Ah yes let's get government down to the size where we can drown it in a bathtub, then we privatize it, then blame that government for not being able to met the needs of it's citizens when privatization falls on it's ass, then we can demand.......(wait for it).....................MORE PRIVATIZATION.

Ah yes the merry-go-round of conservatism is spinning nicely.

This is not new. It has been this way for years. I rotated through the the VA 30 years ago while in training and the goals there were to not see patients, to do as little work as possible. This was true of most employees!

It was a bureaucracy in motion. Red tape, forms and endless paperwork. Seeing and taking care of patients was secondary. Classic government lifer employees.

Later I spent several months in the British health care system in Oxford. Very similar. The physicians in academics were never to be found and I did not ever see a staff physician examine a patient.

Of course here, the physician will be expected to see patients 24/7 for wages that won't come close to covering overhead. I would expect a system to be put in place so the physician is responsible for the overhead while paid wages that will not cover those. Medicare works that way now.

Lot of luck finding quality care or a physician period. I can find other things to do.

Walter Reed is not run by the VA, it's run by the Army.

I think you are confusing two completely different entities here.

Walter Reed is the Army medical center - It is a military hospital run by and for active duty personel. It is a military entity

The VA is run by the United States Department of Veterans - that's actually a cabinent level department(Reagan elevated it to that status). Its responsible for administering programs of veterans benefits for veterans, their families, and survivors.

"The V.A. hospitals are government run health care. By Schumer's own admission, the V.A.-run health care system is a failure."

And why is it a failure? Because funding has been moved from one government department to another.

So, one of the losing government departments is the department that takes care of V.A. Hospitals - and the winning department? The one that is conducting the war, of course.

You can't have it both ways. Bush diverted funding from caring for vets to pay for his war continuing indefinately. A number of people tried to tell this Blog that, but were shouted down and called "bleeding hearts liberals", and now it's fully coming to light how badly the administration cares for those wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan, the spin machine starts and tries to turn focus away from the fact the money to run these places correctly has been stolen from them and spent on more weaponry and sending yet more people to be injured and killed in Iraq, and instead tries to blame nationalised health care?

Well, guess what - if you're a warmongering government, you don't CARE about health care for the vets. But privatization isn't the answer, when you have privatization of war efforts that result in such corruption as toilet rolls costing $100 each, and feeding people all at the same time to save money, instead of making sure the same level of staffing and alertness is maintained at all times. Giving yet more money to companies like Halliburton, or whatever subsiduary they want to set up if it looks like they can have a no-opposition contract for military healthcare isn't going to solve the situation.

You want to solve the situation? Start taking the pressure off. Start making a situation that doesn't cause more and more injured vets to be entering the system, that way what little money you HAVE given the system will go further - and that means END THIS STUPID WAR!

This isn't "bleeding heart liberalism" this is financial sense. You can't cherry pick the parts of life that fit your viewpoint and ignore the parts that don't. It doesn't work that way, and you're only fooling yourself if you believe it does.

Whisperwolf, you need to clean your bong...

I read budgets for a living; the FY '08 proposal represents an increase of $37.8 billion, or 77 percent, from the 2001-2002 budget which was in effect when the Bush took office.

Each Budget since that date has had increases in Vets Affairs, and specifically in medical treatment and delivery systems.

Once again, no cuts, and no money was "diverted" the off-budget requests are function specific; each request is designated to a funding source.

Neologizer, my reading comprehension (as well as knowledge of the nature of the V.A.) is just fine.

My point is, if the government can't run the V.A., what business does it have trying to run an even more complex and infinitely larger nationalized system?

Shouldn't this example blow the concept of nationalized health care out of the water?

Walter Reed is the Army medical center - It is a military hospital run by and for active duty personel. It is a military entity

Yes, and the military is run by the DoD--a cabinet-level department, just like the VA.

It's socialized medicine, folks--I used it for 20 years.

Leo
Now I'm not in favor of socialized medicine by any means but if the government can't run the VA why are you using a US army hospital as an example?

Would be like saying the FBI has no business in law enforcement because the invasion of Iraq was botched.

If its so bad the give a clear example

What about learning from mistakes?

Bush gave a speech today where he said he is concerned about the conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. He is creating a bipartisan Presidential Commission in order to improve conditions at Walter Reed and to find out if similar problems exist at other military and veterans hospitals.

Hopefully, the Commission can learn why conditions broke down, how to correct the situation, and how to prevent them in the future.
If the conditions at Walter Reed improve we may have a blue print for creating and maintaining an effective and efficient healthcare system.

The findings from the Presidential Commission can help in establishing a nationalized health care system. We can make sure the nationalized health care system does not suffer the same fate as Walter Reed.

The findings from the Presidential Commission can help in establishing a nationalized health care system. We can make sure the nationalized health care system does not suffer the same fate as Walter Reed.

The end...

::::sigh::::::

neologizer--

What it comes down to is that nationalized health care will be run from a bureaucracy, just like the V.A. is run by a bureaucracy.

Name me one government bureaucracy that has customer satisfaction as its bottom line--and delivers.

You really want to trust a governmental entity to run health care?

uhhh Leo, Walter Reed was privitized.

According to the Army Times, an internal memo “describes how the Army’s decision to privatize support services at Walter Reed Army Medical Center was causing an exodus of ‘highly skilled and experienced personnel,’.... According to multiple sources, the decision to privatize support services at Walter Reed led to a precipitous drop in support personnel at Walter Reed.”

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/Weightmansubpoena/

If you're an honest man, you'll now conclude that privization of facilities management, patient care and guard duty at health care facilities is neither feasible nor practical. Case closed, right?

Instead of trying to fix that "socialized" VA health care unit, it should be totally privatized.

Injured troops and their families should be entirely responsible for paying for medical care and rehabilitation.

Bush already makes some troops pay for armor and other battlefield necessities, so why not?

Hey, they get injured it's their fault anyway, right? I mean just like Newt said of the Katrina victims, they were just "too stupid" to get out of the way of harm.

Remember, kids, this is an "ownership" society where if you get injured in rich mens' wars, you own it. It's your injury.

Wade

Mr. Pusateri:

Walter Reed was the crown jewel example of a government-run health care, until it was privatized by a $120 million contract to manage the center to a company owned by a former executive of Halliburton. Last year 300 government employees worked at Walter Reed. Today less than 100 employees of IAP Worldwide Services manages Walter Reed. The Pentagon blames the overburden bureaucratic government, but the real blame is privatization.

Whether anything is found or done about this, we are seeing exactly what Democrats promised, investigation after investigation.

In the Dmeocrats coup d'état, all they have to do is keep attacking and making out like they never knew what we know they knew all along.

As long as they paint the right as evil, inept, corrupt, American sheeple keep falling for it and Democrats are guaranteed permanent power.

Don't be deceived this is a coup d'état.

Wouldn't this then be a model of HillaryCARE and the exact reason to oppose her national healthcare plan?

Of coarse this will be Bush's fault...

I know this may be hard to believe, but some people are so evil they will risk the health of even wounded patriots maimed in the line of duty to make money. A great example in fiction would be the Orson Wells character in “The Third Man”. But men like Bush and Chaney make Harry Lime look like small time.

So, the brave men & women who have been injured fighting an unnessary war, instigated by folks who themselves have never seen the horrors of battle, are thanked for their service by arrogant
neglect. Regardless of who is responsible for the management of the hospitals, it is truly a sad and despicable reflection of how much value the 'masters of war' place on the lives of those they send to fight their battles.

Fantastic. Truly fantastic.

You are now using the failures of this REPUBLICAN Administration as evidence that Government doesn't work?

That should make for a great campaign slogan:
Vote Republican. We'll prove that you can't trust the Government

Fantastic. Truly fantastic.

You are now using the failures of this REPUBLICAN Administration as evidence that Government doesn't work?

That should make for a great campaign slogan:
Vote Republican. We'll prove that you can't trust the Government

Mark,

You should look before you leap.

As jonas pointed out, and (since you seemed to have missed it) as the uniformed heads testified yesterday, it was privatization which lead to much of the failures.

VA hospitals have been a cesspool for decades, but active duty health care was top notch...until the system found itself overwhelmed by "unforseen" injuries by a "surprising" resistence in Iraq and the DoD felt more privitization would solve the problems, just like they did in Iraq and the Gulf Coast.

Back to square one I guess!

"Walter Reed is the Army medical center - It is a military hospital run by and for active duty personel. It is a military entity

Yes, and the military is run by the DoD--a cabinet-level department, just like the VA.

It's socialized medicine, folks--I used it for 20 years.

Posted by: God is Great--Libs I Hate..."

There is nothing wrong with Walter Reed. Its just a bunch of "guardsmen bitching."

Right GIG?

Offer still stands GIG. Flight, full expenses, wages, etc... for you to say that to the soldiers at Walter Reed.
;) Whatcha waiting on. Its a free trip to see our wonderful capitol!

By the way you are not retired military, please stop perpetuating that falsehood.

Leo:
You are SPOT on in suggesting that if examples like Building 18 of Walter Reed and VA Hospitals are how government ran by bureaucrats will manage this wonderful happy happy joy joy nationalized universal healthcare plan.

There are these discussions that the doctors will make choices. That's pure bullplop. We all know that someone sitting in an office in Washington, DC will decide what will be covered UNIVERSALLY for everyone, dependent on that cost. And if it can't be done for that cost, it's up to the doctor to take it up the butt or the patient suffers.

I've never been to Walter Reed, and I've only been to a VA hospital ONCE during Clinton's time in office. The VA Hospital was just horrible. And this from a kid barely a teenager.

People like Whisperwolf can turn ANYTHING into a debate about Iraq. There are clouds in the sky today because of Iraq... Right Whisperwolf.

Just keep relating unrelated things to Iraq... it's all you have... one trick pony.

I really found this blog entry quite amusing.

Ok - so a news story breaks and it turns out that the government is not providing adequate care for war veterans at Walter Reid Hospital..

So what goes through my mind - Holy crap - thats horrible - we should provide health care for all those who need it - and unquestionably to those who got injured in service to their country. Lets figure fix the situation and figure out what went wrong...

Now - if I am to infer what you you were thinking from your posts - your logic goes something like this..
First post
- yeah its horrible - but the "real story" is how sick it is that democrats are politicizing the situation.

Whats wrong with you? I mean seriously - this is the important thing to point out. Of course its true - it is horrible that democrats are politicizing it. Just as its horrible when politicians do this all the time - both democrats and republicans. But seriously, you believe THIS is the thing to get upset about??

Your Second post goes something like
..
- Wow - look how bad a screw up this is. Clearly this shows that socialized health care is horrible . We should move to a completely privatized system. Really this shows how wrong the liberals are.
---

First - as other have pointed out this is factually incorrect - the hospital is actually a military institution its not the same thing as the VA. So regardless of what you think of the VA, socialized medicine, etc - you do realize that this is a completely separate issue? The issue here is that the military should have provided better care at Walter Reid - end of story.

Secondly, if you didn't have *some* sort of socialized health care - the majority of US soldiers especially those seriously wounded and unable to be on active duty and work would not have health care. Keep in mind that I am not saying that the only solution I would accept is completely socialized but that there needs to be some element of it to insure that everyone has coverage.

Leo,

You are wrong on all accounts. Walter Reed Medical Center is not government run. As Jonas said, it’s support services are run by private companies. You are also wrong that V.A. run hospitals are a failure. According to a Cato Institute study, V.A. run hospitals perform better than privately run hospitals. In the study, the Cato Institute found V.A. hospitals provide better care at lower cost than privately run hospitals, have higher patient satisfaction rate, and lower error rates. You are also wrong that Hillary Clinton did not espouse a government-run health care system. Her plan called for insurance coverage by HMO’s, not government-run healthcare.

kblack77:

spot on.

And how about kudos to FOX News for breaking this
story?

Rak,
"kblack77:
spot on.
And how about kudos to FOX News for breaking this
story?
Posted by: rakkasan3187"

It was the Washington Post (HUll & Priest)

Whats ironic about this: I had posted on a previous thread that the conditions at Walter Reed were widely known by family members and visitors (I myself have been to WR on many occasions).
I was basically called a liar by my fellow conservatives when I made that statement.

This was before the Washington Post printed a follow up that higher ups knew about the conditions and did nothing about it.

My memory may be faulty but I believe it was Kahn that specifically called me an a-hole for making the statement.

Leo,
From working with the Wounded Warriors Project, I believe you are misinformed about the the type of care provided to our vets.

1) Once they leave WR, if they do not live in an area with a major polytrauma VA medical center, they most likely will be enrolled in a private center which is paid for by the VA at market rates. I suggest you do a modicum of research on the 'private' health care provided to polytrauma soldiers. Its not pretty. There is usually a 60-90 delay, during which the rehabilitation is stalled. This is especially critical for TBI victims (TBI is a subset of polytrauma)

2) Walter Reed is NOT the premier hospital for polytrauma. It is a military hospital.
The James A. Haley VA Medical Center, in Tampa Florida, is by far THE best VA center in the nation.

Instead of regurgitating what Sen Shumer stated, I suggest you do the research yourself.

In fact you are completely misrepresenting the VA health system altogether.

I suggest you visit the VA polytrauma center in Minneapolis. You do live near there correct?

Tell me what you think about it.

If you have difficulty visiting, I know the director of visitor relations. The Wounded Warrior Project has worked with her on many occasions.

Im really surprised with your son being in Iraq and proximity of VAMC that you have never volunteered there. I believe someone on here mentioned you are a clinical psychologist. So the fact that you have not visited is even more troubling.

What the Walter Reed fiasco demonstrates (as if we needed more evidence of it) is this Administration's utter lack of competence when it comes to governing. Those of us over here on the left have known that the Bush folks are incapable of running ANYTHING properly for years, but now, finally, the folks on the right are starting to realize it too.

The evidence is overwhelming and it is hard to know where to begin. They turned the Interior department into a joke. The EPA was run by polluter lobbyists. The war in Iraq, of course, is the biggest example of Republican bumbling, but it goes on from there. No Child Left Behind? Underfunded and rejected by more states than I can list. Abu Ghraib. Michael Brown. Bernie Kerik. Harriet Miers. David Safavian. Jack Abramoff. Claude Allen (remember him?). Don Rumsfeld, of course. Paul Bremer. George Tenet. On and on and on and on.

And now we have the latest trifecta: the political firing of the Attorneys General all across the country, Libby's conviction and the disaster at Walter Reed.

All in all, there is only one, unescapable conclusion: the Bush Administration simply cannot govern effectively. They are dangerous clowns and, thank God, they are now lame duck clowns, thanks to the wisdom of the American voters in tossing out the GOP Congress.

About time, too.

Can someone forward all the memo's on to me? I missed the one that said conservatives are now ok with using the troops as political props.

As others pointed out, Walter Reed is being privatized. It might be worth investigating whether or not the same problems existed before the privatization began. Does anyone here want that issue actually studied?

Can anyone actually say that they are proud of the excellent job that our government has done of caring for injured soldiers here?

Who is currently responsible for arranging for medical treatment for wounded soldiers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it' the military. They obviously can't do that. the obvious solution, if you are a true believer in privatization, is for us to disband the military and hire mercenaries. If we feel strongly about freeing iraq, or bombing Iran, we can hire people to do it. Not "we" as in the federal government, but "we" as in those who support such things. Cut checks to overthrow Chavez, or attack North Korea, or whatever. Who's with me?

"Case closed?"

The case is not "closed" until two factual inaccuracies are corrected:

1) Walter Reed isn't VA.
2) Walter Reed is subcontracted to a private entity, rather than being run directly by the government.

Relying on flat factual inaccuracies as the basis for an argument isn't going to produce any conclusion worth talking about.

By the way you are not retired military, please stop perpetuating that falsehood.

And you know this how, cousin IT? Do you know me, or are you speculating based on my insulting, childish behaviour?

I am retired Air Force; I retired in 1996. Come on down to MD, and I'll show you my DD214 and my retired military ID card.

As for my remarks about the "bitching guardsmen," I was merely repeating the words of an amputee's father. I don't make crap up, cousin IT.

I don't need any air fare to WRAMC, butt-munch--I live about an hour away.
Jerk...

You live an hour away and yet you never visited any vets or participated in the Wounded Warrior Project.

Please dont back pedal on your comment about bitching guardsmen. Now you were 'just repeating' what someone else said. How quaint.

Offer still stands. Instead of flight, I will spring for a limo, food, lodging, wages, etc.

You can tell them you are 'merely repeating' what you heard someone else say.
You can bring your DD214 and I will donate $1000 to a charity of your choice.

If you feel uncomfortable dealing with me, because I could be some deranged fool, I will provide you with contact information for the WR liaison for the WWP.

How about it?

Wow... you can afford a limo after that chicken farm of yours got shut down by evil government?

Everyday, and with every word, you prove more and more you are NOT what you claim to be.

The only thing that you haven't said to prove your "conservative" credentials is to say that with the reform of Walter Reed, it will lead to a great birth of government run general healthcare for all Americans.

Go ahead and say that next, it'll just prove to everyone how conservative you really are.

You have fallen for EVERY PR fight the Left throws out. Prove you are a conservative, actually say something conservative... some sort of policy that a mainstream conservative would actually support.

wawilliyo,

I do more then farm. If you have read my posts you would know that. :)

"say something conservative... some sort of policy that a mainstream conservative would actually support."

How about you give me an example?

But, I am independent thinking, so I dont follow lockstep with what politicians define as conservative.

But its nice to see you adhere to the so-called conservative talking points.

:)

What, if anything I have said in this thread that would be construed as liberal PR?

Is it my participation in the WWP?
Is it my objection to someone referring to wounded soldiers as "a bunch of bitching guardsmen"?

It appears you support GIG statement about guardsmen at WR being a bunch of bitches.

wawilliyo,

I reread your post more carefully. Where did I say my farm was shut down by evil government?
My farm is still in operation. You display quite a bit of ignorance of what a farm consists of.
The chicken production was shut down.

Your reading comprehension is substandard.

Its pretty funny how GIG and I were have a conversation on this thread and it really didnt concern you, but yet you felt the need to try and belittle me.

Do I get under your skin too?

You weren't having a conversation... you were insulting him. Just as you accuse him of not serving... I made baseless accusations about yout and your "buddies."

Isn't it fun to have that.

And trust me... I'm A HELL of a lot smarter than you. Just go back to your first posts where you went on and on about Allen and what he did to you and your buddies... after all, that's the justification you use still when saying your a "conservative" but voted for Liberals and why you share their views now.

You can't even be consistent in your lame ass excuses.

"And trust me... I'm A HELL of a lot smarter than you."

That is probably true. I dont claim to be overly intelligent. But its nice to know just how smart you are. :) I will sleep more comfortable knowing that.

"after all, that's the justification you use still when saying your a "conservative" but voted for Liberals"
I voted for Webb. Im proud of that vote. Hell would have frozen over if I had voted to Allen.

You would not have voted for Allen if you had been in my situation. Or then again, you might be such a blind supporter that perhaps you would.
:)

It also turns out that the contractor for building 18 was the same company that couldn't deliver ice to New Orleans and was under investigation for that at the same time they were awarded the Walter Reed contract.

Privatization as a mantra simply ignores the facts that corporations and private companies are caught cheating and stealing on a regular basis, just read the front section of the Wall Street Journal on a regular basis. Hardly a day goes by without some company getting caught with their pants down on those pages, you know, the liberal media WSJ. Need I list the thousands of companies beyond Enron, Worldcom?

The care of soldiers should be in the governments hands for one good reason, because the money (our tax dollars) changes hands less times. The government is a more direct route from our wallets to the injured rather than having the government then turn it over to another entity, a private company. Every time money changes hands someone is taking a cut. As well, we the taxpayers can take more direct action against a government failure than a companies failure. How many people would be willing to go protest this Walter Reed situation to the company that was responsible. In fact, quick, without research, what was the name of the company? But we all know who to blame and who to write when it's the government. We all have representatives and know their names and can reach them easily by email.

And what might be this companies reaction to all this. Too often when faced with a big problem, private companies simply fold up shop, declare bankruptcy.

The answer; International American Products, Inc. (IAP).That's the company that couldn't deliver ice or maintain a building.

But who really cared about those in New Orleans after Katrina or our injured soldiers after Iraq? Apparently not IAP or the Pentagon for picking them.

So, what a surprise. This isn't really a left or right issue. You can blame the government AND a private company. Not everything is black and white, in fact few things are.

If you feel uncomfortable dealing with me, because I could be some deranged fool, I will provide you with contact information for the WR liaison for the WWP.

I'm really busy right now, cousin IT. My mom passed away Tuesday morning, and I'm not up to riding a limo down to WR right now.

Now did I say all the guardsmen were bitching? No, I did not. I was repeating what I heard a wounded soldier's father say on the radio. You can disbelieve me if you wish--I really don't care. And yes, I think you're a deranged fool who's full of yourself. So bugger off, 'kay?

Hey Keefer.

Sorry to hear about your Mom!

I can't speak for others, but I'll definitely say a prayer or two for her.

Navydad

keefer

My condolences on the death of your mother. So sorry for your loss.

Thanks, 'dad, and CO. Mom had Alzheimer's, and hadn't been "there" for awhile, so she's better off now. But she was my mom, and I'll always miss her.

keef, my condolences to your mom as well.

Many years ago I visited a friend of mine in New Joisey when he happened to be visiting his mom. His mom and her sister lived together at the time (they were both widowers), and they talked non-stop. They also both suffered from Alzheimers. They'd drift off into separate rooms, still talking to each other, though not fully hearing what each other said so they just filled in the gaps. I'm sure you know what I mean. Anyway, by the time they drifted back into the same room they'd be off on completely different tangents. Then they would spend the next half hour or so explaining to each other what they meant, as if the explanations themselves made any sense. To an outside observer such as me, it was absolutely hilarious. It was like a running Monty Python routine.

But it's not so funny when you're on the inside. On the inside it's anything but. My mom is getting there herself. So I appreciate your pain, and I will pray for your mom.

Thanks, Rico. That story reminds me of the time my mom, my blind, diabetic dog, and my sister's baby, who had just learned to walk, were all walking around in my brother's living room. It was like a scene from One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest.

Mom had a rough life, but she never complained. She was cool like that...