That's nice, but American taxpayer money should not be used for the security and defense of OTHER countries !!!!!!!!!!!!

I think if you asked Sean Penn or Elsie O'Donnell, they'd tell you that Israel is the biggest threat to peace in the Middle East, because of their oppression of the peace-loving Palestinians.

John Edwards feels the same way...

Its true of course that Israel is not responsible for all the worlds ills.

but
"Pardon me for pointing out that a fellow democracy simply can't be the problem when dealing with non-democratic State"

I think this is the crux of the problem that I have with this post - as well as many other of your posts. The underlying assumption that you make is that by *definition* everything that a "democratic" state does is pure, honest, and unquestionable. That there exists in this world only two types of states - the shining white knight and the evil axis.

Of course many Arab states have acted very poorly and in their own interests while claiming the Palestinian cause. But to make statements that claim that by *definition* Israel can do no wrong - and by *definition* any country which does not have the same form of government as ours is an enslaver of people. And then of course you have the usual rhetoric about how we have to go fight the crusades again to - convert the heathens and so on. Its not that I disagree that many of the governments are corrupt - quiet to the contrary many of them are - including our closest Allies - the Saudis. But our President holds hands with the King of Saudi Arabia - and turns a blind eye? We already have 150K troops next door - why not "free" them?

Something to consider though. Over 3.5 Million of the inhabitants of Israel cannot vote. Thats a little more than 1/3 of the 9 million there. So Israel is not a true democracy. Why aren't you as well advocating invading Israel to bring democracy to 1/3 of the inhabitants that are denied it?

I'm sorry Mark - if history both modern, contemporary, and the distant past have taught us anything it has taught us that doing what you propose just doesn't work. Further - the motives you would like to ascribe to those that advocate this in our government simply do not have them - or else they would simply not be such good allies with such deplorable governments such as Saudi Arabia. No, the motivation is much baser

Of course many Arab states have acted very poorly...

Rosie would be proud of this characterization of how Arab states "act."

...or else they would simply not be such good allies with such deplorable governments such as Saudi Arabia.

I trust you're not blaming this on Bush? We've been allies with the Saudis for decades. The Arabian Peninsula is a very strategic piece of land, oil nonwithstanding.

Spook, if you're out there, I know I'm contradicting what I said in my e-mail. I'm merely giving the professor the chance to step in it. Henceforth, I will practice what I preach...

C'mon, kblack. If President Bush declared war on Saudia Arabia, you'd all have a major s**t fit. Name one past president who didn't "hold hands" with Saudia Arabia.

The problem with the neorads is they can't see farther than a foot. They fail to see the big picture. Democracy in the M.E. is key to our survival.

Read on why democracy is so important in the M.E. and tell me if you think it's not and why.

of course Bush is not the first to have a close relationship with the Saudi's but him and his father had closer relationships than anyone else - and further the "yeah but Clinton did it too" doesn't mitigate anything one bit..

Of course I am not advocating the attack on Saudi Arabia or Israel - wow you guys really are crazy - I am simply pointing out that the supposed motives behind this are bankrupt

"The only solution to the problem is to physically insert ourselves into the heart of the middle east and force change upon the way of life. We can't win it any other way -..."

Easy for you to say. Hard to do with 140k troops, the majority of which are in just one city, Baghdad, and still find themselves outnumbered.
So, the question is: How do you accomplish physically inserting ourselves in a way that will have the effect you desire?

In 1965 we went from 120,000 troops in Vietnam to over 400,000. Of course we had a draft too. Are you suggesting a draft or just continuing to push our already overextended troops around the map of the Middle East and hope that something magical will happen.

Israel's safety and position is an American Interest but Israel's interests and American interests are not one and the same.

How do you do what you say?

of course Bush is not the first to have a close relationship with the Saudi's but him and his father had closer relationships than anyone else - and further the "yeah but Clinton did it too" doesn't mitigate anything one bit..

Wow! Rosie would be doubly proud. And it's "he and his father," not "him and his father."

Can't blame that one on phonetics, professor...

You say:
..."Pardon me for pointing out that a fellow democracy simply can't be the problem when dealing with non-democratic States..."
But,
..."The Palestinian results, which give an organization on the US list of terrorist groups a majority in the 132-seat Legislative Council, are part of a trend across Muslim countries, experts say."
And then,
"The "irony," Mr. Gerges adds, is that the Bush administration's championing of the Middle East's democratization has allowed the radical Islamists to "flex their political muscle" - from Egypt and Saudi Arabia to Lebanon and Iraq."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0127/p01s01-usfp.html

87% of the Jewish vote in our last Federal election went to the Democrats. Israel is becoming increasingly less secular and more orhodox as it moves towards the hard right. Jews have always recognized that their biggest danger comes from the right not the left.

Of course Israel wants us to have permanent bases in Iraq, thats a no-brainer.

"Name one past president who didn't "hold hands" with Saudia Arabia."

Now I'm not saying anything funny was going on, but did you see those pictures? Ya know I have had some great friends in my life, but, I don't remember strolling through the park holding hands like that.

I don't remember planting one on my buddy's kisser. I hearty handshake got me by. A gentle, but firm back slap. But hey, I'm not like that. I can tolerate some butt slappin' in pro football.

Please, as usual, spare me the H.S.

A stable democratic Iraq may have been possible if half a million US troops were put on the ground for ten or 15 years while the taxpayers ponied up the cost for it. For four years all we've seen is a hundred-fifty thousand troops playing insurgent wack-a-mole as the President Bush insists victory is just around the corner and demands additional borrowed emergency money from Congress in dribs and drabs while the American public watches American Idol and eats Doritos.

Anyone who thinks the President wants to do anything but run out the clock on Iraq until January 2009 better check the ingredients of the Kool-Aid they have been drinking.

kblack,

You're reading into my words things which aren't there - all I'm really saying is that in a conflict between democracy and non-democracy, the non-democracy is always right...the reason for this is because the action of the non-democracy is inherently illegitimate.

Its like this - when Israel sends a soldier out to fight, it is the expressed will of the people of Isreal, and that soldier will be audited by independent oberservers and if he does wrong, he will be punished and, of course, the government which sent him on his mission will suffer, perhaps even to being tossed out of office. When Iran sends out a soldier to fight, it is the will of a tiny clique of tyrants and the soldier will not be audited by anyone, unless the tyrants find it expedient to do so...no matter what that soldier does, the government which sent him out will not suffer any consequences, unless revolution breaks out.

Right now there is a dispute been Iran and Britain - Iran is making claims, Britain is making claims. Iran's claims are to be dismissed out of hand simply because we cannot rely upon independent audit of Iranian government actions to ferret out the truth. Iran may or may not be lying, but there is no way for us to tell, so we have to presume they are lying. Britain may or may not be lying, but as they are under the gun of public scrutiny where a lie can be discovered, we have to presume they are telling the truth.

Ooh, I so love all these talks about how countries that claim to be democracies are so good...

Just look at all the Americans that were disenfranchised in the last few elections, and you'll see how BUSH Democracy works. It consists of making sure dissenters are somehow excluded from voting on a large scale, and therefore the only votes left to count are supporters votes... Count them, and of course you win, and then you can claim you won a "democratic majority" and that you're one of the "good" states.

Unfortunately as November 2006 shows, there are no so many upset Americans that even disenfranchising those who he KNOWS will vote against him isn't going to stop him getting defeated.

But it's not 'democracy in action' and a president who says "I'm the decider, I'm not answerable to anyone [not even the people I supposedly democratically represent]" is not a democratic president, he's a dictator.

"The only solution to the problem is to physically insert ourselves into the heart of the middle east and force change upon the way of life."

Mark,

You and your one-track mind. We essentially purchased peace between Egypt and Israel, and that has proven the most lasting between Israel and any of her neighbors. Not to mention it was much easier than this whole "physical insertion" business. The Administration's failure to engage the Islamic world diplomatically and politically serves to the detriment of our military efforts there and to the interests of Israel and peace.

Gar Wood

unfortunately your argument doesn't hold Mark
for two reasons

your insistence that whenever there is a conflict between a democratic government and a non-democratic government the democratic government is *always* right by *definition* is just absurd. It of course depends on the situation and WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Thats a key difference between my world view and yours and Bush's world view. If you want an explicit example take the Bay of Tonkin incident. And its really telling that you think this way - because then in your mind - no matter what the actual facts are - it doesn't matter because you are "right" by definition.

Secondly, its simply not true that any action taken by the government in a democracy is automatically the will of the people. Was it the will of the people that Nixon break into Watergate? Most Americans do not want the "surge" yet Bush doesn't anyway. How is that the will of the people Mark?

No - facts matter. What actually happened between the British and Iranian sailors matters. The idea that we should assume that we are never wrong is precisely the sort of arrogant, mindless, blundering that has gotten us into all of this mess..

This is an example of the pure evil of Islam that President Bush is combatting in Iraq. Anyone want to engage these people "diplomatically and politically"?!?

Muslim Persecution of Christians in Iraq: Lgf,
"Just when you think you can’t possibly be any more appalled by the savagery of the jihadis, you read something like this. From Damian Thompson’s blog at the Telegraph:" "The Christian victims of Iraq."

The West’s lack of interest in the fate of the Assyrians is disgusting, as you can read in this brilliant article by Ed West in the Catholic Herald. Here is how the piece starts:

“When they cook a dish in the Middle East, it is traditional to put the meat on top of the rice when they serve it. They kidnapped a woman’s baby in Baghdad, a toddler, and because the mother was unable to pay the ransom, they returned her child – beheaded, roasted and served on a mound of rice.

“The infant’s crime was to be an Assyrian, but this story, reported by the Barnabus Fund, went unnoticed in the West, like so many other horrific accounts of Christian persecution in Iraq. Since the invasion of Iraq, Muslim militants have bombed 28 churches and murdered hundreds of Christians. Last October, Islamists beheaded a priest in Mosul in revenge for the Pope’s remarks about Islam at Regensburg.”

The Muslim Palestinians do NOT want peace with Israel. They want to destroy Israel. In the meantime, they're destroying each other....

Death Cult Civil War Watch: LGF, "As the intra-terrorist violence continues in Gaza (downplayed by the mainstream wire services’ Palestinian enablers), a 7-year old boy is killed in his own home, apparently by one of his father’s hand grenades.

Fighting between Hamas and Fatah continued yesterday in the Northern Gaza Strip, with Hamas gunmen ambushing and wounding a detachment of seven Fatah men. Local residents reportedly protected the Fatah men.

The 7-year-old son of a Hamas operative was killed yesterday in the Gaza Strip when a hand grenade went off inside the family home.

That's how you respond to information Freedom1? "Sure, but...but...terrible evil people are in the world! We must freak out."

How about this:
"Most shocking barbarities begin to be reported as practiced ... upon the wounded and prisoners ... that fall into their hands," read an editorial in the New York Times. "We are told of their slashing the throats of some from ear to ear; of their cutting off the heads of others and kicking them about as footballs; and of their setting up the wounded against trees and firing at them as targets or torturing them with plunges of bayonets into their bodies."

Of course, that was from 1861. Describing what the Confederacy soldiers were doing to Union soldiers.

"The problem isn't free people fighting for what is right but, rather, the enslavers of populations who have evil designs upon the world."-MN

That would be the Islamic terrorists who are waging a GLOBAL JIHAD against ALL non-Muslims.

Religion of Peace Strikes Again in Thailand "Buddhists shot dead by Islam rebels"

SUSPECTED Islamic rebels shot dead four Buddhists while three others were injured in separate attacks in Thailand’s Muslim-majority south.

An elderly couple were shot at point-blank range yesterday by four militants who posed as customers at their grocery shop in Ra Nage district of Narathiwat, one of three restive southern provinces bordering Malaysia, police said. Militants then placed a bomb inside the shop that was aimed at killing police officers investigating the crime. The bomb exploded but no one was injured.

In neighboring Pattani province, a 61-year-old Buddhist was shot dead in a drive-by shooting while he was riding a motorcycle.

A 49-year-old man was also gunned down late Friday in front of his house by two people on a motorcycle in Pattani.

Elsewhere, a 37-year-old Buddhist was injured in a drive-by shooting in nearby Yala province, and a Buddhist couple were also wounded in a small roadside bomb explosion in the province.

More than 2000 people have been killed since separatist violence erupted three years ago in the south. The violence has worsened since a September coup, despite a series of peace initiatives by the army-installed Government.

LGF, "Who could ever have predicted that appeasement would only embolden the jihadis?"

Carsick if you want to understand what is going on then read this: The Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations

You still don't get it Freedom1.
Israels interests and American interests are not always the same thing. Plus, the writer of that article is a far right winger Israeli who believes in Israel first, America second.
I'm of the opposite view.

Carsick, I seriously doubt that you had the time to read the whole article in 16 minutes. Go back and read the whole thing. I'll be back in a few hours.

All I can say is that each religion has in it's scriptures words that can be interpreted different ways and I doubt some far right Israeli can define those scriptures with any sense of objectivity.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Sorry, but the ugly truth of the entire matter is this:
Islam delenda est.

Macker,
Cute. Do you also ascribe to "America uber alles" or just "Christianity uber alles"?
Either way you should be aware that it's going to take a whole lot more than troops to deal with the 52 nations that are majority Muslim in the world. If you haven't noticed, we're a bit bogged down in a single city right now.

kblack,

In the Gulf of Tonkin incident the main thing, as far as I'm concerned, is that the illegitmate regime in North Vietnam had no cause for complaint - or, indeed, any cause to be in any way, shape or form under arms. Had they properly surrendered their power, there never would have been any problem.

Macker's correct - Islam delenda est.

That's how you respond to information Freedom1? "Sure, but...but...terrible evil people are in the world! We must freak out."

Freedom, cardick probably doesn't even read your entire posts, much less the links you provide. He's a blind, loyal parrot...

Mark,

When you were listing democracies in the Middle East, you forgot to mention Palestine, whose leaders are itching to fight the Zionist Entity. Palestine's democratically elected leaders, Hamas, call for the destruction of Israel.

keefer,
I expect the level of dialogue and understanding of historical, contemporary and regional circumstances exhibited here will help the republican party get the best results they can hope for in the 2008 elections.
At some point I also expect you will change a variety of your views to accommodate those of the next republican candidate you hope to win the presidency.

Still waiting though for Mark Noonan to explain the strategy to get the Iraqis and others in the Middle East to accept American occupation of that country and become a non-Islamic, Western-leaning democracy.
Not holding my breath though.