Hey Mark,
I wanted to comment about the Democracy and Christians which you're talking about.
As far as Christians are concerned, I believe in
Jesus Christ and I call Him Lord because His Spirit reigns in my heart.
The Majority of the Christians in America do not know who the leader of Iran is. They don't understand the religious factions and the latter consequences of dealing with people who want to terrorize this country.
As far as Democracies and Monarchys, I want you to know that the Leading Founders of This great Nation Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Adams, and the rest were born again Christian folks that understand what a Democracy is. They understood the value of human life and the right to protect it.
The Kingdom that true born again christians are members of are called "The Church" And If you're born again through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Lord, then you're a member of that Kingdom.
Nobody votes you in, nobody votes you out.
The Lord said Himself, "My Kingdom (which is neither monarchies, or political in any way) is not of this world, if it was, then My servants would fight."
You see Mark, I appreciate your blogs my friend, but I think you fail to understand the spiritual aspects of the Kingdom of God.
My son, Jeremiah enjoys reading your posts, etc. and I appreciate the many blogs coming across this website.
I used to post blogs under "Truth is Right" but I've seen so many hurtful things being said against others, that I have limited my comments, so instead I post under Jeremiahs once in a while.
I wished the American people could see the truth about what's happening in our world. I wished they could see the truth beyond the many politicans that "what the news media calls cut and run" can't see the dangers that our country face in the coming years, if terrorism is not fought on the other side of our oceans.
Trying to talk understandably with a terrorist is of NO avail. They say they will talk, but friends, it's blood they're after. They care nothing about life, they care nothing of the value of a human being. They care about one thing and that is ruling this nation with a Rod of Iron and a Holy War.
God help us is all I can say. Thank you M.

The founding fathers had more faith in man than in any divinity.

I second your last paragraph Jeremiah and if more people around the world would open their eyes to the severity of terrorism as we know it, they would think twice about condemning our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As a Christian, I was raised to believe that there is "good in all people" to put it simply, however, as I grow older (over 50), I realize this is not always the case and the fact that I've seen intel that would scare the pants off most libs has guided me through my plight to confront and educate as many people that will listen to the facts that we're in a real war, not a pretend war, rather one with beheadings, bombings and torture by monsters that place such a low value on human life that they would kill their neighbors in the name of God, nauseates me.

Although it is a difficult row to hoe, we must continue this plight and God willing, we will prevail. Unfortunately, it most likely will not happen in your's or my lifetime...sadly enough.

It also concerns me that the far left in this country is more concerned with the establishment of power rather than the establishment of good over evil.

As a grandparent, I seem to have more time to spend observing how my grandchildren are being educated and it's appalling to see the secularity that is being taught to our youth. It is dispecible to say the least.

After 911 my personal Kingdom became filled with hate and sorrow, mostly because my youngest son would be called to duty and to know that innocent lives had been taken for no apparent reason. Much like that of millions of Americans.

This brings me to where I am today. Less hate, more humor, although some may think some of my posts are hateful, I believe it's innocent sarcasm in response to liberal ignorance and to be blunt...stupidity. There is no logic in a liberal's vocabulary.

Each of us has our own Kingdom in our soul and if one let's their conscience be their guide rather than their political party, they may find life, and this world a more beautiful place.

Afterall, we're only renting these bodies.

Mark, Do you realize (realise) you've been using British spelling recently? A definite step in the right direction!

Jeremiah,

thats all fine and dandy. Stop for one second- just stop. Now imagine you were born in Iran. Would be so sure of the Christians then? i doubt it. How porud then woul dyo be of Iran?

I bet very proud. You can't say your religion is any better than any one elses. It's not. You just beleive it is. So, again, if you were a Palestinian then? a jew? a pharo worshiping worker 3000 years ago?

all your beleifes are deriivitebe of the here and now. But you just had the American dice roll and in this current century. I guarantee if your fate were othewise your convictions would be just as strong, yet in another direction.

First,
Jeremiah,
sorry, but you're an idiot if you think the founding fathers were Christians, much less "born again"
does this sound like a born again Christian?

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it…In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Mark, how's following God's laws coming? Still picking and choosing? How many times this week and the next will you obey Lev. 11?
how about you give a little respect to the religion you claim to follow and OBEY GOD before you speak of it...Same goes for you Jeremiah, how many of God's laws did you break today? and you have the nerve to say His spirit lives in your heart...You're a hypocritical joke who doesn't even understand the faith you've been blinded by

which brings us back to Mark’s original post, which only goes to show how much Christians don’t even understand Christianity, but as Jeremiah proves, that won’t stop them from shouting at the top of their lungs in ignorance.

Opponent, despite your numerous typing errors, your post has provoked some thought with me. I shudder to think what life would be like if I were a radical Palestinian, or a radical Iranian. And I'm sure that the Muslims/Hindus/Bhuddists/Jews/Christians who practice their faith in a peaceful, loving manner, are justified in believing that their faith is just as good as any other's faith.

The real question is tolerance. While leftist kooks on this blog will assert otherwise, I've yet to view any faith that didn't tolerate all other faiths. Except, of course, radical Islam, which, IMHO, is not a faith, but a religion hijacked by extremists.

I must go now, and retrieve food from the local Italian eatery. I'll be back...

What is your point Opponent? Of course our lives are biased based on how we were raised, and in what area. We're not all cookie cutter people that end up the same no matter how we're baked.

And Opus, your point? You constantly attack Christians on this board, do you attack all religious people or are you just a Christian hater? I haven't heard you attacking Buddhists for not following the way, or Muslims for not killing an infadel. Or an Atheist for believing in anything. Come on man, fair is fair, attack everyone now. :)

opus,

how many of God's laws did i disobey today? if i reflect caefully and prayerfully, i'll probably find a lot that i did in opposition to God's will...we're alwas doing inexcusable things but not, by grace of Our Lord, unforgivable.

and as for leviticus - you'll have yo ask a theologian for a good explanation of the context and full meaning...i'm assuerd by Authority thar i'm ok as any human is likely to be vis a vis that.

and your quote fomr jefferson is embarrassing...terrible to see that the great man sonetimes gave himself over to such sophomoric rhetoric...but, then again, Jefferson was just another of God's children, and you can't expect perfection from such in this fallen world.

jeremiah the elder,

true enough - but it is still a monarchy we Christians live under. His kingdom is not of this world, but His writ does extend here into our rebel camp, even if we choose to be disobediant. and, of course, we are not entirely of this world, either...we are made for our God, and for the far more real life of the world to come.

Mark, one thing I should point out is that democracy and monarchy are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as we see with the "constitutional monarchy" of the U.K. Speaking of which, I would answer your question by paraphrasing that great U.K. statesman (whose mum was American) Winston Churchill: We Christians favor democracy because it's the worst form of government - except for all the others.

I don't really think that Democracy is a "Christian Institution"... it was, afterall, invented by pagans. Also, many of our founders, including Jefferson (who was incorrectly labelled as a "Born again christian") were diests. The real draw of Democracy is that it almost guarantees consent of the people. If the people get fed-up with their government, they elect a new one. It is completely derived from the people; God only has something to do with it if you believe in him.

George W Bush 'calls' himself a Christian! Seems your comments mean you have a little soul searching to do... Despite the fact that my comment has been blocked by your site(or,prhaps, because of it...) I do not believe I have made a "malicious" comment. I am simply asking you to question your beliefs and allegiances. Surely, any belief is only confirmed by question? I do not question your right to hold your own beliefs. It seems you do not allow me the same pivilege.

Opponent,
We in America have the right to be a Christian, Buddhist, Taoist and/or Pagan if we choose. We have a right to read the sacred texts of other religions, to proselytize for the one (or none) to whom we're faithful, to convert and convert back if we like. In the Islamic states, people die for these things. So, it actually is different if we were raised in Iran, we may not know about Christianity.

But it is different, we're raised in America, and we make choices within the priveleged context of an open and tolerant society. You seem to argue that somehow because if I was raised in Iran I would be a Muslim but since I was raised in America I may be a Christian, that somehow that makes all religions and societies equal. If that were true, then the radical Islamists would allow other religions into their countries in the security that they're right, and if given a choice people will see that.

Mark,
Neat topic. I'm of two minds about this. Part of me says that without democracy, people aren't invested in government, they won't believe they can affect the outcome so why would they participate? The other part of me says many people don't care enough to get and stay informed. Look at the two party system's corruption. People don't even have to know the name of the person they're voting for. Why don't we make all ballots write in ballots?

As a more fundamental change, I wonder if it isn't time to change not the opportunity for citizenship but the process. That is, if people want to be a citizen, they have to take certain tests, provide national service for a couple years, contribute in other ways that fit. And such people are the ones the state cares for through pensions, medical care, and other programs. But the idea that people can parasite off the government for all their lives without contributing anything is offensive.

This would be a great way to solve the immigration issue too. Citizenship is allowed for anyone willing to give the necessary commitment. I would first trust someone born in Japan who puts in a couple years of service to become an American citizen with our nation's future than someone born in Louisiana who's uninformed and unmotivated. In America we have become the Monarchists because we give political power based on birthright, not merit. We give political power to anyone born in America regardless of whether they've earned it.

I have yet to find in the Bible where is says Christians will never do anything wrong, never be hypocrites, and never disagree with each other. In fact, it says otherwise. Its says humans will make mistakes, sin, and be hypocritical. It just says that when we do, we should ask for forgiveness and try are best not to do it again.

So why do people like our lefty friends here feel like it is their duty to point out to us every and any time we are not perfect? There is only one perfect person, ever, and that is Jesus. We know this. Being Christian doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. It just means we know God still loves us even when we make them.

------------------------------------

And about our little monarchy discussion... I am glad Jesus is my king. It is difficult to be in that mindset though.

It is not democracy that Christians like. They would do just as well in a Christian but fascist nation as well as would secular humanists in a secular humanist fascist state. Democracy is not what they love it is the capitalism and its attendant materialism. As poverty has radicalized Islam for 1400 years, so it would be with Christendom. Outside of the Catholic nations of Central and South America name one economically poor predominantly Christian nation.

On behalf of Socrates, the defense rests.

Ima white- ok now you attack my typos- boy there's tolerance for ya.

Any way- seems to me like W is on some insane crusade to rid the world of other's and their faith. Can i not BELIEVE this?

BTW we had Mexican-but italian would have worked as well. I am all international- increadible the gifts of the world...not 1 race or 1 color or 1 sex or 1 financial status- whoa! the far right! ouch!

Morris, I completely agree- the STATE is different. But that would not de-value one's beleif based on location in time and space. I still would wager the majority of Martians believe differntly than Earthlings.

There is one current event that does contradict your point though- the Minnisota (Mark should be u on this ;-) ) but to validate your premise on the "right to be ..."x" " shouldn't Ellison be able to use any book or lack there of as he so chooses? I mean You certainly wouldn't want a Koran forced down your throat to swear in for your duty...woudl you?

I mean we certainly WOULD NOT want our government endorsing 1 religions over the other...especially as you point out we have these freedoms to choose. right?

Morris, I completely agree- the STATE is different. But that would not de-value one's beleif based on location in time and space. I still would wager the majority of Martians believe differntly than Earthlings.

There is one current event that does contradict your point though- the Minnisota (Mark should be up on this ;-) ) but to validate your premise on the "right to be ..."x" " shouldn't Ellison be able to use any book or lack there of as he so chooses? I mean You certainly wouldn't want a Koran forced down your throat to swear in for your duty...woudl you?

I mean we certainly WOULD NOT want our government endorsing 1 religion over the other...especially as you point out we have these freedoms to choose. right?

I mean we certainly WOULD NOT want our government endorsing 1 religion over the other...especially as you point out we have these freedoms to choose. right?

Well, I prefer Christianity, because it works on the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ, and working toward the goal of good deeds instead of bad ones. Because Jesus came down from heaven to fulfill the laws of His Father and who are One now in Heaven.

And that is why it is important for the Nation as a whole to vote for Christian government in order that we may be in God's Will.

But it takes a willingness on the part of the American people to see and acknowledge that Islam is bad first, then I think, God's people will rise and defeat and crush the Evil that the Moslem world threaten us with.

Jeremiah

True, we don't want the government endorcing a religion, but swearing on a bible isn't an endorcement any more than saying "under god" in the pledge is either.

All the Bible is in swearing in practices is a prop. For some it means more than others, but all it is when you get right down to it is a symbol and a prop for our custom. If we start changing it with every person who is sworn in what are you going to do for the Buddhists? The Buddhist "bible" is over 200 volumes long when translated to English! (Which is one reason why I don't have one) What to Athiests do? Swear on nothing?

All it is, is a ceramony and replacing the props in it can get silly if we let it.

Jeremiah..."And that is why it is important for the Nation as a whole to vote for Christian government in order that we may be in God's Will"

what??? dude- lay off the bible it's interfering with your reality in Democracy.
-----

Gozer let me let you in on a little secret- i was in the US military...guess what i did NOT have to swear allegiance to when i swore in? yes- a god of any kind. Now put that in the poitical pipe of holy wars and smoke it.

Beautiful that the military is wise enough to eradicate para-theoligical forced choices of any religion. They seperate church and state. (or until this recent hoopla on video tape at the pentagon). oh well...can't be all guts and no glory :-)

Opponent, once again you miss my point. It's all well and good that the military in their traditions do not swear to god. That's fine. More power to ya. That's the way they set it up and I'm perfectly happy with that.

All I'm saying is that it's all hoopla over a traditional ceramony. Sure there's symbolism in it, but it only means as much as you want it to. Christians might care and take seriously the idea of swearing on the Bible, an Athiest could care less. But that's just the way the ceramony goes.

georgia,

ah, but pagan democracy excluded as much as 80% of the population from participation. it took the Christian concept of all of us being equal in the eyes of God to make universal suffrage comphrehensible...and then, right after we got to that Christian understanding, along came the likes of rousseau and bentham to think humans should only be counted, not weighed. and that brings me to this:

morris,

i don't think we can undo adult suffrage - though if we had some sense the franchise would be restricted, at least, to those who aren't dependent on government for 50% or more of their income. some people are upset that half the people don't vote - me? i'm glad that people who eatch daytime tv are very under-represented at the voting booth...just irks me to think that my considered vote may be cacelled out by an ignoramous who is voting based on television ads.

Posted by: Jeremiah at December 22, 2006 11:57 PM

Jeremiah, excellent post! I agree with all 3 comments. Well said!
:)

Merry Christmas

Here is some helpful reading. I hope that at least one of yall will check it out.

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/

Steve,
Can you explain to me why research shows that every other atheist has lost a parent or child at a young age? My theory is this. Most people without such a traumatic event in their childhood are drawn to believe that our world is based on some cosmic order. It is our schematic sense that even though some bad things happen to good people, there is still order in the world. For an atheist with such an early loss as they are learning to make meaning in this world, they incorporate that loss into their semantic labels for this world. Think of shemata as direct experience of this world and think of semantic as the way we label and think of this world.

It's true, there are others like me who based their faith on the way I thought about this world, and when my idea of God no longer matched the way I thought about this world, it was easier for me to let go of my idea of God than to change the way I thought. I was of course mistaken, but it took me several years to figure out the reality of the unseen was more relevant to me than the way I thought of this world.

The great liberal contradiction is how they want kids in schools to be on anti-depressants and ADHD meds according to the authority of the school counselor, but they don't want kids to be fed the "opiate of the masses" that research shows leads to significant positive effects. For those in the cheap seats, that means those who accuse the religious of being blind to reality are actually the ones who choose to ignore research that doesn't fit into their intolerant perspective.

CE writes:
"As poverty has radicalized Islam for 1400 years, so it would be with Christendom."

Research in Palestine actually shows that higher level of education is correlated with more support of Islamic militants. So you may want to reword this to the effect of higher disparity between their potential level of employment and actual level of employment (as research shows these radicals tend to be underemployed). But you will have some splainin' to do to the libs who insist that there is a great mass of underemployed people in America because if your hypothesis were true, they would be taking up guns against the USA.

Opponent,
The state is different in Iran and Saudi Arabia because the religion is different. This is why they teach in schools that killing infidels of any religion but Islam will be rewarded in Heaven. This is how the thinking/meaning-making processes of these children get distorted into believing that killing Christians and Jews is okay because such people are evil.

And as Bush says, a free and open society is the way they may learn a different way of thinking about the world so that they come to tolerate others rather than believing them to be the cause of all their problems. This intense victimhood and abdication of responsibility is what the Left clings to by blaming Bush for every death in Iraq, so much like the wifebeater who says "You called the police, and if the police hadn't come I wouldn't have hit you," ignoring the fact that the it was the wifebeater hitting his wife that led to the police being called.

Personally, I'm not sure what more is implied by more than swearing allegiance to the Constitution. But if it may do more by swearing on a book that's sacred to them, so much the better. The oath they take is not made more binding unless it is so. That is, swearing on the Bible hasn't kept all servants of the Constitution from breaking their vows. What the Constitution stands for is relevant only if it's relevant, and I think the ceremony has significance as a reminder and recognition of that significance.

There used to be such a thing as a trial by ordeal, the idea that God's will becomes apparent in times of difficulty. If my idea of God is consistent with the reality of the unseen, then it would survive a trial by ordeal, so God's will becomes more apparent with more experience. I continue to believe that if the way I see things is different from the way things actually are, and if it is so for others, we will come to a more whole picture of God and reality as they are.

It is my experience which resists your idea of a space and time dependent thought system in the sense that implies more than empathy. That is, we can come to understand how a person growing up in Nazi Germany would participate in Holocaust. We can recognize that such a belief does not imply such people should be punished or burn in Hell for eternity.

But it makes more sense to say whatever I believe at this moment has meaning than it does to say nothing I believe at this moment has meaning, because we are by our nature creatures who create meaning. That is, I can believe that I should believe. In this way, it's unlike the Buddhist idea that attachment is a bad thing because this idea cannot be applied to itself, or else a person would not be attached to the idea that attachment is a bad thing. Love on the other hand can be consistently applied. I can love the idea that I can love. I can be compassionate to the idea that I should be compassionate. On the other hand if I hate, then eventually I will hate the idea that I should hate, so it runs up against itself.

To deny the significance of an idea based on its place in space and time, likewise, runs up against itself. It becomes insignificant as an idea because it doesn't stand up to its own criticism. That is, it doesn't hold up to its own experience because its dismissed as just one more idea dependent on space and time. If it were a reliable and functional idea, it would hold up under its own scrutiny.

...not 1 race or 1 color or 1 sex or 1 financial status- whoa! the far right! ouch

Opponent, this and your subsequent, poory-typed posts have provoked further thought. Now I think you're an idiot. Ouch!

Mark-

Ah, but you forget, when this great nation of ours was founded, a very similar situation to the pagan democracies' disenfranchisement existed. Remember that when our nation was founded, the ability to vote was reserved for land owning, white males. In fact, the times where Christianity had the most influence on the Government, the fewest people could vote. Remember when black slaves only counted for 3/5 of a person and couldn't even cast their own partial vote? Christianity and the Bible were used to justify that and slavery itself.

In fact, slavery is permitted and condoned in the Bible (Lev. 25:42-46)... does that make slavery a Judeo-Christian institution? Or are you going to throw the semantic argument that the New Testament cancels out the Old Testament (though slavery is given a nod in Ephesians 6:5-9)?

In fact, the teachings of Jesus uphold a lot of the social structures and institutions that were present at the time. Men and women weren't held as equals (Ephesians 5:22), people were told to pay their taxes (Matthew 22:21), and, as mentioned before, slavery was permitted.

So, "all men are equal" as a Christian concept only applies to heaven. People were told to respect Earthly governments and institutions, knowing that in the end/Heaven, all were equal.

So... Democracy, or any type of real social reform, isn't exactly condoned by the Bible (it isn't really prohibited either). In fact, it was during times of great secular influence (the dreaded 1960's) that voting rights were guaranteed to Blacks and 18 year olds were given the vote.

I'm not saying that Democracy is antithetical to Christianity, or vice versa, but you give Christianity too much credit.

Morris: "And as Bush says, a free and open society is the way they may learn a different way of thinking about the world so that they come to tolerate others rather than believing them to be the cause of all their problems."

you mean like Bush and the right wing nuts prech? gee seems to me one and the very same theology- just a different name.

BTW Morris- also your first para in that post: doesn't that tell you something? like keeping religion out of state affairs is a good thing? wow! not a new idea here.

Whitey Cristian wrote: "Opponent, this and your subsequent, poory-typed posts have provoked further thought. Now I think you're an idiot. Ouch!"

gee smudge nuts- if you are going to attack my spelling please attack your own FIRST. For an ass clown you sure are not a great speller- the word is "poorly" i think.

But again just like W- it's called projection. Rightys are good at it. Preach something yet do another.

Morris- if your and W's right winged version of Free and open Society is so parralel to the islamic facisim...you know what? i'll choose the islamic fascism. Want to know why?

BECAUSE THEY AREN't HIDING IT!!!! they leave it out in the open. I'd rather join the evil doers THAT ADMIT IT rateher than join THE EVEIL DOERS of BUSH and your kind that hide their same agenda.

At least the ghidists of the muslim sort have the balls to admitt their agenda rather than cowardly hide it like the NAZI rightys

Opponent-

Wow... you really are stupid; you know that? The fact of the matter is that no matter how much of a nanny state the right wants to build, it won't ever be able to be as bad as the open violence and persecution that is present in Palestine, Iran, or how it was under Taliban controlled Afghanistan. If you are so sure that you want to live in one of those places, I would buy your plane ticket if I didn't have severe moral objections to sending a person that I didn't know to their certain death...

Frawg- that's my point exactly- THEY are open about their killing and religious agenda. W and the far right just hides their secret aganeda. Same agenda- it's all a holy war.

But no thanks on the offer. Being an American and a verteran i prefer the fact that aside from the throws of W and his kin that America has hope. Just might be a while to pay off the financial tab and social tab as well.

georgia,

the franchise, though, has always been more widespread in the us than in any pagan democracy...and you should keep in mind that counting slaves as 2/3 of a person was an anti slavery measure...slaveholders wanted them counted as whole persons so they'd have more house representation without having to worry about all that voting, etc.

as for christian sanction - well, slavery was pretty general in world history and thus it is no surprise that there was no move in Christian theology to ban slavery when Christianity was founded...after all, the purpose of Christianity is to save your soul, and thus it is really rather trivial if you spend 80 years as a slave but wind up with eternity in heaven. You should also keep in mind that it was specifically deeply believing Christians who first came up with the idea that slavery, as a thing, was morally incorrect...this stemming from our ever better understanding of how God wants us to behave. And slavery really became bad in the US when religion was more and more excluded from an active role in government and thus there started to be harsh secular laws about slavery in the US to replace the much more lenient Christian customs on slavery (Christianity had always held that slaves were never to be abused or in any way treated cruelly - they were, after all, the equal to their masters in the sight of God...it wasn't a command of Christianity which had slaves whipped until the skin was ripped from their backs, or that young, attractive slaves would be sent to brothels...).

we have democracy for our own protection, but not because its really all that good a way to run things...in this Christianity is simply realistic about humanity...much more realistic than the liberal/left, who presume that if they can just write the human law the right way, things will come out splendidly.

Freedom1,

Thanks!
Merry Christmas!
:)

Jeremiah

Georgia Frawg,

You see, It is better to want to be a servant for Jesus Christ, than to be a slave to the world.

For to be a slave to the world, would be equal to eternal damnation.

And to be a Servant to the Lord, means to be eternally happy......Praise His Holy Name! Forever and Ever.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah

yeah- tell that to all the Jews that took the hit in Germany.

yeah- tell that to all the Jews that took the hit in Germany.

Opponent,

You don't understand!

I'm not talking about slavery to an earthly master!
That is a horrible thing to say the least!

What I'm saying is this, that it is a choice to do either be spiritually secure and follow Jesus Christ or be eternally lost and in eternal torment.

It's a choice, and that choice is left entirely to you.

Thus, Slave to the world - meaning a clinging to the world in the presumption that there will be no after life, thus, a meaningless existence.

Servant to Jesus Christ - meanining; you want to serve the One and only who Created and loves you.
and be with Him throughout all of eternity in happiness, your eternal reward.

Jeremiah

Wow... you really are stupid; you know that? The fact of the matter is that no matter how much of a nanny state the right wants to build,...

You're just as stupid, Frawg, although your writing is easier to understand. We on the right aren't trying to create a nanny state; we're trying to tone down the nanny state created by LBJ's "Great Society."

Yeah, Opponent, everyone makes an occasional misspelling or a typo. You, however, make a career out of posting crap at a third-grade level.

Who knows, maybe you're 10 years old...

Mark it wasnt 2/3...

Whitey- but you atacked me for it...thats a pretty lame thing to do if your going to f' it up yourself. shows how tollerant you are of yourself. Accepting your hypocracy that you want to attack- gee i wonder if that trend exist elswehere in your dementia?

Toadie-

There is a saying, not sure how old it is, that goes, "The Democrats want to control your wallet, and the Republicans want to control your morals."

It makes sense, when you think about it... Democrats love spending tax money on lavish social programs that aren't really needed; Republicans like dictating things like how you can have sex (sodomy laws) and legislating Judeo-Christian morals (which you might not disagree with).

Democrats are less of a "nanny" than a prodigal financial advisor. Republicans are more "nanny-esque", at least in my opinion. I mean, both are kind of nit-picky about what you say (Dems. with their overprotectiveness of minorities and Repubs. with their Christian/dissent soft-spot), so that kind of cancells out. Pretty much, the main difference is one wants to control your money, and the other wants to control how you act.

Either way we get screwed...

Frawg- that's the best thing i heard all day. Thanks.

but that also tells the tale of the fiscal conservitive dissent from W. way tooooooooo much control of wallets and morals!

Georgia Frawg,

I want to comment to what you said in your 9:46 post but first I want to make a comment on what I believe is meant as democracy:

Democracy to me, is meant for the Majority as a whole, and not individual states, but all states combined, coming in agreement as to a National government and consensus leadership wise, striving toward the goal of making the right choices, for America, decision wise, nationwide.

I believe wholeheartedly, and always will, that the Founders left us those right choices, because they were God fearing, they new they could not go it alone without the help of Amighty God, Just like little David, who slew Goliath, He said, "the battle's not mine Lord, I give to you" paraphrasing, and in the same manner, we fought the very same battles in the very same circumstances as he did, and much greater battles during colonial times, and one, probably the worst battle in human history, the Civil War, and here we are today my friend. How did we do it? You need look no farther than the quotes from our Founders, of which many on the Liberal left side of the isle will no doubt use some words that try to discourage, but that does'nt change the facts, all the leftists do here, is divorce themselves from reality making fools of themselves to say the very least, and I have no interest in the slightest of arguing it with them, because I have researched and found far more evidence that supports the Founding Fathers as being the God fearing men that they truly were, and that's what I choose to stick by.

Why do leftist and the ACLU want to try and prove the Founders as unbelieving? Because they despise the very name of Almighty God, and His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior who are One now in Heaven.

Now to respond to your comment, Georgia Frawg-

You have the the ACLU which are a bigger part of problem in which you speak and who are the cohorts of the leftist, and who are mind you, responsible in a very grave way the destruction and undermining of our Constitution, and which are responsible for the movement that is called - Radical Individualist mindset. The ACLU will hear the complaints of the most abhorrent acts and disgraceful things one could ever imagine, and then take it through the Supreme Court, and override the Constitution, overriding the will of the American people mind you...

To be quite frank, the Constitution in my view was not meant to uphold things which are without a doubt too disgusting to describe on here, but unfortunately it's already happening, and will continue to happen, as long as the American people sit back and allow it. God help us all!

If I were faced with the choice and I'm sure that most other Christian Conservatives here will agree, that, the ACLU should be shut down, altogether, and that NO Liberal activist law giver judges shall have any authority or say what-so-ever. Only the decisions made by the American people will reserve the right to choose over the given choices regarding this country, and other States decisions shall be accordance and in line with the Majority of the Country as a whole, not individualy.
In my view, this would help to maintain a standard of decency and God fearing morality, as well as the financial aspects of government.

How would or will this turn out?

Well, It depends on how much influence the government has had in a good way in leading the country toward moral decency and so-forth, and how much the people in this Nation as a whole want to obey God's Laws. Right now, we have a Great Christian led government by George W. Bush, the Best President in History, the economy is good, many states have made Laws against Sodomy, which is Great, and I wish that we could make that the rule of the day for the whole country so to speak, It's up to the American people though. We need to protect the sanctity of Marriage between one man and one woman. There is only one way that America can have Hope, and that is by maintaining the Judeo-Christian line of faith, which strives toward the good and betterment of our society, and we must never forsake the name of Almighty God!, or else we open ourselves up and become vulnerable to other more evil and violent intolerant religions (i,e. Islam) which include many (i,e. buddhists, Hindus) that have no promise only dead idols, (or blind hope so to speak) and no promise of eternal destiny of happiness.

A Nation that turns it's back on Almighty God, will be brought asunder.

Wake up America!

Jeremiah

"A Nation that turns it's back on Almighty God, will be brought asunder."-by: Jeremiah

This is so true! God bless America!

Jeremiah- is that the same god that knowingly CREATED LUCIFER to alot for evil things to happen to us? is that the same god that instructs me to kill my children for cussing at me? for if it is i want nothing to do with that cruel of a deity. What a horrible lady this "god" is.

Freedom1- i know "god bless ameirca...and no other land!" yeah- football players have the same exclusivity when they score a touchdown. They thank god while obviously the other team is the evil doers or something. God was only on the scoring team's side apparently.

America- you know typing and typing well are not exaclty one and the same thing.

Opponent,

Rather simple minded view of God, you have there...Lucifer is a created being, as humans are, but also, like humans, a creature of free will. God didn't want automatons who would merely do his bidding like a computer does the bidding of its programmer...He wanted creatures who could volunteer to love God as much as God loved them. Of course, built in to any such creature is the possibility that they will choose NOT to love God. From what I understand, Lucifer was the first created being to rebel against God's plan - and after self-destruction, he seems to have made it his business to bring as many people as possible down with him as he can.

Of course, all of this was foreseen by God - and He called it good, and if you're of a mind to argue with God about his plans, then go right ahead...as for me, I accept my creaturely status and submit myself to God's will in the matter...it is good, and I'll just keep right on trying to live my life as God wishes (knowing, of course, that I'll fail miserably at it, but that in making the choice to love God, God will make me ever more worthy of His love...its why we say at Mass, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive Thee, but only say the word, and I shall be healed").

To go on a bit - a football player can rightfully thank God for his touchdown and, no, that doesn't mean that God thinks the other players are evil and thus deserve to lose...but God did gift the player with his abilities and the player took that gift, developed it as he was supposed to, and then performed the best he could...and he's a wise player, he did that performance to the greater glory of God. As for the team that had the touchdown scored against it - it could very well be that some, or even all, of those players on the team need a lesson in humility, or perhaps sportsmanship (maybe the team is riven by faction and the players are out there for themselves, rather than for the good of the team?). You and I don't have an xray machine which can look into the souls of our fellows and see what is good, what is bad and, more importantly, what is exactly best calculated at this moment to make the person better, provided they are open to instruction at all. All I can say is that, taking my cue from the Imitation, I'll bless God for all that happens - the good, and the bad. Its not that God makes bad things happen (we do that, by our foolish choices), but that He allows bad things to be carried forward because (a) he gave us free will and (b) perils are often more instructive than delights to human being with the Fallen nature.

If I'm being profligate with my money, then God might allow someone to take that money away from me...so that I'll learn better how to use the resources God placed at my disposal. If I'm neglecting my family, I might have a series of family problems come up which demand my loving attention...so that I'll learn better to pay closer attention and thus be able to anticipate problems before they blow up into major issues. The goal, of course, is to make me into someone who can fit into his proper place in eternity where I will be 100% all of what I was created to be, and eternally delighted with it.

You should try to be less dismissive of Jeremiah - he's an enthusiastic young man who loves the Lord greatly; there is nothing there but a desire to have you go on the same journey he's on. And it is impossible to describe - but once you start on that journey, your life is massively better and its like you've got a fire of joy inside you which never gets extinguished (though it can burn low when we don't stock it by giving love away with both hands)...a poor, fallen and bedraggled creature you still will be once you make that vital choice, but with all the muck you will know that you have become something very different...and you will, step by step, become more and more healed of all the hurts of the world.

And you know, my belief is that even if you just toss off such a choice right now and think no more of it, the choice will have been made, and He will persist in getting you on the path...give it a try; nothing to lose, right?

Mark

It isn't so much that people are bad and good and act like that in office, so we tolerate those shortcomings of democracy, as it is that voters deliberately put in bad people. Remember when WJC was causght red -handed lying to his own people as well as Republicans? They responded with:"So what -he's our liar!" Notice the adoration for Hillary -the only time her own dislike her is when she pretends to suppport the war (good)however when she supports evil (abortion etc.) she is loved and a shoo in for office.

Mark- i know this topic could and has been argued for centuries. So I don't want to detract from your site to much :-)
But I am on the way out at the moment so i'll make 1 commnet on the 1st para you wrote:

The presumption to KNOW god's plan is as silly a claim as it is for me to claim god must be imperfect. I mean why would he/she/it need humans and some hamster cage called earth and the galaxy etc. to keep him/her/it companion? But that's what i question. I queation the meachincs of god not just the face value.

But again for me to question and assume i know what thoughts or plans god had is as sily as a subscriber to claim they know what god was thinking.

I just think it a horrible thing to creat some hamsters, then cage them, then put them through a test to PROVE their faith and worthiness to sit at my side. All the while these hamsters have to avoid the torment, the pain, the wrath of satan (somewhat of a snake tossed in the hamster cage).

I would not treat a pet hamster that bad. But the notion of GOD dominating us just for kicks (or companionship if you prefer) is s sick joke. God's imperfection inherent in her loneliness is problematic. if not abusive and in sick taste.

any way i am heading out the door. And don't want to eat up the board's time and energy on this perpetual topic. Just to be thoughtful of you and the blog.

(Christianity had always held that slaves were never to be abused or in any way treated cruelly - they were, after all, the equal to their masters in the sight of God...it wasn't a command of Christianity which had slaves whipped until the skin was ripped from their backs, or that young, attractive slaves would be sent to brothels...)

Nice feel-good pap, Noonan. Too bad your Bible disagrees. Just two quotes out of many:

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
-Exodus 20:20-21

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."
-Leviticus 25:44-45

A lot of emphasis on people as property there--not exactly shining examples of equality. Also, it's nice to know that you can beat the crap out of your slave and not be in violation of Biblical law as long as the slave doesn't die from the beating. Slavemasters, start punching! God said it's OK!

As for "young, attractive slaves sent to brothels"...you do know what a concubine is, yes? I mean, that word is all over the place in the Bible--all sorts of people have them. Including "god's people." Hmm....

Opponent,

Just one small point: caged hamsters is a sophomoric viewpoint. God could either make us with free will, or He could make us without it - He choose to make us with free will, and we fell by voluntary choice. He could have immediately corrected humanity after the fall, but to take away the result of our choice would be to take away the choice, and thus make us creatures without free will. When we say we are children of wrath, this is what we're talking about.

The primary consequence of our ancestral fall is that we die - but God made us to live forever, and live a life far more real and abundant than anything we can imagine. We have to un-fall, as it were, in order to have what God intended for us to have - the mechanism He uses to do this is to sacrifice Himself, as a man, for the sins which man voluntarily choose. He wants us out of here and with Him forever - but we have to choose to go.

Opponent,

I have only a couple things to say to you, so I'll make it short.

You are on your way out alright!

But I leave you mostly with this:

"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God"

Jeremiah

Sees,

The New Testament is a bit more operational for me:

"Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven." 1 Tim 6:1

Christianity is concerned with your eternal salvation; your particular circumstances here on earth are trivial in comparison to what God wants for you if you'll just choose Him.

Mark: "Just one small point: caged hamsters is a sophomoric viewpoint. God could either make us with free will, or He could make us without it - He choose to make us with free will, and we fell by voluntary choice."

Mark, one problem inherant to that argument- IT's NOT FREEWILL. Thinkit is as you wish, but it's either God's way or the highway. You either do as he says or your out of the club. That's not really fair and loving if you ask me. it is, however, the membership of an exclusive club. A forced choice if you will. Not FREE WILL by any means. I've had aenough philo classes to run circles around that free will theoligical misnomer.

Opponent,

So, God should create you and then ensure that all is hunky dory for you even as you deliberately and with malice aforethought do things you know are wrong? Or is it that God should make the entire universe fit your personal desires? Or do you just want to be a receptacle of happiness who is just "happy, happy/joy, joy" all day long without any thought or developement? What you seem to desire is something that is, well, rather short-sighted and extraordinarily selfish.

God made you for eternal life - you will live forever, that much is absolutely assured to you...but where will you live? That is your choice. I understand fully the desire to have some privacy, to have some corner of the self that is entirely and without question my own...but what part of your existence did you create entirely on your own? There is nothing that you can see, touch or taste which is entirely of your own creation - given that you have nothing of your own, why should you have some existence entirely on your own?

There is a reason why we say call Him, "Lord"; because He is the Lord of all creation...He made it; it is His. Once you make something entirely on your own, then that can be yours - outside of that, you are just using what has been lent to you by your Lord.

You will, between now and the time your life on earth ends, decide where you want to be - you can either submit to your Lord and thus live a far more real life than you've ever thought possible here on this world...or you can try to be as gods, and live for yourself...but in so doing you will cut yourself from the source of your life. You will shrink, and become a mutilated thing...God won't have done it to you: you will have done it to yourself, because you didn't want to just give up on your self just a little bit...just that acknowledgement that what you have is a gift from Another...who, by the way, loves you entirely and wants you to be entirely happy for no charge and forever...but your happiness is entirely dependent upon you tapping into the joy of your Lord; there is no other happiness...you can't get it anywhere else because there is no other source of it.

AMrk it's just a belief that's the problem. A belief is just that...a belief. it i in no way- KNOWLEDGE. Matter of fact i typically hold that ALL people are AGNOSTIC weather a-theist or theist. Meaning no matter what one subscribes to, it is imposible to know a god exists.

This leaves me with this: since all are agnostic, why would i have belief in something un-verifiable?

I can beleive all day it is raining, but unless i go out and verify it, my beleif is un-known. But no matter how much i beleived it was raining it wasn't. Verification is the only way to KNOW. You can't know by just believing.

And the truth is i don't mind people BELIEVING in something that is unverifiable. I just couldn't imagine living my life that way. I think it somewhat lunatic to beleive in something like a myth. If i lived my life on beleif i would be a gambler and bet all the time BELEIVING i would win. That is what beleif really implies to me. Expecting an outcome that really is irrational.

And yes, with my semi science background, i have to say science has its limits. It is limited by the ability of our minds. We only measure in terms of speed of light, as we know of nothing faster. Our tools only can test and measure by our limits. So inherantly science is not flawed but genuinelly limited. But science does take investigation as the basis for knowledge. The scientific method is all about investigate and collect the information, not speculation. As i can speculate all day, but if the guy next dorr can not repeat and verify my hypothesis then it simply is worthless.

Any way science requires a faith- but one that is derrivitave of investigation, rather than story telling. Ther is a great difference among the two. One is fairy tale and the other a limited scope of things near and far around us. I suppose the skeptics had a good grasp on things LOL

sorry- Mark- my typos are pretty sucky.

From Thomas Paine:??All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.??I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.??It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive any thing more destructive to morality than this???Thomas Paine: American Revolutionary and patriot.

Born-again Christians? Our Founders? Absolutely not. They were enlightened, and that's why we have a great foundation for a country. If we let religion get involved (thus allowing the crimes Mr. Paine warned of), we'll pay the price - just like every other thology-based government/culture in the history of man.

I heard an interesting comment this weekend which may be germain even if a little "sound bite-ish". It came from a long time catholic who has very few years left and is now questioning some long held beliefs. "Without religion there would still be good people in the world doing good things and bad people doing bad things It takes religion to make good people do bad things.

Opponent,

Knowing what is not verifiable is, at first glance, a difficult thing - and I think that no one, other than perhaps a few saints, gets past the difficulty. I can tell you all the live long day that I know God exists...but I can't have you experience the immediacy and intimacy of my personal knowledge that God is, indeed, right there, right now, wanting me to do the right thing, and always willing, should I ask, to help me do the right thing.

You will have to walk down your path in life and make your own choices - I pray (really, just now) that you will find the right path and that Our Lord will guide you to Him, by whatever means are most likely to gain your acceptance (for me it was an odd set of circumstances, ending up with a protestant minister...and that got me back to being Catholic of a most orthodox character). I'll only offer two bits of advice: if you haven't read "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis, then do so; don't shut your mind against possibility - be genuinely open minded.

Aztec,

Too bad that man has grown cold and cynical towards the end - I hope a bit of love gets into his heart to correct the problem.

As it is, people who are bent on evil will use whatever means come to hand; religion among them. But nothing outside of the individual human heart ever causes evil...it is always a human being deciding to do evil.

Mark,
I gave you the wrong impression of the situation. Actually the opposite is true. This woman has been very opinionated and intolerant for the 30 years I have known her. She now is becoming much more open in heart and mind. Several years ago her husband got (it that is the word) Alzheimers. They were devout Catholics all their 55 married years. She is learning and experiencing new ideas because, as she says, now she can. For 50+ years She had this tunnelvision view of the world. You either agreed with her or you were wrong. She now is much more accepting and open. Due to her past intolerant and stubborn nature, she had alienated most of her family. She in now renewing relations with children and grand-children. She can accept her gay grandson and others she used to condemn. In every cloud there is a silver lining and her new open heart and open mind are what she gained when she essentially lost her husband. This has reconnected her with many family members. It is sad that her husband is debilitated but she wants to go on living and learning.

I'm lost with this Aztec

"Without religion there would still be good people in the world doing good things and bad people doing bad things It takes religion to make good people do bad things."

I intrepret this the same way one would this statement: "Does the act of taking a human life prevent another human from the act or is it the fear of going to prison for the rest of their life?"

Believe it or not, this question was asked in one of my classes early on and you would not believe the idiots that said prison.

As a God fearing person, I know that there is almost a sixth sense regarding that love of God and only when one opens one's mind and heart to that sense and accept it for the overall good that it is, one will never know how good it really is.

Anyone can go around quoting scripture, but the true Christian does not put on airs or try to drive his opinion down another's throat.

It sounds like this woman may have lived in a male dominated oppressive dictatorship where she, as the weaker spouse most likely caved to the alpha syndrome in order to save her marriage.

Navydad,
My original post was not intended as an ultimate truth but something to provoke thought, which it apparently has. The husband in this situation was actually a very nice, personable man from my encounters. By far the less assuming of the two. Maybe she is just mellowing with age.
That is pretty scary that some people think that they don't kill others because of the threat of prison. I know I wouldn't commit murder with or without that threat.
I'm now wondering if a strict religious intolerance could actually cause a rift in family relations when the goal would be family unity?
Personally I have a very close family albeit not very religious. We have large multi-generational get togethers every holiday and birthdays with virtually no bickering or friction. We go on summer vacations with family members. I wonder how this would change if some members were heavily religious. Would my gay nephew be accepted? Food for thought.