What's interesting in all this is that a bunch of these folks are Catholic. Kennedy, Biden and Durbin come immediately to mind. Another thing I notice as I wander this earth, are the number of supposed Catholics that are ardently pro-abortion.
Kind of like bizzarro world.

No true Catholic is pro-abortion. The problem is that the more lukewarm Catholics, who are fervently in the Democratic party, look for excuses about why their pro-choice opinions are defensible. That may convince those who are not Catholic and salve their consciences, but there is no precept of greater importance than the right to life in Catholic theology, with the right of the unborn at the top of the heap. Arguments about the death penalty, war, etc. are far below that of abortion on the Catholic scale of morality. There is no ambiguity here. You cannot be a true practicing Catholic and be pro-choice. Not possible.

Anti-Catholic? No way. How things have changed.

Poppycock: A chronicle of the stupidest things ever said

Porter, I know a number of Catholic Democrats who can't even vote Democrat while holding their noses any more, at least not at the national level, but that's not the only interesting thing about this. The Donks also honestly believe that they represent the mainstream of American thought and values, in spite of the fact that they no longer control the legislative and executive branches of government. They live in an alternative universe, and my only hope is that they never wise up. Now if we can just win back control of the courts and the educational system, liberals will have to compete on the merits of their ideas or perish.

Hogwash!

Spook, I think you can rest easy on any "wising" for our opposition; up, down or sideways.

I don't think the anti-Catholic foundations here are very strong. As some noted, some of these cats ARE Catholic, nominally anyhow. Demographically, I would be a stereotypical Dem activist and atheist to boot but even I know life, while not commencing at conception, is also not commenced after half the baby is delivered; the late trimester system was one I would support though if introduced as legislation NOT imposed by the courts.... well, any one of those propositions would get me the Alito treatment. It's not that these folks are bigotted in the sense Mark asserts but that PRO abortion must trump any and all other considerations. Of course that is bad enough.

What's interesting in all this is that a bunch of these folks are Catholic. Kennedy, Biden and Durbin come immediately to mind.

The Pope should ex-communicate them. How do we get a grassroots movement started? Kerry's another abortion-lover that's supposedly Catholic. They ALL should be booted from the church.

I don't think conservatives, Catholic or otherwise, are going to gather sympathy as victims. Those senators who wish to usurp the Constitutional Power of the President to appoint Judges can be stuck on stupid without being bigots! Senators may advise, and possibly withhold consent, if an unqualified person is nominated. But they do not have the right to choose a candidate based upon their own political leanings. That power belongs to the President.
If Senators really are principled, let them introduce legislation, as is their responsibility within the Constitution. Let them go on record for taking private property from one citizen and giving it to others to satisfy special interests instead of standing behind the skirts and robes of the court.

"This is anti-Catholic in the sense that our Democrats assert, by this vote, that to be a Catholic is to make oneself a person incapable of ruling justly upon the law."

A catholic is perfectly able to set his religious views aside and rule on the law. And someone who is not a catholic is perfectly able to have an incorrect ideology of the law. The complaints don't have to do with his religion, but his ideology of the law.

Shortz,

What we know of Alito is that he is well-liked, well-respected and has a long history of ruling upon the law in cases brought before him - no one can have any indication of how he may rule on some hypothetical future case. We can only presume that as he has throughout his judicial career, he will rule upon the law. And yet all 8 Democrats on the committee voted against him. Why? And I mean, REALLY why?

Because Alito is a devout Catholic, the Democrats are saying that he is certain to rule against Roe...they are saying that he can't separate his Catholicism from his judicial role and thus must be barred from the Court. This is bigotry - this is saying that Catholics are incapable of ruling upon the law BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLICS.

It has been pointed out that the Catholic Roberts was approved by some Democrats - but that was in a replacement of a conservative jurist...now we see the fat in the fire; as long as its just chaning one conservative for another, the left will let that slide...but let a conservative replace a non-conservative, and that must be stopped...and must especially be stopped when its a Catholic. Thus this time there were no approving votes from Democrats on the committee...and if we get even 5 Democrats on the floor voting for Alito, I'll be surprised. And we know that if, God forbid, we needed to replace Ginsburg next year and President Bush sent up another conservative Catholic, then the left would be demanded he be stopped SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THAT FACT.

The confirmation of Judge Alito is vital to the defense of the American Way of life.

"Because Alito is a devout Catholic, the Democrats are saying that he is certain to rule against Roe"

They're right. Do you think he'll vote against Roe?

"...they are saying that he can't separate his Catholicism from his judicial role and thus must be barred from the Court."

Where are they saying this? You're just making this up. They're against his vote on Roe, whether that's because he's catholic and lets that interfere with his judging, or because he has a judicial ideology against Roe, or whatever.

The defense of abortion has turned the Democratic Party into a Party of anti-Catholic bigots. There is other bigotry in there, too, but as a Catholic I am just bringing up my part of it...you evangelical Christians and orthodox Jews can draw your own conclusions."

I'm Baptist. Most of my friends go to church with me. Most of them vote Democrat, too. Some of my favorite people are Catholics. Once again, Mark's fanatical hyperbole muddies the waters and kills any chance of real discussion.

shortz,

You can't know that - I'm a conservative Catholic, and I don't know how I'd rule if a Roe case came before me. I believe that Roe was a badly decided case, but before I throw it out I'd want to be sure I was on unscotchable legal grounds (at least in a judicial role...I think we can legislatively overturn Roe, but that is a different animal altogether).

What you are implying - and it is highly bigoted of you to imply it - is that a conservative Catholic WILL NOT rule based upon the law as it comes to abortion.

You really need to think about that - you are making a religious test for office.

To comment on Marks last post about making religious a test for the SCOTUS its unfortunately true. Its all about separation of church and state for the Left It has nothing to do with the law or with qualifications its all about the possibility that someone on SCOTUS might actually rule about relgion based on the law and allow public displays of religious symbols and such.

"You can't know that - I'm a conservative Catholic, and I don't know how I'd rule if a Roe case came before me. "

Forget you. Forget Catholic. How do you think alito will vote ? Do you seriously have no idea?

"I believe that Roe was a badly decided case,"

So you have a non-catholic reason? hrm... yet opposing you would still be anti-catholic?

"What you are implying - and it is highly bigoted of you to imply it - is that a conservative Catholic WILL NOT rule based upon the law as it comes to abortion."

I'm explicitly saying that there are other reasons besides being catholic to vote against Roe. One could believe it is not correct that the constitution contains a right to privacy, for example. I doubt alito takes his jurisprudence from his religion. He has a developed jurisprudence.

You're trying to smear your critics. And also, play very naive -- do you seriously not know how alito will rule on Roe?

"You really need to think about that - you are making a religious test for office."

No. Just a jurisprudence one. Do you understand the difference? Have you grown up since we talked about economic statistics and you talked about your own world?

shortz,

You're adding insult to your emergent bigotry.

And you can't know how Alito will rule...last I checked, mind-reading was BS. If you've worked out how to do it, then I think we should put you on TV.

Dodge all you want, but you don't want Alito on the Court because he's a conservative Catholic and you think that he will rule against Roe simply because of that fact.

"Dodge all you want, but you don't want Alito on the Court because he's a conservative Catholic and you think that he will rule against Roe simply because of that fact."

Mark, Alito being catholic has nothing to do with his opposition. Him being conservative does. Nice religion-baiting.

"And you can't know how Alito will rule...last I checked, mind-reading was BS."

I'm not sure. No. But I can guess. Which way would you guess?

"Dodge all you want, but you don't want Alito on the Court because he's a conservative Catholic and you think that he will rule against Roe simply because of that fact."

Why do you think it has to do with religion? I don't like his jurisprudence? He said in memos that roe should be overturned. He didn't say it was because of his religion. I don't care why he does it. Just that he's wrong.

shortz,

Do try to understand: there is probably a memo around here somewhere stating that I'm of the opinion that Roe should be overturned but that does not mean that if I were put on the Court that I'd automatically search out the first plausible excuse for overturning Roe.

If you've got a memo showing my views on Roe but also a life time of legal and judicial experience of ruling upon the law, then your presumption would have to be that if a Roe case came before me, that I'd rule on the merits...after all, if we go back through Alito's career we'll probably find him ruling repeatedly on the law even if as a Catholic and/or conservative he'd rather have a different outcome.

Not one Democrat on the Committee came out with the opinion that Alito is an honest man, a good American and a good judge and thus would rule upon the law...it was an insult, and it was more deeply an insult to Catholics and, indeed, all religious believers.

Mark, you have zero proof that his religion played a role in Dems voting against his nomination.

If anything, they voted against him because of his stance on presidential powers and, i think more likely, they didn't want history books to show him getting a 98-3 vote.

Get over your catholic persecution complex.

"Do try to understand: there is probably a memo around here somewhere stating that I'm of the opinion that Roe should be overturned but that does not mean that if I were put on the Court that I'd automatically search out the first plausible excuse for overturning Roe."

No it doesn't. Nobody knows the future for certain. Its not 'automatic.' And I'm not talking about certainties, but what I guess and expect.

Do you seriously have no idea how he will vote on Roe? No guess at all? Do all pro-lifers have no guess? I'm sure you have no idea how, say, judge reinhart, or even a potential justice clinton (either) would vote either?

"Not one Democrat on the Committee came out with the opinion that Alito is an honest man, a good American and a good judge and thus would rule upon the law...it was an insult, and it was more deeply an insult to Catholics and, indeed, all religious believers."

Again, you're the one that thinks there's something wrong with catholics. There are lots of ways that people can not follow the law.

This is from 2004 for, but it states that democrats had a slightly larger share of catholics than republicans.

And mark sits here and calls democrats anti-catholic bigots.

Mark, if i were you, i'd watch out for the pea-brain bigots.

http://www.catholicvote.net/issues/additional_resources/2004democrats.htm

look,these Dem senators on the committee are mostly the left of the left.i don't believe religion had much to do with it.this was purely political.if they vote for Alito they lose votes and money from leftwing groups.

Yea we are winning!!!!!!
We have the House, Congress, Senate and pretty soon the supreme court. No more checks and balances we can do what ever we want and no one can stop us. Beware of the the man on the white horse for he is dead and all of hell is behind him.

enjoy :-)

Tom,

That is from "Catholics for Free Choice" which is, sorry to say, a group which isn't at all Catholic...though they manage to sell the MSM that they are.

They advocate abortion and gay marriage, among other things.

From what I read post-election, a majority of Catholics voted for President Bush, and when you break it down by regular church-going Catholics, it was decisive for the Republican Party.

"They advocate abortion and gay marriage, among other things."

You think catholics aren't free to make up their minds on that? that's anti-catholic bigotry!

shortz,

A person who is Catholic can believe whatever he wishes...but if he believes some things, then he's not a Catholic anymore.

Believing that abortion should be legal or that homosexuals should be married in the eyes of God...well, that just doesn't cut the Catholic mustard.

"A person who is Catholic can believe whatever he wishes...but if he believes some things, then he's not a Catholic anymore."

Look, I'm not the one telling catholics what they are or can't be. I'm the one with the open mind about catholics. I'm not the one with the closed mind about catholicism here. I'm not the one telling people what religion they are or can't be.

But repeat again that i'm the anti-religion bigot.

shortz,

I do believe you are, even if you aren't recognising it in yourself. Also, don't feel too bad about it - anti-Catholicism is the oldest and most persistent form of bigotry in the United States...heck, even some of my evangelical Christian allies engage in it from time to time.

What it boils down to, shortz, is whether or not you believe that I, or any other devout Catholic, can fully participate in American government without de-facto turning our area of responsibility over to the Catholic Church? This is what the original fear in America about Catholics was all about - since the Holy Father is the head of an actual nation (back then the Papal States, these days Vatican City) it was held that no person who was Catholic could actually be loyal to America and American institutions. One of the things which resulted from this fear, oddly enough, is the public school system...designed, as it were, to prevent kids from being educated at Catholic schools.

You can try to dress it up as disputes over jurisprudence, but you've actually not got a jurisprudential leg to stand on - as far as Alito's record is concerned, he has scrupulously ruled upon the law. What you fear is that because he's Catholic, he might rule in a way you don't like...so you want this Catholic kept off the Court because he is Catholic.

"Believing that abortion should be legal or that homosexuals should be married in the eyes of God...well, that just doesn't cut the Catholic mustard."

Believe in preemptive war, you're no longer catholic.

whoopie, we're all not catholic.

Take your "you're not a real catholic" shtick and stick it where the sun don't shine. Didn't know you spoke for the pope.

The Democratic Party is anti-Catholic? Why do they both agree on the death penalty (for liberal Democrats nonetheless) and the Iraq War? Why were Catholics an integral part of the New Deal? Why is almost my entire Catholic family Democratic? If you are going to make a claim that a party is bigoted, have some evidence other than that Alito happens to be Catholic. I guess the Democrats are anti-Jersey, or anti-Princeton, or anti-people who's last name begins with A. Or anti-Italian, like Rick Santorum says.

No Catholic is better than any other, and if you can't see that get out of my religion.

"I do believe you are, even if you aren't recognising it in yourself."

We haven't yet gotten to the part where I'm raised in a catholic family.

"What it boils down to, shortz, is whether or not you believe that I, or any other devout Catholic, can fully participate in American government without de-facto turning our area of responsibility over to the Catholic Church?"

And I keep telling you that that's not whats going on. I'd love it if people like you took your teachings from the church on all sorts of topics. I loved the pope's encyclical on work, for example. Try reading it one day.

I don't think Alito's jurisprudence comes from his religion. I think it comes from somewhere else. And I think its wrong.

"You can try to dress it up as disputes over jurisprudence, but you've actually not got a jurisprudential leg to stand on - as far as Alito's record is concerned, he has scrupulously ruled upon the law."

Wrongly, I think.

" What you fear is that because he's Catholic, he might rule in a way you don't like...so you want this Catholic kept off the Court because he is Catholic."

You're just making this up. Do you think I fear that he will make the death penalty illegal? that I fear he will find against corporations and for workers? Against war and for peace?