We need to re-think the idiotic notions of gun control. If there were at least SOME armed professors or security guards, or even the deterrent possiblity of there being some, then this rampage would have been much less.

You can't completely prevent some nutjob a-hole from going out and killing somebody if he or she has a mind to do so, but you can certainly limit the impact. Texas had the right idea after Luby's. Let the people pack the heat.

Mark:

I find it interesting that you are laying blame not on the individual, but upon the environment.

This usually is chastised as a "liberal" view that absolves the individual of responsibility for their actions and blames society.

So your solution now is to turn our society into some sort of utopia that enforces some sort of moral order. Less love of material possessions?

Sounds very, well, socialist to me.

Wade

...and to tag onto my previous comment before someone points it out - I am not stating that the US has gun control - at least legislatively. However, we DO have a worrisome stigma associated with gun ownership. So, we, in effect, DO have a form of gun control legislated not from Congress, but rather from a dangerous liberal mindset pervasive in society at large.

Mark:
I agree whole heartedly that our society has many ills, simulated violence in particular but this deviants issues were more psychological than sociological and to blame society for this; as much as I understand a need to affix responsibility somewhere, serves no purpose on this deeply dark and sorrow filled day.
Sometimes there is no explaination for abhorent human behavior.

You are no different from Fred Phelps and the people of the Westboro Baptist Church, who think terrorism and mass murder is God's response to America's sanctioning of homosexuality, if you believe this. The monster is our own tendency to use unspeakable tragedy for personal gain.

As a sidenote: They (the WBC) plan on protesting at the funerals of the murdered students. This goes beyond red and blue, theist or atheist. There should be an immediate outcry. If you're not repulsed by this, you're not human.

TomJeff, I dont think that trying to figure out why this young man acted out the way he did is wrong. If we do not try to examine cause and affect of his actions then we will continue to see this happening throughout our country. I for one believe that many factors play into the issue of violence, for example internet, violence on tv, porn, and just the basic moral decline of this country. I belive that as a whole our country has become so desenseatized with violence that it has become commonplace in every city in this country. This will strike up more gun debate throughout our country which I belive will be divide the left from the right even more. Whith that said my prayers go out to all the family and friends affected by this tragic event.

Agree with you, Mr. Noonan. But the question must be asked, especially now that polls show that most Americans do not see continuation of the Iraq war as necessary to the larger war on terror, how does fighting in Iraq help us defeat the monster at home?
Clearly, this attack shows that that all the terrorists need as far as human resources are concerned is already here. No adherance to any causes in particular is necessary. Just some anger at...who knows what?
Where is the enemy? Who is the enemy? Is the enemy us? It seems to me those who support this war need to answer these questions.
And perhaps a little private prayer is in order.

I agree, Mr. Noonan. Before we start "seeking to assign blame" to the violence in video games and Hollywood movies, however, let's "accept responsibility" as Americans for creating the violence of a war in the Middle East that has claimed tens of thousands of lives. This violence is REAL, not virtual, and is being condoned by the Commander and Chief and the religious right that supports him. (I believe 'thou shalt not kill' is listed somewhere in those ten commandments that the Christian Right wants so desperately to hang in public buildings everywhere. If those commandments are so precious then why don't they start supporting leaders who actually have the courage to live by them?)
So tell me, Mr. Noonan, what is the baser influence on the children of America: the virtual violence found in video games or the actual violence that the authority in our country has created, condoned, and escalated? The United States exports death on a larger scale than Hollywood or the video game industry could ever even dream about.
The greatest depravity is sitting in the halls of Washington.

Mark Christopher, New York, NY

p.s. You didn't authorize my last post, I guess, even though there was nothing profane in content. Perhaps, just like the Bush adminitration, you're afraid of any dissent and are content with simply preaching to the choir. This is my last attempt. If this isn't published on your website I shall know you to be cowards.

Everytime there is a school shooting, people blame "society" or pornography (because watching other people have sex makes people shoot eachother, apparently) or violence on TV... frankly, it's just an easy scapegoat and rarely the true cause of what happened.

Frankly, I don't know the motive for this crime was, and neither do police. There does seem to be a pattern for this, considering that most of the people that do this type of thing are "loners" and generally mentally unbalanced.

But go ahead, blame society, censor pornography and resensitize the country to violence... the root cause of the problem will still go unanswered...

JAT,
It's interesting you bring up the war on terror, because this guy fits the terrorist profile. I don't mean he's like someone throwing a stone in Palestine, I mean he's like one of their higher ups. First of all he was well educated.

Secondly, look at what he rallied against, debauchery. That is, he internalized a rigid moral code, and rather than bear the responsibility for his part of that problem and his part of that solution, he shoots people. This is typical serial killer behavior, trying to destroy the part of their internal object world with which they can't make peace by destroying the external representations of that object world.

He was a loner, probably perceiving himself to be marginalized in society by his race and foreign born status (his identity was a question mark), just as many of the terrorists are marginalized by their own extreme behavior, alienated from the rest of society. They identify with the alienated. That which we have to be thankful for in America, he didn't have a readily available group of violent, alienated, organized terrorists to join. That's why we need to stay in other countries and bring peace to the Middle East, because an organized one on his own, even with an easy target, managed to kill 32, unlike the twenty organized terrorists on 9/11 who managed to kill about 150 apiece.

Rana, Im not pretending to know what was this young mans issues were, Im just stating that things that are available on the internet and other media sources do contribute to the moral decline of this country. A perfect example is child molestors, they are almost always involved in watching or in possession of child pornography. Do you belive having that kind of smut at their dispense dosent contribute to their disgusting behavior? Its like putting an alcoholic in a bar and not expecting them to be tempted to take a drink. To say society didnt have anything to do with this event is to say that society plays no role in the way people behave.

It's interesting you bring up the war on terror, because this guy fits the terrorist profile.

It's coincedental, morris, not interesting. JAT is an anti-war loon who seeks to politicize this thread on a very solemn day...

For once I can't really agree with you Mark. We are all engulfed in this society and yet only a tiny fraction of us engage in these kinds of acts.

To try to find a rational explanation for irrational acts is understandable but misses the mark I think.

Evil does not require anything other than evil to explain it. Remember Satan? He is still active in ways both gross and subtle and will be until the end of time.

"The monster I refer to is the monumental depravity of our society - the combination of glorified violence, socially acceptable rudeness, a sea of pornography, seeking to assign blame rather than accept responsibility, rampant greed for the things of the world, the concept of "its ok to lie" in certain circumstances...you mix this vile brew and you will be forced to drink it to the dregs...and what happened yesterday was just another sip of the cup."

This paragraph made me very thankful for the First Amendment.

Gar Wood

Mistayre, the difference between school shootings and child molestors is that child pornography is illegal, whereas pornographic images of consenting adults is legal... Come to think of it, while child molestation is disgusting, it is not analogous to this situation, so the child porn thing is mute. Mel brought up a great point, everyone has access to this stuff, but only 1 in however many thousand actually do something bad about it... does that speak to the fault of pornography or violence on TV or insane individuals?

Once again, the signs were there and the parents missed them ... starting a fire in a dorm room, stalking women, etc. I place much of the blame on the parents just like I placed much of the blame on the Columbine killers' parents.

As parents, we cannot watch our children every second, however, we must pay attention to subtle signs that may warn us our children are headed for trouble.

I'm not saying there is any silver lining to the VA Tech incident (and today it became particularly painful personally when I learned that a guy I had known for years was one of the victims; he left a wife and two kids, both under the age of 10), but if there is one it would be a renewed concentration on what makes crazies like this do the things they do. And that, by extension, renews the discussion on how to combat them effectively.

I'm guessing invading South Korea doesn't enter the discussion. And that itself might be a lesson to the extent that it could be extrapolated to other contexts -- and I think it can. I take Morris' lead on this, but I don't want to put words in his mouth either... but to me, the question is not whether crazy people can be eliminated, but rather what can be done to reduce their number, and to marginalize them as much as possible. Ultimately there may be a military component in that equation, but I doubt it is a predominant one.

Keefer, the majority of Americans are now anti-war loons who don't see how the war in Iraq helps us defeat the monster at home. Perhaps you could tell us since you know so much.

Morris, Thank you for your thoughtful response. They're out there. Timothy McViegh et al. What do we do with these people?
Any helpful suggestions welcome.

Keefer,

Quite frankly, as angry as you seem at times, you, it seems to me, are part of the "socially acceptable rude" crowd. And, sometimes, I wonder about your rants with all the cussing. Do you fit the profile Morris talked about. You oughtta take a good long look at yourself...Really.

i'm going to agree with mel's comments.

i find it hard to believe that society is to blame for something that is so far from the norm. sure it plays a part, but if you take away violent music, tv shows, games, internet porn, etc...i'm sure that someone, somewhere will go on a killing spree.

the same goes for anyone to say that there needs to be more gun control. if the 2nd amendment were to be abolished, the bad guys would still be able to get there hands on the guns. i've always said, if someone wants to kill someone, or steal something, or whatever bad enough, they will do it.

what we as a society need to do is learn to recognize disturbing behavioral patterns and let the authorities be aware to them.

politicizing this crime will not solve anything either. we all must realize is that there are evil people in this world and they will do evil things regardless of any policies that may be put forth.

i hope and pray that the loved ones of the victims of this crime will find peace and strength to continue. if you stop and think about how many lives you would affect if you were one of the victims you would see that many lives were shattered yesterday. may God be with those people now.

HMMMMM....lets see!

1.40 years ago we had Prayers in school, and chewing gum was the major infraction.
2.We had (on wed) early release for RELIGIOUS instruction at our local church or synagog, and chewing gum was the major infraction.
3.We were considered to be a Christian nation. Many of us hunted and OOH yes carried rifles and shotguns to SCHOOL in the back window of our pickup trucks, and chewing gum was the major infraction.
4. Then we embraced secular liberalism, atheism, and Marxism. and the results are, MURDER, RAPE, DRUGS, PORONAGRAPHY, ASSAULTS.
5. couple that with the growing "religion? of peace" and we end up with the UTOPIA that the democrats are leading us to.

tomjeff,

Weapons of the sort used by the killer yesterday have been around for a century...and yet, these sorts of mass shooting sprees really do not pre-date the 1970's. What happened between, say, 1900 and 1970 to change us?

Clearly the killer yesterday was insane - entirely divorced from reality and entirely self-absorbed. As far as we can determine, humanity has always had to deal with members of society who become in one way or another unhinged from reality...and yet there is still this: the very new phenomena of the mass murderer and/or the serial killer.

The question I asked myself - not just today for the first time - is why did we not have this sort of thing before, and why do we have it now? Once you ask that question, it becomes very clear very quickly. We live in a society which has unhinged itself from reality, and thus we develope people who go even further down the road to insanity. For crying out loud, we can watch scores of people murdered right before our eyes on television every night! You can say all you want that this doesn't have an effect...but advertisers play the same ad over and over and over again because it does have an affect...for 30-40 years now, we've been playing the "go insane" commercial over and over and over again...no surprise at all that some people take the message to heart.

We are free to downplay this - the make noises about being shocked and saddened...and then go on to something else. We can also, like Gar, cling desperately to our fool notion that unless the vulgar are free to be disgusting, none of us are free...we can do that and a score of other things in response to this, but unless we stop and THINK about why it happened and come to understand that the answer lies in our bathroom mirrors each morning, it won't go away...and, in fact, it will just get worse and worse.

I just hope we figure this out before the "record" for mass shooting deaths passes 100 in one incident.

Mark - I agree with you (surprisingly) on much of what you say. In particular, the culture of simulated violence in our culture. Its acceptable to show horrible deplorable violence on TV but say a "bad word" or show a little too much skin and everyone goes crazy.

It appears though that this was primarily motivated by severe psychosis rather than video games.

In particular it brings up an interesting - and I am sure controversial here - point. How can someone who is this psychologically disturbed end up with a glock legally. Of course you can never remove the threat of violence completely - but these sort of incidents would indicate to me that before we go handing out objects whose sole purpose is to commit bodily harm to others - or the threat there of - we should do more careful checks of who we are giving them too

We do nothing but pray..folks. Because the problem has become insurmountable for our society, and to consider implementing another law, program or philosophical standard that would most likely be forgotten in two weeks, would be a waste of time and taxpayers $.

This may sound harsh to some, but as you get older, you'll look back and see the blatant degredation of our belief system and the inabilty of parents to instill the difference between right and wrong in their children. In essence, parents don't take the time with their children like they did decades ago. But even if they did, there will always be bad apples, and for anyone to think that we can thin the field of mistfits or the mentally unstable thru legislation or reasoning is only fooling themselves and those that buy in to their propaganda.

Our mental health, drug and alchol services organizations in the US are presently overloaded with case loads that exceed common sense. Why is this? Because our population, and the need to feed, house, educate and oversee these individuals costs more $ than we can generate and to be quite frank, it really isn't at the top of any politician's agenda.

And, sometimes, I wonder about your rants with all the cussing. Do you fit the profile Morris talked about. You oughtta take a good long look at yourself...Really.

Deloooosional!

Really, JAT, where are my "rants with all the cussing?" C'mon, if I call someone a moron, that's cussing? I've ceased ranting on this blog; in fact, I haven't had a rant in months. And believe me, if I ever thought that I "fit the profile," I'd check into a mental hospital immediately. I love life, and I have no desire to end anyone's. In fact, I'll never, ever suggest any of you kooks jump in front of a bus again. That's pure evil, and I can't identify with that.

btw--I take my meds. I might suggest that there may be a few here who should consider doing the same.

We have to change, good people - we have to stop all this. It is within us to do it, if we'll just regain our courage to make demands for decency

Couldn't agree more with you Mark Noonan. Vote Democrat in the next election it will help to heal your heart.

kblack, actually I'm a bit surprised he got these guns legally as well. As a major pro gun guy I've know a bit about the laws and rules to get a gun and I know for a fact that one of the questions on the paperwork is about mental illnesses. Heck my buddy can not get a gun currently because of one incident 5 years ago that flagged him as "personally destructive." In order for him to own a gun he has to be recertified as "safe" before the State of California will allow him to own a gun.

I do believe mental abnormalities are part of the Federal screening. So unless he got these guns before he went on Anti-Depresents (and he might well have) he shouldn't have had them per current gun laws.

Also, I have to argue against blaming guns or video games for this crime. Those are two biggest targets for blame every time a shooting of any kind (especially a school shooting) occurs. I have met hundreds if not thousands of gamers and gun owners who have never fired a weapon at a person in real life. In fact I live by an old phrase in this vein: "Kill Pixels not People."

I can't tell you how much stress I've relieved blowing things up virtually instead of going off in reality. I'm not the only one either, but as with everything there needs to be balance and balancing reality and fantasy is a major problem for those with mental disorders.

So who's to blame for this? Is it the school? I can think of several things wrong with schools that allow for shootings like this (not allowing teachers to be armed, only one way in or out of a LOT of rooms, locked campuses, etc.) but I think they're only the last stop in a long chain.

The culture? We can all point to the individuals who stray from the norm, even before our current culture (can we say Jack the Ripper?), but a big part of each of those is what society did in general did to help prevent them. Do we lock up everyone who shows the slightest bit of instability in jail? Do we try to treat the insane or the unwell? If you've ever had to personally deal with the mental facilities and medical arena you'd know just how messed up our system is. (I had a roommate who had Schizophrenia
and let me tell you the system is FUBAR!)

How about guns, are they at fault? Sure they are if I can blame running people down on my car. Or stabbing someone on my knife. The gun is a tool just like any other. In fact if one of those involved had one maybe they could have stopped this rampage before it started.

Family and friends? Now here's where I would put the most "fault." We all know odd people, heck I purposefully surround myself with them. If we don't look out for one another and try to help one another what good are we? When we think a pill can make everything better, when we can share a room with someone for MONTHS without talking to them with more than grunts how is that okay? There are lots of ways people can ask for help, one of them is by not asking for anything. It is up to all of us to be aware of that.

navydad.....i hear you on your boomer perspective.
ironically (sorry) ...i had to smile to myself
because i read your post
in an abe simpson'esque kinda voice in my head.

Any humor is good humor lenny! Glad I could assist, although serious about....

We can look at numerous factors, but we have to look at two in particular:

We are becoming more and more desensitized to violence, and unwilling to place limits on our kids in regards to violence and destructive behaviors.

We are less willing to act to report or stop violent or amoral behaviors because of the fear that we will become the objects of the aggressor, or their facilitators.

Mark:

What is the nature of reality? For that matter, what is the nature of man? If you say that you know, you don't.
Is it what physicists say? Darwin? Philosophers? Great religious leaders? Politicians? Atheists? The dogma of secular christianists? A combination? Is it trancendent? Electro-chemical? Is our biology and hard wiring deterministic? Can reality even be defined in lingusitic terms?
Please hold the impulse that you have to explain too me the nature of reality. Rather, better understand yourself why you have this impulse.
I believe that you, like so many of us are deeply effected by this horrific act and I will leave it at that.

The greatest depravity is sitting in the halls of Washington.

No, Chrissie, the greatest depravity is sitting at your keyboard. You hate this country; why is that?

Mark: The question I asked myself - not just today for the first time - is why did we not have this sort of thing before, and why do we have it now?

What is your definition of "now"?

FrmerMarine,

Forty-one years ago, August 1st, 1966, Charles Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas - Austin and shot and killed 15, and wounded 33.
Charles Whitman Bio:
The oldest of three brothers raised on South L Street in Lake Worth, Florida, Whitman attended St. Ann's High School in Palm Beach, where he was a pitcher on the school's baseball team.Charles and his brothers all served as altar boys at Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Church,and he chose the Confirmation name "Joseph" for himself.
At the age of 6, he had scored 138 on an IQ test. Six years later, he was among the youngest to ever achieve Eagle Scout, to his father's delight.

Keefer, and the rest of you...

Stop saying that dissent and disagreement with this administration is akin to hatred of this country. Most of us, love this country and just hate the direction this administration has taken and the crimes they have committed in our names...

"The monster I refer to is the monumental depravity of our society - the combination of glorified violence, socially acceptable rudeness, a sea of pornography, seeking to assign blame rather than accept responsibility, rampant greed for the things of the world, the concept of "its ok to lie" in certain circumstances...you mix this vile brew and you will be forced to drink it to the dregs...and what happened yesterday was just another sip of the cup."

Aren't you doing exactly that? Assigning certain aspects of our society as blame for the creation of sick individuals as well as their actions?

We had a guy shooting from a bell tower long before so much of the "ills" we have today. We had mass murderers years ago - Jack the Ripper, anyone? We had attempted presidential assassinations almost every 20 years from the 1860s onward.

This animal is just one person. He would probably be a loner no matter what the situation was. He would probably have chosen to rally against whatever he perceived to be society's ills no matter in which generation he lived.

There were people around him who tried to help him - in the end, he appeared not to want to be helped. He chose his path and unfortunately it is stained with the blood of innocents and heroes.

kblack
Then we'd be lying. If you could read the posts we conservatives read from you on the left, you'd be offended too.

We'll stop when you concede Bush didn't lie, no one made this war up in Texas, GW is a myth, Saddam was a bad man that liked WMDs and especially when you stop calling the hosts of this site liars. I doubt your liberal emotions will allow you this luxury, so we won't hold our breath. And you tend to forget that Matt & Mark are kind enough to allow you to post here.

Navy...
a) we know that either Bush lied about WMDs or is so completely unquestioning of bad advice that he shouldn't be president

b)this war was - very explicitly - made up by the Bush administration. Specifically, one day GW decided that either Saddam had to leave or we would attack. As has become incredibly clear - nobody else has power to do that except Bush..

c) I never said that Saddam wasn't a bad man or that he didn't "like" WMDs.

Rico,
It sounds like you have a pretty good sense of where I am with this. And I hear a lot of solutions from a lot of people. I was quite impressed with Gozer's post, and I think some of what is different culturally now is the breakdown of so many social structures, and part of that is the idea that isolation is something to which people are entitled (as Horney would describe it, the neurotic moving away from people).

As a society, we no longer teach children social skills, how to meet people and get along with them. We saw how corny those 50's educational films were, but we didn't replace them with anything. And in large part, that's what TomJeff reflects, the idea that if something is difficult, we don't have to try to overcome it, we're used to people fixing things for us, used to it being someone else's responsibility, and Hermie hits this too.

People keep talking today about how this is senseless and insane, but behavior like this does make sense. That is, we know he wasn't on an emotional level during this act, and so that suggests a high degree of dissociation, probably one he learned a long way back, typically in childhood as a response to perceived abuse. Such abuse is consistent with the low level of empathy he showed for other people during his rampage.

And as I mentioned above, his actions reflect a rigid moral system, that was how he explained his actions. That is, he put the responsibility for what he did on a bankruptcy in others, and this also may not have come from nowhere. It fits with a pattern of harsh criticism and physical punishment suffered as abuse from childhood during which those with the power in his life likely did the same thing, scapegoating him for whatever they believed he messed up. And from them he learned not how to avoid screwing up but how to believe other people could be responsibile when his life gets messed up.

So it makes sense we could shortcircuit this anywhere along the line, by protecting children from abuse, by teaching parents better ways of coping with children. But if as a society we send the message that some people are victims, that others with more power are the ones responsible for all the subsequent problems in their life, it makes sense that some people will receive this message, and send it on. This is a tragic generalizing of a moment to infinity, and that comes in part from the very language we use. Many parents don't think to quality "Little Joey is bad" when he hits first as "Little Joey is bad when he hits first."

At a worldwide level, we have to expect that societies who teach violence by advocating alienation, who teach isolation from and destruction of scapegoated peaceful cultures, will have their messages received and they will organize. And we have to expect that as our own media echoes this message, Americans receive it too (Cho had a Muslim reference on his arm, and this act may have been a way to identify with others alienated by American society).

As you say, military action would only be a way of disrupting political structures sending out what is returned to us as poison and death. Until we find a way to replace what they were taught before with something more appealing (difficult, because believing others cause all your problems is seductive), we won't succeed.

That is, we won't succeed at getting along with all others until we all send out the message that all are worthwile, until we believe that such a message and its consequences are more important than the worth of those who don't believe that all are worthwhile, so we're caught in a paradox. Until we all send out the message that everyone should get along and believe in that message more than believing in actually getting along with those who disagree, we won't all get along, so another paradox.

Our founders and their followers managed to build a society in which most people can peacefully satisfy their need for both freedom and belonging, their need to stand up for something and their need for forgiving support on their way there. In a nation of three hundred million, we're doing nothing short of an amazing job to have only a few of these incidents each decade. But statistical consolation doesn't mean much to thirty three who lost their lives and those connected to them. I am sorry to hear this tragedy touched you so personally, and my prayers go out to you.

Bret - guns are illegal on VT campus - see how well that protected everyone?

I know this sucks. This jerk did an awful deed.

The 2nd Amendment is NOT about hunting. It's about self protection, hunting, and franky.... the right to revolt. It was written by a bunch of revolutionaries.

If you want to change it, then rather than circumventing it, try to change the Constitution and let the People speak.

My kids are all expert shots. But they are also responsible and sane.

Ricorun,

Over the past few decades - it was only after I wrote my bit that I remembered the 1966 incident...so, lets say that "now" equals roughly the last forty years.

This sort of thing used to not happen, and now it does...our job is to try and figure out why..saying the man was insane doesn't cover it because we've had insane people all along and yet gun rampages are a new thing. Something is making people believe that the best thing they can do at the moment is go out and kill a lot of people who never did anything to them.

Tomjeff,

The nature of reality? That is a deep, theological matter for which I suggest the Summa Theologica. I'm dealing with the practical realities of today - a day in which a man took weapons and slaughtered people for no apparant reason. To try and cobweb spin it into nothing might help you think you're off the hook, but it doesn't actually address the issue at hand.

We used not to do this, and now we do - we must get, once again, to a place where this doesn't happen. My preliminary suggestions - sobriety, modesty, etc - come from my belief that we've degenerated ourselves on purpose to a near-barbaric level, and thus we see growing barbarism in our society.

mike h - yes. And he had a brain tumor the size of an orange. His problem wasn't society or upbringing, it was a huge cancer in the middle of his thinking system - yes?

Cho Seung-Hui, the gunman who apparently killed 32 people and himself Monday morning at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Va., seems to have been a shy, quiet type seething with rage at unspecified tormentors.

Virginia Tech police on Tuesday morning identified Cho, 23, as the man whose body had been found in Norris Hall, site of the worst shooting spree in American history, lying next to two semi-automatic pistols.

He apparently had scrawled the words "ISMAIL AX" on the inside of one arm, according to the Chicago Tribune, which may be a reference to the Islamic account of the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham.

Hmm. Very curious.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266523,00.html

Mark Noonan,
Great post. I agree.

Posted by: FmrMarine at April 17, 2007 06:16 PM
Excellent post, FmrMarine!

As President Bush said at Virginia Tech quoting the Bible, "Don't be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

Words to live by. America desperately needs a Christian revival.

Freedom,

We are indeed fortunate that the mercy of God is infinite...we'll need a lot of it.

And that is interesting...the twists of our modern life do seem endless.

Mark Noonan,
I was wondering about your observation that only over the last 40 years or so that we've suddenly seen a rash of truly horrific acts like the VT shooting. I wonder if prior to the 1960's (before the Supreme Court banned the Bible in school, and the ACLU's jihad against all things Christian) if America and Americans had well, protection from God against the evil impulses that cause VT-type mass murders. Hmm.

Freedom,

We can't, of course, speak to that with certainty - once, for the sake of just ten righteous men, the Lord was willing to stay His wrath...we hope that we have at least ten righteous people here in American praying for our country.

Still, in my view it cannot be denied that morally we are far less than our ancestors...for all of their sins, they were better than us. My father tells me stories of how his father sealed all his deals with a handshake; that was all that was needed when two honest men met on the square to arrange affairs. These days we need an army of lawyers, because our assumption is that the other guy is trying to put one over on us.

CS Lewis pointed out that the higher a thing is, the more demonic it can become when it falls...we, with our massive power far exceeding the dreams of our ancestors, have fallen quite far, and have become very evil. Think of it - the terrorism we suffer under would have been considered impossible for our ancestors who were once shocked to the depths of their being by a arms-carrying passenger ship being torpedoed in a war zone...but it is even worse than that, because we not only are unshocked by terrorism, but we've actually got people who will seriously try to explain it away.

One of my earlier posts was about how Hillary Clinton - a former First Lady and current Senator from the State of New York - is accepting donations from the pornographer Hugh Hefner...we don't even bat an eye at that. And that really tells us all we need to know about how low we've fallen, and how desperate is our need to turn around and try to find the right road where we left it all those years ago.

Mark-

Was that last comment an attempt to put Republicans on a pedistal over Clinton? It's not a hard thing to do with some out there, but you went at it from the wrong angle. I mean, who can forget the gay porn star in the press corps (and cleared by the whitehouse... and posed with the president)... or the porn producers that donated to Bush's 2004 campaign (I think that they were "Pioneers"... no pun intended). I mean... how low are we when the "pious" accept poon money?

Mark,
Excellent points and I agree.

"...because we not only are unshocked by terrorism, but we've actually got people who will seriously try to explain it away."

Yeah, it's like some kind of sick phenomenon. For instance, Muslims are waging a bloody jihad against Thai Buddhists-often teachers, schools, civilians-and the MSM refuses to put that violence on the frontpage to bring it to the world's attention. Buddhist teachers and civilians are getting shot, beheaded and burned to death and the MSM just yawns. As if, to say that bloody jihad will go away if we all just close our eyes.

It's especially apparent when that terrorism and hatred are targeted at Jews. As you know, over at GOPBloggers, Jon Roth has the post, "Muslims Attack Jews Worldwide = Dog Bites Man". The article documents that "Global anti-Semitism is spiraling upward..." and NO ONE (especially- the MSM, politicians, government officials worldwide) seems to notice or to care. The levels of Jewish anti-Semitism are comparable to those just prior to WWII. That should be cause for worldwide alarm!

Argh. Evil bites.

Hey, Mark, all of this has me thinking. How about an End Times thread? I really do think the End of Days are upon us. Glenn Beck had a recent show about the End Times. Two of the many remarks I found fascinating was this from Tim Lahaye, co-author of the "Left Behind" Series:

That`s one of the very prophecies of the end times when the blur would be made between good and evil, and people would be saying good was evil and evil was good.

and

Actually, that comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, two of the most awesome passage descriptions that have to do with future prophecy. And it delineates them. In fact, it names the countries, and interestingly enough, it looks like a geographical map today. The named countries are the neighbors of Israel and all the enemies of Israel. And they have one obsessive compulsion, and that is to eliminate Israel, to drive them into the sea or wipe them out, as Iran says.

But also, Russia, they`re right, the main players in this, the most specific latter times, end of days prophecy you`ll find anywhere in the Bible.[..] [Joel Rosenberg]: So you have a Russian-Iranian alliance with another group of Middle Eastern countries, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, a group of others, Sudan.

These things are happening, today!

I never said that Saddam wasn't a bad man or that he didn't "like" WMDs.

However, kblack, you did say, repeatedly, that Saddam had no connection to Al Qaida or 9/11, and I've shown you that you're wrong. Had he not been hanged so soon, we'd be waterboarding all kinds of confessions from this "bad man."

Why do you continually call my president a liar, kblack? What compels one to hate his country as much as you do?

Mark, I just have to ask you a quick question - you go on here about how "this never happened in the past." I thought you were a history major at one time. Do you not remember, oh, I don't know, maybe the 1880's through the 1890's? The Old West. People were killed in mass shootouts every day. There was no law in parts of the west,and bad men killed innocent women and children on a regular basis.
You might also remember other historical times where mass murder, or at least raping and pillaging were considered the norm. The Middle Ages, the Inquisition, etc.
Evil and violence have ALWAYS been with us. Porn, video games and TV are not the sole causes of homicidal tendencies. If tehy were. would we have been such barbarians before all of those things even existed? More likely, it is mental illness, reaction to previous abuse from others, or just plain desperation that leads to mass murder.
I agree wholeheartedly that we need to change as a society, but laying the blame on easy targets like porn and TV does not solve the problem. It is not that simple, Mark. Someone here said that Liberals want a Utopian society. Well, so do Conservatives. Except the Conservative Utopia would have no porn, no TV, no video games, no homosexuals, and no exposure to "harmful" things. Okay, but will that solve all violence? Of course not, because it is okay to wage wars in God's name. I guess as long as violence is for God or for America it is okay. Funny how in war one person can easily kill 32 innocent people in crossfire and they are a hero, but when someone else does it they are evil. ALL killing is wrong. Is that not one of the biggest Commandments - "Thou shall not kill." Perhaps we ALL should live by that ideal.....

You're absolutely right, Mark. We should ban those things in our society that obviously were the cause of the massacre: the pornography on the Internet, foreigners, etc. I think, like most of your readers, that we should ban all of these types of things that harm our society. Asian students should be banned from college campuses, and only real american-looking people (like Tim McVeigh) should be allowed on campus.
Leave guns alone, however. They had nothing to do with this massacre.
In fact, to all of those fairy-liberals out there, even if you say that guns played a role in the VT murders (what an outrageous thought!), you have to ask yourself whether 32 or 33 lives is the price we occasionally pay so that law abiding citizens who want to feel really macho (like your typical BlogsForBush reader) can carry a gun. It's like the war in Iraq. Sure, there's no real purpose to it, but promoting it and making Bush look like the greatest war time leader in the modern era, got him re-elected. And, as a result of that, our taxes are lower and your readers will probably one day enjoy seeing the Bible touted in public schools everywhere as the official learning tool and books on evolution banned. Wasn't that worth 3000 mostly minority lives?

Kahn,

An autopsy showed Whitman had a brain tumor, which has led some to speculate that it caused his actions; however, this can't be known for sure. Post-mortem autopsy of his brain revealed a glioblastoma multiforme tumor the size of a walnut, erupting from beneath the thalamus, impacting the hypothalamus, extending into the temporal lobe and compressing the amygdaloid nucleus.

Cain was a tiller of the land while his younger brother Abel was a shepherd, and one day they both offered a sacrifice to God, Cain offering fruit and grain, and Abel offering the fat, or milk from the firstborn of his flock. God favors Abel's offering, and subsequently Cain murders Abel, The story continues with God approaching Cain asking about Abel's whereabouts. In a response that has become a well-known saying, Cain answers, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Cain’s actions result in the death of approximately one-quarter of the earth’s inhabitants.

"seeking to assign blame rather than accept responsibility"

Those words appear in an post arguing that we should blame society.

While a christian fanatic, I don't see how religious instruction would necessarily help. We had fewer school shootings in the 50s, but far more lynchings. There is now no religious education or mandatory school prayer in public schools, satisfying the Catholics, jews, Buddhists, etc, and there are fewer lynchings. Using simpleminded logic, apparently school prayer causes lynching. Using your brain, you realize that isn't true, that things are considerably more complex. Could apply here.

Baghdad seems to have 5 times as many people killed in explosions earlier today. I doubt that will be a major story. We just accept their deaths, and move on.

Robert;

The commandment is actually; "Thou shall not commit murder." All killing is not wrong. Do you really think it would have been wrong for one of the students or a police officer to have killed Cho Seung-Hui to prevent further murders?

Jack,
How many straw men was that? I lost count.

Keefer,

Why was there ever a need to suggest that anybody "jump in front of a bus" or any other act that would cause harm?
Why is there a need to call people names? If you believe there's something lacking in any particular statement, why do you need to do more than point it out?
Its your right to do so, to the extent that that the editors have allowed you to, but don't you consider some of what you have done rude, and therefore, unnessary in the context of Mr. Noonans post?

Its your right to do so, to the extent that that the editors have allowed you to, but don't you consider some of what you have done rude, and therefore, unnessary in the context of Mr. Noonans post?

Yes, I do, JAT, but I also consider it rude when morons come here to slam their country, and to gloat when yet another car bomb goes off in Iraq, killing innocent people.

And, if you read my post correctly, you read that I am no longer calling for you loons to jump in front of anything. However, should you desire to do so, don't expect me to stop you...

Robert,

How do you get from me saying we need a society of modesty and sobriety to saying I want a society with no homosexuals?

Jack,

Your comments are beneath contempt...Robert managed to just rise up to contemptible, so I addressed them.

usawakeup.org

WAKE UP AMERICA!!

Jeremiah

Mark, you have been called out here.

Tulk,

Your link doesn't work..who is calling me out and about what?

Well one thing; if the democrats, or liberals, or progressives, or whatever you call yourselves this year want to run on gun control in 2008, then knock yourselves out. Push for a Constitutional Amendment if you really want to do it right. Really.

Honestly, I've been feeling pretty bleak about conservative/Republican chances in '08. But if you do the gun control thing again, hell we could win.

It is always darkest before dawn.

There you go again: blaming America.

Marc - if you hate our country so much, why don't you go back to Canada?

Keefer,

You are making progress. Although, you never answered my question as to why it was necessary to tell people you disagreed with why they should "jump under a bus" in the first place?
So it goes.
Now if we can get you away from calling people names, we'll be making even more.
Keefer, it is possible for people to disagree with you about the progress being made in Iraq without, as you say, "gloating about the deaths of others".
You must also admit to the possibility that the reasons for the bombing have nothing to do with the failure of anyone here to support the troops. It may be that strategy our leaderss adopted to fight the insurgents has simply failed.
Bush had 4 years with a rubber stamp congress, and could not bring the situation to a successful conclusion.
Proof that Bush has no real concern for the troops lies in Walter Reed. Not that the democrats don't have scandals of their own. They do. But Iraq and related matters were created by Bush, and his supporters. At this point dems can investigate Walter Reed without hurting themselves. I doubt Walter Reed or any related matters would've been investigated at all had the dems not been put in control of congress.
It is difficult for real conservatives to believe that Bush has any of their interests at
heart or that Bush is doing mush more than simply trying to protect what's left of his damaged reputation.
A point about Bushs' honesty:The pentagon announced this morning that the funds to continue the war through June. Bush is talking like that was never said.
While the Dems lie, too, they certainly have no monopoly on the practice.
Look forward to your response.

JAT,

While I can make out a lot of what you said, much of your post is so incoherent that I think you need to reword some of the questions before I can answer them. And please, use proper punctuation. Questions require question marks.

I can excuse a few typos and a misspelled word here or there, but if I can't understand WTF you're writing, I won't attempt to respond.

Looking forward to your corrections...

Keefer,

If you could make out alot of what I said, then by all means, respond to that portion that you could make out. We'll leave the rest for later.
Please leave the abbreviated epithets out it. They add nothing to your post. They are unecessary.
Thank you for leaving the name calling out of it.
Look forward to your response.

JAT, the purpose of the daily bombing is to sap the enemy's (our) will. This is a basic principle of asymmetric warfare. Our press willingly helped. Bush haters willingly helped. Caving is caving to that tactic. Note, this is always the FIRST phase. The next phase is open warfare.

Here's a couple of questions for you - please, without resorting to a search.

How many Medals of Honor have been awarded in Iraq?

How many Navy Crosses, Distinguished Service Crosses, and Distinguished Flying Crosses (equivalent medals in various services) have been awarded in Iraq?

Can you tell the story of any? In past conflicts, we were allowed heroes. Not so this time.

through Nibelungen Lieds and HeldenBuchs and Songs of the
gay story twinks*
of a seer who reads the stars dot At intervals the wind of the summer