NRO's The Corner has the run down on a story which appeared on The New Republic blog alleging that a particular American soldier used his Bradley fiighting vehicle to cruelly kill Iraqi dogs - here's the gist of the story:
Criticism from knowledgeable veterans has mainly focused so far on the pseudonymous soldier's account of a sadistic private he knows who can apparently run down dogs with laser-like precision in a 30-ton Bradley fighting vehicle:
One particular day, he killed three dogs. He slowed the Bradley down to lure the first kill in, and, as the diesel engine grew quieter, the dog walked close enough for him to jerk the machine hard to the right and snag its leg under the tracks. The leg caught, and he dragged the dog for a little while, until it disengaged and lay twitching in the road. A roar of laughter broke out over the radio. Another notch for the book.
But as defense analyst Stuart Koehl writes in an e-mail to Goldfarb, that's nearly impossible:
I am looking now at a 1/32nd scale model of a Bradley, and I can say with some assurance that the driver's hatch is on the left side of the vehicle. Immediately to the driver's right is the engine compartment, the cooling grill of which rises above the level of the driver's hatch, making it impossible to see anything on the right side of the vehicle. Even if the driver was head-out, he still couldn't see anything to his right below the level of the top deck (all armored vehicles have significant blind spots close in, which is why they need dismounts to protect them from RPG guys in foxholes). So, if, as the blog says, the driver "twitched" the Bradley to the right, he must have used extrasensory perception in order to catch the dog. Because there's no way he knew the dog was even there.
This is not the first time I've come across alleged atrocity stories which are claimed to come from serving US soldiers - thus far in this war, each of these horrific stories has eventually proven mostly or entirely false...and I'll bet this latest falls just the same way. The problem is that the MSM has a story line about US combat troops - that they are ill-educated losers who become violent barbarians in the combat zone; so ingrained is this meme that when stories verifying the story line are absent, the MSM will just make them up...or swallow whole any story fed to them, regardless of how weak the source is.
I, for once, am sick and tired of this - I'm tired of the slanders being used against our troops, and I hope that eventually some of them file a class action lawsuit against the major MSM outfits over this. Normally, I have a strong aversion to lawsuits...but I can't think of any other way (outside of a two by four expertly employed) to get through the thick skulls of the MSM that the enemy are the bad guys, not our troops.
Posted by Mark Noonan at July 20, 2007 09:42 AM
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I wouldn't call The New Republic main stream media, first of all. It is not NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NYT it is an opinion magazine that is left leaning and everyone knows it. Is the National Reveiw part of the MSM. No, it is an opinion magazine that leans right. Now if this story is bogus then all hell should be brought down on TNR. Though I would think they would have learned their lesson from Stephen Glass, but who knows.
The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb has called on the blogsphere to refute this story, and has alot of anecdotal (sp?) evidence to refute it, but I don't think yet, there is uncontravertible evidence to refute the story.
I think I would have to agree with Mark, that some in the media, not all of the MSM, wants to pant the picture that many soldiers are barabrians killing for thrills. I don't know why they do it but it is sad and wrong for it stains the real heroes who serve with honor and valor in a horrible situation. Maybe they do it because of BDS, they hate the miliatry, they hate america, or they hate this war and telling stories like this convinces people this war is not worth it? I don' know.
Posted by: babyeatingliberal at July 20, 2007 10:06 AM
Anyone found making up a story or repeating an unsubstantiated story regarding one of our soldiers should be fined, publically ridiculed and maybe spend a month in the war zone. I can't believe what people will do to make our soldiers, our President and this war look bad.
They should all read Brigette Gabriel's book about people who let every faction into the Lebanese government. Those factions take over and the first to face the death squads were those that didn't support the original government. Their rational was that if they didn't support the one they had; they certainly aren't going to support us so Kill them which they did.
Dindy
Posted by: Dindy at July 20, 2007 10:12 AM
With such a small percentage of Democrats, and especially very liberal Democrats having served in the military there is a very bad lack of knowledge about our military on the left. Few understand the commitment. Few understand tactics and technology. In short, this lack of experience and knowledge leaves them open to anti-American propaganda of every sort.
They don't know any better. So we must "prove" that we are good, innocent, not evil, whatever over and over and over. BEL's apparently "neutral" post above illustrates this. It is actually a post of ignorance. And though not evil or traitorous or what have you, it does show a predisposition to believe bad things about our troops until PROVEN otherwise.
Posted by: Kahn at July 20, 2007 10:17 AM
Posted by: babyeatingliberal at July 20, 2007 10:22 AM
kahn-
I would have to agree with you regarding my personal experience. I have no idea what it is like to serve in the military. I have no idea what it is like to put on that uniform and be part of something like that. I would imagine it brings out the best in an individual.
But regarding the alleged stories above I can also believe those types of things occurring in very limited instances. For even though these soldiers & marines are our best and brightest they are for the most part KIDS, exposed to horrible situations wherein they live with death and destruction on daily basis. Living like this I believe can cause some, few, to devalue human life.
I do have to admit that when I read these stories I did believe them, one, because of what I said above and two, because I am against this war and think it may be causing great KIDS to do horrible things. I shouldn't think like that I know but we all can't be perfect, but I will try to be suspicous of this type of reporting.
Thank you Kahn for opening my eyes a bit.
Posted by: babyeatingliberal at July 20, 2007 10:41 AM
one and two are really the same thing duh
Posted by: babyeatingliberal at July 20, 2007 10:48 AM
It is amazing that liberals scream to high heavans when a person charged with a crime is presumed guilty unless that person is a bush administration official, some one in the military, or a successful business man. babyeatingliberal, you show that bias right in your post. "I believed it to be true because do have to admit that when I read these stories I did believe them, one, because of what I said above and two, because I am against this war". Your opposition to the war has clouded your judgement. Earlier in yoru post you call our soliders great kids. Well, they are adults and great adults do not malicously kill for pleasure. Your entire position is built upon either a flawed assumption of our military or a flawed assumption of the way the world works.
I condiser The Republic not to be part of the true MSM but they do recieve support from it. Just as the silence from "average everyday muslims" helps embolden terrorists so to does the lack of denunciation from the Left emboldens the more extreme members of the ideology.
Posted by: Dudleyatlaw at July 20, 2007 11:00 AM
BEL,
Well, we have to at least congratulate you on being forthright about your views - but I do think that, perhaps, you might want to go and meet some of the troops...I'm sure there's a base somewhere near you and I'll bet they have days where they allow civilians on base to see how things work.
For the most part, they are, of course, just like you and me - but they are also a cut above in the sense that they really have volunteered and are ready to lay down their lives for others.
Posted by: Mark Noonan at July 20, 2007 11:22 AM
Babyeatingliberal
Being 'KIDS' have nothing to do with it. If anything, the military makes a person become more mature, more rapidly. I joined the Navy at 17 and at 19 was the Watch Petty Officer in the Combat Information Center of the biggest Aircraft Carrier in the Navy. You think I was just a 'kid' playing a game? I felt as if what I was doing was an honor and I loved doing it. It certainly didn't make me cruel and wanting to kill dogs. Most military people, I believe, do it because they think it's patriotic and that's what they want to do. Some do it as a job, and it shows up in the ones whining about being 'burnt out'. When I worked, my job was full time. Even if I wasn't at the manufacturing plant where I worked, I was on call. I didn't get a year off for every year I worked. The people that are in the military for the 'right' reason aren't whining about their time 'over there'. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the young and middle level officers are fighting for open slots on the battle field, a sure way to insure promotions. If you think being in Iraq is 'wrong', where do you propose we fight the terrorists? in New York? Washington, DC?
If you want to question motives, question the motive of a person that would make up a story just to make the soldiers look bad. Why would they do that?
.
Posted by: ForEnforcement at July 20, 2007 01:31 PM
This bogus story now makes more sense given what is now showing over at http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3210.html
Seems that now the DNC has moved on from the barbaric destruction of unborn babies to a higher species...innocent animals. And all this from Sen. Robert "KKK" Byrd. Go figure.
Posted by: voiceofreason at July 20, 2007 02:58 PM
The neoconservative New Republic is making stuff up? Again? Can't happen. Neocons never make stuff up.
Posted by: longz at July 20, 2007 06:37 PM
MSM--who even pays attention to them anymore?
Why, Dr. Dumbass, of course...
Posted by: keefer at July 20, 2007 07:58 PM
First, anonymous stories, especially of the type "I know somebody who has heard that" should always be treated with scepticism.
But to me, Stuart Koehl hasn't debunked this story at all: the story doesn't tell that the dog was on the right side of the Bradley. It could be on the left and still get caught. Because when making a hard turn to the right with a Bradley, the back of the vehicle turns to the left.
See this video on YouTube.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje at July 20, 2007 10:11 PM
Thanks, WVO, for pointing that out to all of us knuckle-dragging, uneducated Bushbots. It's settled then--not only do we kill innocent civilians, foment terrorism, and steal Iraq's oil--we are also doggie killers. We're so ashamed. But thanks for clueing us in--your life-partner must be proud.
Dr. Dumbass, don't you just marvel at WVO's intellect?
Posted by: keefer at July 20, 2007 11:14 PM
keffertje, watch me drive my Bradley, you chihuahua.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje at July 21, 2007 09:13 AM
When did we start sending "KIDS" to war? The last I heard, we sent highly trained professional warriors to war, and what's more they are proud of their elite status. Kids? Why can't you quit demeaning the proud men and woemn who are protecting YOU and yours? I sm so tired of the smug dismissive sneers aimed at those who make up the finest military ever seen. I am pretty sure if you tried this in person, any one of these KIDS would kick your sorry behind.
This dog-killing thing is an unsubstantiated claim from a biased source, designed to portray American fighters as brutal thugs. No wonder it is accepted by the likes of bel. I'm waiting for "We Don't Need No Steeeking Constitution" Murtha to weigh in and pronounce these guys guilty.
You all are just the Usual Suspects, mouthing the usual anti-American BS.
Posted by: Almiranta at July 22, 2007 08:13 PM
Order Matt and Mark's book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble
I wouldn't call The New Republic main stream media, first of all. It is not NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NYT it is an opinion magazine that is left leaning and everyone knows it. Is the National Reveiw part of the MSM. No, it is an opinion magazine that leans right. Now if this story is bogus then all hell should be brought down on TNR. Though I would think they would have learned their lesson from Stephen Glass, but who knows.
The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb has called on the blogsphere to refute this story, and has alot of anecdotal (sp?) evidence to refute it, but I don't think yet, there is uncontravertible evidence to refute the story.
I think I would have to agree with Mark, that some in the media, not all of the MSM, wants to pant the picture that many soldiers are barabrians killing for thrills. I don't know why they do it but it is sad and wrong for it stains the real heroes who serve with honor and valor in a horrible situation. Maybe they do it because of BDS, they hate the miliatry, they hate america, or they hate this war and telling stories like this convinces people this war is not worth it? I don' know.
Anyone found making up a story or repeating an unsubstantiated story regarding one of our soldiers should be fined, publically ridiculed and maybe spend a month in the war zone. I can't believe what people will do to make our soldiers, our President and this war look bad.
They should all read Brigette Gabriel's book about people who let every faction into the Lebanese government. Those factions take over and the first to face the death squads were those that didn't support the original government. Their rational was that if they didn't support the one they had; they certainly aren't going to support us so Kill them which they did.
Dindy
With such a small percentage of Democrats, and especially very liberal Democrats having served in the military there is a very bad lack of knowledge about our military on the left. Few understand the commitment. Few understand tactics and technology. In short, this lack of experience and knowledge leaves them open to anti-American propaganda of every sort.
They don't know any better. So we must "prove" that we are good, innocent, not evil, whatever over and over and over. BEL's apparently "neutral" post above illustrates this. It is actually a post of ignorance. And though not evil or traitorous or what have you, it does show a predisposition to believe bad things about our troops until PROVEN otherwise.
paint the picture....
kahn-
I would have to agree with you regarding my personal experience. I have no idea what it is like to serve in the military. I have no idea what it is like to put on that uniform and be part of something like that. I would imagine it brings out the best in an individual.
But regarding the alleged stories above I can also believe those types of things occurring in very limited instances. For even though these soldiers & marines are our best and brightest they are for the most part KIDS, exposed to horrible situations wherein they live with death and destruction on daily basis. Living like this I believe can cause some, few, to devalue human life.
I do have to admit that when I read these stories I did believe them, one, because of what I said above and two, because I am against this war and think it may be causing great KIDS to do horrible things. I shouldn't think like that I know but we all can't be perfect, but I will try to be suspicous of this type of reporting.
Thank you Kahn for opening my eyes a bit.
one and two are really the same thing duh
It is amazing that liberals scream to high heavans when a person charged with a crime is presumed guilty unless that person is a bush administration official, some one in the military, or a successful business man. babyeatingliberal, you show that bias right in your post. "I believed it to be true because do have to admit that when I read these stories I did believe them, one, because of what I said above and two, because I am against this war". Your opposition to the war has clouded your judgement. Earlier in yoru post you call our soliders great kids. Well, they are adults and great adults do not malicously kill for pleasure. Your entire position is built upon either a flawed assumption of our military or a flawed assumption of the way the world works.
I condiser The Republic not to be part of the true MSM but they do recieve support from it. Just as the silence from "average everyday muslims" helps embolden terrorists so to does the lack of denunciation from the Left emboldens the more extreme members of the ideology.
BEL,
Well, we have to at least congratulate you on being forthright about your views - but I do think that, perhaps, you might want to go and meet some of the troops...I'm sure there's a base somewhere near you and I'll bet they have days where they allow civilians on base to see how things work.
For the most part, they are, of course, just like you and me - but they are also a cut above in the sense that they really have volunteered and are ready to lay down their lives for others.
Babyeatingliberal
Being 'KIDS' have nothing to do with it. If anything, the military makes a person become more mature, more rapidly. I joined the Navy at 17 and at 19 was the Watch Petty Officer in the Combat Information Center of the biggest Aircraft Carrier in the Navy. You think I was just a 'kid' playing a game? I felt as if what I was doing was an honor and I loved doing it. It certainly didn't make me cruel and wanting to kill dogs. Most military people, I believe, do it because they think it's patriotic and that's what they want to do. Some do it as a job, and it shows up in the ones whining about being 'burnt out'. When I worked, my job was full time. Even if I wasn't at the manufacturing plant where I worked, I was on call. I didn't get a year off for every year I worked. The people that are in the military for the 'right' reason aren't whining about their time 'over there'. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the young and middle level officers are fighting for open slots on the battle field, a sure way to insure promotions. If you think being in Iraq is 'wrong', where do you propose we fight the terrorists? in New York? Washington, DC?
If you want to question motives, question the motive of a person that would make up a story just to make the soldiers look bad. Why would they do that?
.
This bogus story now makes more sense given what is now showing over at http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3210.html
Seems that now the DNC has moved on from the barbaric destruction of unborn babies to a higher species...innocent animals. And all this from Sen. Robert "KKK" Byrd. Go figure.
The neoconservative New Republic is making stuff up? Again? Can't happen. Neocons never make stuff up.
MSM--who even pays attention to them anymore?
Why, Dr. Dumbass, of course...
First, anonymous stories, especially of the type "I know somebody who has heard that" should always be treated with scepticism.
But to me, Stuart Koehl hasn't debunked this story at all: the story doesn't tell that the dog was on the right side of the Bradley. It could be on the left and still get caught. Because when making a hard turn to the right with a Bradley, the back of the vehicle turns to the left.
See this video on YouTube.
Thanks, WVO, for pointing that out to all of us knuckle-dragging, uneducated Bushbots. It's settled then--not only do we kill innocent civilians, foment terrorism, and steal Iraq's oil--we are also doggie killers. We're so ashamed. But thanks for clueing us in--your life-partner must be proud.
Dr. Dumbass, don't you just marvel at WVO's intellect?
keffertje, watch me drive my Bradley, you chihuahua.
When did we start sending "KIDS" to war? The last I heard, we sent highly trained professional warriors to war, and what's more they are proud of their elite status. Kids? Why can't you quit demeaning the proud men and woemn who are protecting YOU and yours? I sm so tired of the smug dismissive sneers aimed at those who make up the finest military ever seen. I am pretty sure if you tried this in person, any one of these KIDS would kick your sorry behind.
This dog-killing thing is an unsubstantiated claim from a biased source, designed to portray American fighters as brutal thugs. No wonder it is accepted by the likes of bel. I'm waiting for "We Don't Need No Steeeking Constitution" Murtha to weigh in and pronounce these guys guilty.
You all are just the Usual Suspects, mouthing the usual anti-American BS.