Jesus looked at him and loved him. He told him, "You're still missing one thing. Sell everything you have. Give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then follow me!" (Mark 10:21)
PS:
You also owe about $29,293.53, which is your shae of the federal debt as of today.
Wade
Posted by: Wade at March 9, 2007 03:38 AM
Wade,
Is that it? Not even 10% of my mortgage...in a nearly $13 trillion dollar economy, our national debt is a trivial thing...and, after all, it is only money.
Very difficult it is for a rich man to get into heaven...not because being rich is evil, but because being rich distracts you from what is important.
Posted by: Mark Noonan at March 9, 2007 03:47 AM
Hmmm, could you send me one of your TV's, Mark? My 19-inch TV was made in 1986, back when TVs were still made in America.
I kid! But I envy your granite countertops. Mine are made of simple ivory.
Posted by: Bob Arctor at March 9, 2007 04:16 AM
Averages don't mean anything. What are needed are median values, and these aren't given here. If the rich get richer, we all, on average, get richer, even if we don't individually. If Bill Gates is in a room with five homeless folks, they are all, on average, multi-millionaires.
Posted by: dr. luba at March 9, 2007 09:32 AM
I'm just afraid I'm going to have to pay the A.M.T. this year.
Posted by: Kahn at March 9, 2007 09:49 AM
Is that it? Not even 10% of my mortgage...in a nearly $13 trillion dollar economy, our national debt is a trivial thing...and, after all, it is only money.
If that's such a paltry sum, surely you have no objection to paying enough taxes to cover your share.
Posted by: Aztec at March 9, 2007 10:45 AM
You know what else is up? Personal debt. Ooh, and don't forget foreclosures and missed mortgage payments.
You know what's down? American's savings rate - which was negative for the first time in generations.
Posted by: copyboy1@earthlink.net at March 9, 2007 10:48 AM
Mark Noonan : Our fabulous wealth has given us just too much time on our hands - time which is turned into useless yet destructive things like feminist studies departments at colleges.
Roderick: How much of our wealth do you think comes from women working which is the result of those damn feminists?
Posted by: Roderick at March 9, 2007 10:53 AM
This discussion needs to include a recognition of how much of the benefits of the Bush economy are flowing to, not just the walthiest, but the wealthiest of the wealthiest. The article indicates that much of the increase in wealth came from stocks. The fact is that, while a great many people have a few token shares of stock, a high percentage of stock is owned by only a small share of the population. This is wildly skewing the "average" wealth figures.
Thee REAL experience of MOST families in this country is that they are being squeezed between stagnant incomes and soaring costs for health care, energy and their chilren's education. It is long past time that the apologists for Bush wake up to that simple fact.
Posted by: Debra P. at March 9, 2007 11:35 AM
"never in all of human history have so many people been so fabulously wealthy as average Americans are."
The data says nothing about average americans. The data talks about ALL americans as a whole. Given the large income disparity between the top few percent and everyone else, your assertion really falls flat.
Given that most people make less than 30,000 a year, you assertion that average americans are wealthy is quite absurd. Wealth is defined as assets that provide income...most americans don't have much of that.
Furthermore, mentioning your personal financial state is nothing more than anecdotal evidence, and not indicative of any larger trend.
Basically, you've reached a conclusion not borne out by the data, and you should rethink it.
Posted by: ME at March 9, 2007 11:41 AM
Wade,
Because there is a lag of two years in calculations of charitable contributions, as of 2006; the nation as a whole over the previous decade, the number of taxpayers rose 12%; their average income increased 44%; and their average giving rose 64%. As a result, total itemized giving more than doubled — an increase of 117%.
Charitable organizations have reported record income in 2005-2006 from contributions even as the IRS changes took effect in 2006. Bottom line; as Americans get richer, we give more to Charity. Actual quantification can't be done until 2008.
Aztec,
According to the CBO’s report “In the CBO’s estimation, […] the total baseline budget deficit minus the effects of the business cycle-will decline from 1.8% of potential GDP in 2006 to 1.1% in 2007 and 0.5% in 2008”.
Trust me, I pay a hell of a lot more than my "share" in taxes.
Posted by: Dasein Libsbane at March 9, 2007 12:26 PM
To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I do not think this report means what you think it means.
This just says that, as a pool, household net worth rose last year. It does not mean that all ships rose with that particular tide.
If you have 5 friends and, out of the 6 of you, 2 of you lost your jobs, 2 of you got new jobs, doubling your previous salary and the last 2 of you got a small raise but, maybe did well with your stock portfolios, your GROUP net worth may have risen, but I don't think the 2 people without jobs are feeling any richer and the 2 in the middle may be better off on paper, but a nice stock portfolio doesn't help you at the grocery.
Oh, and one more thing, as property prices tumble, your net assets will tumble, as well.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: mmmm ... sultry at March 9, 2007 12:36 PM
I love that when comments clearly discredit what you are saying, you just delete them.
What goes on in your mind as you do that? You obviously recognize the post as a danger to your argument... do you ignore the truth at that point?
Maybe you just don't want to admit that you are wrong no matter what the evidence is...it's a common trait among Bush supporters.
Posted by: ME at March 9, 2007 12:43 PM
Really? “… as property prices tumble, your net assets will tumble, as well." Is that right?
Then please explain how this report states that net worth rose in the forth quarter of 2006, when the value of single family homes dropped precipitously in the 3rd and 4th quarters.
The over simplistic analysis of you and your five friends that got fired from McDonald’s doesn't hold water either; net worth/liabilities ratio combined with the savings/earnings ration indicate that the majority of the increase in wealth is reinvested in the economy. The total number of taxpayers and the recent drop in unemployment also indicate that the number of “rising boats” is consistent with the thesis that Americans are wealthier by mean, median and average.
Posted by: Dasein Libsbane at March 9, 2007 01:47 PM
"The over simplistic analysis of you and your five friends that got fired from McDonald’s doesn't hold water either; net worth/liabilities ratio combined with the savings/earnings ration indicate that the majority of the increase in wealth is reinvested in the economy. The total number of taxpayers and the recent drop in unemployment also indicate that the number of 'rising boats' is consistent with the thesis that Americans are wealthier by mean, median and average."
Coupla points. One, Mean and Average are the same thing. Just different words.
Two, on saving/earning ratios, remember that the majority of Americans currently enjoy a NEGATIVE savings ratio. I believe the same is true of net worth/liabilities ratio. Now, of course, this may really be more an indicator of lack of discipline on the parts of these households, but it can also suggest that the cost of acquiring many necessities is beyond their reach without financing.
I have no idea how many American households own stock, but I believe the number is substantially below 50%. That means the article's main named origin of increased wealth, stock gains, AUTOMATICALLY makes median wealth increase substantially below average.
I'm not saying economic times are bleak by any means, but to crow about wealth increases without citing a meaningful statistic like the median is nuts.
Posted by: David I at March 9, 2007 04:11 PM
That's just not true - and it is stated in a way that makes it a perniciously malicious lie.
Household income for the wealthies families is up - mostly as a result of extortion, fraud and profiteering on "gummint"
contracts directly related to Publican pet projects, like war for profit.
For many, many of us who are hard working Americn taxpayers desperately trying to provide for our famailies, our incomes have not risen in years - and that is directly related to a new level of greed and miserly meanness on the part of rich Publican families who exercise excessive and inappropriate political influence with the corrupt Bush/Cheney cabal.
In part, I am talking about families like the DeVoses, the Waltons, the Timkins and the Princes - families who consider themselves to be more important than the national security interests of this Great Republic. And who do not care one tiny little bit about anyone or anything other than themselves - including this country and Jesus.
Posted by: fiskhus jim at March 9, 2007 04:27 PM
2. Our fabulous wealth has given us just too much time on our hands - time which is turned into useless yet destructive things like gambling at Las Vegas casinos.
Sorry Mark, that was just too hard to resist.
;)
Posted by: IT for life at March 9, 2007 04:52 PM
are you really that unaware to think that average americans are awash in wealth as you say?
That's great that you have all these nice things, but there is still an exorbitantly large number of people who don't have all these nice things (see: folks in trailers living pay check to paycheck...). And how about all the average oprah americans who are leveraged to the hilt in credit card debt in order to pay for their granite countertops??
Such wonderful, selfless sentiments you share, "me, me, me...I'm good so to heck with everyone else." Sheesh.
Posted by: sweet j at March 9, 2007 05:19 PM
Dasein:
I don't think you will find an economist that will say with a straight face that the primary asset for most Americans is their home. That is econ 101; of course the net worth averages rise and fall with the housing market. The report I read, as linked by this post, said that the housing market had leveled out over the last quarter, which was the primary reason for the increase in net worth being what it was (even though it did rise at a lower rate than the last quarter of '05 because of the housing downturn in the first quarters of '06).
Also, I doubt you will find anybody to agree with you that the stunning lack of savings shown by the current citizenry is anything but bad news.
Posted by: JAW at March 9, 2007 05:44 PM
Dr. Luba:
Actually, if 5 homeless people are in a room with Bill Gates then they have an average net worth of $15 billion (more or less)(15,000 million -- technically multi-millionaires but not in the sense that most people use the term). Unfortunately, their median net worth is zero. But you are correct that aggregate data such as quoted here is not very informative as to how things are for "most Americans", the "average American," or any specific subset of Americans one way or the other. Furthermore, those figures may or may not take into account that a lot of that household "wealth" is actually in IRA's and 401(k) plans that are taking the place of the pensions that the last generation enjoyed.
Steve
Posted by: Steve Jung at March 9, 2007 06:15 PM
Most people I know who are middle class don't have two big screen televisions or granite counter tops. Nether do they have top end appliances or mortgages that almost three hundred thousand dollars. While I am middle class I don't come close being in your range. I would say you don't represent the middle class at all, but are more of the higher class. And for you information the middle class incomes have not keep up with inflation at all. The incomes that have ready increase are those of the higher class and not the middle class. And on top of that is the increase healthcare cost that is hurting most middle class and the poor. That need to be address and the national debt is out of control and it will soon or later create some severe problems for all Americans.
Posted by: terry at March 10, 2007 12:17 PM
Bill Gates gets into an elevator alone except for a homeless guy. The average net worth of the people in the elevator is a few billion dollars. What's that homeless guy got to complain about? Geesh.
Posted by:
Dean Booth at March 10, 2007 12:49 PM
Oops, I didn't see Steve's comment. Sorry about that. Steve is right.
Posted by:
Dean Booth at March 10, 2007 12:56 PM
The divide between rich and poor is greater than ever. The top percentile has gotten richer; the bottom and, incidentally, the Middle Class, has been losing ground, as many of the comments above testify. The number of jobs lost, permanently, is staggering; any uptick here or there is a blip on the horizon. The worst part about all this is the weakening of our economy is starting to affect the debt on our government bonds, which are now held by such countries as Japan and China, who can jettison them, and plunge us into chaos, any time they want. Our dollar is weak, with the Euro standing at $1.30, which means we've lost 30% (wow!!! think of it!!! 1/3rd!) against foreign currencies. Our major companies, like GM, are dying on the vine. So please continue to tell us how wonderful things are.
Posted by: OCPatriot at March 11, 2007 10:00 PM
You don't think that the Democrats can use the economy as a big Republican-beating stick in '08? Hey, whatever keeps you complacent. But remember that half of all stock and bond wealth is owned by the wealthiest 1% of households.
Posted by: Bryce at March 12, 2007 12:25 PM
Jesus looked at him and loved him. He told him, "You're still missing one thing. Sell everything you have. Give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then follow me!" (Mark 10:21)
PS:
You also owe about $29,293.53, which is your shae of the federal debt as of today.
Wade
Wade,
Is that it? Not even 10% of my mortgage...in a nearly $13 trillion dollar economy, our national debt is a trivial thing...and, after all, it is only money.
Very difficult it is for a rich man to get into heaven...not because being rich is evil, but because being rich distracts you from what is important.
Hmmm, could you send me one of your TV's, Mark? My 19-inch TV was made in 1986, back when TVs were still made in America.
I kid! But I envy your granite countertops. Mine are made of simple ivory.
Averages don't mean anything. What are needed are median values, and these aren't given here. If the rich get richer, we all, on average, get richer, even if we don't individually. If Bill Gates is in a room with five homeless folks, they are all, on average, multi-millionaires.
I'm just afraid I'm going to have to pay the A.M.T. this year.
Is that it? Not even 10% of my mortgage...in a nearly $13 trillion dollar economy, our national debt is a trivial thing...and, after all, it is only money.
If that's such a paltry sum, surely you have no objection to paying enough taxes to cover your share.
You know what else is up? Personal debt. Ooh, and don't forget foreclosures and missed mortgage payments.
You know what's down? American's savings rate - which was negative for the first time in generations.
Mark Noonan : Our fabulous wealth has given us just too much time on our hands - time which is turned into useless yet destructive things like feminist studies departments at colleges.
Roderick: How much of our wealth do you think comes from women working which is the result of those damn feminists?
This discussion needs to include a recognition of how much of the benefits of the Bush economy are flowing to, not just the walthiest, but the wealthiest of the wealthiest. The article indicates that much of the increase in wealth came from stocks. The fact is that, while a great many people have a few token shares of stock, a high percentage of stock is owned by only a small share of the population. This is wildly skewing the "average" wealth figures.
Thee REAL experience of MOST families in this country is that they are being squeezed between stagnant incomes and soaring costs for health care, energy and their chilren's education. It is long past time that the apologists for Bush wake up to that simple fact.
"never in all of human history have so many people been so fabulously wealthy as average Americans are."
The data says nothing about average americans. The data talks about ALL americans as a whole. Given the large income disparity between the top few percent and everyone else, your assertion really falls flat.
Given that most people make less than 30,000 a year, you assertion that average americans are wealthy is quite absurd. Wealth is defined as assets that provide income...most americans don't have much of that.
Furthermore, mentioning your personal financial state is nothing more than anecdotal evidence, and not indicative of any larger trend.
Basically, you've reached a conclusion not borne out by the data, and you should rethink it.
Wade,
Because there is a lag of two years in calculations of charitable contributions, as of 2006; the nation as a whole over the previous decade, the number of taxpayers rose 12%; their average income increased 44%; and their average giving rose 64%. As a result, total itemized giving more than doubled — an increase of 117%.
Charitable organizations have reported record income in 2005-2006 from contributions even as the IRS changes took effect in 2006. Bottom line; as Americans get richer, we give more to Charity. Actual quantification can't be done until 2008.
Aztec,
According to the CBO’s report “In the CBO’s estimation, […] the total baseline budget deficit minus the effects of the business cycle-will decline from 1.8% of potential GDP in 2006 to 1.1% in 2007 and 0.5% in 2008”.
Trust me, I pay a hell of a lot more than my "share" in taxes.
To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I do not think this report means what you think it means.
This just says that, as a pool, household net worth rose last year. It does not mean that all ships rose with that particular tide.
If you have 5 friends and, out of the 6 of you, 2 of you lost your jobs, 2 of you got new jobs, doubling your previous salary and the last 2 of you got a small raise but, maybe did well with your stock portfolios, your GROUP net worth may have risen, but I don't think the 2 people without jobs are feeling any richer and the 2 in the middle may be better off on paper, but a nice stock portfolio doesn't help you at the grocery.
Oh, and one more thing, as property prices tumble, your net assets will tumble, as well.
Just sayin'.
I love that when comments clearly discredit what you are saying, you just delete them.
What goes on in your mind as you do that? You obviously recognize the post as a danger to your argument... do you ignore the truth at that point?
Maybe you just don't want to admit that you are wrong no matter what the evidence is...it's a common trait among Bush supporters.
Really? “… as property prices tumble, your net assets will tumble, as well." Is that right?
Then please explain how this report states that net worth rose in the forth quarter of 2006, when the value of single family homes dropped precipitously in the 3rd and 4th quarters.
The over simplistic analysis of you and your five friends that got fired from McDonald’s doesn't hold water either; net worth/liabilities ratio combined with the savings/earnings ration indicate that the majority of the increase in wealth is reinvested in the economy. The total number of taxpayers and the recent drop in unemployment also indicate that the number of “rising boats” is consistent with the thesis that Americans are wealthier by mean, median and average.
"The over simplistic analysis of you and your five friends that got fired from McDonald’s doesn't hold water either; net worth/liabilities ratio combined with the savings/earnings ration indicate that the majority of the increase in wealth is reinvested in the economy. The total number of taxpayers and the recent drop in unemployment also indicate that the number of 'rising boats' is consistent with the thesis that Americans are wealthier by mean, median and average."
Coupla points. One, Mean and Average are the same thing. Just different words.
Two, on saving/earning ratios, remember that the majority of Americans currently enjoy a NEGATIVE savings ratio. I believe the same is true of net worth/liabilities ratio. Now, of course, this may really be more an indicator of lack of discipline on the parts of these households, but it can also suggest that the cost of acquiring many necessities is beyond their reach without financing.
I have no idea how many American households own stock, but I believe the number is substantially below 50%. That means the article's main named origin of increased wealth, stock gains, AUTOMATICALLY makes median wealth increase substantially below average.
I'm not saying economic times are bleak by any means, but to crow about wealth increases without citing a meaningful statistic like the median is nuts.
That's just not true - and it is stated in a way that makes it a perniciously malicious lie.
Household income for the wealthies families is up - mostly as a result of extortion, fraud and profiteering on "gummint"
contracts directly related to Publican pet projects, like war for profit.
For many, many of us who are hard working Americn taxpayers desperately trying to provide for our famailies, our incomes have not risen in years - and that is directly related to a new level of greed and miserly meanness on the part of rich Publican families who exercise excessive and inappropriate political influence with the corrupt Bush/Cheney cabal.
In part, I am talking about families like the DeVoses, the Waltons, the Timkins and the Princes - families who consider themselves to be more important than the national security interests of this Great Republic. And who do not care one tiny little bit about anyone or anything other than themselves - including this country and Jesus.
2. Our fabulous wealth has given us just too much time on our hands - time which is turned into useless yet destructive things like gambling at Las Vegas casinos.
Sorry Mark, that was just too hard to resist.
;)
are you really that unaware to think that average americans are awash in wealth as you say?
That's great that you have all these nice things, but there is still an exorbitantly large number of people who don't have all these nice things (see: folks in trailers living pay check to paycheck...). And how about all the average oprah americans who are leveraged to the hilt in credit card debt in order to pay for their granite countertops??
Such wonderful, selfless sentiments you share, "me, me, me...I'm good so to heck with everyone else." Sheesh.
Dasein:
I don't think you will find an economist that will say with a straight face that the primary asset for most Americans is their home. That is econ 101; of course the net worth averages rise and fall with the housing market. The report I read, as linked by this post, said that the housing market had leveled out over the last quarter, which was the primary reason for the increase in net worth being what it was (even though it did rise at a lower rate than the last quarter of '05 because of the housing downturn in the first quarters of '06).
Also, I doubt you will find anybody to agree with you that the stunning lack of savings shown by the current citizenry is anything but bad news.
Dr. Luba:
Actually, if 5 homeless people are in a room with Bill Gates then they have an average net worth of $15 billion (more or less)(15,000 million -- technically multi-millionaires but not in the sense that most people use the term). Unfortunately, their median net worth is zero. But you are correct that aggregate data such as quoted here is not very informative as to how things are for "most Americans", the "average American," or any specific subset of Americans one way or the other. Furthermore, those figures may or may not take into account that a lot of that household "wealth" is actually in IRA's and 401(k) plans that are taking the place of the pensions that the last generation enjoyed.
Steve
Most people I know who are middle class don't have two big screen televisions or granite counter tops. Nether do they have top end appliances or mortgages that almost three hundred thousand dollars. While I am middle class I don't come close being in your range. I would say you don't represent the middle class at all, but are more of the higher class. And for you information the middle class incomes have not keep up with inflation at all. The incomes that have ready increase are those of the higher class and not the middle class. And on top of that is the increase healthcare cost that is hurting most middle class and the poor. That need to be address and the national debt is out of control and it will soon or later create some severe problems for all Americans.
Bill Gates gets into an elevator alone except for a homeless guy. The average net worth of the people in the elevator is a few billion dollars. What's that homeless guy got to complain about? Geesh.
Oops, I didn't see Steve's comment. Sorry about that. Steve is right.
The divide between rich and poor is greater than ever. The top percentile has gotten richer; the bottom and, incidentally, the Middle Class, has been losing ground, as many of the comments above testify. The number of jobs lost, permanently, is staggering; any uptick here or there is a blip on the horizon. The worst part about all this is the weakening of our economy is starting to affect the debt on our government bonds, which are now held by such countries as Japan and China, who can jettison them, and plunge us into chaos, any time they want. Our dollar is weak, with the Euro standing at $1.30, which means we've lost 30% (wow!!! think of it!!! 1/3rd!) against foreign currencies. Our major companies, like GM, are dying on the vine. So please continue to tell us how wonderful things are.
You don't think that the Democrats can use the economy as a big Republican-beating stick in '08? Hey, whatever keeps you complacent. But remember that half of all stock and bond wealth is owned by the wealthiest 1% of households.