Sure there is a reason Noonan! The reasons are as simple as that of a mother and her child. The mother in this case is materialism and the child is greed.

Republicans have had opportunity after opportunity to:

** Place the blame for high oil prices, high gas prices, high fuel oil prices where it belongs...

** Place the blame for oil, gas, and heating prices where it belongs...

** Place the blame for trillions of American dollars that have gone to other countries, even to our enemies, where it belongs...

** Place the blame for the loss of American jobs, salaries, taxes and economic benefits where it belongs...

** Place the blame for the rising cost of food, consumer goods, and other items where it belongs...

SQUARELY on the BACKS of the DEMOCRATS!

But instead, as usual, Republicans do nothing...

They stand back and allow the Democrats to blame them for problems the Democrats create!

AAR

AAR-

All of the problems of the world fall into the laps of the democrats who have had control of one third of our governement for about five months. Nevermind the republicans who had full control of the governement for six years. Don't blame them.

I agree with this post in that the refineries are not refining enough crude oil thus causing the price hike. In Whiting, IN near were I live the BP refinery is only operating at 50% capacity. This seems like a Enron type scenario of purposely cutting off supply the inflate the demand.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with BEL. My cousin has a good friend who works in the Whiting refinery. You should hear some of the stories he tells about the shenanigans they pull with manipulation of supply. Right now they're having to manipulate supply because demand (from the driving public) is sinking like a rock. Our local news this week has interviewed a number of people who have cancelled Memorial Day trips because of the cost of fuel.

Earlier this year, late January or early February, I think, gas in Northeastern Indiana got down to $1.74/gallon. This week it was up to 3.59/gal., or just a little more than double. During that same time frame the price of crude oil went from $50/bl. to around $65. Do the math.

On the positive side, however, the higher the price of gas gets, the faster we're going to develop alternatives. Weaning ourselves off oil from the ME, Russia, Mexico, Venezuela and Canada (sorry, CO) will solve a whole other set of problems.

The restrictions on offshore drilling and ban on new refineries have been going on for decades, under presidencies and congresses of both parties. Likewise with our dependency on foreign oil.

There are other factors, such as government regulation of gasoline formulas, which vary by state and region. As a result, if a refinery goes down (whether for maintenance, repair, or whatever), others cannot simply increase their production to compensate (and many operate at close to full capacity in the first place, and thus can't increase their production). This, too, has occurred under both parties.

There are also external factors such as the increased demand from China and India, along with production problems in Russia, that have pushed up the price of crude.

So you can give the Dems the blame - but only part of it.

Weaning ourselves off oil from the ME, Russia, Mexico, Venezuela and Canada (sorry, CO) will solve a whole other set of problems.

Posted by: Retired Spook at May 25, 2007 10:28 AM

No need to apologize, Spook, I am in complete agreement. We need to explore new and cleaner alternatives.

Well, CO, it was a tongue-in-cheek apology, but clearly developing new, clean and economical energy sources is something that virtually everyone, regardless of philosophy or political persuasion, can get behind.

One unfortunate situation we have gotten ourselves into is to constrain the building of refineries. For the most part in the past this has been a combination of NIMBY, enviornmental regulation, and oversupply. I know the last one directly, my father was a refinery engineer in the '70s and '80s for Exxon and Sun Oil (Sunoco). They built so much capacity demostically and overseas prior to '73 it was amazing.

It is going to be rough going for near term (3-4years) because beyond incremental improvements ,I don't see any existing owners investing in new plants. And why should they? All the talk of alternative fuels would scare anyone thinking of plunging 100s of millions in to new capacity that may not be able to pay for itself in the future.

Furthermore the unknown alternative fuels impact on the fuels will prevent any new players for entering the market either for the same reason.

Leaving us in a situation that we better hope the alternative fuels do pan out or someone can develop a refining process that doesn't require a $500 million plant. Otherwise these price swings are going to continue for a long time.

I'm running a little short in time, so I'll just start with some comments from my previous posts...

Democrats (Liberals) are to blame for much of America's dependence on foreign oil, high gas prices, high heating oil prices, high energy costs, and trillions of dollars that have and will go to foreign nations which supply our oil -- money that could have and should have gone to American petroleum suppliers, American businesses, American workers, American families, and American taxes -- taxes that could have gone to America's education system and to increase American's incomes!

Liberals Democrats are largely responsible for the high gasoline prices we are seeing now and the spikes we have seen in the past. Liberal Democrats and environmentalists have blocked the efforts to drill for more of America's oil, to build more American refineries, to produce the gasoline in America, coal liquification and gasification, oil shale development, more natural gas, drilling off our coasts, and drilling in ANWR. Ted Kennedy even opposes wind power off the shores of his "sailing resort".

Democrats have and continue to block drilling in ANWR and near our coast lines. Estimates vary, but ANWR alone has the potential to produce billions of barrels of oil. Some estimates say as much as 30 billion barrels. That's oil that could have been ready to satisfy our needs during emergencies and shortages -- like Katrina, Gulf hurricanes, Iran's threats, and others.

That's trillions of dollars that have gone or will go overseas -- even to our enemies -- and that worsens our balance of payments. If it had not been for liberal Democrats blocking attempts to produce American oil, those dollars and jobs would have remained in America!

If ANWR produces 30 billion barrels of oil at $75 per barrel, that's 2.25 TRILLION DOLLARS. Even if it produces only 15 billion barrels, that's still MORE THAN ONE TRILLION DOLLARS that could and should remain in America. And there are potentially many more tens of billions of barrels available along our coasts and in other areas within the United States. That's EVEN MORE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS that could have and should have remained in America -- BLOCKED BY DEMOCRATS!

And then there are all of the jobs associated with American oil and gas. Some projections estimate ANWR alone could produce as many as 735,000 jobs and billions and billions of dollars in revenue to the state and federal government. A study from by National Defense Council Foundation projects that ANWR could produce 1,000,000 new jobs for Americans in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.

And where are these jobs going -- along with the TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS in oil revenue, salaries, taxes, and American dollars? To Iran, Venezuela, and other nations to develop their economies, provide them with jobs, and develop their military! To Iran to help develop nuclear weapons and missiles to possibly destroy Israeli and American cities and those of our allies, potentially killing untold numbers of Americans.

It takes time to locate, drill, produce, refine (to include building new refineries), and distribute oil and gasoline. Even if we start now, it will take years to bring production up to its full potential. We could have had that oil, gas, gasoline now -- IF liberal Democrats had not blocked the efforts in the past. We could have kept many of those trillions of dollars in America and held down our balance of payments -- IF liberal Democrats had not blocked the efforts in the past.

It will take time to produce new, plentiful, cheap, and renewable fuels and energy. We will continue to rely on oil until those sources are available, and even well beyond that. While we are working to develop and produce those new sources, we should be drilling in ANWR, along our coasts, and other areas for the oil we need now!

We should have been doing that for years, to include drilling in ANWR and off our coasts rather than permitting DEMOCRATS to block our refineries and our oil while TRILLIONS of our dollars have gone to other countries!

AAR

I'm sorry guys, there's just too much siulliness being thrown around here for me to not point some of it out.

For starters, Mark says; It is time to be pro-active: drop the price of gasoline

Sure, let's force Dick Cheney to turn the dial on his magical price-of-gas-modulation-dismogrifier to "lower." That's all it takes, right?

AAR responds; ** Place the blame for high oil prices, high gas prices, high fuel oil prices where it belongs...

Like, perhaps on all those consumers?

B.E.Lib. mentioned that; ...the BP refinery is only operating at 50% capacity.

Sure, they MUST be gouging. With prices at a historical high, the logical business reaction is to make LESS product, right? Or could that be a meaningless statistic lacking context? Nah, must be gouging.

Then Spook gives us this tearjerker; ...local news this week has interviewed a number of people who have cancelled Memorial Day trips...

So cry me a river.

Actually, don't cry over it, because that is the kind of emotional reaction the media is trying to manipulate you into having. Look past the the tearjerkking "My kids won't see Grandma" story and you'll see something much more grand at work. The system of capitalism and freedom, which has been bought and paid for by the blood of patriots, is in full swing and working the way it ought. Perhaps these saps ought to be honoring the heroes that made that possible this Memorial day, instead of whining about not being able to blow discretionary cash on a vacation.

Free market capitalism... it's a wonderful thing. Too bad most people don't remember how it's supposed to work.

gaw, I was simply pointing out anecdotal evidence that demand is headed south, which, in a free market economy, is exactly what one would expect when the underlying raw material cost rises 30% and the end-product price rises 100%. My comment wasn't intended to "jerk any tears". The proof will be in the pudding in 30-60 days when industry numbers are available showing actual production and consumption numbers. If a decrease in supply precedes a decrease in demand, and the pump price stays the same, then that is not the free market at work. I'm a big fan of free market capitalism when it works the way it's supposed to.

I have noticed something this last week, the price of gas in my area has gone down 10cents. This even as we are coming up to the holiday weekend. That is not to say that the current price of $3.19 for regular/ethanol blend is low, just 10 cents lower than last Friday. Now, will it stay that way? Don't know, but I am hoping it will not have gone up before I get off work, so I can get some.

hmm- so they want to make price gouging a crime and your response is that it might not help companies exploit people for profit if they did that. God - what priorities you have...

Actually, price controls don't help anyone. It just leads to artificial shortages and/or rapid price increases when the controls are removed. I remember the problems caused by earlier attempts at price controls. Not pretty, not very smart, and definately hurt the lower income brackets the most. Aren't they the ones you claim to want to help rerunkritter?

i'm not sure i would consider this an issue of price-gouging - at least not directly. the price of fuel is determined by a very deep, liquid, and transparent market, not by a small number of colluding companies. that said, there may be some legitimacy in questioning how refiners utilize capacity throughout the year, and by extension, whether or not they exploit their ability to control output to influence the market indirectly. but this is not price-gouging.

there are other factors at play here of course. but if you want to go after the oil companies, repeal the excessive tax breaks and subsidies to start with.

Spook-
Did not intend to mischaracterize your point, but I suppose that's bound to happen when I yank a phrase out of context and make it mean what I want it to.

Granted, your point was that reduced demand was causing reduced refining output, which related back to BEL's statement re: BP. However, BEL attributed the price spike to reduced refining, and you indicated agreement with him.

The media tend to take individual data points, ie., higher prices, reduced capacity, and people canceling holiday trips, and then present them without a proper understanding of context to lead people to draw entirely bogus conclusions. That was my main point, and I quoted you to make it.

If I may step into it again, you said;
If a decrease in supply precedes a decrease in demand, and the pump price stays the same, then that is not the free market at work.

Anticipating a reduction in demand and adjusting accordingly is the hallmark of a free market. Should the refiners be required to generate maximum output regardless of demand? How could that be "free?"

(Speaking of price controls, how about that minimum wage? What a scam.)

Oil is a commodity, it's prices are set by those supplying it (opec) and those desiring to purchase it.
Opec is a consortium of countries who have a near monopoly on the product and can pump as much or as little as they want to hold the price at the level they see fit.

I have worked in several refineries, they are constantly repairing, replacing, expanding , modernizing their facilities, NONE of them can run at 100% for a sustained period.

That is why we need new refineries, and oil drilling for our own use so we dont depend on iran, venezula, saudi arabia etc.
For crying out loud the CHINESE are drilling in the gulf of mexico but we CANT??????
Thanks algore and your marxist enviro wackos.

Here's my idea. Libs stop yelling about Global Warming and just talk about how we need to reduce our dependence on middle east oil. I think if you did that, you could solve your problem without fact-stretching and bad science.

Whatever happened to "a penny saved is a penny earned"? Reduce the use of carbon-based energy, and you fix the middle east oil problem, peak oil fears, acid rain, smog, AND save cash. What is this mental block over "conservation?" Why do you people flip out over a compact florescent in the hall closet?

Wanna cut your gasoline bill in half? Share a ride to work. Drive half as much. Drive a Prius. Take a bus/the subway/ride a bike/walk.

Like any of that's gonna happen. If we converted our cars to run on liposuction fat, we could power this great nation on America's fat asses for generations to come.

Here's some deductive reasoning:

con-serve
con-serv-a-tive

a-tive must be Latin for "no freaking way I'm going to..."

Sure there is a reason Noonan! The reasons are as simple as that of a mother and her child. The mother in this case is materialism and the child is greed.

Moer blah, blah, blah from Cavalor Idiot, Assquire...

Correction: More blah, blah, blah from Cavalor Idiot, Assquire...

...but clearly developing new, clean and economical energy sources is something that virtually everyone, regardless of philosophy or political persuasion, can get behind.

I'm behind it, Spook, but I'll be either dead or in diapers before it happens...

Hey, where's kblockhead77 on this one? Missing in action? I need divine guidance!!!

Anticipating a reduction in demand and adjusting accordingly is the hallmark of a free market. Should the refiners be required to generate maximum output regardless of demand? How could that be "free?"

Suppliers shouldn't be "required" to do anything with regard to output. And anticipating a reduction in demand would be one thing; manipulating supply in order to defeat or subvert the basic law of supply and demand on a proprietary product like gasoline is a whole different animal.

If we converted our cars to run on liposuction fat, we could power this great nation on America's fat asses for generations to come.

Boy, ain't that the truth. See, even a Lib comes up with a great idea once in a while.

I, like a lot of Americans, have a love/hate relationship with the oil industry. I love the freedom a personal vehicle gives me, but I hate the games the oil companies play with the price of their product. But ,in all fairness, Bob gets to the real crux of the problem earlier in this thread when he says:

It is going to be rough going for near term (3-4years) because beyond incremental improvements ,I don't see any existing owners investing in new plants. And why should they? All the talk of alternative fuels would scare anyone thinking of plunging 100s of millions in to new capacity that may not be able to pay for itself in the future.

Furthermore the unknown alternative fuels impact on the fuels will prevent any new players from entering the market either for the same reason.

Well said.

If we converted our cars to run on liposuction fat, we could power this great nation on America's fat asses for generations to come.

yeah, Broder, but if we could convert them to run on liberal b/s, we'd never run out of fule for milleniums to come...

Or fuel...

kblack,

I'm just pointing out the salient fact - if gas prices keep going up like they have, then the demand for controls will become unstoppable. Time to be pro-active. If there is a time the oil and gasoline companies can afford a bit of "give back", it is now, right after a couple years of record breaking profits.

I hadn't heard of supply manipulation that Spook and others have brought up - but I'm just familiar enough with the way corporations work to see that, yeah, there could be some corporate dimwits out there trying to take advantage of a situation (corporations are staffed by humans, after all - ie, they are sinners like all of us, and tempted to sin just as much as anyone else...and just as likely to fall for it as the average person).

Also, I'm a Catholic - and high profits are never a large concern for Catholics...just dial it back a bit; have two mansions, instead of three, ya know?

Spook-
Did not intend to mischaracterize your point, but I suppose that's bound to happen when I yank a phrase out of context and make it mean what I want it to.

Granted, your point was that reduced demand was causing reduced refining output, which related back to BEL's statement re: BP. However, BEL attributed the price spike to reduced refining, and you indicated agreement with him.

The media tend to take individual data points, ie., higher prices, reduced capacity, and people canceling holiday trips, and then present them without a proper understanding of context to lead people to draw entirely bogus conclusions. That was my main point, and I quoted you to make it.

If I may step into it again, you said;
If a decrease in supply precedes a decrease in demand, and the pump price stays the same, then that is not the free market at work.

Anticipating a reduction in demand and adjusting accordingly is the hallmark of a free market. Should the refiners be required to generate maximum output regardless of demand? How could that be "free?"

(Speaking of price controls, how about that minimum wage? What a scam.)

gaw,

You'll get no argument from me that the free market works best - but there's the theory, and then there's the actuality, and some times they don't meet. I'm just offering some POLITICAL advice to part of our business community.

Aside from that, I'm entirely with you in any program to get ever more government out of our economic life.

Its pretty amusing - you know since the new deal the US hasn't had a completely free Market. Its called Keynesian economics (John Maynard Keynes) - and we have had inflation (price controls) and interest rate manipulation by the Federal Reserve ever since.
The absolutely free market is proven to be a disaster. This was shown in the turn of the 20th century where the super rich minority cornered the free market by acquiring such large market shares that the "free" market was no longer free - it was controlled at the whims of "Robber Barrons". There are some things that are just too essential to let lose to the free market - say energy supply. Look what happened to California - the deregulation of the energy market lead to huge shortages - not because there was an actual shortage but because a few huge companies controlled everything in a profit seeking mode crushing the back of the average Californians...

The fact is, the Democrats have been, for many years, blocking America's efforts to produce more American oil, gas, and energy, and more American refineries. That has been and is a significant contributor to this and each oil/gas shortage in the past, and each spike in oil/gas/energy price.

The Democrats blame each increase, shortage, or spike on the Republicans and President Bush, and they do it over, and over, and over until the American people believe their propaganda... all while they are the ones blocking access to our oil and increasing the number and capacity refineries, nuclear power, and other energy sources.

Republicans meanwhile, allow the Democrats to continue unchecked with their blame game. Democrats understand and know how to use the media, brainwashing, negative propaganda, and how to lay the foundation and [false] basis for their claims and ultimate win. They worked for three years laying the foundation for their win in 2006 with their "Bush lied" message while Republicans watched like a bunch of zombies!

Republicans set themselves, and the rest of us for defeat! We need a complete house cleaning and new organization to run the Republican party, or another Conservative organization to take control of the ship, because the current Republican leadership and "organization" isn't doing the job!

AAR

Spook - Thanks for the positive comments. I wondered if anyone was paying attention.

Bob, I always pay attention when someone mentions alternative energy. There is a lot a research going on right now that rarely gets reported in the MSM. I'm somewhat optimistic that in the next decade or so technology may solve several problems at once: provide clean, economic alternatives to the burning of fossil fuels, resulting in a cleaner environment with lower greenhouse gas emissions; and eliminate our dependence on foreign oil resulting in less petro dollars flowing to terrorist groups. I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't consider that scenario a win, win, win, win.