no Roe = states rights.

some will, some won't.

Ohio,

I was a little surprised, during the GOP debate last night, that not one candidate (I expected at least Giuliani) mentioned that, setting aside one's personal beliefs about abortion, Roe v. Wade was simply bad constitutional law. As you note, if Roe is overturned, it will simply revert back to the states, where "some will and some won't".

If abortion is legal, than why isnt murder? It all comes down to our choice doesnt it? If someone is threatening my life, couldn't I kill that person and then claim I made that choice for the well-being of my health?

This is more ridiculous than usual, Mark.

Your evidence of the anti-abortion mood of the nation is a 'poll' performed by an anti-abortion group that in reality is a push-poll complete with loaded and leading questions. This entirely biased poll is your proof that America is really anti-abortion.

On the other hand, you reject out of hand any real poll from objective sources such as Gallup that show President Bush at record low approval ratings. Apparently, these polls are biased and skewed.

Makes perfect sense to me...

The level of hypocricy demonstrated by the extreme ("kook") fundementalist right is astounding. Its all about less big government unless it's a topic that they feel needs goverment intervention... like say, gay marriage. Right Mark? Can you justify this egregious hypocracy?

If only the hypocracy stopped there... You profess to be a supporter of this "culture of life", but that seems to be limited to a human being still inside the womb. Where is your concern for life when waving your right-wing pom poms for sending more young men and women to fight and die in Iraq and for attacking Iran?

Retired:

GOP candidates do seem to get bogged down on the morality, rather than the practicality of overturning Roe. As we discussed, practically speaking, the issue will simply revert to the states wherein elected legislators will make the decision as it was pre-Roe.

However, on a Federal level, the removal of "privacy" in abortion (privacy is not constitutional) will predictibly lead further loss of civil rights.

For example, gun registration & disemination of same, further erosion of 4th admendment rights, possible exposure of personal medical info to insurance or employer inqueries.

Around all this swirls the fact that abortion will not stop, but rather some states will & some won't.

This is a complex issue which demands thoughtful, insightful analysis.

where do you get this stuff? If you have proof that the abortion industry is making a huge profit off of abortions and that is the primary reason that abortion is legal - present it. And I mean actual facts - not vague assertions - cold hard documented facts.

The reason Mark that most people support the right to have an abortion - is that um-- that most people support the right to have an abortion...

greater then 60% of pregancies end in natural abortions (otherwise known as miscarriages) most of the time this happens before the mother even knows

If nature induces so many abortions - why can't people , its all natural after all

kblack,

Abortion is a major money maker; think about it, kblack, if we're doing 1.3 million of them in a year and if each were even as low as $100 that works out to $130,000,000.00...of course, it costs more than that, and that isn't even the half of it; there aren't that many abortion providers (real doctors wouldn't think of doing elective abortions...you've got to be some sort of amoral, barely-qualified and can't-build-a-real-practice sort of schlub to put out an abortion shingle), so that pile of cash is being divvied up by a relatively small number of people.

In order to protect this massive amount of money - coming from something that hardly ever needs to be done - the people who profit off it donate heavily to NARAL, Planned Parenthood and pro-abortion politicians (overwhelmingly Democrat, though a very few Republicans get money from them).

Amp,

Its the difference between you falling off a cliff and someone pushing you off a cliff.

Amp

By that argument all murder is justified because 100% of life ends in death.

If nature induces so much death, why can't people, it's all natural after all

Can you show me evidence that Abortion is the same as Slavery?

And what is wrong with allowing Women to choose what they want?

No. Um. REAL numbers - not just something you made up. You know -ones that come from somewhere other than your mind..
And again - those organizations you mentioned are NON_PROFIT. If they wanted to make a profit - they could easily become a corporation and make profits.

Chipping away bit by bit is perfectly fine with me as that is what the left has been doing to what is good and righteous for a long time.

The thing we fail to remember so often is that like so many issues they champion, the left attempts to make colorful or grey that which is black and white...a clear tactic of the devil. "Look, it really isn't murder. After all, you really don't know the person who's heart stopped beating. In fact, you should really look at it from the perspective of the woman carrying the thing with the beating heart. Just think about it. She has according to the right to the pursuit of happiness and to bring this unwanted thing with the beating heart would certainly ruin that."

Why do I say it is the work of the devil?

John 10:10 says: "The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. I have come so that they may have life abundantly." - Jesus

Tell me what part of an abortion doesn't steal, kill or destroy. Those affects are felt by the unborn and in many (not so often published) the well being of the mother and other family members and friends.

To be calous and ambivalent to this is a symptom of a lack of attention to the value of life. Oh, where is the global warming crowd that is so overly concerned about our well being and ability to exist into the future?

VOR,

Good, Very Good post!!!

Thanks!

Jeremiah

For me, the issue of abortion lies in the question of when an embryo becomes a human being. I rule of thumb for this situation that i like to follow is the formation of what I believe separates humans from animals: higher brain function. In humans, higher brain function develops after the first trimester, and it is after that point that I believe that abortion becomes murder. Before that point, abortion is not murder. It's by no means a perfect assessment, but it works for me and takes a pragmatic look at the situation.

Rana:

Your point is well taken and is very consistent among many. One thing I would point out though is that it is possible that the creator of life deems that life begins at conception. If that is so then we have again gotten it wrong.

This was sealed for me when my wife was pregnant with our first child and we watched a video about what happens medically to start the formation of an embryo. If you haven't seen it, then I would encourage you to do so as you will be shocked and in quite awe that ANYONE is able to get pregnant. The amount of things that have to be absolutely lined up and perfect make the odds of a pregnancy almost insurmountable and helps me solidify that each conception is a miracle. Once I landed there, then it was a no-brainer that my determination of what is/is not life was already decided, and not by own mind and world/humanity viewpoint.

I think far too often this view is "safer" because there is a relative disconnect from what is going on inside and thus, it becomes easier to make it a sterile event. AND, that is quite true, but I just have a very hard time believing that it is ok to stop something that would ultimately be the ultimate creation of all time, a human being.

God loves everyone and has ultimate purpose for everyone He creates.

So, enter the anti-war crowd now to try and muddy the waters in an apples and oranges comparison.

On the other hand, you reject out of hand any real poll from objective sources such as Gallup that show President Bush at record low approval ratings. Apparently, these polls are biased and skewed.

SteveGAY,

We do not reject the Gallup poll--did you not see the thread here titled "The 'mandate' that aint?" It discusses the Gallup poll, and the President's "record low" approval numbers. It also discusses Congress's rapidly falling approval numbers, which are lower than the President's.

So, Steve, the only thing skewed is your pea-brain...

The reason Mark that most people support the right to have an abortion - is that um-- that most people support the right to have an abortion...

You accuse Mark of making "vague assertions," then you follow your accusation with a vague assertion. Explain why you don't practice what you preach, Dr. Rerun.

Glad to see you posted--I was worried that you were headed here to MD. I know I've beaten up on you pretty hard, and you're--not your--not happy with the treatment, but I don't want you to fly off the handle. It wouldn't be wise...

voiceofreason-

Your point is taken, but, seeing as I don't believe in god, fails to convince me. However, I would like to see the bible verse that states that life begins at conception... I skimmed Leviticus, and all I could find were references to post-birth children.

If nature induces so many abortions - why can't people , its all natural after all

If nature does it, it's natural. If people do it, well...it's not.

Are you a frickin' moron, or what, Amp?

Rana, if you don't believe in God, why are you skimming the Bible?

Rana dosent believe in God, big suprise there. If you have no one to ansewer to I can see why you belive the way that you do, I honestly feel for people like you that see nothing after this life. Im trying to imagine what that would be like to have no moral beacon and I think that I would probly think as you do, who cares their is no god anyway... Fortunatly for me I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior, I do believe that there is right and there is wrong in this world and there are consequences to peoples actions, god bless you and help you in your journey whether you believe in that or not.

I say lets show a few abortions on tv, a soft expose on '60 Minutes' which highlights that the procedure is akin to removing a mole or excising a cyst. After all, an unborn baby is just a lump of tissue, right?

I enjoyed this one so much, I gave it a digg.

And again - those organizations you mentioned are NON_PROFIT. If they wanted to make a profit - they could easily become a corporation and make profits.

Posted by: kblack77

kblack your posts reveal a remarkable naivite not to mention a complete ignorance of business and taxes. You are a frequent source of amusement to all of us. Please continue

Great reponse to my post Mel and Mark,

Answer: They do and its called various things

1) War (see 100,000 dead in Iraq)
2) Denial of health care to people with treatable ailments
3) Inept emergency planning and execution (ie how many died after Katrina)
4) Capital Punishment

Why do you only apply such standards to abortion????

Rana:

I am quite certain that I can't find an exact scripture that states so, yet, I can provide an ample supply of scripture that makes clear, at least to me, that God cares about every life and that each life has purpose....even for those who are at a point where they don't believe.

So...let me do that tomorrow and leave with this now. The Bible clearly states that the event of experiencing God first starts with an inquisitive mind and a void in the soul. God then reveals Himself to each individual in different ways. I am not surprised you don't believe in God as there are many of the same bent, but I would venture to say instead of athiests, they are more likely laziests or agnostics. Not an insult, but a statement of a person's life where they don't really see a need to submit to or believe in a higher power. There are others that blame a God they don't believe in indirectly by saying things like "How can a loving God let that happen?" I will answer that as well.

Anyway, more tomorrow and if you want to take this off the blog and discuss elsewhere, that is fine with me.

my only point is that if the people who worked for non-profit organizations wanted to make more money - and greed was their primary motivation - there are clearly better ways of doing it. Do you know anything about non-profits? The fact that the vast majority of them are supported by donations. Of course I realize that non-profits can have endowments that are considerable (the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation , Howard Hughes Medical Institute) But these are charities and include others such as Goodwill, The Red Cross, the WWW.

All things you associate with huge revenue and corporate greed huh? If having a non-profit organization were the best way to make money - wouldn't you expect things like big companies to be non-profits. What boggles the mind is your incredible cynicism and at the same time your incredible naivety.

Believe what you want about abortion. But at least be sensible enough to demand actual numbers and proof of this supposed high profit abortion market before believing in it hook, line, and sinker.

Amp, please, you're starting to emulate Dr. Rerun.

Dr. Rerun, what's your obsession with non-profits? Are you in a non-profit job? You blather on, and make no sense.

Hell, why should this subject be any different; you're a complete idiot...

Amp,

Once again, different things - elective abortion is the deliberate taking of innocent life. It is murder.

vor-

I'm not an atheist; I consider myself a nontheist. I don't think that the existence of morality is necessarily tied to the existence of some god or like creature. "laziest" isn't the best description either, considering that I have studied all of the western mono-theisms and a couple eastern religions as well as a lot of atheist philosophy. I just wasn't convinced by any of it and have found morality through lots of inward reflection and study.

Rana: If you don't believe in God, as you state, then how can you claim to not be an atheist, agnostic or at the minimalist level, a laziest? Regardless, belief in God requires a step outside of yourself and to illustrate this point, I would ask you to draw a circle on a piece of paper. Make it about 6 inches in diameter. That circle represents ALL of the known knowledge in the existing universe. Everything known about everything exists within that circle. Now draw another circle within that circle that represents how much of that knowledge you yourself personally have. If you are honest, you will see that your circle is significantly smaller than the larger one and this example does nothing more than prove the obvious. It doesn't prove that there is a God out there no more than me telling you so. What it does prove though is that your (and mine) level of understanding is very limited and that for the world to exist (just scientifically speaking) is almost unbelievable. The odds of everything coming together to make our planet inhabitable alone are in scientific terms impossible without some sort of divine intervention. Even scientists when forced to be honest agree to that.

So....me personally, I don't need to have that emperical proof as my belief is based on faith and the science for me only confirms. As I look at other religions, eastern in particular, they venerate me and my own thinking and returning back to my small circle of knowledge, I have to recognize that there is a whole lot more in this world than just me.

How about scripture to tell me about how God feels about life? Nothing that I know of is in Leviticus and I am not sure who sent you there, but what about

Old Testament
Job 10:10 "You guided my conception and formed me in the womb."

Psalm 22:9 "Yet you brought me safely from my mother's womb and led me to trust you when I was a nursing infant."

Psalm 71:6 "Yes, you have been with me from birth; from my mother's womb you have cared for me. No wonder I am always praising you!"

Psalm 139:13 "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb."

Psalm 139:15 "You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb."

Psalm 139:16 "You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed."

Ecclesiastes 11:5 "God's ways are as hard to discern as the pathways of the wind, and as mysterious as a tiny baby being formed in a mother's womb."

Isaiah 49:1 "God's ways are as hard to discern as the pathways of the wind, and as mysterious as a tiny baby being formed in a mother's womb."

Isaiah 49:5 "And now the LORD speaks--he who formed me in my mother's womb to be his servant, who commissioned me to bring his people of Israel back to him. The LORD has honored me, and my God has given me strength."

Jeremiah 1:5 "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world."

New Testament
Galatians 1:15 "But then something happened! For it pleased God in his kindness to choose me and call me, even before I was born! What undeserved mercy!"

So I stand corrected, there is plenty about God and conception in the Bible.

What is so hard to understand that the ultimate good is to improve society for us the living. Humans have emerged from a savage state so long as the basic human impulse to breed beyond control is created. I also have a question for true believers, how do you know? The bible is a book written by men so is the Koran and all other religious writings. Secondly why do so many religious laws mirror the needs of the society they are created in. Some examples; the kosher and hallal prohibition on pork is based on the fact that pigs in the middle east carried trichnosis to a much higher degree then in Europe. Therefore, the holy writings banned the eating of pork because people who ate pork were smitten with inexplicable illnesses, it wasn't bacteria it was the hand of god. Early christianity was based off the old jewish faith the old testament is the Torah with some changes. Why weren't the kosher laws included like the pork prohibition? The answer is easy when early christian missionaries were attempting to make their faith more acceptable to the pig eating Romans they dropped the dietary prohibitions. One more example; the wearing of the veil and the closeting of women in Islam from the outside world is another example of faith accomidating itself to the needs of the society it was attempting to convert. The veil and the closed harem and the subserviant position of women were a culture feature of some of Islams earliest the animistic bedouin tribesman. Mohammeds mother was an accomplished and powerful city dwelling businesswoman, Islam adapted itself to the needs of its intended converts. One final example the mark of the beast in the final chapters of the bible is 666 now what whould be obvious to the contemporary readers but is clouded to modern observers is that 666 is the numerazation of the name Nero Caesar numerology being of particular interest to the Greeks and Romans of the period. Now after listing the examples I pose an open question to anyone of uncompromising faith how do you reconsile these inescaple facts with an unquestioning believe that any of these various holy books are the direct word of god, how is this possible when there is so much evidence that these books were the creations of men? As a note I ask this question honestly as I have not reached a verdict on my own faith I honestly want to know how it is reconciled by people of genuine faith?

keefer-

Just because I don't believe in the divinity or truthfulness of a book doesn't make it as to where I want to be ignorant of its contents.

vor-

I don't think that my own knowledge is infinite; believe me, I know that my wisdom and knowledge are very finite. I just haven't been convinced, despite numerous attempts by myself and others, that a god does or doesn't exist. I guess that I am not the type of person to take things on faith. I do think, however, that my natural and often annoying tendency to question nearly everything I hear makes my mind more keen than it would be otherwise.

Rana:
The fact that you are inquisitive tells me that you aren't the typical type that just accepts everything as truth and that is a long lost attribute for contemporary man. Oddly enough, even the Bible has a verse that says, "If you don't believe it, test it." Study it and prove it for yourself. God is the keeper of all truth and to make an effort to know Him will ultimately reveal truth. How would you do that? Several ways. There is a good little book out there called "Letters from a Skeptic." It is pre-blog days and is a compilation of letters between a father and son. But as long as you aren't opposed to reading the Bible, read the book of John. But before you read it, be bold enough to ask God to reveal truth to you. I believe He will honor the truly seeking. As for faith...you have it, we all do. Faith is literally belief in things unseen. I wasn't there for the Great Chicago Fire, but enough books have been written about it that I can believe it happened. The Bible incidentally was as NY Law student states, written by men about events that happened in their time...TRUE. But the Bible is also the Inspired Word of God. What does that mean? Simply, the God of the Universe has the ability to guide the thoughts and writings of man to make certain that His message is captured. If you read the Bible as a piece of history and not necessarily the Word of God Almighty, then you wouldn't be wasting your time as archaeology and science continue to prove the writings of the Bible legitimate and timeless.

NY Law Student...are you really seeking truth or just trying to come up with an explanation for everything that the non thoughtful Christian would explain away with an act of God? You can use your God given brain to explore every one of the things you have mentioned and honestly, come to a conclusion that there is nothing divine about it at all....until it comes to the fulfillment of prophecy and ultimately the resurrection of Jesus. Too many people saw it and wrote about it and their testimonies are still alive and well today. Were their testimonies rubbish and the events that now are celebrated at Easter not true, the books contained in the Bible wouldn't have made it very far and its authors been deemed nuts and their writings died. If you were to write a book today about how let's say something as crazy as the current president is really just a stand-in and that the real W died in an assasination in the South Tower on 9/11, you would be declared a lunatic as what you wrote isn't true...(as much as I know some people who write here wish it was).

If instead you are really seeking and not just defying, then you should also ask God to reveal Himself to you. Read the book of John and let the living Word speak to you. Stop trying to explain everything away. It benefits you nothing especially if you are wrong.

I myself am only writing as a believer in not only God but in Jesus. As a believer I have been commanded to do nothing but be a witness and while I desire that you come to a believing faith in God, I personally have nothing to gain except knowing that the Kingdom of God would grow. Unlike other religions, Christians are to speak in love and gentleness as we can't make this decision for anyone else. It is personal.