You know, even if they were released I bet there'd still be plenty of folks who'd complain that they aren't doing enough to protect our civil liberties. I admit I am curious as to what the safeguards are, but I won't be holding my breath to find out what they are.

People hate bush because they are better judges of character than you. The left doesn't hate without warrant, we'll leave that up to your ilk. Where as you Mark; your hate for the left is unwarranted and a product of senseless bigotry. And your hate for the left and homosexuality and everyone who you think is blind will go down in history right next to racism.

"The problem with the critics - especially those on the left - is that they are afloat on a sea of hatred, and thus anything done by the Bush Administration is immediately considered evil - and will remain evil even after proven otherwise (I know full well that the left will discount this report - it doesn't fit a "hate Bush" storyline, and thus it will be denounced when it can't be ignored)."

The Democrats have not voted against everything Bush has done because they hate him. Many of them voted to go into war with Iraq, as you often like to cite. They also mostly agreed with Bush's major policy initiatives like No Child Left Behind and Bush's immigration plan. There goes your little theory about Bush hatred.

I think the problem is the opposite. The problem is that Bush's supporters are afloat on a sea of emotional investment in the success of the Republican Party. They refuse to question authority and completely disregard reality because they prize partisanship over country.

Let's give G. Gordon Libby a talk show! Let's give Ollie North a TV show! Let's get Tom Delay to endorse our book about corruption...about Democrats!!!

Blind hatred of an administration can result in a colossal waste of time that the American people strongly disagree with: exhibit A, Clinton's impeachment. The Democrats demands that wiretapping require warrants, especially considering the fact you can get a retroactive warrant, is not evidence of "blind hatred." But thanks for playing.

Gar Wood

G. Gordon Liddy - my bad.

Gar

One thing that I have come to realize ever since I've been talking to liberals here, is that...there will never be any apologies to any degree by any liberal/democrat no matter how deplorible or abhorrent the corruptness of their actions...It would in effect cause irrepairable damage to their oh so delicately "correct,balanced, agendas".

Never in history has there ever been a sadder state of affairs than what just happened to America three and a half weeks ago.

I was watching the new documentary aired by Heidi Hill last week, for the first time, "Obsession: the threat of radical Islam"........It was chilling just to sit there and watch those Devils chanting and screaming to their demonized leaders, and the things they were saying about our President and America, and all the other countries they hold contempt for!

To add to that, a few days ago I read, on the Thanksgiving thread here, what one person said "Now, let the war on the Christmans begin".... This is your leftist mindset, does'nt it strike you in the least bit that even our leftist seek the deepest contempt for the very same people that the terrorists seek to destroy, yet they won't apologize for saying something so crude as "Now, Let the war on the Christmans begin" and that's an American citizen speaking. It's very simple folks, our leftists are indeed, Terrorist apologists, because they HATE America not because of the riches and bounty that America holds, but because they hate the Christian people, they hate us because we acknowledge and are thankful for what God has given us in return for our thanks. God is the only reason we stand still today friend.

No man, I don't care who he is, cannot deny that God has blessed America!...Any man... that does deny that fact... is a fool... plain and simple.
Sadly, our liberals and democrats likewise are doing just that, they are slowly tearing America down, and turning her away from the True God of all the earth, You can see it happening, with every passing day that goes by, with every new generation of liberals that step in, a new generation is being taught by our liberal professors and scholars eventually replacing two-fold, the ones before them, some adding the muslim faith and it's history to their courses, not to mention being blinded by the contempt that muslims wish to put on American soil.

I know that my opinion isn't going to change anything by myself, but I will say this and this I believe whole heartedly.....
We need less liberal brainwashed shool teachers, and a lot more moral Christian teachers in America! That's all there is to it.

Something I find ironic, liberals talk with hatred in order to cause us to give hate back, and they love it, that's their way of pulling people into their evil mindset.

Now, more on topic here. No doubt the leftist liberals in this country seem very comfortable and without regard that we have muslim terrorist cells here in America, all the while not realizing that if they had their way(by not catching possible terrorist suspects through wiretapping) that the muslims in this country would unleash an all out attack to take control, not to mention persecuting any and all Christians putting us under sharia law, and then Islamo-fascists would team up with them, God only knows what America would have to go through then. But ya see, folks, to the democrats/liberal left it's not about responsibility and safety anymore, to them it's all about this "freedom of choice", and binding everybody down by the heavy chains of liberalism.

But when you take into account the freedom of "choice", you interject a lot of bad choices into the mix, in effect there's nothing too wrong or too abhorrent a practice, nothing too risky, which is what liberalism is all about, and if it does'nt meet the standard of liberalism then it's not allowed to stand i,e. A university I read about the policy was that no one was allowed to read the pledge in it's entirety due to God's name within it. Many students left the classroom, some wrote letters of vulgarity to the person, on top of this the person was expelled from the school forever.
Isn't it strange?!!! Whatever happened to the day when kids respected the pledge, when teachers taught them the essential ingredients for success and happiness???????????????????

Education has taken on a new twist, with muslims in the mix, ulike our pledge and prayers as Christians, they allow muslims(foreigners) to say their prayers aloud in OUR schools, bow to their god, and allow the muslim(terrorist) cells like there will be no tomorrow. pretending like nothing will ever happen.WEIRD!
They uphold profanity in court rooms, and every other contemptuous act toward America.

America is being blinded by the liberal propagandists, no doubt about it, November 7th can testify to that fact, you can be sure.

On a positive note, hopefully in a couple of years the American people will begin to see the light of day once again, and get back to and renew and revive her roots of moral relativism, that is my hopes and prayers!!!

Anyways, Mark, It all goes back to what you just said, the left floats on a sea of hatred, yes indeed.

I apologize for ranting so much, Mark.
I just wanted to write something this evening, I hope someone can get some meaning out of it.

Jeremiah

"A university I read about the policy was that no one was allowed to read the pledge in it's entirety due to God's name within it. Many students left the classroom, some wrote letters of vulgarity to the person, on top of this the person was expelled from the school forever.
Isn't it strange?!!! Whatever happened to the day when kids respected the pledge, when teachers taught them the essential ingredients for success and happiness????????????????????"

Should have been written like this:

A university I read about the policy was that no one was allowed to read the pledge in it's entirety due to God's name within it. [One Christian person chose to do otherwise and read it out very loud in front of the class because she was disturbed by the rule, but unfortunately was ridiculed for her respect for the pledge] Many students left the classroom, some wrote letters of vulgarity to the person, on top of this the person was expelled from the school forever.
Isn't it strange?!!! Whatever happened to the day when kids respected the pledge, when teachers taught them the essential ingredients for success and happiness???????????????????

Oops, left out that bit there.

Ah, NOW it's understandable.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah,

Paragraph after paragraph, you write about the destruction and future doom that Democrats and Muslims are inflicting on America. Then you end with this:

"Anyways, Mark, It all goes back to what you just said, the left floats on a sea of hatred, yes indeed."

Where was the part about Democratic hatred? All I saw was a lot of nonsense about the war on Christmas and Muslims wanting to take over America to impose sharia. Could you please cite to these controversial claims?

Jeremiah, I'm wondering if you have ever personally known any Muslims. How much contact have you had with them? What sort of relationship did you have?

Gar Wood

Mr. Wood,

I've never met a muslim in my entire life, and if I did I just did'nt know it.

But whether I know or have come into contact with any muslims is not the basis for my immediate judgement nor is it relevant...I cannot deny [facts] when they are laid straight before my eyes.

A good Christian person like I also blogs here, Just ask Freedom1 about the threat of muslims in America, I never knew this was such a dilemma until I first read Freedom1s posts about six months ago, He brings new information everyday regarding muslim extremism, along with all the recent months past news reports of the impending crisis with muslim(terrorist) cells on American soil and abroad, and that number a little over a billion of them, and growing with each passing day, really makes me shiver!...And like I said, the left is not concerned, they seem to be glad that muslims can continue to invade America, land of the free, and home of the Brave!!

It's got my full attention!!

You can't deny it! There's no way.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah:

I assume you are smart enough to know freedom1's quote are taken well and truly out of context, and that he only quotes what supports his beliefs.

but anyway, I have 3 questions for you.

a) Have you ever read the koran? if not why not?
b) have you ever heard of ireland? I will assume you have, so why do you focus on the bad things Muslims do and refuse to talk about christian groups like the ira?
c) if you have never spoken to a Muslim, how can you possibly judge them? Personally i would suggest you find a few Muslims to talk to and ask them what they think about the violence that takes place, I'm certain the result would surprise you.

just a few things to think about.

I know full well that the left will discount this report - it doesn't fit a "hate Bush" storyline, and thus it will be denounced when it can't be ignored.

If your story doesn't have a "hate Bush" motif, then you must be one of those "Bush cheerleaders", or so it seems.

If you hold your breath waiting for any lefty, and many other politicians as well, to admit that they were wrong about something, you are just about guaranteeing yourself death by asphyxiation.

I'll meet you half way. I'll apologize for jumping to conclusions and being under educated on the wiretapping if you'll apologize for being underinformed on WMD,Terrorist connections and the threat level Iraq posed to the US.

Jeremiah....A university I read ...

care to post a citation or at least the name of the university.... unless you can I will have to consider this an urban legend or a figament of someone's mind.

Uncite events like this can only be disgarded unless proof is offered!!!!

Mr. Golfer,

I encourage you to read the book "Slouching towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline" by Mr. Robert H. Bork, There is where you will find the citations over and over again, every last word of it true, A man who in my opinion has more wit and smarts than all the liberals in the United States combined in a nutshell, and a good moral man, who by all rights should be in our Supreme Court this very day, but what happened? Would'nt you know it, the liberals shot him down, he was too Christian, too much morals for their 'corrupt system' to survive.

It's a SICK SHAME, and it makes me really, really mad and angry, that they would do a good Christian moral man this way. All they do is lay around crawling on their bellies in washington doing NOTHING but coniving another plot against the Christian people, of how they can make the Christian more disadvantaged, Now that really makes me MAD!!

I'M SICK OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeremiah

"It's very simple folks, our leftists are indeed, Terrorist apologists, because they HATE America not because of the riches and bounty that America holds, but because they hate the Christian people, they hate us because we acknowledge and are thankful for what God has given us in return for our thanks. God is the only reason we stand still today friend."

No, I think you hate us, and that your very paranoid.

"Something I find ironic, liberals talk with hatred in order to cause us to give hate back, and they love it, that's their way of pulling people into their evil mindset."

No, that's what the Rightists do. Almost every post you and Mark do is hatred!

"Now, more on topic here. No doubt the leftist liberals in this country seem very comfortable and without regard that we have muslim terrorist cells here in America, all the while not realizing that if they had their way(by not catching possible terrorist suspects through wiretapping) that the muslims in this country would unleash an all out attack to take control"

Out of the 600 or so people taken in being a part of a terrorist cell, only 4 have been charged in the USA.

"binding everybody down by the heavy chains of liberalism."

Liberalism, Liberty, how can people be bound by liberty? What your saying doesn't make any sense.

I would make the quote from the book, but I don't have permission, It would be risky for me to do so, unless Mark says it's safe, then I can make the quote maybe!

Jeremiah

Kiwi's dhimmitude is duly noted. Islam is a violent death cult which seeks the domination of Earth. Here are a few current headlines to check out:

Thailand to close all 944 public schools in Muslim south due to arson, shootings

Fjordman: Is Islam Compatible with Democracy? part 1

Disembowelled, then torn apart: The price of daring to teach girls

The debate over Muslim separatism in the US

Out of the 600 or so people taken in being a part of a terrorist cell, only 4 have been charged in the USA.

Yeah, but what does that say about the other 1-10 thousand here in America? What does that say about the mindset of all of them combined?

Me personally, I believe all it would take is one of them to set the whole bunch off on a terror strike! That's why we need to outlaw the meetings between muslim communitites in America, or maybe even take the necessary security measures i,e. putting a surveillance team with interpreters inside the meetings taking place by muslims, because you can never be too safe!!

Liberalism, Liberty, how can people be bound by liberty? What your saying doesn't make any sense.

You confuse the two, Liberalism and Liberty are two totally different things - Liberty - the condition of those who are free and and independent or just plain good ol Freedom!

Liberalism - a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and individual freedom and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

Well, back in the day, that was probably true, let's say before '60's era anyhow, but today? No way, Why? Because ever since vietnam the left has had nothing but contempt and hate for America, leading to a frenzy of civil disobedience to student frenzy and the violence therein. We can attribute most of this to American citizens who were allowed to go to vietnam i,e. Jane Fonda, Gen. Ramsey Clark, John Kerry, who were Traitors and will remain Traitors to this day!

But despite all of that, for the most part the sixties ushered in the drugs movement, freedom of speech changed(hate speech now), schools have been ran-sacked with liberal professors who allow the students do whatever it is that pleases them, and on and on and on the list goes, of the decadence due to the cost that liberalism has taken on America and will take on America in the future provided that Americans remain en-tranced by the leftist propagandist.

It's not like it used to be anymore, no sir, a country that once believed in, trusted, and loved God, has now turned their very backs upon Him, and what a heavy price all have paid, even the innocent bystanders who were generous in their efforts toward pleasing God, Yes, the day of George Washington have long since passed.

The only thing now that will save America from the wrath of Liberalism, is for the Christian people to get back to their feet and proclaim God as the answer and cure, to the problems that face America!!!!

Jeremiah

"Liberalism - a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and individual freedom and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties."

So Liberty stands for everything Liberalism stands for, thanks for letting me clear that up for everyone.
Since you are the opponent to this, ever think what that makes you?

USA,

That was liberalism sixty some odd years ago or more. Can you not accept or see what harm it has done to our justice system?? Judicial activism - is that not bad for a society, which does'nt allow the democratic process to stay intact, does the will of the American people "not count" anymore??

Can you not see that the modern day liberalism allows the freedom of indecent exposure??

If liberals are so bent on affording the freedoms that keep democratic process going, then why do they not want to allow Christian majority the same rights as every other forms of religion that have invaded America??

How can some students be allowed to say the pledge and at the same time omitting the parts with God in it (One nation uder God), and yet others who wish to say the pledge in it's etirety are'nt allowed, and if they do they are expelled because of it, Is that freedom of speech? Is that what LIBERTY truly means?

Is everything acceptable other than the moral code of principles which lead to a meaningful existence? Such as a person who wishes to say foul language in a classroom, yet a person who wishes to mention the name of God in a kind and mannerly way is despised and ridiculed by other students, and scolded and reprimanded by teachers who allow the other students and their profanity to continue, considering every blasphemous word that comes out of the devils mouth who speaks with words without knowledge and dis-respect for humanity.

This is my whole point in a nutshell USA - Every person should be respected no matter who they are, and that's why we have laws against discrimination, but we must adhere to a moral set of principles, and only Christianity can teach that, because Jesus taught us everything we need to know about a life that would be pleasing to Him, and a life that would bring happiness to all walks of life!

Listen, You can go where you want to, eat what you want to, buy what you want to, we're the most free Nation in the world, but when setting a moral example, an exemplar of Christ, Why can't you?
In ending....Todays liberalism isn't what the dictionary tells us, or you say, by all means, No, Modern day liberalism, has taken the approach, in such cases where, people have been called down on(misdemeanors) for their bad behavior in a court of law and that person in turn, has taken the constitution.. just as it is... without regard to any moral tradition, turns it around in their favor, and thrown what good their is in it away giving it a new meaning... and the courts have fallen for such cases and agreed... thus, allowing any and all behavior to be held up in a court of traditional law... throwing any and all other situations that are contrary to the tradition of moral ethics into the mix... and that my friend... is the cold hard facts. You can refute them, but one day when you stand in the midst of the largest civil disaster of chaos that you have ever seen then and only then will see where I am coming from, but at that point there will be no turning back, no chance to change the course of events in favor of a standard of HOPE!! and I can tell as an eye witness we are fast, very fast approaching that day.

I waist my time talking to liberals like you, I know that...but all I want is hope for America, before liberalism has destroyed her, a once powerful nation of morally sound laws and justice.

So, I just hope you will wake up and see how blind you are to this irrefutable fact.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah

citing the university where this supposed took place would be quoting the book in the sense you imply...how do I know this is true unless I can verify it.

Jeremiah

With your religious outrage may I ask you a leading question. Your views of Catholics and more specific that of that Catholic organanation known of as The Knights of Columbus?

Mr. Golfer,

Just call Mr. Bork, and he'll get you the information. either way, you can choose to call me a liar if you wish, but that does'nt change the truth by all means....the only way you can change anything is to go back in time...Are you a magician?

Jeremiah

USA quotes: "Liberalism - a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and individual freedom and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties."

So where was this quote found? Who said it? And when?

Because Liberalism today is REgressive, and totally ILLiberal.

While shrieking about "freedom of speech" so-called liberal academics are blocking speeches from anyone who does not agree with them. When David Horowitz, a "red diaper baby" who was brought up a hard-core Communist family and who was a known and dedicated Liberal till he had a secretary murdered by the same Black Panthers he had been defending and who saw his Lefty cronies look the other way, has been heckled on college campuses, been phsyically threatened, had boycotts mounted against him, and had organized efforts in the lecture halls to drown him out.

Why? Well, he had an opposing point of view. He thought, based on his personal experiences as a far left activitst, that the far left was not so great. Oh, and he thought that students should be exposed to differnet points of view during their "education" instead of merely being indoctrinated into one rigid dogma. These were the reasons the Left thought he should be denied the right to be heard.

A "protection of civil and political liberties"? Hardly.

What kind of "progress" is USA talking about? Such a lovely word, "progress". And by claiming it, you can also buy into the delusion that the Other Side, by definition, is AGAINST "progress". But you need to define "progress" for the statement to make any sense.

Do you thing conservatives argue against "the essential goodness of man"? We are firmly committed to the idea that men are, for the most part, essentially good. (That's why we think they not only deserve freedom and the ability to rule themselves, we think they are CAPABLE of doing so.) We also know that some are not, and that these are a danger to those who are, so you might address that---do "Liberals" take the position that the man sawing off a Christian woman's head with a dull sword is "essentially good" and maybe should be left alone? Jeffrey Dahmer? Ted Bundy? Stalin? Clarify, please.

"Individual freedom". That's a good one. It's just that the actual ACTIONS of the hard Left, as shown every time they get a chance to rule, tend to limit and even obliterate "individual freedom". Silly little freedoms, such as what kind of work to do, where to live, whether or not to worship a God, the ability to travel, the ability to disagree with the government....

History shows us that there is far more "individual freedom" in democratic societies than in Leftist ones.

It sounds to me as if you dug up some high-sounding but essentially meaningless claptrap and bought into it because it had the word "Liberal" attached to it. And you are a hard-core Lefty, which has taken the word "Liberal" because it sounds good and even disguises the real intent of the movement, so you just accept it without analysis.

I always capitalize the word "Liberal" when speaking of politics because the use of the word "liberal" describe the rigid, illiberal, confining, punitive, confiscatory and controlling aspects of the Left is a joke.

What you Libs are trying to obscure with your silly efforts to deflect the discussion into totally unrelated matters (Knights of Columbus? Give me a break....) is the following statement---from one of the most radical Lefties around, a true believer, Lannie Davis. Lannie Davis has never met a Socialist he didn't like. He's been a warrior on the fighting front of American Leftism. And, BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY HAS INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT, says:

"If the American public, especially civil libertarians like myself, could be more informed about how careful the government is to protect our privacy while still protecting us from attacks, we'd be more reassured."

In other words, even Lefties, when faced with the facts, have to agree that no civil liberties are at risk.

Ouch. That's gotta hurt....

Let me help you out here. The fact that Lanny Davis feels better is irrelevant. As constituted and practiced, the program is a criminal violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

What part of "it's a crime" don't you understand?

Thank you, Almiranta!

For helping explain it!

That's what I was trying to tell USA, but he/she just won't listen!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah:

The answer to all your questions:

The separation between Church and State.

There is no grand plot against Christians. You can pray you just can't do it in public schools. I think it's funny that I'm explaining this to you, someone who wants to ban Muslim religion freedoms entirely. You should waste your time with liberals more often, you would learn something. I just answered your numerous questions.

Almiranta,

"USA quotes: "Liberalism - a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and individual freedom and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.""
"So where was this quote found? Who said it? And when?"

Jeremiah said it, it's written in abovepost. And it's probably written in simularly in the dictionary.

"What kind of "progress" is USA talking about? Such a lovely word, "progress". And by claiming it, you can also buy into the delusion that the Other Side, by definition, is AGAINST "progress". But you need to define "progress" for the statement to make any sense."

The word progress in the dictionary, I know what it means, do you? I also understand the two political parties in question, you should learn about them.

"Do you thing conservatives argue against "the essential goodness of man"?"

Yes. Neocon philosophy says man is evil. And all conservatives same identical beliefs as what is esentially neocon philosophy: the fear of the counter culture and a fear of progression and the future. Go read about it, I know what I'm talking about.

"do "Liberals" take the position that the man sawing off a Christian woman's head with a dull sword is "essentially good" and maybe should be left alone? Jeffrey Dahmer? Ted Bundy? Stalin? Clarify, please."

Murder is against the law, sir. Are you trying to link liberals with murderers? Or homosexuality with murderers?

"History shows us that there is far more "individual freedom" in democratic societies than in Leftist ones."

To clarify, what you see as failed communist societies or socialist societies, are neither, they are facist, a Rightist philosophy.

"I always capitalize the word "Liberal" when speaking of politics because the use of the word "liberal" describe the rigid, illiberal, confining, punitive, confiscatory and controlling aspects of the Left."

Your claiming liberal means the opposite of what it means. Every aspect you mentioned is linked only to the Right, not the Left.

Yes, USA. That's what it says in the dictionary.

Now, if only liberals met that standard of philosophy, but I'm afraid to say, the leftist mentality has corrupted and mis-construed the definition totally out of context.

What I and Almiranta are trying to say is, the liberalism that we know today, is by no means the definition it was say in 1940. Because, 1940's liberalsim protected the right to morally decent free speech....Todays liberalism, protects the right to profanity, indecent exposure, and other very immoral acts as "free speech".

Here's a scenario for you: Since profanity is considered a form of free speech, does this mean it's ok to curse a police officer when the police officer says no? or is cursing acceptable free speech in front of a judge, under the constitution? Or cursing the teacher and other students in the classroom because of a disagreement on the subject at hand, considered acceptable free speech? when it does'nt even pertain to the subject of study?

Vs.

Would it be right to expell a student from the school grounds and building for kneeling with another student in prayer outside of the school building? Or something as simple as a picture of the Cross (symolizing Jesus death for mankind) on a students T-shirt?

Here's the summary of what I just wrote, Modern Liberalism takes out the good, brings in the bad...thus, changing everything we know as being the traditional way of living into something indecent and morally corrupted way of discourse.

It makes sense does'nt it?

Yes, you can take it to the bank, my friend.

Don't bring me this "Seperation of Church and state" stuff, because it just simply is NOT true, No where, and I have read it over and over does it say in the constitution that there is "Seperation of Church and State.

Jeremiah

USA,

What you are essentially trying to do is claim that anything good is inherently liberal, anything bad is inherently conservative.

The word "liberal", of course, doesn't mean what it once did - as a matter of fact, the founder of conservatism, Edmund Burke, was a liberal: he only advanced a conservative worldview in response to the excesses of the Jacobins during the French Revolution - which was one of the worst things to ever happen to the world.

Liberal used to mean someone in favor of maximum individual liberty - which mostly boiled down to the right of the rich and strong to oppress the poor and weak without any reference to the claims of Judeo-Christian morality. Because of this, liberalism was opposed in places like the Austrian Empire, because the Emperors of same were not about to allow the rapacious to grind the faces of the poor. This type of liberalism remained general until liberalism started to be challenged from the socialist left in the early 20th century. It was only then that liberalism started to be amelioritive.

It didn't work, of course: if people are going to start getting in to the business of taking from Peter to buy the support of Paul, then it is whomever will steal the most from Peter and promise the most to Paul who will triumph...liberalism was consumed by the socialistic left, with actual liberals who didn't fall for socialism eventually turning in to what started to be called "neo-conservative" in the early 1970's.

The end result of this is that liberalism really doesn't exist anymore - there is no general political power behind the idea of maximising individual liberty; conservatism is a philosophy of prescriptive Judeo-Christian morality while socialism is a philosophy of envy and hatred (boiled down, socialists think of the world as a Manichean morality play between the forces of good and evil - the evil being played by anyone who isn't socialist). And, of course, most of these socialist today eschew the word "socialist" and call themselves by the meaningless and absurd name of "progressive".

If you want to be liberal, USA, then you'll have to be in favor of low taxation, small government, maximum personal liberty, opposed to religion (you've already got that covered) and robust in your defense of the right of people to speak their minds, even when you disagree with them...once you do this, and you start feeling the hatred from the left, we'll swiftly welcome you over to the right as our newest neo-conservative.

"The end result of this is that liberalism really doesn't exist anymore - there is no general political power behind the idea of maximising individual liberty"

No, they are called Democrats! There is also libertarianism, I just named two!

Your explanation of socialism is absurd. Since there is no liberalism then all Democrats are socialists?

Mark and Jerimiah are claiming that liberalism doesn't exist and liberalism stands for the opposite what it means. They are giving no examples of "rigid, illiberal, confining, punitive, confiscatory and controlling aspects" of Liberalism. This the only arguement:

"What I and Almiranta are trying to say is, the liberalism that we know today, is by no means the definition it was say in 1940. Because, 1940's liberalsim protected the right to morally decent free speech....Todays liberalism, protects the right to profanity, indecent exposure, and other very immoral acts as "free speech"."

So we should have free speech as long as it is defined as "moral" by Jeremiah's Church.

There is no danger of socialism, capitalism is in no danger. You'd be hard pressed to find a socialist.

"Now, if only liberals met that standard of philosophy, but I'm afraid to say, the leftist mentality has corrupted and mis-construed the definition totally out of context."

The liberals today met the standard of philosophy said in the dictionary.

Liberals have not mis-construed the definition totally out of context.

If you can't give examples of how "the leftist mentality has corrupted and mis-construed the definition totally out of context", as Mark, Jerimiah, and Almiranta claim, then your claims are void and I win this arguement.

Jeremiah,

No, the words seperation of church and state are not in the Constitution, but these are:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the religion clauses.

This has been interpreted as the prohibition of 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress and later, by a Supreme Court Judge, 2) the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies in general.

Jeremiah,

"Here's the summary of what I just wrote, Modern Liberalism takes out the good, brings in the bad...thus, changing everything we know as being the traditional way of living into something indecent and morally corrupted way of discourse."

But your examples of liberalism of bringing in the bad are obsurdities and are not tolerated anywhere! To Quote you:

"Since profanity is considered a form of free speech, does this mean it's ok to curse a police officer when the police officer says no? or is cursing acceptable free speech in front of a judge, under the constitution? Or cursing the teacher and other students in the classroom because of a disagreement on the subject at hand, considered acceptable free speech?"

In everyone of those examples you are going to A. get into trouble and B. your going to see the authorities. To say again, these examples are not even tolerated! Then so, don't you think the world is a little more moral than your trying to paint it?

USA,

No, not all of them - but most are, even if they don't recognise it for what it is.

Look at it like this:

Modern liberalism, so-called, holds that the right to choose if absolute, but it also holds that you can't condemn that opinion unless you are out of sight and hearing of the people making the choice. Real liberalism would be completely ok with choice, but would also be ok with the person making the choice having to get an earful about it.

Modern liberalism, so-called, holds that there is a right to health care. Real liberalism realises that you can't conscript the services of doctors and nurses, and thus there is no right to health care.

Get the picture? What you call liberalism isn't liberal.

USA,

But they are tolerated, did you not see on the news the other day, about the fights that were taking place after a softball game, I forget where it was, but anyway, the parents, and softball coachs were taking part in the fights ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING their bad behavior, Do you call that civility????????????????

As Midge Decter put it, Liberal parents = Radical Children!!

Modern Liberalism is VERY tolerant and becoming ever increasingly tolerant of bad behavior.

Modern Liberalism, places too much emphasis on life and personal issues, Modern Liberalism takes the stance that anything no matter how deplorible and disgusting it is it is still considered a "right" under the first amendment, and needless to say, that's not what the Founding Fathers meant for it to be, Our Founding Fathers would have condemned that definition in a heartbeat, FACT.

So were back to square one, Why do liberals tolerate everything bad? and condemn everything good? i,e. witnessing on school grounds.

Why do liberals tolerate a nude woman on a billboard, but are opposed to a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ alongside a Highway?...

The majority should be allowed to speak, and the majority by the way is Christian in this country, but Liberals say No, I wonder why? There's no seperation of Church and state. So what can it be?

POWER, CONTROL, SELF, ME, ME, ME, POOR OL' ME!

Modern Liberalism is the Dark Side of American politics!!

What must we do then to stop it?

GET BACK TO THE MORAL FOUNDATION THAT ONCE STOOD IN FORTHESTANDING: "IN GOD WE TRUST"!!!!!!!

If America will commend their lives and consciences toward the work of Christ, and good things will happen for America, Otherwise, Only the fate of defeat awaits.

Give ya' the last word...

Jeremiah

"But they are tolerated, did you not see on the news the other day, about the fights that were taking place after a softball game, I forget where it was, but anyway, the parents, and softball coachs were taking part in the fights ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING their bad behavior"

This is not liberalism. It's probably closer Rightist, since the left is passive.

"places too much emphasis on life and personal issues"

If you there can be such a thing as too much emphasis on life and personal issues, then I'll have to take issue with that and call that nonsense.

"Modern Liberalism takes the stance that anything no matter how deplorible and disgusting it is it is still considered a "right" under the first amendment, and needless to say, that's not what the Founding Fathers meant for it to be, Our Founding Fathers would have condemned that definition in a heartbeat, FACT."

You take the extreme position of thinking you will define what is deplorible and disgusting by using haughty and irrational doctrine. I don't think the Founding Fathers would agree with you. And can't you claim it's a fact what you say about the Founding Fathers. I can't say for a fact that they would take my postion.

"Why do liberals tolerate a nude woman on a billboard, but are opposed to a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ alongside a Highway?"

Can you give examples of the nude woman on the billboard, I think that would break some laws. Can you give an example where people are opposed to the depiction of the crucifixion of Christ alongside a Highway? Are these things that really happen?

And if someone is opposed to the depiction of Christ the highway, that is not connected to liberalism.

"The majority should be allowed to speak, and the majority by the way is Christian in this country, but Liberals say No, I wonder why? There's no seperation of Church and state. So what can it be?"

Where have Liberals said Christans can't speak?
I just explained to you the division of of church and state to you above, everyone can see it.

"POWER, CONTROL, SELF, ME, ME, ME, POOR OL' ME!"

Sir, you are the one who wants to control free speech so people don't curse. You want to control women because of abortion. I think you said you want to outlaw muslim religion. Again I ask you to give any kind of example how liberals - the people who fight for individual freedoms for people - are trying to take power and control from other people?

"Modern Liberalism is the Dark Side of American politics!!"

How! Give an example or you claims should be void.

"If America will commend their lives and consciences toward the work of Christ, and good things will happen for America, Otherwise, Only the fate of defeat awaits."

Jeremiah wants all of us be like him otherwise, he knows that our fate is defeat. How he knows this I don't know, but he probably doesn't.

Mark and Jeremiah's (I'll leave Almiranta out) arguement still stands substanceless. I hope this changes things for the better.

"Give ya' the last word..."

Oh, Your so generous -- NOT!
I suppose that means your not going to argue anymore. And I suppose - since your irrational - that you will carry on with your same beliefs even though they were proven to be incorrect, just like Mark does everyday.

What you are essentially trying to do is claim that anything good is inherently liberal, anything bad is inherently conservative.

Are you seriously going to claim that you DON'T think that anything good is inherently conservative, anything bad is inherently liberal? You, who sees "the left" as a centuries-old conspiracy to destroy freedom and eliminate god? You, who believes that all goodness comes from god, and no liberal can be a Christian, and therefore no liberal can be good? You, who blames every single social ill on "the left?" You, who said this on this very blog: "Liberalism is wrong. It is inherently wrong - it can't possibly get it right because if proceeds from a false premise (at bottom, that nurture is all). Anything built upon an incorrect idea will always end up with more incorrect ideas."

I hope you never gain self-awareness, Noonan. If you did, you would stop making knee-slappingly hilarious and unaware statements like the above.

BTW, It appears as though you have dodged answering the question whether it is you or Bush who is a liar about finding WMDs in Iraq (and furthermore, whether or not WMDs were the main reason for going to Iraq). You and Bush claim diametrically opposed things about those issues. One of you is a liar. Is it you or Bush? C'mon, let's hear it!

I suppose USA will keep calling everyone else irrational until he himself is disemboweled as part of the sport Muslims engage in. Or is it just slashing sex organs that amuses his choice of religion. His wife is a would be Burka Babe!
He goes by USA, but there is no there there. He says explain how liberalism is the dark side of American politics...to that stupid question I answer 47 million aborted babies is not supported by righteous people...only libs would kill the unborn and think its a choice. For that he can wait for his particular judgment....so its just a matter of years.