a free market system, I think this system is called freedom.

"Your economy and currency are so closely related I don't see it affecting that relationship in a negative way." Statement by Kahn

Our economy is closely intertwined but our currency has risen in relation to the US$ very sharply. It has gone from $0.75 to $0.95 in a two year period(that what's one $1CND buys in US currency).

As a result, our exports to you have taken a downturn expecially lumber since your housing downturn magnifies the problem. Lumber mills and pulp & paper mills have shutdown, throwing hundreds of people out of work just in my small province of NB alone.

But then again, I expect no tears shed by the Bushbots over that. The USA itself has lost a lot of manufacturing jobs due to China et al. So have we, it's hard to find a Canadian made barbecue, China has crippled the local manufacturers. hell, I am happy to find anything built in Canada or tne USA these days.

And I am not blaming Bush for any of this, it's just business.

robert - I'm not advocating central planning nor do I overestimate the value of it. I do have a business degree and graduated magna cum laude. I'm just describing the effects of currency fluctuations. You may want to reread my post with the negative filter turned off.

Canuck - the evening up of our currencies is, I think, a measure of how intertwined they ACTUALLY are. As to "Bushbots" oh well, so much for intelligent discussion. You show your ignorance again. And I do mean ignorance - put down the Socialist Workers Daily and turn off the hate. OK asshole?

Kahn, I am no asshole socialist and as for ignorance, the Bushbots take the cake for delusional insane rantings.

Kahn, by the remark about how it may weaken manufacturing and how that's bad and by the insults on my intelligence for questioning the policy, I took this to mean that you where defending the policy.

If you are defending the policy, I would say that it's definitely central planing, messing with lending rates messes with anything in the market that borrows money(duh), which is like every single person and every single buisness. But even though millions benifit from the policy, millions lose. It's nothing more than government redistribution of wealth and since your distorting free market conditions, resources get misallocated and the economy as a whole suffers.

If you aren't, help change the republican party, and get rid of this policy!!!

HOLY CRAP! I had no idea liberals were this stupid!

"wealth of the poor"????
"(Canada's) exports to you have taken a downturn expecially (sic) lumber since your housing downturn magnifies the problem" ????
"If having a weak dollar is so good for manufacturing, why are we having record trade deficits?"??????
And my personal favorite, the epitome of stuck-on-stupid, "Had Bush followed Clinton's plan he would have run surpluses for six years?(sic)"!!!

It's scary these people can vote, scarier still that they can procreate.