Yep, things sure are looking better what with each passing month being the deadliest ever in Iraq and more soldiers being killed at a higher rate then ever before in the war---things sure are looking up!

You do realize that A: We've already done this surge plan a few years ago; didn't work, and B: This is simply a game of whack-a-mole. You send more troops into one area, of course its going to quelch the violence in that area a bit. The violence only pops up in a new area where those new troops aren't protecting, and so forth and so on.

You can't honestly believe this war is winnable, can you Mark?

Yeah things are so much better that 5 Britons were kidnapped from the finance ministry in Baghdad by men who were dressed in Police uniforms and arrived in up to 40 police vehicles. It's highly unlikely they found/stole 40 police vehicles so we can assume some police involvment. Things are so great that once we train the police they kidnapp/kill us.

Colin. I'll have to disagree with you. This surge is part of a new strategy designed to bring peace to the capital of Iraq and allow the Iraqi government a "cushion" to begin taking control of their own problems. I'm still stunned that we didnt have a plan such as this from the beginning; although that isnt an excuse for leaving the Iraqis a mess that we created. What I find disturbing about your posts is that you give all the credit to the insurgents, and AQ. You seem to enjoy citing the death tolls day in and day out. How can this be viewed as anything other than Anti-American rhetoric? Please explain. Personally, if this is a "whack-a-mole" plan, thats fine. Eliminate/drive out the insurgents/AQ out of Bagdad. Start bringing our troops home and let the Iraqi government do their job and root out the rest that are dispersed around Iraq. Thats my opioin. And yes, I believe that this war is winnable, from a standpoint that if we can get to the point where we can begin sending the majority of our troops home due to the fact that the Iraqi military is capable of handling their own affairs. That is Victory for this War. And I believe that it is win-able.
-Zach

"I had hoped that we could have started drawing down our troops in the second half of 2006 - but thanks to a cruel yet clever tactical change from the terrorists (their ruthless provocation of sectarian violence) and the defeatists here at home, the campaign in Iraq has been more difficult, more costly and more lengthy than I expected it to be"

Please explain how the "defeatists" here at home have anything to do with the troops on the ground and, most curiously, the costs of the war??? Last I checked, over the course of the war, the president has gotten every last penny he has asked for.....are you saying that opposition to the war makes the war costlier????

Huh. When Middle East and antiterrorism experts said Iraq was an unwinnable, broken tragedy, pundits on the right insulted them & said only the senior commanders should be listened to about Iraq. When senior generals started retiring specifically so they could criticise the incompetence this administration's shown, the same pundits hold up random grunts as though _they_ now have the only "true" perspective on our success in Iraq. But now more grunt-level types are willing to speak up & call BS on the happy-pony lies guys like Lieberman and McCain and Cheney are peddling, and everyday Iraqis aren't fooled by the smoke & mirrors either. Who's left to say Iraq is a success? Chris Muir?

"We live in a real world here, not a political playhouse where there are no consequences for words spoken." -

Truer words have never been spoken. As I've mentioned before, you have been consistently wrong about Iraq. What is the consequence for those words you've spoken?

Not content to limit your erroneous opinions to war, you've also been wrong about politics. What is the consequence for those words you've spoken?

Recently, you've stated that Valerie Plame was not covert, despite official confirmation that she was covert. What is the consequence for these words you've spoken?

Two logical consequences come to mind: one, you stop pontificating, embarassed at your own statements. Since clearly that's not going to occur, that leaves the second option: the consistent mocking and shaming of you by those who have been right.

Always nice to read the garbage from the lib war experts posting on a B4Bush blog. Vomit.

However anyone gullible enough to buy AlBores nonsence is also likely to be an expert on modern warfare. Vomit.

Even bonafide good news brings out the bash America in these worthless creatures of mankind.

Notice the Bush Brigade's response

Crickets.

Care to dispute this?

"Everyday Iraqis aren't fooled by the smoke and mirrors either"

-You mean these everyday Iraqis?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

-Asking for US military assistance? Fighting AGAISNT AQ? Is the threat AQ poses to Iraqis all part of a smoke and mirrors trick?

Casualties are up because we have more soldiers actively engaged in fighting at the moment. Casualties went up during the Battle of the Bulge and the invasion of Normandy as well, it didn't mean that we were losing the war. As far as lower level soldiers unhappy with the war, that will always happen. If you note the high re-enlistment rate, you will see how the troops feel about the mission.

Care to dispute this? - colin

I will let the military do my disputing. You know, those guys that are actually there.

WASHINGTON, May 30, 2007 – A U.S. general serving with Multinational Force Iraq recently took time out of his mid-deployment leave to let the American public know that the situation in Iraq is different from what they might think.
Army Brig. Gen. Steven Anderson, deputy chief of staff for resources and sustainment, today spoke with representatives of veterans service organizations, outlining a speech he gave earlier at James Madison University about what he believes are 10 myths about the conflict in Iraq.

“There are some signs that our new strategy is working,” Anderson said in a teleconference from Baghdad. “It’s going to be a long, hot summer, and it won’t be really until the end of it that we’ll be able to evaluate it. There is plenty of opportunity, and plenty of reason to be cautiously optimistic about what’s going on over there.”

The 10 myths, as outlined by Anderson, are:

-- The war in Iraq is about oil;

-- The U.S. is fighting alone in Iraq;

-- Iraq is engulfed in a full-scale civil war;

-- The Iraqis were better off under Saddam Hussein than under the new government;

-- The Iraqi government is ineffective;

-- Economic development is non-existent in Iraq;

-- Contractors cost the U.S. government too much money;

-- U.S. troops aren’t properly equipped;

-- Morale is low among U.S. troops; and

-- The U.S. has lost in Iraq.

Care to dispute the General, Colin?

I sure do want to dispute it. Ever hear of a war of attrition? With pascivists at home, we can never win one. Case in point: Iraq.

These nuts are playing a game with us.

1. Blow up a bomb killing civilians, or US troops.

2. CNN/NBC/CBS/ABC/NYT puts it all over the place, effectively spreading enemy propaganda. This wears down the will of the American people to fight this war.

3. CNN/NBC/CBS/ABC/NYT refrain from showing anything positive about the war, making it seem like nothing positive is happening at all. This also wears down the will of the American people to fight this war.

4. Go back step 1.

We need to go Roman on the Islamo-fascists. We need to fire the lawyer-generals and promote some killer-generals. Then we can win.

“There are some signs that our new strategy is working,”
- Army Brig. Gen. Steven Anderson

Ooops...Liberals here will notice the phrase "new strategy" that the General uses. Thats gotta sting.
-Zach

Yes infact, I do.

Let's just address the main points, as the other ones I haven't included are points that I have yet to ever hear in the media, on TV, in a paper, or from anyone in general.

Iraq War is for oil--I don't agree with this statement, though I can understand why people would agree with it when British Petroleum is sucking up as much oil as they can get their hands on in Iraq, a company that has had many of its chief execs hired by Tony Blair for positions in the British government.

The US is fighting alone in Iraq-- First of all, who the hell believes this? I've yet to ever hear a single person say the US is fighting alone in Iraq. We've got Britain, and thats the only REAL ally we have in this war. Who else is there in our "Coalition of the Willing"? (There isn't a single Middle Eastern country on board with this coalition) Poland? Denmark? Latvia? Estonia? What military might they possess!

Iraq is engulfed in a full scale civil war-- This is without a doubt true and to dispute it is simply foolish and to put it bluntly, retarded. Let's look at the definition of the word as defined by the dictionary:

civil war

noun
a war between factions in the same country

So how is that not the case in Iraq? Shiites and Sunnis are killing each other as quickly as they possibly can and waging war on one another. That's not a civil war? Two factions warring in the same country?

The Iraqi gov is ineffective--- You dispute that? Honestly? If they were effective don't you think they'd be able to put some sort of control on the violence that is increasing every single day? What about all of the countless Iraqi gov members who have sold intel, weapons and supplies to insurgent groups? What about the large amount of Iraqi army that have set up and detonated roadside bombs? What about the fact that the god damn PARLIAMENT BUILDING in the supposed SAFEST area of Iraq was bombed? Real effective all right---why look at all those great things they've done in Iraq! That country sure is prospering!

US Troops aren't properly equipped: Ever heard of this thing called DRAGON SKIN? It's a type of body armor that has been BANNED by the military in Iraq, despite every study done indicating that it is 20x better then the current body armor used by soldiers in Iraq. It has been tested thoroughly, and would even cost the military LESS then the regular body armor. That right there is not being properly equipped--when you know there is better equipment, can obtain it for cheaper, and still refuse to upgrade it.

Morale is low among US troops - A recently released Pentagon mental health study of the troops in Iraq found 45% of soldiers listed their unit's morale as very low. That seems like a pretty large number of troops saying there is low morale to me.

The US has lost in Iraq---no, not officially yet. But it's only a matter of when we are to leave; there is absolutely NO WAY that Iraq can be won; there is no feasible plan that could possibly quelch the violence and rebellion; none. To even suggest that we can win in Iraq is astoundingly moronic and pitiful really.

Oh, and since we're cherry picking General's opinions, how about General's Joseph P. Hoar, Barry R. Mccaffrey, William E. Odom, and Jack Keane? Ever heard of them? You know, all of these generals from the Iraq war who came out and said the situation is beyond repair, cannot be won, and it is simply illogical for us to remain there?

I thought McCaffey has just released a statement telling of positives with the surge strategy? I haven't searched on it. correct me if im wrong.

Neocon-

Not every soldier thinks this glorious surge is bringing imminent victory.

By Leila Fadel
McClatchy Newspapers

Leila Fadel/MCT
Sen. Joe Lieberman walks with Maj Gen. Joseph Fil Jr., commander of U.S. troops in Baghdad, left, at a Joint Security Station in southeast Baghdad.
More photosBAGHDAD, Iraq - Spc. David Williams, 22, of Boston, Mass., had two note cards in his pocket Wednesday afternoon as he waited for Sen. Joseph Lieberman. Williams serves in the 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, N.C., the first of the five "surge" brigades to arrive in Iraq, and he was chosen to join the Independent from Connecticut for lunch at a U.S. field base in Baghdad.

The night before, 30 other soldiers crowded around him with questions for the senator.

He wrote them all down. At the top of his note card was the question he got from nearly every one of his fellow soldiers:

"When are we going to get out of here?"

The rest was a laundry list. When would they have upgraded Humvees that could withstand the armor-penetrating weapons that U.S. officials claim are from Iran? When could they have body armor that was better in hot weather?

Williams missed six months of his girlfriend's pregnancy when he was given six days' notice to return to Iraq for his second tour. He also missed his baby boy's birth. Three weeks ago, he went home and saw his first child.

"He looks just like me," he said. "I didn't want to come back. . . . We're waiting to get blown up."

Williams wasn't sure if he'd say how he really felt. But if he could, he'd ask about body armor.

"I don't want him to snap his fingers to get things fixed," Williams said, referring to Lieberman. "But he has influence."

Next to him, Spc. Will Hedin, 21, of Chester, Conn., thought about what he was going to say.

"We're not making any progress," Hedin said, as he recalled a comrade who was shot by a sniper last week. "It just seems like we drive around and wait to get shot at."

But as he waited two chairs down from where Lieberman would sit, Hedin said he'd never voice his true feelings to the senator.

"I think I'd be a private if I did," he joked. "It's just more troops, more targets."

In the past two months, the unit has lost two men. In May alone, at least 120 U.S. troops died in Iraq, the bloodiest month in 2007 and the highest number since the battles of Fallujah in 2004.

Spc. Kevin Krasco, 20, of Medford, Mass., and Spc. Kevin Adams, 20, of Moosup, Conn., chimed in with their dismay before turning the conversation to baseball.

"It's like everything else in this war," Adams said, referring to Baghdad. "It hasn't changed."

Then Lieberman walked in, wearing a pair of sunglasses newly purchased from an Iraqi market that the military had taken him to in southeast Baghdad. He'd been equipped with a helmet and flak vest when he toured the market, which he described as bustling.

Earlier, Lieberman had met briefly with Iraqi soldiers and Iraqi police at a Joint Security Station; there are 31 throughout the city now. The senator, who's steadfastly supported the Iraq war along with the current surge of more than 28,000 additional American troops, said things were better.

"I think it's important we don't lose our will," he said. "To pull out would be a disaster."

The soldiers smiled and greeted him, stood with him for pictures and sat down to a lunch of roast beef and turkey sandwiches. It was unclear if they ever asked their questions.

As Lieberman walked out, he said that congressionally mandated withdrawal would be a "victory for al-Qaida and a victory for Iran."

"They're not Pollyannaish about this," he said referring to the young soldiers he ate lunch with. "They know it's not going to be solved in a day or a month."

It isn't clear whether Williams mentioned the last line on his note card, the one that had a star next to it.

"We don't feel like we're making any progress," it said.

Lieberman is a tool!!

And jbiccum, you're view on this war is laughable at best. So it's the medias fault for us losing? Really? Please explain that one.

There is a responsibility of news corporations to, oh I don't know, REPORT THE NEWS! In other words, they HAVE to report the latest car bombing in Iraq---if they didn't, what the HELL would be the point of having a media if they aren't going to report on the top stories?

As for your claim that NYT/CNN/CBS and basically any news station that isn't Fox(what a surprise!) don't play good news---thats bullshit. Here's a link to prove you wrong
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6998715/

And further more, if you reply with "Yeah but they don't report enough of the good news" all I have to say is---perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is either A: Completely irrelevant or that B: There isn't as much "good news" as you happen to think there is.

I'm constantly checking for good news on Iraq---almost none ever comes out.

And by the same token, Al-Jazeera airing the latest news on numbers of insurgents killed by the US is simply propaganda for the US? Because that applies perfectly to your logic.

"civil war

a war between factions in the same country"

Umm, maybe you should check the dictionary before you post something like that. By your reasoning we are in a civil war due to the Bloods and Crips going at it, or when two mob families go to war.

How's this for ya jbiccum since you want to be obnoxious asshole and you know full well that Iraq is in a civil war...

"a war between two factions STRUGGLING FOR POWER of a country"

That better for you? Because it applies all the same to the conflict in Iraq.

"And jbiccum, you're view on this war is laughable at best. So it's the medias fault for us losing? Really? Please explain that one."

Did I say it was the medias fault? Im looking at my post, and Im pretty sure I didnt say that. Ill explain it a little further for the pea brained libs out there. The media is a major component of the jihadis propaganda war. Its real simple, just read what I posted above to see how simple it really is.

"And further more, if you reply with "Yeah but they don't report enough of the good news" all I have to say is---perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is either A: Completely irrelevant or that B: There isn't as much "good news" as you happen to think there is."

Yeah that right, good news would be considered irrelevant by you libs. And B is completely wrong. I have read tons of stories and accounts from soldiers in the field about good things in Iraq. Schools, small businesses, a growing economy, kurdish freedom. I have seen some good news on Fox, thats why I didnt mention it. Honestly though, if anything doesnt fit into the sec. prog./liberal/socialist agenda, it will be completely ignored by the MSM. Do you contend otherwise?

I can name something every day that is ignored, it isnt all about the war. Anything good about our economy, or any of Bush's policies. How about that black on white hate crime? Hmm, didnt hear anything about that. They wont report anything about Dem corruption. If they do report any of this, it is about 3 sq inches worth on page F-23. What about Plame's purgery? Didnt hear about that on the MSM.

"I'm constantly checking for good news on Iraq---almost none ever comes out."

Exactly.

"And by the same token, Al-Jazeera airing the latest news on numbers of insurgents killed by the US is simply propaganda for the US? Because that applies perfectly to your logic."

Cmon man, you really cant figure that one out? Its because when non-liberals see their people being killed, it makes them want to fight harder, not retreat.

Wow, an even worse explanation then I expected, bravo jbiccum.

So Fox isn't part of the MSM now? Last time I checked they had their own news station...

Plenty of good news is covered---but you can't cover it all, even you have to know that. Besides, do you even know the first thing about how media works? Fear, fear, fear, fear. That's why people tune in for the news; because the promo they saw earlier said "Tonight a new vitamin that you can buy at the store that can KILL YOU!". Media, all of it, left wing, right wing, Fox or MSNBC, is about one thing only: Fear. You keep them afraid, they keep consuming, one of the most basic rules of life.

"How's this for ya jbiccum since you want to be obnoxious asshole and you know full well that Iraq is in a civil war...

"a war between two factions STRUGGLING FOR POWER of a country"

That better for you? Because it applies all the same to the conflict in Iraq."

Wow man, does it suck being so dumb? I corrected you because you were flat out wrong the first time. At least you were closer the second time.

A war between factions of the same country; there are five criteria for international recognition of this status: the contestants must control territory, have a functioning government, enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed forces, and engage in major military operations.

Thats the definition our Military uses, so thats the one I use.

"a war between two factions STRUGGLING FOR POWER of a country"

Uh oh. We's in a civil war right now. The Democrats and Republicans are at war, and struggling for power of a country.

War: A condition of active antagonism or contention

"Wow, an even worse explanation then I expected, bravo jbiccum."

I can tell you not that bright, but dont lie to yourself.

"So Fox isn't part of the MSM now? Last time I checked they had their own news station..."

Thats funny, even the Dems say Fox isnt part of the MSM. Why wont they hold that debate anyway?

"Besides, do you even know the first thing about how media works? Fear, fear, fear, fear. That's why people tune in for the news; because the promo they saw earlier said "Tonight a new vitamin that you can buy at the store that can KILL YOU!". Media, all of it, left wing, right wing, Fox or MSNBC, is about one thing only: Fear. You keep them afraid, they keep consuming, one of the most basic rules of life."

A basic rule of life? Man, I dont want to live in your delusional world.

When senior generals started retiring specifically so they could criticise the incompetence this administration's shown,...

Where's the proof, legion? I might contend that these senior generals retired because they were passed over for that coveted next star. Maybe because they were incompetent a$$hats. C'mon, chump, you claim you either served or were currently serving. If so, then you know how the military operates. Or maybe you don't--maybe you're an a$$hat too...

This is without a doubt true and to dispute it is simply foolish and to put it bluntly, retarded. - colin

Our resident religious bigot is now calling a US Military General retarded and foolish to debate him vis a vis the conditions on the ground in Iraq.

So our resident bigot directly disputes the observations and opinions from a US General currently in the theatre, citing polls and talking points. This is laughable.

I hope he is comfortable behind his keyboard.

neocon,

Colon's rhetoric reminds me of one night, when I was driving back from a job site in D.C. I was listening to a radio talk show on WMAL 630, and the host had some babe on from the far-left kook group Win Without Wars. Anyway, a soldier called in to debate her misinformation about the conditions in Iraq. The soldier had just returned from Fallujah, and he gave the babe an earful about how wrong she was.

Her response, and I paraphrase, was "Well, you were in Fallujah; you didn't see the big picture."

And this babe was parroting talking points! Just like ol' Colon, she wasn't about to let those pesky facts get in her way.

neocon, it's great to have you around here. You fight a good battle, and make these idiots look like, well, idiots.

Colon, you need to stop being an a$$hole...

Thanks Keefer,

I enjoy many of your comments as well. That radio conversation you mentioned sounds a lot like a few I have heard as well.

Ignorantly stubborn doesn't even begin to describe them

Oh so now I'm a religious bigot because I have the common sense to see that religion has harmed the world more then anything else? I'm a bigot because my opinion is that faith is weakness? That's ludicrous---did you not read the part where I said "I have no problem with Christians or anyone else in a religion"---it's called tolerance for a reason Neocon. You tolerate it. You don't need to like it.

Honestly, what don't you understand here? It's quite simple and obvious that Iraq is in a civil war---because incase you forgot, the Iraqi parliament is overwhelmingly Shiite or Sunni (minorly Kurdish)---so obviously they do hold power do they not? Ever heard of that crazy guy Muqtada Al-Sadr? Though he withdrew from the gov he still leads the largest militia in Iraq, one this overwelmingly anti-American.

Anyone else see the irony in jbiccum saying "I can tell you not that bright but dont lie to yourself" chastising ME on intelligence? Learn to write an even remotely grammatically correct sentence, then come back and tell me all about the new danger the terrorists pose to American freedoms.

This is your winning argument Neocon? Insult me? Funny how you didn't address even one of the counterpoints I made to the general's statement.

As per usual for you Neocon, you take something I say completely out of context and apply it to the general in question as though I were calling him retarded. Where did I say he was retarded? I didn't, I said one of his IDEAS was. There is a large difference between disliking an idea and a person who says that idea. I argue the message; not the messenger, as you and jbiccum are only capable of doing it seems.

Right, once again you claim that I am suggesting I know more about the situation in Iraq then a general does; I don't. However, all of the information I have provided, has been taken directly from former Generals in Iraq, polls taken of soldiers, and rudimentary understanding of a simple concept such as a civil war. When the former Prime Minister of Iraq, Iyad Allawi is saying though that the situation is a civil war, I tend to listen to him. After all, he would know better then anyone else the situation between Shiites and Sunnis, him having been so intricately involved in the country.

Don't forget either that a military general would NEVER come forward and say, while still employed in the field as a general, that we are losing. NEVER. That not only lowers the morale of his own troops, but it sets him up as a target to be discharged instantly.

And the media DOESN'T rely on fear? Are you kidding me? What is the headline every single day in the news? It's always something bad; never good. Why is that? Can you answer that? Consume, consume, consume, thats all its about. I mean damn I just turned on MSNBC an hour ago and Glenn Beck, who is one of the conservatives in the media that I highly respect, was going off on how this new TB case with the guy going from country to country WILL, not might, WILL lead to another terrorist attack on the nation. That isn't fear?

It's always the same: This will kill you, that will kill you, you MUST watch the news to find out how to prevent these things from happening! The media has always been about scare tactics; the most obvious case being that of global warming: the world is supposed to end now because of a hair-brained theory that simply doesn't stand up to historical data. That isn't fear-mongering? I'm sure you'd atleast agree with me on that one.

I'm sorry if I insulted you, however you have done nothing but do the same and mock me simply for having an opposing opinion. Once you realize things aren't as black and white as Liberals and Conservatives, maybe you can try working with both of those groups to make a solution for the problems, instead of pointing your finger at the evil scary Liberals as the source of all problems. Liberals are very much guilty of the same in regards of the current administration & Republicans in general; I however, am not. I tend to listen to both sides without coming in with the mindset of "Oh this guy is a liberal, he's wrong" or "Oh this guy is a conservative, he must be wrong".

Please; try acting responsibly and form an individual and independent opinion on things.

Don't forget either that a military general would NEVER come forward and say, while still employed in the field as a general, that we are losing. NEVER. That not only lowers the morale of his own troops, but it sets him up as a target to be discharged instantly.

Sorry, Colon, but it's evident you don't hang around the military much. No general with a shred of integrity would allow his/her troops to fight for a losing cause. btw, I have 20 years of active duty military service under my belt, so I know a thing or two about it. And noone gets "discharged instantly," especially not generals.

Please; try acting responsibly and form an individual and independent opinion on things.

Improper use of semicolon, Colon. Try using a comma next time. And please, lay off the talking points, or stop suggesting to others that they "form individual and independent opinions."

Gee Colon, you are an a$$hole...

queefer-

stop being a pu$$y f@rt!

Casualties do not equal defeat unless you let them force you to surrender. Think about Bastogne, or Iwo Jima, or Okinawa, or Chosin, or Gettysburg. I know that many on the left do not make the connection - but it is there none-the-less.

The casualty numbers are tiny compared to some of the struggles we've faced. Awful yes, but tiny. Yes, we get sniped. Yes we get mined. That does not mean we can't win.

Too bad so few of you have served or studied military affairs - really, its too bad.

America must to take the GWOT war seriously. The primary battlefied is Iraq. We must WIN in Iraq, or it will become a terrorists' Disneyland like Afghanistan was during the 1990's. However, the danger is already right here in the USA...

Hindu Father and Daughter Murdered, Burned in California-Suspect is Muslim...

"Authorities Believe Religious Differences Played Role in Slaying of California Father, Daughter"

AP: ANAHEIM, California — A man held for questioning in the murder of a father and daughter in California was upset with the family because they broke off his relationship with another daughter for religious reasons, court documents indicated. Friends told the Orange County Register newspaper the victims were devoutly Hindu, and court papers said the religions in question were Hindu and Muslim.

Iftekhar Murtaza, 22, of Los Angeles was arrested on a fugitive warrant Saturday at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport in Arizona, and was being held on Wednesday without bail.[..] The Register reported that Murtaza had a one-way ticket to Bangladesh.

Murtaza had not been charged with a crime but was considered a "person of interest" in the deaths of Jayprakash Dhanak, 56, and his 20-year-old daughter, Karishma, Anaheim police Sgt. Rick Martinez said Wednesday. [..] Police believe a second person was involved in the killings.

The victims were stabbed, strangled and had "moderate" burns, according to Arizona court documents.

Their burned bodies were found May 22 along a hiking trail in Irvine, several hours after their home in the Anaheim Hills was set on fire and the girl's mother, Leela Dhanak, 53, was found badly beaten and unconscious in a yard outside.[..]

Another daughter, Shayona, 18, was in her dormitory room at the University of California, Irvine, when the attack occurred and was placed under police protection. Murtaza was her ex-boyfriend, court papers indicate. He was upset with her parents and sister "for discontinuing the relationship due to different religious backgrounds, Hindu and Muslim," according to papers filed in a Phoenix court.

"Oh so now I'm a religious bigot because I have the common sense to see that religion has harmed the world more then anything else?"

Would it be fair to say that religion has also helped the world more than anything else. It goes both ways.

"Honestly, what don't you understand here? It's quite simple and obvious that Iraq is in a civil war---because incase you forgot, the Iraqi parliament is overwhelmingly Shiite or Sunni (minorly Kurdish)---so obviously they do hold power do they not?"

Yeah, but dont forget the last 2 criteria:

4) have identifiable regular armed forces
5) engage in major military operations.

"Anyone else see the irony in jbiccum saying "I can tell you not that bright but dont lie to yourself" chastising ME on intelligence? Learn to write an even remotely grammatically correct sentence, then come back and tell me all about the new danger the terrorists pose to American freedoms."

Sorry man, I mistyped and missed the "r" and a comma. I think a typo or two qualifies as "remotely gramtically correct".

"Right, once again you claim that I am suggesting I know more about the situation in Iraq then a general does; I don't. However, all of the information I have provided, has been taken directly from former Generals in Iraq, polls taken of soldiers, and rudimentary understanding of a simple concept such as a civil war. When the former Prime Minister of Iraq, Iyad Allawi is saying though that the situation is a civil war, I tend to listen to him. After all, he would know better then anyone else the situation between Shiites and Sunnis, him having been so intricately involved in the country."

Last month, an Iraqi general (employed at the time of our invasion) gave a speach about Iraq's WMD. He stated that Saddamn had WMDs, but right before the invasion moved them to Syria with the help of a Russian general and a company of Spetznaz. He was intricately involved, but do you believe him?

"And the media DOESN'T rely on fear? Are you kidding me? What is the headline every single day in the news? It's always something bad; never good. Why is that? Can you answer that? Consume, consume, consume, thats all its about. I mean damn I just turned on MSNBC an hour ago and Glenn Beck, who is one of the conservatives in the media that I highly respect, was going off on how this new TB case with the guy going from country to country WILL, not might, WILL lead to another terrorist attack on the nation. That isn't fear?

It's always the same: This will kill you, that will kill you, you MUST watch the news to find out how to prevent these things from happening! The media has always been about scare tactics; the most obvious case being that of global warming: the world is supposed to end now because of a hair-brained theory that simply doesn't stand up to historical data. That isn't fear-mongering? I'm sure you'd atleast agree with me on that one."

First off, I agree completely with you on AGW. However, I don't think the media's purpose is to scare us. I think their purpose to provide information, but with a little shock value added. I'm not sure how often you watch the news, but every story isn't about how this will kill you, that will kill you.

"Please; try acting responsibly and form an individual and independent opinion on things."

Uh oh, typo police here. We have a violation. Aparently you're not intelligent.

"I argue the message; not the messenger, as you and jbiccum are only capable of doing it seems."

So, calling you out on your obviously wrong definition of a civil war was arguing the messenger? Thats completely false. Here is my post:

"civil war

a war between factions in the same country"

Umm, maybe you should check the dictionary before you post something like that. By your reasoning we are in a civil war due to the Bloods and Crips going at it, or when two mob families go to war."

Did I insult you there? No. But for that you called me an "obnoxious asshole". Thats clearly arguing the message, not the messenger, right Colin? Maybe you should look at yourself a little closer before declaring "I argue the message; not the messenger", which is a complete falsehood.

I already apologized for insulting you and anyone else jbiccum, because politics is always something very personal for everyone involved and almost always ends up with insults.

I promise however I will try my best to refrain from insults.

And the Sunni's & Shiites most certainly do have military forces---the ever-growing militias. And they HAVE engaged in major military conflicts, what would you call the hundreds of dead every month from bombings and scattered firefights?

Of course the media isn't ENTIRELY about fear, but the headlines always are. The reason you tune into the news is never for the good heartwarming story on the cancer patient who's recovered, it's for the latest bombing in Iraq and the newest murder. A good example would be the TB guy flying around the world---I probably saw atleast five reports on it, all with panels discussing how the terrorists are going to use this story, infect themselves with smallpox (afterall the smallpox virus is such an easy thing to acquire) and start a biological war in the US. Scare tactics are never more prevalent then in the media.

And Freedom1, printing that story proves absolutely nothing. So a Muslim killed a family and that means terrorism is invading the US? Newsflash: Terrorism has always existed in this country and every country for hundreds of years. Whether it be the KKK, the American Nazi Party, PETA Eco-Terrorists, school shootings or a Muslim killing people. Just because a man is Muslim and kills a family does not mean that this is a trend in America. Muslims are not the problem and to even suggest this is simply ludicrous; the problem is TERRORISM. Be it Islamic, Hindu, Christian, or Zionist, our enemy is terrorism. Does it really matter what God they pray to? It wouldn't change the story at all if the man were a Christian or Jewish; the family would still be dead.

I'm going to try and conduct myself more respectfully from now on here, and I expect the same from those with intelligence here. Jbiccum, though I disagree strongly with many of your views, it's obvious you are intelligent and therefore I don't think it to be too hard of a goal to achieve for us to conduct ourselves accordingly.

All I want is peace and to save the lives of Americans---surely that is something everyone can agree is a goal worth obtaining, no matter how we disagree in the way that goal can be obtained?

keefer,
You mean besides ret. generals Batiste, Newbold, and Zinni? Or do their criticisms not count because they're no longer in uniform? Oh, but people still in uniform _can't_ criticize the President's incompetence or they're traitors. But if they get out, foul-mouthed little children like you call _them_ incompetents, despite the fact that they had already risen higher than you or I ever will. Nice little circle there.

Oh, and you may have spent 20 years in the service, but you sure didn't learn much about politics, keefer. Sure, nobody gets discharged 'instantly', but they sure do get shut down & sent to pasture if they don't toe the political line, regardless of how effective (and prescient) they are professionally. remember Shinseki?

I remember Shitsecki, legion--how come he hasn't spoken out on his own behalf? The DNC and Spitball Kerry are his mouthpieces?

Yeah, legion, I know all about kiss-ass officers; they're no different than the politicians who are trying to get reelected. These generals didn't get their next star from Bush, and they are bitter. Tough duck...

Thanks for proving every one of my points in one short post.