The mix of teenagers, party, irresponsible adults and indifferent citizenry who didn't demand that the police shut the party down - that is what caused this to happen.

Posted by Mark Noonan on June 13, 2007 12:54 AM

Then you also have the fact they live in a society that glorifies and upholds the right for citizens to bear arms against one another. Take the weapons out of the equation and you would have no fatalities at "The Grown & Sexy Graduation Party".

You seem to be more outraged over the 'Party' than the 'Shootings'.

Blaming the guns again are you CO?

I have to say I agree with CO. We drink from the age of 18 (legally, although most people start about 13ish) and we don't have the same fatalities at parties. Stopping kids having alcohol makes it worse,we have a binge drinking culture, particularly in Scotland but if we followed Europe then perhaps we wouldd have more respect for drink and not go mad when we are out. Parties don't allow people to kill people guns, knives etc do. As for the neighbours reporting the party, it was a graduation party people are allowed to have parties as long as they are not too loud. If people didn't have guns then they would not be able to use them when they are drunk or upset, alcohol and sex are the least of the problem. Kids shouldn't be able to access guns especially if they are going to a party.

geez, when I was brought up I was told by MY PARENTS that guns were to be respected, I was responsible for my own actions, and being thoughtful and considerate of others was the golden rule.

I wonder if we focused more on better parenting and personal responsibility and less on blaming inanimate objects for our problems, it just may become a better society. Huh?

A similar thing happened here in Atlanta recently; only at this shooting, the victims were two 16 year olds. The big problem here, and I don't know if you have this problem in Vegas, is that there is a large movement of people, particularly in the black community, that refuse to cooperate with police. So, not only are those two teenage girls dead, it is almost impossible to actually find the killers.

The problem isn't the party itself or guns in general; it's this "us against them" mentality that exists in low income areas of our major cities. The problem is with the formation of criminal gangs who funnel weapons to underage and likewise unfit people.

Blaming the party for the violence is akin to blaming the soccer game for the ensuing riot. I've been to a few loud, rowdy parties in my day (which was quite recently), and we've never had a problem in violence, though people were likewise intoxicated and looking for sex. The problem is with rotten individuals and their rotten mindset.

Wait a second. 21 is the legal drinking age. This whole thing was criminal. Were guns misused? Absolutely. But so could a knife, a jar of gasoline, or a car.

I think the real problem here is a culture of no personal responsibility. A culture brought up with the government as ultimate breadwinner and authority figure. A culture where fathers are rarely there and the mothers get food and money from the government. Where the kids brief direction and instruction comes from their occasional brushes with the law.

Who’s to blame? Lyndon Johnson and his "Great Society". It was his way of controlling the black vote (through addiction to government largesse) after Republicans and northern Democrats voted in Civil and Voting rights.

Just out of interest why is your drinking age 21? Just wondered if there is any specific reason why?

Just out of interest why is your drinking age 21? Just wondered if there is any specific reason why? - weefee

National Institutes of Health (NIH) research shows that the brain is not fully developed until about the age of 21. The latest research from Duke University shows that alcohol affects adolescents differently than it does adults and can cause irreparable brain damage to youth.

Data collected from 15- to 16-year-old students in 26 European countries and the U.S. shows that a greater percentage of youth in almost all European countries reports drinking in the past 30 days.

In many of these countries, respondents report binge drinking (five or more drinks in a row). Roughly half of the European countries have intoxication rates among youth that exceed the intoxication rates in the U.S.

Any other stupid questions?

neocon - and it was also about driving deaths among teenagers. Sharply down since we went to 21. But still sadly too high.

After my son got a ticket last year, I had him do a Google (well actually Alta Vista since I don't use Google) search on "Teen killed in Crash" - 1.5 million hits.

1.5 million hits.

So - that makes me think..... moving the drinking age to 21 is much more effective at saving lives than gun laws. As gun deaths are actually relatively rare (despite news coverage) and drunk driving or at least impaired driving is far more deadly.

So Canada and Great Britain - you might want to reconsider the effectiveness of your laws. You criticize us for wanting to maintain our constituionaly protected rights, which you don't have. Yet you maintain drinking laws that have been PROVEN to be harmful and to cause deaths.

Yes?

I just wondered it wasn't a criticsm, I don't see why its a stupid question because most countries have a lower limit than that. So stop being an arrogant ar$e I apologise for showing an interest in American culture and laws etc.

Binge drinking isn't a big deal in countries where kids are introduced to alcohol when they are young. I've been drinking since I was 13 and admittedly occasionaly go on a binge but I know even if they raised the age here it wouldn't work, we'd still drink.

weefee - I haven't seen criticism in your posts.

Actually, if any of you would do your research, drinking age has little to do with why driving deaths among teenagers is down. Since the 21 age limit has gone into effect, seatbelt laws and airbag requirements have increased, as has vehicle safety.

Additionally, the driving age in the US is lower than in almost every other country (17 or 18 in many developed countries). Studies have shown that between the ages of 16 and 17, one in three teenagers will be involved in a car crash. At the age of 17, that number declines drastically.

So perhaps if we lowered our drinking age and raised the driving age, we could actually get somewhere on this issue.

weefee,

Didn't meant to cause you any angst, but allowing young teens to experiment with alcohol is just stupid. They are not mature enough, nor wise enough to use it responsibly.

I introduced (not be allowing them to drink) and educated both of my now older children about alcohol when they were approx. 10 or 11, knowing that they would be exposed to it by their peers. I told them that it was an adult beverage and when consumed moderately and responsibly, can be a fun way to relax and entertain.

Both of them did of course drink before the age of 21, but by knowing the hazards of alcohol, neither one of them ran afoul, had a problem and now are able to pass that onto their children.

Personal responsibility and better parenting (not saying that I am a better parent at all) are the keys and foundation to a better society that no laws or legislation can replace.

weefee,

Didn't meant to cause you any angst, but allowing young teens to experiment with alcohol is just stupid. They are not mentally or physically mature enough, nor wise enough, nor to use it responsibly.

I introduced (not be allowing them to drink) and educated both of my now older children about alcohol when they were approx. 10 or 11, knowing that they would be exposed to it by their peers. I told them that it was an adult beverage and when consumed moderately and responsibly, can be a fun way to relax and entertain.

Both of them did of course drink before the age of 21, but by knowing the hazards of alcohol, neither one of them ran afoul, had a problem and now are able to pass that onto their children.

Personal responsibility and better parenting (not saying that I am a better parent at all) are the keys and foundation to a better society that no laws or legislation can replace.

Kahn I see where you are going with the drink driving thing although the number of drink drivers caught in Scotland has fallen and a third of those caught were 41 and over. BTW the previous comment was for neocon, your post hadn't appeared for some reason.

I can see the merits of a higher age limit but I do think that it wouldn't be accepted here. I mean 18 isn't that bad an age for drinking, yet we still drink even earlier, kids as young as 11 drink. I think part of the problem is our culture of drinking it has existed for decades. It is especially true of industrial areas like where I live because people see their dads and grandads do it so they do it too. Its part of working class culture that has spread to affluent areas too. We have problems with drink I admit that but how to solve it is a problem because people will not be happy if it is restricted and like all things they will find a way round.

Neocon I agree kids should be educated about it, my mum allowed me to drink on the condition that it was in a house and that it was moderate amounts. She did this because she knew I would drink anyway and this way would stop me causing trouble. I never actually started binge drinking until I was legal, mainly because I can never get into clubs without id. I actually am practically tee total now having rid myself of the desire to drink unless I'm clubbing although even then I only have a couple. I'm bored of it now and i'm not even 21 yet. I know a good few people who used to drink when they were younger because it was 'forbidden' but as soon as they were legal practically gave it up. I think maybe if we followed France's idea of wine with a meal from a relativly young age, it would not appear taboo and may help kids to have more respect and less desire for it.

Weefee,
just last month this was reported in The Evening News;

"A league table of drink-related incapacity benefit claimants shows the Capital tenth in the UK.
Inverclyde and Glasgow take first and second slots, and six out of the top ten places are in Scotland.
The figures show there are 1060 people on incapacity benefit through alcohol problems in Edinburgh - equivalent to 0.34 per cent of the working age population."

The question of Constitutionality comes into play with the drinking age at 21; being that the age of majority is 18. But, the Courts in all likelihood won’t visit the subject as the downside to this particular Constitutional right is seriously tragic.

One other thing, drink in Scotland is disproportionately alcohol purchased for consumption at home; more than any other part of UK.

Being from a German family I, too was taught young to drink; this isn’t the good thing you believe it to be; it causes more “drunk at home” situations, which leads to higher incidents of alcoholism (alcoholics are most likely to drink alone.)

Yeah we have serious problems with drink but I don't know what we can do about it. For one thing it is deeply ingrained in our culture and as you say raising the drinking age would be weird and not possible as we can vote etc at 18. I live in a relativly deprived area where binge drinking is extremly common as are drugs and gang fights so I fully agree with your points. Glasgow in particular has a huge problem obviously mainly in the most deprived areas, in some parts of Glasgow life expectancy is 54, which is obviously third world life expectancy.

With regards to the amount of alcohol bought to be consumed in the home that is mainly due to it being part of Scottish culture. Known as a 'cairy oot' (Carry out)it is part of drinking life, mainly because house parties are very common and most people drink before going out to save money. Until recently apparently you couldn't get a carry out in England, I think that its just a different way of drinking, we like a party and they go to the pub.

There is no way that they can increase the drinking age so we have to find other methods. The problem is the culture of drink in Scotland and how we address it. At the moment the Scottish Executive don't seem to be getting any where with this, raising the price was suggest as was banning Buckie (Buckfast - a cheap and nasty tonic wine the drink of choice for underage neds and some grown ups alike, with a hint of sweaty feet).

Weefee,
You make “Buckie” sound delightful.

My point is not to criticize the Scots in their drink habits; Lord knows I’ll be in my garden in about 5 hours with a snifter of Oban and an Oliva Churchill. (Single-malt is imbibed from snifters by the “in” crowd here, not neat in “old-fashioned” glasses as my father would have.)

My point is that we look at drink, and specifically underage alcohol abuse differently here; we argue incessantly weather or not parents should be giving drink to their teens in their own homes, and if they should provide alcohol to their teens friends in the form of parties because they’re going to “do it anyway!”

If I may, I believe Mark’s point is that we should have zero tolerance for underage drink, we should, as a society and as a culture enforce standards of personal responsibility. Adults are supposed to enforce the rules, if not by example then by discipline. Just because I have a scotch whisky in the evening doesn’t mean my teenaged daughter should, would or will have a drink until she’s legally able to do so on her own.

Scotland’s drink problems are cultural and endemic; when the culture believes it to be a problem then the kids won’t see “dads and grandads do it”

I’m actually surprised that you didn’t challenge the “drunk once a week” as a definition of drink problem; most Scots I know think that’s not a problem; only a temporary respite from the boredom of daily life. “Now, getting drunk NIGHTLY! That’s a drink problem!” my Scot friend would say to me.

I have to admit I never picked up on that, I probably assumed it was nightly drinking! That's a normal view for many of my friends who will go out on a Thursday because it's student night and then they'll go out at the weekend because it's the weekend. For many going out is synonomous with getting drunk. I have to say most Scots do think that a drink problem is drinking every night. I don't have this problem because I hate the taste of alcohol, although when I was younger I did it because everyone else did but now I am more mature and just say no. Peer pressure is a huge problem.

I definitely agree that parents should never give their kids friends alcohol it is not their place to do so. I don't know where I stand on giving kids alcohol, obviously not having kids I don't really know, in an ideal world my kids wouldn't drink but if they had to I'd rather they were safe and I knew what they were drinking.

It hard for me to look at it from your point of view because I am so used to our attitudes to drink and the culture here. I definitely think more has to be done about underage drinking but how we challenge the beliefs and culture surrounding drink I don't know.

co etall,
This is in part the result of illegal immigration, large sections of our society who wont assimilate, this includes inner city residents.

This was either a black, or hispanic party.
Both of these cultures are full of gang related violence.

co
You need to step to downtown toronto,or montreal. YOU may be surprised the amount of violence you will find there and rising fast.

Guns dont kill people....people kill people.
I live in the burbs and funny we dont have murders at our graduation parties.

LA COUNTY california = 2000 MURDERS a year.
you figure it out!

Dasein,

That is about it - if we had a properly run society governed by adults who were unafraid to act like adults, then if you had a case of scotch and a crate of uzis on that street it wouldn't have mattered at all because there would have been no teenagers around to take advantage of the situation.

What a racist post by FmrMarine. "These people were either black or hispanic" says who? Everyone who shoots a gun is now a minority? My god, what a stereotypical/racist point of view.

Is Colon right?
Do we need to start cracking down on those gang-bangers from Kennebunkport and Carmel-by-the-Sea? Stop screwing around with the tattooed, armed, felons and hoodlums in ethnically monolithic neighborhoods and start concentrating our efforts on saving people that really matter?

Thanks colon, its people like you that will truly make this a color-blind society; soon we’ll see only white people.

I’ll just bet some of your “best friends are colored” aren’t they? (/sarcasm)