Using military force against Iran may hurt their feelings, we need to consider that. Wouldnt diplomacy be a better route to pursue, rather than military action? Words, not bombs.

Now if youll excuse me, I need to find my keffiyah and head to the mosque; the muezzin is calling the faithful to prayer again.

Wouldnt diplomacy be a better route to pursue, rather than military action?

Posted by: Bacon-I Will Miss Thee at January 14, 2007 02:43 PM

It might be a foreign concept and a novel approach for y'all, but you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it.

Are you joking? Contrary to neocon belief, the American military is not capable of indulging every half-baked foriegn policy blunder you can dream up. I wish we could invade every country that didn't like us, but at some point, reality comes into play. Consider overextended troops, overused equipment and the fact that Iran is larger, wealthier and presents more strategic difficulties than that other country we have yet to secure. And what about after the invasion? Or have you not thought that far ahead...maybe we can use the Paul Wolfowitz plan of using the oil revenues to pay for it, after all, it worked great in Iraq.

Ed. Note: Leftwing rant edited for brevity -

Bush is Satan.

Mark, after reading your blog for the past year, i can honestly say you have no clue what your talking about when it comes to foreign relations.

- HOW are you going to attack Iran. Please answer that question. Are you going to invade and occupy the country? Are you just going to have an air campaign and hope to bomb them into submission? What is your "war plan" for Iran.

- Truth is that Iran has the right to nuclear weapons and nuclear technology. You can't deny that fact. Iran is actually free unlike your "Allies" in the Middle East. You turn a blind eye toward them because they are your lapdogs. Iran meanwhile is the only country in the Middle East who does what it wants without being scared of the United States. besides, your country has always been a paper tiger. Every war you have entered since 1945, you have always either withdrawn or made peace. Your soldiers simply do not have the will to fight a long war. Neither do your people for that matter.

We have tried it, or more specifically we and the europeans have tried it with results that are less than spectacular. When Iran tells us that ANY attempt to control their nuclear desires will be met with "undesirable consequences", Id chalk that one into the 'diplomacy isnt working' category.

Though I suppose we could keep trying, it worked so well with the North Koreans, eh?

Thats damn correct. ANY attempts to control a sovereign nation's right to nuclear technology or weapons for that matter should be met with undesirable consequences. Your not dealing with your slaves the arabs here. If you can stop Iran, go ahead and try it.

hahaha..you expect to be able to interfere with a sovereign country's internal matters and get a happy response???? you americans are more idiotic than i thought.

Iran is a sovereign nation and has the RIGHT to whatever weapons and technology it wants.

Sure GT, sure, tough guy that you are. If those consequences included suicide bombings in your city, you would be the first one in line at the local army base, demanding protection.

Save the moral relativism arguments that you are preparing, I have already figured you out. LOL!

BTW, your definition of freedom must have been gleaned from the 'Sturm Abteilung Handbook', unless you believe that Iranian women being barred from presidential office represents freedom. Free, huh? Hehehehehehe

Dont sweat GT, bacon, he's one of those faux activists, talking big about 'The Revolution' while sitting in the rents basement and playing Xbox.

Supporting the Iranian regime, which even the Iranian people deplore, is just a ploy to make himself feel 'edgy' and hopefully impress girls who eschew cosmetics and never shave their legs.

Bacon:
GT has stated before that he/she is from Iran.

When someone believes that women shouldn't hold office or that unless a candidate is approved by a group of hardline religious extremists, generally you'll get statements like GT just made.

Ya, Iran is a sovereign nation. A nation that signed the non-proliferation treaty and is a member of the United Nations. With rights, come responsibilities. Of course, President Ahmadinejad believe's Iran's rights and responsibilities is to foment terrorism around the globe and to try and destroy Israel.

I'm surprised GT came to this country to study. I figured our horrible nation had nothing to offer him/her. Unless maybe you're studying up on how to attack us.

God Bless freedom of speech... too bad your country doesn't have it yet.

Iran is actually free unlike your "Allies" in the Middle East.

GT has stated before that he/she is from Iran.

OK GTgrad, go back to Iran, start criticizing your leaders on a website blog, or by speaking out, or by whatever other means you choose, and see how long your freedom lasts. Go ahead, try it.

I'm with W. kill em' all. Every one of anyone.

screw it- after all the "mid-east peace plan" begins with "war" right?

You know- we do enough killin' maiming and pillaging- i might just re-up and also change my party status to the GOP.

Keep workin' me guys- i'm with ya.

Iran does not bar women from running for office. If you did a little research. Iran's VICE PRESIDENT is Iranian you ignorant americans. You want to talk about freedoms? why don't you criticize your buddies in Saudi, or your buddies in Pakistan...oh wait thats right, they are your lapdogs, so you turn a blind eye toward them.

Second of all, Iranians have never attacked another country, and occupied it based on lies.

Third of all, the Iranian revolution was started by the PEOPLE. What part of that don't you undertand. Contrary to your wrong ignorant beliefs, the Iranian people support the regime of Iran.

So BS admits to: "killin' maiming and pillaging" in the past, having the desire to participate in "killin' maiming and pillaging" or both. Why does that not surprise me?

Anyhoo, Ill go along with the crowd. When GT can actively criticise Iran's ruling mullahs in downtown Tehran, Ill believe Iran is free.

The Iranian revolution was started by the PEOPLE you ignorant fool. Why is that so hard to understand. Unlike your regimes in Saudi, Pakistan, Israel, Jordan, Egypt and so on an so forth. Iran's people actually brough about the change and threw out your slave in 1979.

Second of all, Iran's vice president is a woman. So do some research instead of just posting lies just like the rest of your repbulican friends.

And lastly, thanks for educating the world. They just turn around and use it to attack you with that education.

I agree that the U.S. and Iran is drawing closer and closer to war, but I do not think it inevitable. It seemed inevitable we'd war with the U.S.S.R., but that turned out not to be the case (relatively small proxy wars notwithstanding).

Both GT and Wally make valid points. GT's truth: A sovereign nation has the right to do what they want, even pursue nuclear weapons. Wally's truth: Iran signed the non-proliferation agreement binding them from pursuing nukes.

Combining those two, Iran, a sovereign nation, agreed to give up their right to pursue nukes. Since they appear to be reneging on their agreement, other nations have the right to enforce the non-proliferation agreement Iran signed.

GT, this has nothing to do with sovereignty and everything to do with a nation abiding by their agreements.

OTOH, recent election results in Iran show that Iran is, indeed, a democracy, as it looks like they may vote out Ahmedinejad for being reckless. While their other elected choice may be just as hostile to U.S. interests, there is no denying that there is a thriving democracy at work in the Mulim middle-East. Hopefully the old adage "Democracies don't go to war with other democracies" will turn out to be true.

Yes GT, the revolution was started by the people, and now they get to deal with the Frankenstein they unleashed, which is distinctly undemocratic no matter how you try to spin it. Israel isnt a democracy? Which history books do you read?

You must have a reading comprehension problem, perhaps stemming from your rising anger and juvenile name-calling; I said women cannot be PRESIDENT in Iran. PRESIDENT.

And lastly, thanks for educating the world. They just turn around and use it to attack you with that education. LOL!

If that were true, then Iraq under Hussein was a democracy, even though there was no one running against the man and people were forced to vote.

Iran is only a democracy in as far as the mullahs allow it to be; arbitrarily denying access to thousands of nominees and having a self-elected council invalidating parliamentary decisions is proof of that. The colloquial understanding of a democracy is certainly not met by such a system.

"HOW are you going to attack Iran. Please answer that question. Are you going to invade and occupy the country? Are you just going to have an air campaign and hope to bomb them into submission?"

That sounds like a great idea to me GT- Bomb the coasts, keep the shipping lanes open, sink the tiny navy, destroy the air force, bomb the nuke facilities, and destroy the Iranian infrastructure. Air power and naval bombardment can do this in a few days. Invasion is not really necessary to teach you guys a lesson and you know it.

"Truth is that Iran has the right to nuclear weapons and nuclear technology. You can't deny that fact"

Umm no. If this were the case then why is the United nations getting involved? Is Iran a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Last I checked it was. Besides, I though Iran was getting nuclear technology for energy use? Guess you won't even deny that anymore. Ths is the wrong place for a pro-Iranian stance, go check out Dailykos, you'd love it.

GT, can a non-muslim be president of Iran?

Can the guardian council veto candidates who they deem unnacceptable, as they did in 1997 when only four candidates out of 238 were approved?

Are those tenets indicative of a true democracy?

The President must defeat Islamic Terror. by all means.Take the gloves off and let the Dems try to to impeach.

Though I suppose we could keep trying, it worked so well with the North Koreans, eh?

Bacon, you've got that Canadian accent down pretty good, heh, heh.

- HOW are you going to attack Iran. Please answer that question. Are you going to invade and occupy the country? Are you just going to have an air campaign and hope to bomb them into submission? What is your "war plan" for Iran.

GT, that's probably not something that's going to be shared ahead of time with the general public, and most certainly not with a smarmy little Iranian foreign exchange students. But thanks for asking. If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd wager that our military, and the Air Force and Navy in particular have some new weapons that they're just itching to try.

Ummmmm...it'll feel good to try em too!

I see Sambo the Suicide Bomber is back spewing his anti-America garb with absolutely nothing to back it up. What time is it in Tehran anyway?

Notice how he can't compose himself and his tone escalates to the bitter with a dash of total condemnation?

Remember those roman candles...kook!

With Iran, I must believe that we should nuke em till they glow and shoot em in the dark!

That's a joke for Spook, Bongos and Bama.

Well Navy, i'll give you that... or rather wait until they do something asinine. After all like i have said many many times before- we may disagree about everything. Still it's our luxury, earned freedom and sole privilege as Americans to do so.

As for nut jobs trying to interject their political or military might into our affairs, well....thay have a few other things coming :-)

Wouldnt diplomacy be a better route to pursue, rather than military action?

Posted by: Bacon-I Will Miss Thee at January 14, 2007 02:43 PM

It might be a foreign concept and a novel approach for y'all, but you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it.

Posted by: Canadian Observer at January 14, 2007 02:53 PM

It might be said that we have been engaged in a diplomatic effort to avoid war with Iran since 1979. if you want to try a novel approach CO - why not try pulling your head out of the sand?

If you can stop Iran, go ahead and try it.

Posted by: GTgraduate at January 14, 2007 03:29 PM

Y'know, that sounds alot like what one of your neighbors said on a similar subject. I cant remember his name, but his initials were S. H..Maybe it was short for Spider Hole?

GT, I have to warn you, do not give that kind of a dare to the US - we can do it. And if the nukes are viable in Iran, we may do it with surgical nuclear strikes on selected military sites. Unlike the terrorist groups do in other areas bombing civilians deliberiately. Who would be considered more civilized?

The American Military has NO way of defeating Iran. Its one thing to have airstrikes against the whole country, but a complete different thing to OCCUPY a country. for that, you need millions of men, that is something the Americans don't have. Furthermore, like i said before, its easy for you to criticize Iran's governmental system and turn a blind eye toward your allies in the Middle East that are tyrannies in power. But like i said, because they are your lapdogs, you just ignore their dictatorial tendencies.

For people on here to suggest that Attacking Iran will be just like Iraq is just plain dumb. Iraq was a US puppet for 20 years until he attacked kuwait. Even after Kuwait, he was a broken man in a broken country with no military power. Iran is NOT like Iraq, if it was, the US would have already attacked its nuclear installations.

Bottom line, this war if it happens, will be the end of US dominance in the world. People here are simply not willing to figh a long war as was evident in Vietnam and to some extent in Iraq.

Who says we need to occupy Iran, its much easier to simply destroy its military capacity and then watch as the country withers on the vine. For a supposed Iranian, you dont seem to know very much about your own country.

Irans exports a huge amount of oil, yet it has to import most of its gasoline due to an almost nonexistent refining capacity. Tanks, aircraft and cars cant run on crude, they need refined petroleum; cut off the gas and the society will start to break down. All those Iranian people who understand that the mullahs need to go are going to get awfully noisy as their cars run dry and food prices skyrocket....and then the game is up.

See those two carrier battle groups at the mouth of the Persian Gulf? There are ten more just like it if we need them, and even those two are more than enough to incapacitate Iranian military air power.

See that little speck of land in the middle of the Indian Ocean? That is Diego Garcia, currently home to a few wings of Lancers and Buffs, planes which will do the work of destroying Irans military bases and depots once the enemy airpower has been removed.

We dont need to occupy Iran, just destroy its ability to make war, then the oppressed Iranian people will finally make amends with the 7th century savages who proclaim themselves as rulers.

Cheers!

Or we could just leave the job to the Israelis.

BTW, you never did answer my earlier questions: can a non-muslim be president of Iran? What about a woman? A homosexual?

Who appoints the members of the Guardian Council? Why is it that those twelve men have the power to veto any candidate for president, or that they can nullify any legislation passed by the parliament?

Why is apostasy punishable by death, why cant non-muslims engage in public displays of faith? Why are all public school students required to study islam?

And on and on and on and on and on.

Iran is free huh? BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You just keep criticising the pot, kettle, at least the other middle-east countries dont try to cloak their tyranny with a democratic veneer.

Sure bacon, you can just use your airpower huh?? Just like you thought you could in Vietnam and Afghanistan. We saw what your airpower did to those countries.

Second of all, Iran does import refined fuel. The analysis you make however is faulty. Who ever said that iran will fight back with its traditional military. Who said that iran is even interested in fighting a fair war with the United States. Those soldiers in Iraq will become hostages of Iran. Don't even think that one of those soldiers will come out of that country alive if you were to attack Iran. You see, Iran doesn't need or want to fight the US air force, or Navy. All they have to do is just cause hell in Iraq. And for that, you don't need oil. Last I checked, those insurgents got gas at stations just like the rest of the civilians in Iraq. When you can't identify your enemy, you can't fight him.

you can have all the airbases and airpower you want. Bottom line is, if you attack Iran, you will have to KILL 70 million people to put an end to the war. Unlike what you believe, a majority of the Iranian people DO support the regime. In case of an attack, it is idiotic to believe that they would support the attackers and form a government who becomes a lapdog of the US. Just like your vice president said that you would be greeted as liberators in Iraq, you think that about iran. Fact is however, this war will cost you the empire you always wanted but never had.

GT:
Thanks for proving what we all knew, Iranians are people who only want to use thuggish terrorism to get what they want. And once they have a nuke, they'll attempt to bully the region into submission AND THEN go ahead and try to destroy Israel. We already know that your president wants to be an instrument of the apocalypse.

He'll be stopped one way or another... and I'd like to see your lame ass deported. If you hate America so much, we should show you the door.

Ah I see, Iranian soldiers must be invisible. You see, they have to actually GET to Iraq to cause trouble, and that little dilemma will become much more painful than it is now were open war to break out. And its not as if our soldiers in Iraq are going to stand still and take it.

The gas will run out and the populace will start to get antsy, the mullahs will bark empty platitudes about 'The Great Satan' and 'Jihad' and things will get worse. Its going to get quite difficult to foment trouble in Iraq while your own country is falling to pieces.

Then word will come down from on high, "get rid of the mullahs, we dont have a quarrel with the Iranian people, just the thugs running the government."

Game over. Its time to rid the world of a government run by 7th century thugs who support and supply most of the worlds terrorism.

Ready to answer my questions yet? Why does the Iranian president have to be a muslim?

Like the United States does not bully the rest of the world with its military superiority....hahaha..dont be a hypocrit.

second of all. Can a homosexual be United States president, can a black person be president, a woman. Granted they can run here, but they can't win. So the fact that they cannot run in iran, does not have any bearing on the discussion at hand. Don't change the subject.

kids in school don't have to study islam period. don't lie. Iran has a population of christians and jews. They live there in peace and are not bothered by the government.

Third of all, why should iran fight in the same manner as the US fights against Iran. To each his own. If they can't challenge the US militarily, they will just resort to other tactics. In the end however, you cannot subue a nation of 70 million with your planes and ships. Its that simple.

The talk about the apocalypse is BS and you know it. Thats just spread by the western media to scare people. just like your president is religious ours is too. that does not mean that he wants to end the world. that is preposterous.

Iran is run by islamic law. Just like in the US, people don't want to teach evolution in schools, believe in god, and don't condone adultery Iran doesn't either. I believe that is not part of the discussion. that tactic is the typical way you republicans change the topic and act like you have the moral high ground. Stick to the argument and discuss what is at hand. Don't change topics and act like you know what your talking about.

look forward to your response.

GT - we only need to bomb the oil terminals. Two days, their money stops.

Is this idiot, GT, serious?

Is he seriously trying to say that there isn't an official religion in Iran and that those who don't practice that religion aren't persecuted if they were to publicly say they were not-islamic.

Further, where in the US Constitution does it say a black person, a woman, or a gay person are barred from running. However, the Iranian constitution does ban women from running for President, and you stone or hang gay people.

It's hilarious that you are soooo blinded by your love of a man who denies the holocaust and wants nothing more than to destroy western civilization; that you'd spout the pure sh*t you've typed here today.

Further to that end, you'd actually advocate terrorism and deaths of innocent people of many religions and races just so Iran can have a nuclear bomb in order to make it feel big.

Man, who knew a nation could have penis envy?

Iran has an official religion...so what. People that are not Muslims do NOT get persecuted in Iran you idiot.

Furthermore, the US constitution never condoned slavery, but it was prevalent for 200 years in this country.

STICK to the argument at hand. The argument was about how the United States dreams about regime change in Iran.

you are blinded by your love for a country who has committed more crimes against humanity than any other in the history of man. You are also blinded by your love for a man who is waging war against Islam and muslim nations. fact is that every argument has many different ways to view it. You think your way is right, is think mine is right. The time for US dominance in the Middle East is slowly coming to an end. and the fact still remains, you have lost or withdrawn from EVERY military encounter you have had since 1945. You will try and fail again in Iran.

Sorry GT, but you are slowly being garotted by the facts, facts which you cannot deny.

-In 2003, the U.N. General Assembly passed Resolution 58/195 on the human rights situation in the country; it expressed serious concern about the continued discrimination against religious minorities by the Government. In 2004, the U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution condemning the human rights situation in Iran. In March 2006 the U.N. General Assembly adopted Resolution 60/171 expressing serious concern about the continued discrimination and human rights violations against religious minorities by the Government. Also in March 2006, the Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief issued a statement of concern about the treatment of the Baha'i community in the country. The Special Rapporteur's statement claimed that Supreme Leader Khamene'i has instructed security officials to identify and compile information on Baha'is.

-The Iranian constitution declares the "official religion of Iran is Islam and the doctrine followed is that of Ja'fari (Twelver) Shi'ism." All laws and regulations must be consistent with the official interpretation of the Shari'a (Islamic law).

-Public school kids must study islam.

-By law and practice, religious minorities are not allowed to be elected to a representative body or to hold senior government or military positions, with the exception that 5 of a total 270 seats in the majlis are reserved for religious minorities.

-Apostasy, specifically conversion from Islam, may be punishable by death.

-The legal system discriminates against religious minorities. In 2004 the Expediency Council approved appending a note to Article 297 of the 1991 Islamic Punishments Act, authorizing collection of equal "blood money" (diyeh) for the death of Muslims and non-Muslims. All women and Baha'i men were excluded from the equalization provisions of the bill. According to law, Baha'i blood is considered Mobah, meaning it can be spilled with impunity.

-The Ministry of Justice report also stated that Baha'is must be excluded or expelled from universities, either in the admission process or during the course of their studies, once their religious affiliation becomes known.
Baha'is may not teach or practice their faith or maintain links with co-religionists abroad.

These are just a few examples easily found and documented by dozens of reputable sources. Dont dodge your initial statement that, unlike other ME nations, Iran is supposedly free. Its not.

The world doesnt have a problem with the Iranian people, we have a problem with the savages who control its government. When Iran's president stands up and declares that another sovereign nation must be "wiped off the map", we are going to be rightly concerned.

"can have all the airbases and airpower you want. Bottom line is, if you attack Iran, you will have to KILL 70 million people"

Only 70 million...well then we'll just have to kill all 70 million then won't we Sambo.

Hey what time is it in Tehran...lame ass terrorist?

All, this guy has never been serious except for his pro-terrorist rhetoric.

You can try to have a rational dialogue until you're blue in the face and he'll continue his terrorist diatribes with bitter anger for America and what we stand for.....his death!

and the fact still remains, you have lost or withdrawn from EVERY military encounter you have had since 1945. You will try and fail again in Iran.

Ill ask again....which history books are you reading, the same ones that indoctrinate North Korean children about the Great Leader inventing the wheel and being the first man on the moon? Brush up a bit before you come here, dealing with hysterical amateurs is getting old.

If this kook isn't the most twisted freak on the plant, next to Hockmadumbojob, then he's close, especially when he spews this kind of garb.

"you are blinded by your love for a country who has committed more crimes against humanity than any other in the history of man."

If Iran isn't careful, we'll commit 70 million more...lame terrorist!

Yeah navy, Ive come to the conclusion that GT is about as Iranian as my yellow lab.

Ill go with what another poster said, GT is just some youth, playing at activism and trying to appear enlightened by carring a copy of "Das Kapital" around campus. Not that he understands the concepts contained within the book, he just believes it makes him look 'revolutionary'.

I feel like re-upping just to open a can. GT- are you that stupid?

Do you realize what air-domminance is? Do you realize how simple it is to strike off the coast of anywhere at any time in a day or two's notice? do you realize what kind of demorilazation will occurr after all the survivors get the dirt and blood off their shirts?

Air and naval strikes are pretty much un-defensible. The army wouldn't really have to do much. No point in jumping into a country of rubble.

But all this talk and paper is BS. Let's get it on!
---

Maybe idon't need to re-up after all. Just sit back and watch CNN (reality tv). OK here come the boos for the CNN plug.

Dont worry so much bill, you only have two years to wait and perhaps all the power will belong to your party. Then we wont have to study wo no mo. All will be happiness and light, flowers and bunnies, nectar and love, sugar and...well you get my drift.

Anyone with a brain knows that dialogue is always the answer, even if it means trying to talk to a psychotic suffering from a severe case of 'god-complex' and openly desiring the destruction of a neighboring nation. Words, not war!

Now, where did I leave my copy of "Peace In Our Time", written by some guy named Chamberlain.

Ed Note: Leftwing rant edited for brevity:

Everyone who isn't leftist, is Satan.

Where did airpower alone win a war for you stensin????

navydad (Ed. Note: homophobic slur from this highly educated person deleted - we wouldn't want him looking like some sort of knuckle-dragging redneck, now would we?), nice of you to advocate crimes against humanity...its funny because you don't even realize what your saying. People like you are footnotes in history as supporting genocide because it was done in the "name of good". I look forward to your (Ed. Note: life of blessedness in the life of the world to come because, as a liberal/left person, I would never, ever wish anyone ill).

Bacon, you have no idea what your talking about.....for the last time, THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAN WAS BROUGHT IN BY THE PEOPLE..what part of that don't you understand. Out of the 70 million people in Iran, only a small minority like the MEK and other groups are against the government. I don't understand why you keep on bringing up the people's disdain against the regime when they are a minority. Since when did a minority rule a government and a country.

People in this country are as divided as they have ever been. It is absurd to say that 45 percent of the people in this country want "regime change" at the white house. They simply lost an election. Iran is no different. The MAJORITY of the people support the regime and a minority do not. Stop claiming that this regime has been imposed on Iran when in reality it was brought in by the people.

For your information navy dad. I am a 25 year old graduate from Georgia Tech with a BS and a JD from NYU. Im pretty sure your education is no higher than a GED. Don't patronize me idiot.

I am surprised how restrained the Bushites et al are in their responses to GT(Great Terrorist?).
I expected much more verbal violence and seething hate.
You guys never even resorted to ethnic slurs, I guess Noonan's rules have you cowed.

Actually Canuck:
Most of the guys on here would rather shoot fire and rage in your direction with the posts you make here. Are you defending GT's assertions are nearly as wrong as his "facts"?

GT:
Are you serious? Did you fabricate the JD from NYU? What was the BS at Georgia Tech in? Or are you just trying to sound like you're a student of American history?

If you have a JD, Canuckguy is a lifetime member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Canuckguy: I was trying to be humorous with my last post... I wasn't being serious... rereading it, it doesn't show as being flippantly funny.

GT, ever considered taking a course in anger management? After that perhaps a few courses in history and current events, or even geopolitics.

The second phase of the downfall of the shah, commonly referred to as the Islamic Revolution, saw Khomeini purging the disparate groups that might challenge the new islamic theocracy that desired all the power of government, including those that represented true democracy.

Now, 25 years after the Iranians decided they wanted something better than the shah, they have something which is almost as bad. Twenty five years of the same corruption, the same theocratic despotism, the same oppression and when they try to change it, the religious Guardian Council invalidates anyone who might want true democracy and representation.

Examples:

-Iran's economy has not prospered. Dependence on petroleum exports is still overwhelming.
-Per capita income, which fluctuates with the price of oil, has fallen to as low as 1/4 of what it was during the Shah's era.
-Unemployment among Iran's population of young has steadily risen as job creation has failed to keep up, a high level of corruption being blamed in part.

Those facts are just for general knowledge, of course. Come on GT, which junior college are you attending?

I am surprised how restrained the Bushites et al are in their responses to GT(Great Terrorist?).
I expected much more verbal violence and seething hate.

Well of course youre surprised, liberals usually condescend to everyone who doesnt fully embrace political correctness at any cost.

But kudos to you for deigning to speak to us lowly neocons, it must take quite an effort to crawl off that high-horse and I, for one, appreciate the effort.

GT - What did you shoot at the range? Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman? Did you know that in the 80's we sank half of Iran's Navy? Have you ever seen an A6 (well, now an A/F18) drop a full load of 500 pound bombs?

"Well educated" Liberals with no military experience, not even "book learning" have little to add to these discussions. At least tell me you studied military history or military technology at GT?

Me - I'm college educated (TCU and North Texas) AND a former Marine. I've also lived overseas in Germany working for a private company. And, I have visited many countries and stayed for extended visits in several. I only have Antarctica left to have visited all seven continents - but my wife keeps killing a visit there when I suggest it as a vacation destination.

One of the problems we have identified in this blog is the extreme ignorance of military topics by most of the liberal posters. Not all, but most have no clue of how thing work or of even recent history. It gets frustrating reading posts from people who may be sincere, but come across as clueless. It would be easier to talk us into your point of view if we thought we knew what you were talking about. That’s not necessarily directed at you - just posters in general. With the very strong trend for conservatives to join the military and for liberals to avoid it (especially among the officer corps), this will get worse. Your liberal friends need to take a page from the Republican book of personal responsibility and learn to serve someone besides yourselves.

Ever read Starship Troopers? Not watch the crappy movie they made, but actually read the book? I take PERSONAL responsibility for the safety of the nation. A good paraphrase. Marines take PERSONAL responsibility. Ankle biting blog posters do not.

It amazes me how ready you guys are for war. Here are a few things to consider:

-First off, under the NPT, by giving up Nuclear Weapons, Iran is entitled to Nuclear Energy. At one time the United States even agreed with Iran having Nuclear Energy, being that the U.S. was building nuclear reactors there in the 1970's, under the puppet government of the Shah. You remember the Shah, the U.S. and Briton installed him in the 1950's by overthrowing a democratically elected president.

-Secondly, I have seen no PROOF that Iran is developing Nuclear Weapons. In absence of this PROOF, they are permitted under the NPT to develop a Civilian Nuclear Ability. If it is PROVEN that they are pursing Nuclear Weapons, then that changes the debate. I do not support Iran, or any other country (including the present nuclear powers), having Nuclear Weapons.

Thirdly, it is up to the U.S. to prove that Iran is pursing Nuclear Weapons. The burden of proof does not fall on Iran. That is the equivalent of a district attorney accusing you of murder and the judge telling you to prove your innocence. The burden of proof is the responsibility of the prosecutor.

Lastly, war with Iran will not be the cake walk some of you seem to think it would be. Air and Naval power cannot win the war. If they could, then we would be celebrating the military genius of Bush, as well as the peaceful democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was starved to death by sanctions for a decade, Iran is a rich nation, which has been buying weapons from Russia and China. In addition, Russia and China are totally against this war. Believe it or not, that is of importance. (Ed. Note: Silly leftwing nonsense....errm....well, sillier than usual silly leftwing nonsense at the end of this comment deleted).

There are better options out there other than war!

Peace.

Bacon: "Anyone with a brain knows that dialogue is always the answer, even if it means trying to talk to a psychotic suffering from a severe case of 'god-complex' and openly desiring the destruction of a neighboring nation. Words, not war!"

What Bush won't listen????

Oh Silly Billy or is that Silly Jenn:
The only neighbor Bush wants to destroy is one leader in Venezuela...

IF you think that's ANYTHING like the 2nd (first in the mind of the Iranian President) Holocaust that the Iranian President and GT want to start.

It's sad how you'd rather stand in line against the president on EVERYTHING the president wants to do.

GT: "People in this country are as divided as they have ever been."

Just because we disagree untill the blood pours from ourr mouth does NOT mean we can't kick a little ass in the dessert.

It's not rocket science for us to bite our lip for a motnh to bitch slap some panzy munatics set on bringing down our nation.

Gee GT. did i ever occur to you what DEMOCRACY means? it is about the living government (U.S. in our case). It is about our freedom, our prosperity, our will to put our differences aside when and if necessary. And open up big ol' can of Whoopya when needed. Our democracy is something you probably do not grasp.

Too bad, you might have shared it with your homies. But i guess it never dawned on you to be smart rather than bold (sounding).

wally- not every thing.

I studied Electrical Engineering at GT. graduated in 2004. JD at NYU graduated in two years in 2006.

Iran's GDP is ranked around 93 in the World. That is the same as Turkey, and they are being considered for the EU. You act like iran is the only country in the world with high unemployment and corruption. Your Allies in India and Pakistan are 10 times more corrupt and worse economic shape than Iran when you look at GDP.

All of your facts and data don't change one thing. Iran will gain access to nuclear weapons and technology and there is nothing that the United States can do. Just like President Bush claimed that a nuclear north korea is unacceptable....until they performed a test. its that simple. The US is more bark than bite at this time.

you don't need military experience to have a knowledgeable opinion of military history. The United States has proven time and time again that it DOES not have the stomach to fight a long war with casualites. It was evident in Vietnam, Somalia, and now in Afghanistan and Iraq. I will make a prediction:

The united states will either withdraw in Iraq or act as if the Iraqi government can handle themselves and leave with the objective "completed" only to see Iraq become a failed state.

Great,

What happened in the 1950's is irrelevant - none of it can be used as justification for any action by Iran in 2007.

Iran's government is illegitimate - Americans holding that governments derive the just powers by the consent of the governed, Iran doesn't qualify as a Power which can legally issue a parking ticket, let alone build nuclear weapons.

We realise that the Iranian government has been starving its people of necessary commodities in order to pay for the imperial/messianic visions of the tiny clique of Iranian rulers, but that doesn't mean the military forces at Iran's disposal are worth more than target practice for an American military force.

Finally, no one is talking about invading and overthrowing the Iranian regime - no, we're just talking about crippling it...and since most of Iran's gasoline is imported, a naval and aerial campaign - with, perhaps, some selective special forces operations inside Iran - would get us what we want...a crippled Iran no longer able to pay for mischief.

I studied Electrical Engineering at GT. graduated in 2004. JD at NYU graduated in two years in 2006.

Iran's GDP is ranked around 93 in the World. That is the same as Turkey, and they are being considered for the EU. You act like iran is the only country in the world with high unemployment and corruption. Your Allies in India and Pakistan are 10 times more corrupt and worse economic shape than Iran when you look at GDP.

All of your facts and data don't change one thing. Iran will gain access to nuclear weapons and technology and there is nothing that the United States can do. Just like President Bush claimed that a nuclear north korea is unacceptable....until they performed a test. its that simple. The US is more bark than bite at this time.

you don't need military experience to have a knowledgeable opinion of military history. The United States has proven time and time again that it DOES not have the stomach to fight a long war with casualites. It was evident in Vietnam, Somalia, and now in Afghanistan and Iraq. I will make a prediction:

The united states will either withdraw in Iraq or act as if the Iraqi government can handle themselves and leave with the objective "completed" only to see Iraq become a failed state.

GT,

You might want to trade in your BS and JD for a class in plumbing, because the degrees don't seem to be doing you much good - the bitterness and anger you are consumed by at the age of 25 is a clear indicator that whatever psuedo-knowledge they shoved into your brain at NYU, manners and a sense of proportion weren't among them.

That aside, they also didn't shove in much knowledge of history, military affairs or even a cursory study of foreign affairs.

Iran's government is not reflective of the will of the people - the mullahs veto candidates who don't toe the Islamist line. Given this, the people of Iran don't have an actual choice, and thus no choice of government is made at all. Those few Iranians who do vote, merely ratify what the mullahs want. Given that there is no legitmate government of Iran, we are free to deal with it, or destroy it, as best suits our needs of the moment.

You also confuse "can" and "will" - the United States can, at this very moment, entirely destroy Iran, without resort to non-conventional weapons. We can do that, but we will not - because we are a merciful people who understand that we must, as far as possible, spare the people of Iran from suffering the adverse results of the mullahs actions.

Iran is, indeed, a much larger and potentially much more powerful nation than Iraq - but I'll point out that in 8 years of trying, this Iran was unable to make serious inroads into Iraq, even though Saddam could only rely upon one in five Iraqis to actually fight with any will to victory for his regime. Having weapons and knowing how to use them are two different things, and at this point in time, in the entire Arab/Moslem world, only two majority-Moslem nations know how to use weapons effectively: the American trained Iraqi and Afghan armies. Other than that, they are just armed mobs who would die by the tens of thousands if they ever came up against a western military force.

This isn't, before you get started, due to westerners being braver and smarter - for all we know, most Moslems are far braver and far smarter than most westerners...such things are irrelevant in modern war, however, where a premium is on unit cohesion, commanders who are loyal to civilian overseers and troops who know their job inside and out. If the mullahs ever send their ragged conscripts against us, then after the war we should prosecute the mullahs not for war crimes, but for criminally negligent homicide.

GT - "All of your facts and data don't change one thing." ????? Yah, facts and data – who needs em.

You argue they WILL have nuclear technology and weapons at the same time your allies here argue they won't, or that we must "prove" it. It is very hard to argue against a group with collective schizophrenia.

Whatever - I consider most of you (and yes GT this does now include you) highly ignorant. How could we win a war with the Air Force and Navy... well consider this: we never invaded Japan. The Navy choked them off from the world, and the Air Force (Corps) bombed them flat. We landed on two, count them two Japanese Islands - one of those little more than a rock. And neither of them was part of traditional Japan. We could cut off their oil exports (and revenue), use deep bunker busting bombs (they come in conventional AND nuclear flavors) to destroy their nuclear program, and bomb their Army into stains in the desert. Maybe we can catch some of the traitorous American press in the melee.

Should we? I’m still undecided. But could we, oh yes. Definitely.

I heard the Iranians in the (wink-wink) counsulate under construction shit their pants when their were awakened in the early am by our troops.

Has anybody else heard this?

-Joe

Ya know, if'n I was an Iranaian dudesicle, one thing I would absolutely not do is really piss off G.W.

This guy, if nothing else, will turn your country into a self lighting, glass bottom parking lot, allah be praised.

God willing, there will be enough silicon there for Intel to make chips for billions of years without melting anymore sand.

-Joe

Finally, no one is talking about invading and overthrowing the Iranian regime - no, we're just talking about crippling it...and since most of Iran's gasoline is imported, a naval and aerial campaign - with, perhaps, some selective special forces operations inside Iran - would get us what we want...a crippled Iran no longer able to pay for mischief.

Posted by: Mark Noonan at January 15, 2007 12:55 AM

So, Mark, after you 'cripple' Iran, where do you go from there?

So Sambo made the mistake of revealing his ID. I see.

Hey Sambo

I have one and only one year of college (Ventura JC) You see, not everyone needs to go to college to be successful, although I would have preferred to go back, but since I was so busy being succesfull I didn't have time.

I was a pro sailor with five national championships and was recruited for the America's cup in 74'. I had the highest mechanical apptitude in my high school and was recruited by the DOE in 1978 where I oversaw (without a degree pea..brain) the manufacturing of every single nuclear triggering containment vessel that the US made from 78-92. I EARNED an engineering title in 82' (the only non-degreed engineer at the Rocky Flats Plant in that era) and went on to start my own business where I've invented 51 total products with five patents and presently am a sole source supplier for Toyota, Land Rover, Jaguar, AM General (you know who they are don't you? They're the ones that make the H1 Hummer that kills your buds) Lexus, VW Chrysler and Lotus.

I've designed, engineered and built my own three- event tournament waterski lake, three of my own homes and presently have two more products that will launch this year.

Oh, did I forget to say that I engineered Depleted Uranium Sabots that made your buddies tanks look like roman candles in both wars? Hmmm...without a degree!

And last but not least, I performed my first Young's Modulus at age 24...without a degree...pea brain.

So little terrorist, what does your resume have on it besides "terrorist supporter"?

Is this enough, or would you like more...lame ass?

So, I'm curious Sambo, what have you done? You accuse everyone here of being Bush luvin idiots...so what have you done in your whole 22 years besides learn to wipe your ars with your hand instead of tp?

This punk has absolutely no freakin clue of our military might..does he?

Out of curiosity... many people know lawyers... but one thing I've NEVER heard of, is someone going through law school in TWO years. It's virtually impossible in every program I've ever looked at. Granted the third year is pretty light, but you have to take some classes the first year and some the second year... they're called pre-req's.

Further, who studies electrical engineering as an undergraduate and then goes to law school?

Something smells funny of this so called Iranian intellectual. _________________________________________________

The Iranian people don't deserve the leaders they have. The Iranian people are better than their leaders (with the exception of the puke who's posted here). And many of the youth in Iran would also like to see their theocracy replaced by true democracy. I think the rest of the world who views democracy as the only way to govern should assist in any way they can.

What's funny Waw is that Sambo AKA GTgrad changes his screen name to hide his identity. Anyone that is as emotionally unstable as he is, couldn't possibly make it through law school or electrical engineering. I think we need to see proof..don't you?

Ooopps..I just checked with GT, I was told they don't accept terrorists. This means he's telling fibs again.

Woowww...I just checked with NYU too and they said the same thing. Now we know he's full-o-bs!

Waw,

Harry Reicher at NYU is a friend of our family and I think I'll see if there is a way to verify if anyone has completed the 88 units or so in two years. Chances are, this guy is a fraud and we'll find out shortly.

Well NYU may actually accept terrorists, but only at the law school... so they can work for the ACLU. j/k. Not even NYU.

I almost went to NYU Gallatin for grad school. There are days I wish I had. New York City is a great place to live, for a finite amount of time.

CO says "So, Mark, after you 'cripple' Iran, where do you go from there? "

Well CO, that would be the starting point for negotiations. They ignored the Europeans and Chona and Russia aren't putting any pressure on them. Thats what YOU want right? Negotiations? So, since they won't negotiate, some military force might help get them in the right frame of mind.

Now go eat some blubber. And Canadian Bacon is NOT bacon.

Wow, navydad, I am impressed. (not being facetious)

Now to address some slurs tossed in my direction.
First, I am against fundamentalism in any form and I recognize that radical Islam is currently the biggist immediate danger to the world.
Secondly: The part you blockheads get your knickers in a knot about is that you hate being told that the Bush administration is an incompentent mess.
Thirdly: Not everything liberals or lefties stand for is bad and evil just like not everything you blockheads stand for is stupid and evil.
Fourthly: I don't like GT's political stance, he is the type of guy who would murder his sister to avenge some slight to his family's honour. Guys like GT don't deserve to be in the west, he should be sent packing back to his tent and camel.(there, I threw in an ethnic slur, it could have been worse, Noonan, please don't edit)
--Looking at the big picture, we are not that far apart on some topics.

One last thought, just a reminder, don't forget that Bush is at least one of the worse presidents you ever had. I realize you blockheads know this in the deepest recesses of the neanderthal part of your brain but you just cannot admit the obvious to yourselves.

Hey Canuck:
Name a Canadian Prime Minister anyone outside of Canada who is also under 25 may have actually known.

That will tell you the status of your leaders to the people of the world, and quite possibly the place people put on Canada's contribution to the world stage.

Here's what's great, you're entitled to your opinion, but you aren't being any more objective than the people you accuse of not being objective in their approval of Bush.

And it doesn't help your point of view when you clearly are unwilling to look at anything without your hippie liberal goggles on.

Ohhh...you crazy Canucks!!
At least we agree that this GT Suicide Bomber is a freak...that's a start.

Are you speaking about fundamentalism as comparative religion or in the looser sense?
Since you're a crazy Canuck, I won't assume the latter, however, to a certain degree, you're as guilty as a fundamentalist by your denunciation thereof. That being just as rigid as the fundamentalist...agreed? So, what is right and what is wrong is only in the eye of the beholder.

But when the fundamentalist whack jobs start to blow people up with suicide bombs, IED's etc., in the name of Allah, that's not even close to the comparative sense...that's just freaking crazy.

As you can detect in GT's tone...he'd kill his own mother for a new copy of the large print Koran.

On your last note, I believe history will prove that although GW wasn't the most elequent speaker we've ever had, he will be remembered as the President with the most courage and forethought in countering to WOT. In fact, if this new measure that we're taking works, I guarantee it.

I'm sorry Sambo, I forgot to respond to this post.
I've got shoes older than you and a 100 times more life experiences, so believe me, I'm not patronizing at all....it's all fact little terrorist...all fact!

The MiniMe Terrorist wrote:
"For your information navy dad. I am a 25 year old graduate from Georgia Tech with a BS and a JD from NYU. Im pretty sure your education is no higher than a GED. Don't patronize me idiot."

Hey Canuck:
Name a Canadian Prime Minister anyone outside of Canada who is also under 25 may have actually known

Posted by: wawilliyo at January 15, 2007 05:22 PM

You could ask anyone who lives outside of the U.S., under the age of 25, to name a Canadian Prime Minister and you would probably get an answer, but if you ask the same question within the U.S., probably not. More than likely you would just get a blank stare.

Unless it is celebrity gossip, sports, or the like, most young Americans lack the knowledge of countries other than their own and for that matter, even their own. I'll amend that to say that it is not only the American youth, but the general population as well.

CO:
I figured you better than that... you and I both know I'm right about my question. It's equally as much an indictment about people my age not caring just as much as it is about Canada not having a huge international profile.

Ya, they may give you a name, but they'd probably say Tony Blair or a former British Prime Minister.

Since you seem such a cosmopolitian sort of person, call up a friend in Manchester, England and have them ask some kid just out of school for the day?

Or go to Nice in France and ask that question.

The results would be the same as if you went to Plano West Senior High School here in Dallas.

Stop trying to give your country some credit.

P.S.
I asked a friend of mine who has received a Masters in Philosophy/Ethics, and I'd consider him pretty smart. He couldn't name the current Canadian Prime Minister, nor could he name any other Prime Minister. And he's a crazy liberal like you.

CO - I think you'll find that many many Americans are far better educated and world travelled than you or most Europeans. I've stated MY history before.

OK, Just for the record. BA (Magna Cum Laude)
Marines. 40 or so states. Canada, Argentina, England, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Phillipines, Hong Kong (before absorption), Singapore, Australia, Kenya. Before the Shaw was gone, I went to school with Iranians. After the shaw, I saw Iranian military aircraft playing games with us off their coast. Not good games.

I can get by in German, and order food and do the basics in Spanish. I don't think I'm all that unusual. My wife is fluent in English and German. Her sister is a Navy Warrant Officer and both of HER kids are in the military. Her son is in Iraq, her daughter just got back - and within a week volunteered to go back. My brother was a Marine. he's good in Spanish and has been to Japan and Korea. Many of his good friends died in Beruit. The list of people I know goes on and on. Many of my neighbors have been in Africa hunting Al Queada, or in Afghanistan, or Iraq. I hear raw unfiltered stories from them.

With like 13% of officers saying they are liberal, well I guess not as many liberals hear the truth. Instead they listen to the press. The press isn't even with the troops anymore - they make a lot of their "news" up over cocktails (I guess).

In fact, if we're all so stupid.... how is it we dominate the world?

Wawilli asked:"Hey Canuck: Name a Canadian Prime Minister anyone outside of Canada who is also under 25 may have actually known"

CO answered that nicely. However I don't see the revelance of the question. I never claimed Canada was a big player on the world scene but at least we are not the most hated(no need to say more about who is the most hated).

Kudos Kahn on an incredible journey!!

I'm sure that if most of us older folk here at B4B sat down and really put our minds to it, we could come up with some pretty amazing stories about life...in general that is, and the unplanned adventures would be the icing.

These young pups...with all do respect, except for Sambo and Bill, have no idea what life is all about and if I had to do it all over, other than family stuff, I would have been more supportive of my party and donated more time to see that the youth in this country understood how our government operates (I'm still learning)and the pros and cons of supporting our military and CinC during war time...no matter who that CinC is.

Canuckguy

Is how you gauge your country's success on this planet by whether or not you're hated? If so, you'll be waiting a hell of a long time because a good portion of the planet hates all westerner's guuuuutttttssssss and I'm talking about those radical Islamic fascists that are killing our guys every week and if they had their chance, they kill every crazy canuck on the planet along with every Christian, Jew, Democrat and Republican.
If you honestly think that they discrininate who they want to kill, you're simply fooling yourself..but you're not fooling them.

So tell me, what barometer do you use? I'd really like to hear how you gauge this.

Navydad:
--I am now going to eat part of my statement - "but at least we are not the most hated(no need to say more about who is the most hated)"

CO,

Its been partially answered, but I'll expand:

War is a means of obtaining a political result which cannot be obtained via normal political means. In Iran, we've got a government entirely irreconcilable with civilization. What we want in Iran is a government which can be reconciled with the world. By crippling Iran's ability to foment trouble, we give a window of opportunity to the non-insane elements of the Iranian government to take over and change Iranian policy.

This may or may not work - the lunatics may stay firmly in charge. In such a case, we've at least set them back by some years and that would give us breathing room to finish up in Iraq and Afghanistan so that by the time we have to decide whether or not to cripple Iran again, we'll have that country bracketed east and west by strong American allies.

The very worst thing we can possibly do at this point is nothing - this will only enhance the prestige of the lunatics and give them time to become more powerful, and thus both less amenable to American pressure, as well as much harder to confront in the military sphere.

CO

Do you remember when the US invaded Afghanistan and removed the Taliban?

Do you recall the incredible support that we Americans received from world leaders such as Pervez Musharraf, Tony Blair, John Howard, Koizumi Koizumi, Paul Martin and about ten or so others?

We went to Afghanistan on the premise that the Taliban harbored Al Qaeda and that Al Qaeda was responsible for 911...correct?

Didn't the Taliban commit acts against humanity?

How many Al Qaeda did we kill(no one knows)vs. Taliban and how many total casualties have we had...518..correct?

We have no idea how many Al Qaeda we've killed...correct? This is important so keep reading.

Haven't the Tailban and Al Qaeda tried to regroup a number of times and haven't we, or the UN had to go back and clean up hot spots of terrorist/Taliban or insurgents? Sound familiar?

Haven't we been in Afghanistan for for over five years? Sound familiar?

I'm really trying to find the delineation between the two wars and every time I try, they both appear to be one in the same, except separated by a border or two. Hmmm... a border. What's in a border?

So, when I came across this:

"Canada has steadily increased its involvement in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban regime in the fall of 2001."

It started to really sound like the hypocrisy of the 21st century since both wars are so similar...less the WMD's. But where are the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan? Know one really knows. Sound familiar?

What would have happened if we hadn't found any Al Qaeda in Afghanistan? Would Canada and the rest of the world have denounced the action or would they "stay the course" because they knew it was still a noble cause...even though there weren't Al Qaeda? Sound familiar?

Well, thus far, no one has been able to prove that Al Qaeda influenced the Taliban because they all ran before the invasion...sound familiar?

If we take a rational comparative look at the two wars, there are similarities that cannot be refuted, both pro and con and the only reason I believe that Canada and the rest of our allies in Enduring Freedom refused to advocate the invasion of Iraq, is purely due to what you had steated earlier...."you want to be liked". So far, there is no other comprehensive reason.

I see a major double standard here that I believe will come back to haunt the losers that took the popular low road rather than the nobel high road.