The libs have complained that we did not have enough troops in the first place, now they do not want additional troops. I wish they could take one position for once other than the one where they hope we lose. My feeling on the new plan is that this will be a victory as long as we take out the militias. Maqtada al sadr needs to die, and we need to have predator drones flyiong 24-7 on the Iranian border. For you libs that don't think we can take on the militias, when we had the green light 3 years ago we were killing up to 500 a day.

OK - so I just heard the official Democrat response. "Redploy home" starting now. So, cut and run.

Except for that bone he tossed about how things went sour in the last year (which gets short shrift here) it's the same speech he's made for the last five years. The "surge" in Baghdad didn't work last year and it won't now. It's not even a surge---it's just keeping troops over there longer and bringing more back who thought they were done---someone in my family circle is one of those who's being shipped over there. Bush is just hunkering down and trying run out the last 24 months of his presidency before he can dump this debacle on someone else.

The American people aren't buying it anymore of course. Don't take my word for it. Ask people who you deal with in the normal activities of your day. Bush is only popular in the hermetic world of talk radio, the right wing blogosphere, and megachurches led by closeted gay preachers.

I liked the speech and thought it was the best depiction of realities there that I have heard from the President. He properly put all of us on notice that the period of detachment ordinary Americans have had to this war is about to end.

I think the implicit message that Iraqis need to shape up or watch us leave was both necessary and proper. We are running the lion's share of the risk there and Americans have made it clear that this has to end. I also think the warnings on Iran are a precursor to expanding the war to include them, probably at the instigation of Israel. I think the lid is about to blow off the Middle East.

My view on this remains unchanged and that is that the Iraqi people are some of the worst people Americans have ever died for. Their willingness to blow up not just people who are there to give them freedome, but their own women and children, sickens me. If the President gets his "surge", the Iraquis better get with the program and fast because a political firestorm will erupt here if they don't.

Don't know about the surge, but a series of aircraft are taking off from Offutt Air Base in Nebraska. A large group took off together about a half hour after the President's speach. It shook the house.

I'm not in favor of war, but it wasn't started by the USA. We were dragged into this by the actions of radicals who had no qualms of killing inocent men, women, and children in our own country with our planes. IF we want to win we must take a stand and fight. I have never hear of someone winning a fight by running. If we leave with this war unwon, the terrorist will follow us home and bring the fight to us. They will see our withdrawal as cowardice......like it or not, that is how it will be seen in their eyes.

And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have. Our military commanders reviewed the new Iraqi plan to ensure that it addressed these mistakes. They report that it does.

Our son has told us that the Rules of Engagement (ROE's) for National Guardsmen are so tight that they cannot fire upon terrorists that are fleeing, even though they had just been fired upon. The only thing they can do is fire a flare over the offender's shoulder.

Support will come for this war when the ROE's are such that it allows our soldiers to do their job.

Support will come with success.

Isn't that pretty much the same speech he made on May 24, 2004?

Chester, my son happens to like the people he defends, as do all of the folks I know who are and/or who have been there.

There is a critical mass of Islamofascist creeps--a minority--who are making hell for everyone else.

Don't paint everyone there with such a broad brush.

I watched our President's speech. I left my comments over on my blog. I want our men and woman to come home. The Iraqi people have to step up. We can't do it for them no matter how many great plans are presented.

Hate to pat myself on the back, but I was dead on in my prediction of what he was going to say. Nothing surprised me.

The pundits afterwards (even on Fox!) all said the same thing: This is Bush's last chance. Iraq is his legacy. He blows this, he's toast. If Iraq still looks like it does now (or worse) in five months, his presidency, his stature (what there is of it) and his place in history will be destroyed.

Personally, I hope I'm wrong. I hope he's right. But I fear that I'm right and that George, once again, is deluded.

Guess we'll see.

Just as important, Democrats and RINO's need to stop their flag waving. They don't wave the American Flag, but the white flag of surrender.

BDG Marks and LTG Grange (both retired) said afterwards the military path is not the solution.
---

I do have a question- how many troops did/does McCain want to add? seems like 20,000 is truly a little light considering the intentions. Call it 16K to Baghdad and the rest to the north where Bush said al Qaeda is running about.

--

speaking of al Qaeda...who was that guy they were looking for- the one that commited 911? Been so long since the administration mentioned him. His name has slipped my mind!

As an Iranian living in the United States, I make this observation.

Whatever the reasons for invading Iraq, the US is now stuck in Iraq and cannot retreat without losing face, and more importantly, losing the war. You are there now, and have to deal with the consequenses. These are the facts:

- Troop increases WILL NOT subdue a nation that does not want to be subdued. Iraq is a nation of 25 million, and except for the Kurds in the north, NOBODY wants the Americans there period. You cannot win. Like Ghandi told the British Viceroy in India. NO amount of soldiers can impose peace on a country that does not want them there. This is the case of America.

- The only way the United States can save face is to bring in Iran to discuss restricting the Shia in the south and stop Al-Sadr from sending out his death squads. Period. When one gets desperate, and make no mistake, the US is desperate, all options of negotiation must be on the table. You don't ignore your enemies, you talk to them when you really want peace. it has been done many times in history, and can be done again. All you have to do, is sit down at the table without preconditions.

- If you think for one second that the US or Israel will attack Iran, you are grossly mistaken. Those precious soldiers will become Iranian hostages. MILLIONS of Iranian Basiji will cross to Iraq and will fight the US there in case of an air strike on Iran. Iran would simply walk into Kuwait with millions of basiji, and stop ALL oil in the Persian Gulf from crossing. Those of you that think huge aircraft carrier groups will protect the oil flow need only be reminded of USS cole, and how an unorganized attack on that ship crippled it. Now imagine going up against the guerrilla tactics of the founders of Hezbollah. Those aircraft carriers would be forced to stay in port and watch those tankers sink.

- Lastly, lets hear your counter arguments, Im ready for a good solid discussion.

Ummm Jenn/Bill:
OBL hasn't been heard from by his BFF in Afghanistan, the leader of the Taliban in FOUR years. He's probably dead or so far removed from control of Al Qaeda, what does it matter if his name is mentioned or not?

I just can't get over the gymnastics some of you like to get into. Bush is being too narrow on this, and then he's being too broad on this and we need more troops BUT the second he mentions it we need no more troops and we support the ones that are there and then we are against any troops anywhere no matter what happens.

We're in favor of tinpot dictators if they give things to people, no matter if they are killing innocents or not.

Why don't you just be honest... if Bush is behind it, you are in line against it.

I'll repeat it because it needs repeating... IF BUSH IS BEHIND IT, YOU'LL BE IN LINE AGAINST IT.

No matter what it was. You impune his motives on every issue, belittle every position he takes (even if it was the one you were advocating), and then bitch ad nauseum. Dick Durbin, you know, the guy who compared US soldiers to Nazis, said as much tonight. And you probably had a big giant foam finger on cheering him on.

Bill - thats because he's irrelevent now. His organization is largely destroyed and he's hiding in a village or a cave in what on the map is Pakistan. Teally though, it's a nationless region ruled by local warlords. Really, an area right out of Temple of Doom.

But you have yet to put forward YOUR plan Bill. I, or someone asks you to in string after string. But I guess you have poor reading comprehension or something. Or maybe - you don't have a plan? Just like Social Security, and the border, and hell everything. It's easy to criticize.

But you people are the majority. Time to step up. WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? I heard the Democratic response tonight - they said we shoud cut and run. Funny though, they have already said they won't follow up on it with anything but a symbolic non-binding vote. I thought you guys were going to change everything? Guess not.

I hope to God I am never in a life raft with any of you jerks.

Bill Stensin: That name you are searching for is Osama Bin Laden, or OBL. The fact that you are using that as an arrow in your bow communicates once again that your myopic view of such a complex situation invalidates your opinion and makes it less than worthy of review.

After speaking today with a special forces Marine, he told me what I already knew. Sure we don't get all the facts about what is going on there and I think we have all resolved to that fact. He said, "Even if the media were to report what is going on there....everything, the good and the bad, that is only a small fraction of what is going on that only those who are doing covert operations and those commanding them know the entire story. You may never hear about those." I rest in that and have solace that a war is being fought with the greatest of thought and our armchair comments are just that.

Wow GT... way to cheer on the terrorists... given it a lot of thought huh? You're probably one of those people who's phone calls should be listened to. J/K... I assume you're explaining these are BAD things.

Other posts you've made demonstrate however you wouldn't mind the United States losing in the war against those who wish to see the Western World destroyed.

I'll explain something to you... a tactical carrier group at sea is a lot different than a ship in port. If someone in a dingy tried to approach that group, they'd be dead in a minute... unless the Navy of Iran, as the terror sponsors they are have submarines. And the second an unprovoked attack happened, the Western World would be there... late, but they'd be there.

Further, what's the incentive of talking to Iran to help us. The only things Iran wants is exactly what we are unwilling to give them... nuclear weapons and control of Iraq... and to a lesser extent, at least some in this Country are willing to protect Israel and we know what Iran wants to do there.

Nothing says "saving face" like wasting time with leaders who's record in keeping their word is about as noteworthy as their record on human rights.

Lydia- yep.

GTgraduate – You started your post good. But then you went off track a little.

- Iran is bent on obtaining nuclear weapons – no one believes otherwise.
- Iran has stated they will destroy Israel
- Iran is trying to do that now through Hezbollah
- Iran is smuggling weapons and people into Iraq to sustain the killing.

And, "millions" of Iranians would attack us across the border? Well THAT kind of war we are really good at. The Navy and the Air Force aren't too busy right now. Heard of cluster bobs? Remember us slicing through the Iraqi Army? Remember us sinking half of the Iranian Navy in the 80's last time you tangled with us? Remember the Highway of Death outside Kuwait City? Do YOU want us trying out shock and awe tactics on Tehran and other Iranian cities?

You know – if the reason the Shia are killing is because they are getting money and weapons from Iran – stomping Iran might end that. It would be better if we just destroyed it and never even crossed the border. Hey – I wonder if that would shock Europe, Russia, and China into real sanctions? We should tell them “stop supporting Iran or we’ll declare war on them and then we’ll control the oil destined for Europe and China…”

"Lydia- yep." ?????

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN BILL? Beside cracking open that new bottle of Prozac I mean.

GTgraduate- I was basically with you on the 1st two paragraphs. On the 3rd- are you out of your GD mind? lik ei told someone once before. Here righty and i may disagree- probably on EVERYTHING. but 1 thing i assure you and ANYONE with any 2nd thoughts about our military power and prowess is severly mentally underfunded.

I know i sound like some big bad boy with a big gun. But do you even realize how devistating 1- count them 1 MLRS vehicle is to several hundred ground troops? In a mere 60 seconds? So let's add that to a few platoons or batteries, so on and so forth. Oh and go ask The Red Gaurd... go ask them about "STEEL RAIN" oh i forgot they go their f'n heads blown apart. BTW did i mention that it is kinda hard to reach the deep threat with a pea shooter?

man i rarely get excited, but you know the truth is calling on a fire storm is the very last thing i would ever do to the military of the U.S.

but- go ahead. it's not my ass.

GT, since it's obvious your love of Iran is immense, why do you live in the U.S.?

Just curious.

Wow - A Bill post I agree with.

WHATS YOUR PLAN FOR IRAQ BILL?

I heard crickets. Somewhere in the distance a dog barked. It was so quiet. Thats when I realized that Bill didn't have a plan! He didn't even have a clue!

Poor sad Bill. All he had was hatred and disjointed cut and pasted ideas from kook web sites. Poor guy. Not very bright either. I decided to go to bed. I knew that as soon as I did this, he would post another inane rant with no solutions. How could he have a solution?

Before I go to bed though... what comapny makes Prozac? I better shoot over to my brokerage site first and buy some stock....

Kahn, Wally- here is a response for you: let me see us Lefties are the cut and run kings right?

Hmmm- so if w fails in 3-5-7 months- take your pick- didn't he say he was going to pack up the bags?

hey CAN ANY ONE TELL MY WHAT THAT MEANS IN PLAIN ENGLISH!?!??!?!?!?

gee- i know it's on the tip of my tounge, ccc. cccuuu..cuuut... oh i just can't remember.

Furthermore- 4 years are nearing. You know, every day Bush shouted how good we were doing. How wonderful the war was. for 4 years!

Please explain to us all why that was not true? Because up until December 2006 i bleived Bush. I thought it was going A-OK. Didn't you?

oh- if afte 4 years of a failed war- how can you possible suggest to us that a few months will magically make us "victorious" ?

Let us know- seriously- tell us how after 4 years of losing a war, we can all of a sudden WIN?

--

and Waldo: "I'll repeat it because it needs repeating... IF BUSH IS BEHIND IT, YOU'LL BE IN LINE AGAINST IT."

yes you are 100% absolutely, unequivocally correct. There i said it. Would you like to know why- or simply cry and rant and rave like usual?

you see when a so called "leader" of our great nation goes and plays dolls with our men and womens lives, and spends our money to the tune of $400B i take that personally. No i take that publically-- i take that publically as a not only total BS but as a threat and impairment on this great nation. What kind of a fool would go and spend $400B and 3018 troops lives on a whim off the beaten path of terrorism? I'll tell you what kind- W.

And you know when i see people that follow and tune in with their antennae to W like a sheep at the feed bin, i get angry, i get saddened, mostly i get the sense that this country is being looted and damaged and the blind just tune on in. You know if some of you had some real chahonies you might show a little more pride for America. Rather than party allegiance. I always believed America came first. But i see the $400B and the 3000 lives came first and that's not the end of it.

So yes, i hold W and the supporters responsible for this tragedy in our great nation. The American people have been taken for a ride and then some. This truly is a great scar on our country.

Would anyone like to address the lack of definition in the terms "Iraqi Army", "Iraqi Governemnt", "insurgents", "terrorists", and "democracy"?

To be more specific:

How will we address al Sadr's influence on the streets and 30 seats in the government?

What about the Shiite death squads who make up much of the official government army?

This parliamentary government is our creation, so if it loses legitimacy are we to fix it again?

Who are the insurgents? Sunnis? Shiites?

Who are the terrorists?

Are Iranian/Syrian foreign fighters supposed to be treated the same as Jordanian or al Qaeda foreign fighters?

Does an "imperfect democracy" in Iraq mean we are giving up on women's rights?

When Shiite police/soldiers attack Sunni civilians, will the US forces be able to intervene? Vice versa?

All-in-all, I want Bush's latest plan to succeed. But we cannot - for the sake of our future generations - pass the buck to the Iraqis if things go south. While strength and bravery are very American, nothing is more integral to democracy than personal responsibility.

Bush's speech tonight set the stage for a buck-passing; both to the next president of the US and to Iraqis themselves. In essence, his rhetoric said that we have tried as much as we can and if anything negative happens, it ain’t our fault you all can’t get your crap together.

His admission of “mistakes made” was only refreshing in the context of a man who swore he couldn’t think of any. It was a knowingly inconsequential gesture to critics and those who have sacrificed their lives and the lives of their loved ones devoid of political, social, or moral consequence. There was no humility or regret, only the posture of a proud man in over his head.

And Kahn, it is funny that bin Laden and al Qaeda is so “irrelevant” now, since the White House makes it a point to emphasize we are fighting them in Somalia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Not funny ha-ha, naturally.

Anyway, I posted a plan for Iraq a while ago in the "Some Questions" discussion:

Again, your straw man uses the negatively-associated term “retreat” in lieu of the qualitatively-ambiguous “redeployment” in an effort to make the redistribution of a globally-active military force seem cowardly. But there is a little thing called the United States Navy, which I am proud to have been a part of, which offers exactly such a platform for stationing, supplying, and embarking large amounts of ground forces from international waters. It is a concept called “Over The Horizon”, where – even if everyone denies our request for stationing – US forces can be deployed within an hour to quell hot spots as is needed.

Combine this with the ideas of five “super bases” along the central axis of Iraq where smaller units could be stationed and the fact that Qatar, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia owe us big time for decades of support and aid and you have a variety of options which would sufficiently serve as forward-deployable areas.

Which you refuted eloquently...oh wait, you didn't even mention it. Or are you only looking to Ben for a plan?

Bill - nice rant. You hate Bush. Got it.

Know whats missing from your post? YOUR PLAN.

WHATS YOUR PLAN FOR IRAQ BILL?

As expected, we always hear from the Flag Waving Democrats.

BTW- please answer this as well as anythig else you intend to ignore as usual. But if over the course of the last 4 years- bush said things in Iraq were okie dokie- i mean up until the days preceeding the '06 midterms, and just three weeks ago said things were not okie dokie.

Tell me this: which is it- was Bush lying for the last 4 years? As he simply says things are not going like he had said they were? or is he simply lying now, and things are still going a-ok?

which is it? you can't have it both ways? Which is the truth that Bush spoke?

And if either are a lie, ***why would you continue to let Bush pull the wool over YOUR eyes***?

And why should we believe anything Bush has to say? one or the other of his statements are flat out lies. which one is it? the war was great for 4 years, or that the war is not so great now?

or does being President excuse flip flopping?

Bill - admit you have no plan. All your posts are just justifications for hating Bush. Admit it OK?

When EXACTLY did you start hating him and seeing ALL his decision as evil? I mean, if it was after Florida, then most people would assume your opinions are jaded. Thats when the press and the Democratic leadership started hating him. And their opinions ARE jaded.

The hatred is getting old. You are obssesed with it. You refuse to say ANYTHING constuctive.

Do you walk down the street making wild arm movements and muttering to yourself? Or do you loudly argue with yourself? Have you ever been so angry that you soiled yourself rather than go inside? Have you lost friends and family because they can no longer stand your rants? Are you bathing? Have you been on medecine that you decided to stop taking?

Bill? Bill? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me. You may feel a little pin prick. Then everything will be all right!

Kahn- Come on don't diss on floyd like that. You truly can not appreciate the great liberal minded genius that produced, "pigs, pigs on the wing, dogs, etc.? listen to your rants, now go listen to that splendid peice of lefty proganda- ahh enjoy. Now isn't that calming and good for the soul?

Always has and always will be my fav. album by them.
--

any way- back to business- did Bush lie the 1st four years of the war or now? just answer that.

--- Oh and as a real thought i had today- *can't we all smoke a bong?* seriously- i realized today all we are doing is acting like little congress kids across the aisle.

hugs and kisses 8^)

BTW i told you why- taking America for a ride to $400B and 300 lives is wrong. After 4 years things have been going south. But who knew?

i mean i am not a smart man, but certainly you guys are smarter. And i can figure it out?

BTW Kahn- i realize you referred to The Wall- not Animals. Animals just fits though.

Am I the only one to notice the escalation from terrorists and insurgents as they received massive support, in the way of total opposition to Bush, during the last year? It would make one almost think they wished tom effect the US elections in '06.

With all the rhetoric from the anti-liberty left, the one word never spoken by them is VICTORY!

Was that purged from their lexicons?

BS, enjoy your Pink Floyd but smoke a little less. You'll enjoy life more and hate Bush less.

Even if you only enjoy life more, that's half the battle.

Wow, President Bush was at the top of his game tonight. I was a little wary of what he was going to say tonight but all for no reason. That was an inspiring speech and the plan for victory I always knew he had in him.

God bless America!

Bill,

Come what may, though, patriotism requires you to want us to win in Iraq, no matter how much it costs...you can't quit in war and come home unscathed. Condemn the way we got into it all you want, but now we need a plan for victory - President Bush has offered his, the Democratic Party has wimped out, being unwilling to either fight for victory or defeat...so, what do you propose to do? Sulk?

Lastly, lets hear your counter arguments, Im ready for a good solid discussion.

Posted by: GTgraduate at January 11, 2007 12:31 AM

GT, two words! GO HOME!

How many failures? Lets count the ways. The NAFTA free trade agreement, the response to national disasters, national health care policies, no child left behind, non-competitive bids. With this new approach to Iraq, it seems destined to failure from the standpoint of this administrations poor performance. Viet Nam? Intel is investing billions. Were not the terrorist Saudi's? Are we not still buying Saudi oil at the expense of American lives? It seems obvious that as long as there are pockets to pick the public will be fleased and that low gas prices will bring about no change in behavior or spending. That the world will go on no matter how crazy it gets, and China will polute more of the earth than all of the former industrialized nations combined. God help us all.

I will read through the comments tomorrow, and undoubtedly hear and re-hear various positions and pieces of the President’s speech; however, if I am not mistaken (and I very well can be) did I heard a loosening of the ROE on the troops in Iraq within the speech? Hopefully the President has taken the blinders and handcuffs off of our military so they can do what they do best while allowing themselves to protect their own as well.

How many failures? Lets count the ways. The NAFTA free trade agreement, the response to national disasters, national health care policies, no child left behind, non-competitive bids. With this new approach to Iraq, it seems destined to failure from the standpoint of this administrations poor performance. Viet Nam? Intel is investing billions. Were not the terrorist Saudi's? Are we not still buying Saudi oil at the expense of American lives? It seems obvious that as long as there are pockets to pick the public will be fleased and that low gas prices will bring about no change in behavior or spending. That the world will go on no matter how crazy it gets, and China will polute more of the earth than all of the former industrialized nations combined. God help us all.

How many failures? Lets count the ways. The NAFTA free trade agreement, the response to national disasters, national health care policies, no child left behind, non-competitive bids. With this new approach to Iraq, it seems destined to failure from the standpoint of this administrations poor performance. Viet Nam? Intel is investing billions. Were not the terrorist Saudi's? Are we not still buying Saudi oil at the expense of American lives? It seems obvious that as long as there are pockets to pick the public will be fleased and that low gas prices will bring about no change in behavior or spending. That the world will go on no matter how crazy it gets, and China will polute more of the earth than all of the former industrialized nations combined. God help us all.

bush looked off-balance and scared. not his usual petulant self. not surprising given that he's chosen to sell an escalation against the advice of his commanders, his own troops, the recommendations of the baker commission, congress, and... and... oh yeah - the american people.

we are witnessing the pneumonic gasps of a presidency whose credibility and stature have been reduced to an ashen hulk. i have to hand it to the wingers over here who, through some mastery of tortured logic, have resolutely stood by their 'commander-in-chief' to the end. for many of us however, it's only getting started.

bush looked off-balance and scared. not his usual petulant self.

Posted by conscriptor at January 11, 2007 08:24 AM

Yes, almost robotic. I was almost feeling sorry for the guy. You can see the lies and deceit are taking a toll.

wawilliyo

Myopia is GT's, BS's, CO's and Cyber's middle name.

If I weren't an American, I hadn't been to B4B before and I just stumbled by this blog and read the lib posts, my first impression would be that the sky is falling. What losers!

BTW, GTgrad does NOT live in the US! He's Sambo the Suicide Bomber in disguise and every other word is pro-terrorist...so ignore him, unless you want to feel like reaching thru cyberspace and ripping out his larynx.

Hasn't anyone noticed how he starts out Ok and then falls back into his uncontrollable pro-terrorist rants? He just can't contain his hatred for the USA.

All we hear from the left is quagmire...but did any of you kooks hear that 80% of the country is calm and that the majority of violence is within 30 miles of Baghdad? I didn't think so since you hate GW so much that you only hear the bad and not the good or facts from the field...idiots!

And for GT's assinine statement: "If you think for one second that the US or Israel will attack Iran, you are grossly mistaken. Those precious soldiers will become Iranian hostages."

What soldiers?

Little terrorist, you have absolutely NO idea of our military might. Do you really think that we're going to send foot soldiers into Iran!

Haven't you seen the news little terrorist? We used our mighty gunships to kill your brothers in Somalia and guess what, we've learned that we don't need to put boots on the ground in some instances and if you think that we can't beat your pethetic Iranian terrorist network with our airpower, then please..please try to remember that when you hear the scream of our incoming missles that will take every one of your government control centers, nuke facilities, power plants, sub-stations, pharmacies, sheep farms and whore houses. It's called "CONTAINMENT" pea brain!

We'll seal off the borders with airpower, and line the borders with Iraqi military, (you know Sunnis & Shites...the ones that your insurgent terrorists are killing), seal Iran off and pound the Fu#* out of you until we're outa bullets.

Ya see, little terrorist, what you didn't hear in GW's speach last nite was his line about controlling the Iranian and Syrian insurgency....ie. he's warning Iran and Syria...moron, that they'd better back off or Israel and American are gonna make their lives real messy.

Do you know whhyyy little terrorist?
Because GW and our military may be at their witts end and they've realized that this very well may be America's last stand...but this last stand has our military behind it, and we're gonna make a whole lotta mess if we do decide to attack Iran.

What you also forget is that even though you may have hundreds of thousands of so-called terrorists ready to go to battle for Iran, your lowly country does not, or will not be able to support those terrorists with the weapons and supplies needed to execute any large operation. Especially when you factor in that we'll be watching every step you make...like we are right now.

in all fairness to kahn - who's been demanding (DEMANDING) a plan from the democrats (as if it were their responsibility and their war) to win this war, i say the following: iraq is long lost. don't kid yourself, not even the president has a plan to win, he has a plan to stay. there were no grandiloquent plans for establishing democracy, or building schools, or uniting divided peoples, no - the only plan presented was to simply try to stop the violence. got it? that's where we are. we are playing crossing guard in the middle of an escalating civil war. this is all about preserving bush's own ass and has nothing to do with saving a country - we're long past that indeed.

so let's please dispense with the demands for a bulleted blueprint for restoring blooming avenues of commerce and free-speech and democracy and all that other bullsh*t. operation ain't gonna happen. it's time to pullback to the borders and let the elements in the crucible burn themselves out - all the while observing from a distance the effects on the violence that US force removal may have on the region. removing US targets may actually compel the iraqi government (or some surrogate body) to take some restorative initiative. but for sake of reason, let's stop wasting more lives and countless more billions of taxpayers dollars. i'll take defense of our homeland from our own shores any day. and yeah to all of you who scream hysterically: 'don't forget the lessons of 9/11' - let me tell you, i lived it, i was there, i've got the dusty suit to prove it. this whole thing had nothing, NOTHING to do with 9/11. so please shove it where the sun don't shine.

this whole thing had nothing, NOTHING to do with 9/11. so please shove it where the sun don't shine.

Posted by: conscriptor at January 11, 2007 09:48 AM

You kooks that continue to stick your heads in the sands of ignorance must grow thicker skin! It's just going to get worse & the worse it gets the more we'll view you as traitors & cowards.

why do you hate america bearman?

Mark: " patriotism requires you to want us to win in Iraq, no matter how much it costs..."

what?

Patriotism requires the interest and safety of Amercia and the American people 1st !!! what are you talking about? Winning an un-winnable perpetual war has not 1 thing to do with patriotism. This is like the 4th period, down by 20 and no time outs and no fouls to give, 30 seconds left. Why continue to toss money and American lives in at this point?

Mark, seriously, do you really beleive Bush would be here AGAIN- 4 years later trying to convince us to buy used tires AGAIN if the war was all on par?

The American people have been sold more used tires than we have cars! The song and dance gets old after the 70th or 80th time of hearing "a new plan" a "way forward" etc.

Please, seriously ask yourself how many times have you heard this song by bush? And with all sincerity ask yourself why would you let Bush fool you over and over and over?

I’ve read lots of comments from Libs on a number of different forums, and it seems they all fall into one of three catagories: the ones who actually WANT us to lose because we deserve to be taken down a peg; the ones who say they want to win but advocate actions that would result in us losing (and don’t seem to understand the conflict in those positions); and those like Conscriptor who think we’ve already lost and see it as an acceptable outcome. Personally, I see the third group as the largest and most dangerous, but the common thread holding them all together is the word “LOSE”, and it is what has held the Left together for the last 60 years. Ever since WWII they’ve seen the logical outcome of any military conflict, even ones that they initially supported, in terms of “exit strategy”, not victory. It is one of the great political ironies of our time that Harry Reid called President Bush a “loser”.

We have the toughest, smartest, best trained and best equipped military force in the history of the planet. Losing is NOT ACCEPTABLE and the possibility of losing should not even be an option, especially a piddly little, low intensity conflict like Iraq.

Bear, Mark, Matt, Kahn, Navy, Lew, Wally, all others that i just can't recall:

Look i don't want to sound trite herebut seriously in a year or so WHEN Bush withdraws troops- and i won't even call it "cut and run" for this point- let's just call it withdrawl. At that time which you and i and everyone knows is inevitable, then THEN will you ask yourself what good did pounding your finger on the counter like Powell do?

Ask yourself- go ahead, ask yourself was ranting and raving to suppot Bush and this war woth anything other than a headache and a futile fist in the air?

You know, i know, the ISG knows, the GENERALS know, I think even evidenced by Bush himself that he KNOWS, it is just a matter of time until the troops come home. Dragging this out is really prolonging the inevitable. We are not going to achieve anything but more $$ spent and more American deaths.

You know this and i know it. Everyone knows this. At what point do you STOP and think to yourself that...Maybe it's just time to do the right thing above and beyond pride and cherish our soldiers and welcome them back home?

whatever spook. we've heard this tired meme before. "losing is not an option" is an analog for "i'll save my face at any cost regardless of the damage to others - so long as i'm not part of it" - this is where smart and stupid dovetail.

but i guess the commanders, chuck hagel, oliver north, gordon smith, norm coleman, walter jones, wayne gilchrest, ron paul, john duncan, steven latourette, oh - annd the american public all fall into that oh-so-dangerous third category as well.

..but if it brings solace to your soul, spook, what the hell, let's "declare victory" first, then start redeploying. it's all one big game of sloganeering anyhow, isn't it?

So now Bush is responsible for NAFTA coming into effect? Wow Matt... you must be sooo desperate to come up with things that you deem failures that you're willing to list something Clinton did (much like letting OBL go, twice, and not responding to six terrorist attacks on American interests) and saying Bush did it.

I get it Matt... you're f*cked up world view has it like this... Everything bad... Bush did it. Everything good... it was the forces of light AGAINST Bush making it happen. Does that sum it up?

BS

What makes you think that even if we decide to leave...we'll leave? As long as there are terrorists in that part of the world, we're staying and killing as many as we can...period...no leaving. So get used to it.

At what point will you kooks twist victory and say that we had to "cut-n-run"? If the Iraqis begin to take control and we're able to move our military out of Baghdad into other parts of the region, will this signal that we've lost, or do you need to have a surrender signing on the floor of one of Saddam's palaces?

When will you liberal kooks open your eyes and see that this isn't about 911, it isn't about Saddam, it isn't about GW's legacy and it surely isn't about oil, or we'd be floatin in it.

It's about a threat that was exposed by 911, exposed by Saddam, exposed by the Taliban, exposed by the Iranians, exposed by the Syrians, exposed by Hezbollah and this threat MUST be dealt with. If not, countries such as Somalia will be become breeding grounds for terrorists and their allies and at a rate that neither you or I will want to face in the future.

So, without retaliating with some anti-bush rhetoric, please explain what the lib plan for controlling terrorism around the world is.

Please, we'd all love to here it. The rest of you libs chime in, cause we want to hear your plans too.

navy - it's about bush's legacy. don't kid yourself.

wawilliyo

People like this Matt freak have no idea what they are talking about. It is all emotional and nothing rational. Such as the NAFTA comment.

"non-competitive bids"--Find a company that has the same abilities/qualifications that Haliburton has...just one.

"Are we not still buying Saudi oil at the expense of American lives"---Maybe we wouldn't if the liberal kooks in this part of the world would allow drilling in ANWAR and the gulf.

BTW, do you drive a car, or ride a bike cause either way, they are both manufactured with petroleum based products.

And yes, China is the leader in pollutants, yet the libs accuse the US of being the leader...why is that kook?

So Matt, do your part and stop living because every single thing that you do every day requires oil..even when your ranting here at B4B.

Right Con

Considering all humans are equal for the sake of argument. Would you put others in harms way for your legacy? Most likely not, so what makes you think any other human other than an Islamic extremist would? Or do you consider GW an Islamic extremist?

This..is gonna be good!!!

whatever spook. we've heard this tired meme before. "losing is not an option" is an analog for "I'll save my face at any cost regardless of the damage to others - so long as I'm not part of it" - this is where smart and stupid dovetail.

About the kind of answer I'd expect from someone in the "Whatever Generation". Good thing you're not in charge, Conscriptor.

NAVY NAVY NAVY :What makes you think that even if we decide to leave...we'll leave? As long as there are terrorists in that part of the world, we're staying and killing as many as we can...period...no leaving. So get used to it."

yeah we already get it. Bush is there for ever! Yes count the years- 4- EVER- thats F.O.R.E.V.E.R.

you know why? because there always has been and always will be Terrorist.

NAVY- hello? are you kidding me, the group, yourself or who? NAVY- ? Hello- terroirst weil never cease to exist.

You have your perpetual war. is this what you want forever? to feed our kids to their death at the age of 20 FOREVER?

how long, Navy, how long until the terrorist no-longer exist? tell me? Tell us. tell the group right here and now- how long until you think terroist will finally just call it quits?

to play your rhetorical game- GIVE US AN ANSWER.

Wally- I think Matt is on YOUR side.

Navy- yes you are correct. Pretty much anything we do does need oil. It sucks, but that's a fact.

of course we COULD have invested $400B into freeing ourselves from the grip of foreign oil. ButNooooooo. we had to go waste it and ur troops lives on a war?

hmmm smart move huh? $400B to liberate Iraq rather than liberate America.

Boy- that's an American interest if i ever saw one. But again, i guess supporting that move makes us "patriotic"

anyone ever heard of America 1st?

Or do you consider GW an Islamic extremist?

This..is gonna be good!!!

Posted by: navydad at January 11, 2007 11:18 AM

what do i think of george bush? i think he's a simpleton who's never met with any personal successes of his own. he's remarkably illiterate and lacking in understanding of geopolitics, historical and present. he is disturbingly petulant and displays a level of arrogance and hubris that seems ill-suited to someone who has such a ruinous past. he stumbles over the simplest of concepts and has no clear capacity to formulate reason and analysis. he depends on the efforts of others and feels equally comfortable laying blame at the feet of the same. he is unrepentant and self-righteous, thin-skinned and tactless. plain and simple - he's a wanker.

I knew it would be good, but I didn't think it would be so trite.

I can't even give a "Nice try"...sorry.

damn

Hello- terrorists well never cease to exist. (hope you don't mind that I corrected all your typos.)

I can't imagine anyone here disagreeing with that, Bill. It's one of the few truthful things you said since you started posting here.

how long, Navy, how long until the terrorist no-longer exist? tell me? Tell us. tell the group right here and now- how long until you think terroist will finally just call it quits?

to play your rhetorical game- GIVE US AN ANSWER.

Bill, it's a simple answer, and I'd think such a simple-minded individual as yourself would know the answer. When we and our allies have eliminated all the terrorist safe havens on this planet, then terrorism will wind down to a managable level. Even J. Fraud Kerry realized that ("We need to get back to the point where terrorism is just a nuisance".), he just never revealed his "secret plan" for accomplishing it. If he had, he might be President. Whoaaa, now that's a scary thought.

Spook- Ok let' give you your point. THEN WHY- why did we go in to a non-terrorist front and nurture it?

Spook- your logic is about as infoulabe as a home run on the other side of the 3rd base line.

Boy spook- we really socked it to the non-contained terrorists in Iraq huh? Way to go team. Let's hear it for that call!

BS, you're talking points are becoming less credible by the minute.

"non-terrorist front"

Has one single person other than you indicated that the terrorists haven't been able to cross borders between Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq or Syria?

IS there an impenetrable wall that prevents terrorists from entering those countries?

If this is the way you think then it's a good thing you're not in politics.

Additionally, BS. The WOT is world wide with terrorists flooding in from Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, even Africa and about twenty other countries. But wait, I thought the terrorists were all from Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? Which is it BS?

I'm getting tired of explaining the fundamentals of the WOT to you kooks and it really is a good thing that you're on the wrong side of this war, cause we don't want ya!!

Gee Navy you got me there. I recall ALL the claims of Terrorist thriving in Iraq back in '03.

Yep Bush laid it all out back then. Remember all the speeches on terrorist and the lives they lead in Iraq? Man i almost forgot all those briefings.

Thanks for reminding us all of how saturated Iraq was with terrorist back in January of 2003.

thanks for clarifying that Saddam couldn't conrtol the terrorist front that was seeping from his borders.

Whew- for a minute there i thought we went to find WMD's or something.

Thanks Navy

Navy my mistake- you just mentioned the WOT all over the world. My bad- for a minute there i thought we went to Iraq to fight terrorism.

sorry bro

is everyone ready to collectively bang heads on desk?

here it is:

President Bush is expected to announce this week the dispatch of thousands of additional troops to Iraq as a stopgap measure. Such an order, Pentagon officials say, would strain the Army and Marine Corps as they man both wars.

A US Army battalion fighting in a critical area of eastern Afghanistan is due to be withdrawn within weeks to deploy to Iraq.

Army Brigadier General Anthony J. Tata and other US commanders say that will happen as the Taliban is expected to unleash a campaign to cut the vital road between Kabul and Kandahar.

that's right folks - troops are being moved out of the real front in the WOT to be moved to fight bush's maelstrom in iraq. defend it wingers.

source: http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/01/08/commanders_seek_more_forces_in_afghanistan/

Const- duhh. didn't you see my concern that we haven't heard OBL's name in- what- a year or more?

I got a response like- OBL isn't a big deal any more. He isn't a threat to the US. etc. so on and so forth.

I guess the reason we went to Iraq to find Osama and his WMD's just pales in comparison to the real mission of nursing along terroists in Iraq.

Boy we Americans sure are dubyadumb

hmm- almost like bubble yum- Just DUBBYA-DUMB

you heard it first here America

Man, I get ignored here by the Bushites like the fat acne kid at recess...

"Boy we Americans sure are dubyadumb"

Speak for yourself..BS, you and the libs here are the only ones that mangle the English language worse than GW.

hahahahaaaaaaa

oooohh oohhh hahaha

Man Navy- that was litterally some funny stuff!

wow! that was good :-) :-) :-)

after lat nights speech i needed that. Thanks!

We killed 150 today in Afghanistan Bill, does it sound like we are losing there? Care to spin that?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070111/wl_nm/afghan_violence_dc_7

Actually, that was pretty funny BS, kinda like your typing!!! LMAO!

what do i think of george bush? i think he's a simpleton who's never met with any personal successes of his own. he's remarkably illiterate and lacking in understanding of geopolitics, historical and present. he is disturbingly petulant and displays a level of arrogance and hubris that seems ill-suited to someone who has such a ruinous past. he stumbles over the simplest of concepts and has no clear capacity to formulate reason and analysis. he depends on the efforts of others and feels equally comfortable laying blame at the feet of the same. he is unrepentant and self-righteous, thin-skinned and tactless. plain and simple - he's a wanker.

Posted by: conscriptor at January 11, 2007 01:06 PM

The comic relief posted here is matched by none! Thanks Con, I needed a laugh! Between Bill and yourself, I'm going to crack some ribs!