Pat Tillam was an atheist. Yet he joined the military because of his profound belief it was the right thing to do after 9/11. He gave up a multi-million dollar football contract to serve his country. When he died, the White House and right-wing commentators declared him an shining example of what all Americans should be.

And yet, he did not believe in a god.

Funnily enough, sounds a bit like the crescendo that America is leading into. Though our current state of affairs makes it seem that we are struggling more with complacency than anything else.

America's moral decline is ever-prevalent and ever drastic though. We seem to have a problem with figuring the difference between morally sound and morally un-sound policy (a.k.a - abortion, gay/lesbian marriages, embryonic stemm cell research, etc). The individualist mind-set takes precedent over anything else it seems ... or should I say the radical individualist mind-set. Though like Europe, not every person is this way. We still have quite a few people who believe in the sound moral principles of the Bible, thank the Good Lord. These people are what we call Conservatives.

Then enters complacency ...

I think the biggest problem in America today is that the Christian people, atleast many of those who profess to be Christians, have sat back and taken a do-nothing attitude. The last election was a big indicator of this. People have gotten into the mood that, if you can't beat the system, just go with the flow of the system and remain silent, everything will turn out right eventually and we'll go on living happy lives regardless. It is a very dangerous mind-set, one that could cause another Al-Qaeda attack on U.S. Soil.

There is a dark shadow that has been cast over the eyes of many people. Until they choose to try and see through it, it's only going to get worse.

So I'd say it's safe to say that complacency and the radical left are America's two biggest enemies at this point. 9/11 woke some American's up to the threats, but we've settled back into the old mind-set that there really isn't much that can be done. But again, there are still many that believe that something can be done, just apparently not enough to put people in office who will actually do something. Even worse, Many of the people who do want something done won't take the effort to get out and vote. Voter turn out crowd was poor in many states.

Everyone seemed to notice that after 9/11, the phrases "In God We Trust" "God Bless America" and "One Nation Under God", were more than welcomed phrases to use. Everyone made promises and got their hearts right with God, as it seemed that an apocolyptic force was about to put America under. People thought it was the end of time.

Now, only 5 years after the brutal on-slaught, people are saying to leave the Iraqi's alone and let them handle things their own way. Put out Merry Christmas, let the war on Jesus name begin, smite the Ten Commandments into the dirt, break the moral foundations with which this country was founded upon, and usher in Islamic religion as acceptable, so we won't offend those that are trying to kill us. All because to these people, it's the wrong war for the wrong reasons.

I know this all seems to be a bit rambling and twisted and un-connected, but let me make my point now.

The radical individualists want to see Islamics reach their full potential here in the United States. The don't want to see them be bound by traditional American law, which is what individualism is all about, but when put in the radical form it's really dangerous. Leftists want to see Christianity thrown out, because it stresses what they hate, a sound belief in God that dictates that we have to adhere to a moral principle code. A sound set of ethics if you will. It goes against their every agenda. They hate morals. The war in Iraq was their cover up to this, and in-turn they won that battle on that front. But now that they've conquered one front, they aren't going to stop at that. It's only a matter of time after January 1st, that the radical left has their way and launches head-long into their chaotic pursuits.

And the only way that it can be stopped, is when Christian Americans choose to get out of the complacency mold, and stand up and fight against these forces of evil.

After Rome adopted Christianity in the fourth century and then fell in the fifth the West entered into what we now call the "Dark Ages."

A recent discovery of a celestial "computer" dating around 100 B.C. shpws how advanced Greek and Roman technology was in antiquity. Greeks even were aware the Earth was a sphere.

After the rise of Catholicism, knowledge was lost and books were burned. The rise of this religion snuffed out much Classical Greek knowledge.

As Reason replaces religion and superstition, the better off humanity becomes.

Wade

Wade,

Well, that does explain a lot about you - you've bought the revisionist history hook, line and sinker.

Greco-Roman civilization was dead by the third century - when Christianity came to the fore in the fourth century, it started to fight a losing battle to save Greco-Roman civilization from final collapse. Unfortunately, the rot had gone too far and it couldn't be saved and the Greco-Roman world was submerged under a sea of barbarism. The Church then went about coverting the barbarians and civilizing them...and, of course, diligently preserving as much of ancient literature as they could (your story of books being burned is nonsense).

As I said, the civilization of Europe was built by Christianity, and it as been a 250 year process of destroying Christian civilization which has finally born fruit...in the form of a dying European civilization.

Dying: Europeans aren't having children. Without the impetus of belief in a definitive God who rules the universe, having children just becomes an expensive nusiance. Most European countries are suffering net loss in population - save for those countries which continue to allow mass immigration from Arab nations.

mark, look closely at the % of belief in god and cross-reference with birth rate. believing spain, italy and greece have among the lowest birthrates. non-believing france onf the highest (even if you exclude non-white french). it isn't a surprise that the social non-married presidential candidate in france has 4 children.

also, your revisionism needs some tweaking. the narrative of a 'dark age' is surely too simplistic, but a close reading of the fall of the classical world suggests christianity being incidental, not essential, to its fall or perpetuation. also, the east roman empire exhibited continuity, the narrative of fall and collapse is somewhat west-centric. finally, many protestants and even some catholics would assert that christianity did not have deep roots in most of europe until the reformation, before which christianity was an elite avocation and the peasantry was operationally pagan-magical.

-razib of gene expression

Razib,

There are exceptions to every rule - but my bet is that a majority of children born in Europe, and a vast majority of third children in a family, are born to strong believers...either Moslem or Christian. If you don't believe in something higher than yourself, and your self becomes the primary concern of your life...this is just the natural progression of events.

There are exceptions to every rule - but my bet is that a majority of children born in Europe, and a vast majority of third children in a family, are born to strong believers...either Moslem or Christian.

i will accept as likely that within nations the more religious tend to be more fecund. my only point is that when you say, "look how non-christian europeans don't reproduce!" you have to note that it is the less christian nations (sweden & france) who have the higher fertility rates than the more religious nations (greece, italy and spain).

And yet, he did not believe in a god.

And yet, the White House has never mandated a belief in any God. You're an idiot, CW, and you're as Christian as my bunghole...

Wow Mark, you really put yourself out there to give a good example why people turn away from Christianity. Your no Christian. You carry a lot of falsehood in your brain. Love thy neighbor, ever hear of that?

As Reason replaces religion and superstition, the better off humanity becomes.

It was Religion which taught its followers to read and write and thus have the ability to preserve and catalog the teachings of not only the current civilizations but past ones as well. There is nothing wrong with religion, its evil that men do in the name of religion which is wrong.

You call religious belief "superstition" but I call it faith.

Wow! Glenn Beck at Headline News just had a stunning report on Shari'a Law in Europe-and around the world! Catch the repeat of the show at 6pm PST!

Don't miss the interview with the Saudi Arabian executioner!

Absolutely frightening! Outlaw Islam in the West, now!

Pat Tillam was an atheist.

I'm not sure about Pat Tillam, CW, but assuming your were referring to Pat Tillman, his own mother would appear to disagree with you:

Well, this guy makes disparaging remarks about the fact that we're not Christians, and the reason that we can't put Pat to rest is because we're not Christians," Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, said in an interview with ESPN.com. Mary Tillman casts the family as spiritual, though she said it does not believe in many of the fundamental aspects of organized religion.

Her statement would also describe me to a T, CW, and I most certainly am not an atheist.

Mary Tillman casts the family as spiritual, though she said it does not believe in many of the fundamental aspects of organized religion.

Why cannot an aethist be spiritual? Spiritual has more than one meaning.
Ben Franklin and James Madison were spiritual people, and both aethists.

Christian,

That is, plain and simple, a weird position you hold. To be atheist is to, by definition, deny all things of the spirit...and Franklin wasn't an atheist by any stretch of the imagination.

razib,

Fair enough, but I don't think it alters my fundamental point - and it could be that the less religious States are more oppressive to religion, and thus religious people just believe all the more strongly, and are thus more fruitful, etc.

Franklin was an atheist. He made the claim in France. In the U.S. he held he was a Deist for political reasons.
Franklin had 13 children out of wedlock.

You misunderstand aethism. It does not deny all things of the spirit. It was the patriotic spirit and love of country that led aetheist Pat Tilman to join the military.

One can have faith in mankind without believing in a god.

Surprisingly enough not just religious people have babies. What about all the teen mums? I don't think they hve kids because they have any particular belief. I think you'll find birth rates are falling due to more women in the labour market and mor women in positions that need a high standard of Education. It has been shown that the more educated a women the more she controls her sexuality and practices birth control, therfore a poor women in rural Bangladesh will have more kids sooner than a Senior manager from Britain. Women in the west have more choice, they are not so oppressed by men as they used to be, thus they can make up their own minds about what they want. I know noone that had babies because of theri religion and I have two ministers in my family.

As for cowardly well up to you, but just because you don't believe in god doesn't make you cowardly. I don't particularly believe in God, so far no lightning strike's killed me and if I go to hell well that's my fault. As it so happens I do believe in life after death but I will live my life as I see fit and not be bound by a religious book to tell me what is right and wrong, surprisingly I know the difference and if I suffer in the next life, it can only be my fault.

Christianity like most other religions was responsible for knowledge and learning but it also suppressed them like other religions if it didn't like what it was hearing.

Anyway the west stands for freedom of choice so if I don't want to be christian, I will not be christian. Simple as that. Why should I be christian?

Oh and is not America that owes the largest amount of foreign debt?

Mr. Noonan,

Are you trying to take the job I have have worked so hard to get after all these years?

What you decribe may be western Europe sir, but it also is certainly the United States of America!

C.E. esq.

Christian,

Yes, it does.

WeeFee,

That actually describes the collapse of Christian belief...what is really more important: raising up three children to be good citizens, or making it to CEO? Only in a disbelieving, materialistic and depressed world is making it to CEO considered even a tenth as important as having children.

Why should you be a Christian? Well, because of this:

I offer you also my prayers and this appeasing sacrifice for those especially who have in any way hurt me, distressed me or spoken against me, or involved me in loss, or given me cause for grievance; for those, too, whome I have at any time distressed or troubled, pained or hindered from good, whether by word or deed, consciously or unawares. Do you forgive us all alike our sins and the hurt we do one another. Lord, take from our hearts all suspicion, ill-temper, anger and dissension and everything else that may be hurtful to charity and lessen brotherly love. Have mercy, Lord, have mercy on those who beg for your mercy; give your grace to those who stand in need of it; make us so to live that we may be worthy to enjoy your grace and make our way to life everlasting. Amen. "The Imitation of Christ"

Only in Christianity will you find this sort of understanding and contrition. Both the desire for forgiveness and the supplication that we may be able to forgive.

CE,

The job of Cassandra?

At any rate, it does describe parts of the United States - but that part which still has children is the majority of America, and we are rising once again to full dominance.

The Judeo-Christian ethic has guided every successful civilization for the past 2000 years.

Yes, when the Religious Rock is turned over, the ususal beetles crawl out to explain to us, from their self-proclaimed positions of self-proclaimed intellectual superiority, that Christianity has been the downfall of that was ever great, and that refusing to believe in a God, any god, is proof of moral and intellectual advancement. (And up is down and black is white and "progressive" really means Liberalism.)

Yet only one country in the history of civilization has had one enduring form of government for more than two centuries, has produced a higher standard of living than anyone could have imagined, has become a world leader and super power, and has been a beacon of freedom and prosperity for people all over the world---and that country, the United States of America, was openly and proudly established on the foundation of a belief in God and his laws.

England, an empire on which the sun never set, was first a strong Catholic country and then had an established state religion we now call the Church of England. Spain, once the powerhouse of the sea, was Catholic.

We see the religious underpinnings of these countries eroding under the constant attacks from the Left, we see the abysmal failures that Socialist (anti-religious) countries have proven to be, we see once-great countries literally at risk for their very survival as they lose their moral compasses, and we cannot be convinced that getting God out of the public arena is a good thing.

But the Left likes to nitpick. They like to pick out an aberration, apply it to the whole, and then condemn the whole. So any misstep by any religion (at least any Christian religion) or any representative of such is jumped on with glee by those who think they are making a point by saying "Look---this was bad or that was bad or this person is a hypocrite or that person is a criminal" and therefore the entire system, and the belief on which it is based, is supposed to be disowned.

Yet radical Liberalism is a belief system just as much as any religion. The main difference is that it offers no hope. There is no redemption, there is no future in a better place, there is nothing but what is here and now.

The Church of the Left is Government. This is where they place their faith, this is where they look for guidance and comfort and help. And they are determined that this be the ONLY church of mankind. They see religion, particularly Christianity, as a rival for the power of government. And to some extent, it is.

But where Jesus said "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and to God that which is God's" the Left is not content to have religion and government coexisting, working side by side and in concert, as our Constitution envisioned. They want total dominance, which means ridiculing and undermining religion as much as possible and then isolating it from the daily business of life and government. They have even tried to rewrite the Constitution so they can claim that this was a goal of the Founding Fathers.

England has never been an Empire the UK - 4 nations not just England - has been.

Well a woman has a right to a career as does a man,I am no radical feminist but I will not be valued for the number of children I have. I am a human being not a breeding machine. I want children, it is actually very importat to me that I have them but I will not be told that it is my duty to God to have tham. Women have the right to equality because we are not actually inferior to men as was believed in the dark ages. I am all for marriage and equal relationships but that does not mean me sacrificing my life that's unequal and sexist.

I understand that christanity is a forgiving kind religion but I don't need a book 2 tell me what is right and wrong. Forgivness, charity, hope does not necessarily just have to derive from religion. Normal non christians live by these types of values too.

I don't need a book 2 tell me what is right and wrong.

Weefee,

But you miss the point.

Look, without a relationship with your Creator, through asking for His guidance to help you through life, then you can never be happy, True happiness only comes through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who came to earth and died just for you weefee, so that you might ask for forgiveness and be cleansed from your sinful deeds, but you have to ASK for that forgivenesss first, and then live according to what the bible and Jesus words instructs you to, for without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and going to Church on sundays you can't make it to heaven.

Jesus cares about you, and He understands your needs, and problems. Won't you give Him a chance to come into your life? I wish you would just try.

Because nothing in this world would make Jesus happier than for you to be with Him in Heaven.

Jeremiah

Only in Christianity will you find this sort of understanding and contrition. Both the desire for forgiveness and the supplication that we may be able to forgive.

So by your estimation, the majority of the world--the non-Christians--are incapable of such understanding and contrition? I'm sure they will be shocked to learn this.

You really, really, really need to venture out into the real world sometime. I know it's a scary thought, but if you do it, you'll be much less prone to making absurd statements like the above. Good luck!

Sees,

Not just Christians - Jews are capable of it, too. I'm no theologian, but I know at least this much: I am to forgive you everything you ever do to me, and I beg you to forgive me for anything I've ever done to offend you.

What weefee is missing is that Christianity isn't just a "right/wrong" list of things to do or not do - it is a worldview; it is a sword to divide humanity - to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is hard to describe until you have turned towards Christ and accepted, firstly, that you are in desperate need of salvation and cannot possible attain it without God pretty much carrying you all the way. Once you do that, you start to really understand things in a new light - first and foremost just what a lousy rotter you've been. Weefee might be going through life thinking he's a pretty decent chap whom no one can have any large complaints about - I hope that he is correct, but if he is like most of us then he's a thoroughgoing creep who can't go an hour without doing something nasty.

Not just Christians - Jews are capable of it, too.

So it's not just atheists and agnostics--Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Taoists, Sikhs, Shinto, followers of Shinto, followers of traditional African or Asian religions, and Baha'i followers are incapable of such understanding and contrition? Boy, you really hate religion. In fact, you hate the religions of the majority of the world. You should let it go.

Sees,

Not hate, just full understanding. In as much as those religions conform with Judaism and Christianity, they are true...but where they differ, they are wrong. And the primary thing wrong with them is the lack of recognition of the need for salvation. It is only in those who know that as human beings we can be nothing without God where you'll find that ability to humble one self like that.

It is an understanding that I won't get there by religious formulae, but only by the grace of God - it is a complete understanding of my creaturly nature. Remember, in its fundamentals, true religion is saying to God, "Thy will be done".

As a youngster going to Catholic school I was taught that any person who has a spritual belief and who follows the discipline of that belief is "saved".

The emphasis was on the idea that we have to believe in something greater than ourselves, and we have to follow the disciplines of the belief we hold. The thing was, we were supposed to be pursuing spiritual enlightenment and redemption.

Yes, it is possible to be a good person without believing in a Higher Power. The concept of natural goodness rather than imposed goodness (our of fear of punishment) was a favorite topic of philosophers over the ages. It is not just a matter of doing the right things, no matter what the motivation.

The biggest difference, as Mark has pointed out, is the hopefulness inherent in belief in a life after death. I simply cannot comprehend what it would be like to anticpate nothing after this life---a mere cessation of being, a void.

And I have no trouble at all in believing that people who do have something to look forward to, whether it be a traditional Heaven or reincarnation or Valhalla, have a more cheerful and optimistic view of life in general, and a greater determination to make the world a better place because of their conviction that they are part of a much greater whole. I think believing in being a part of a much greater whole also contributes to a sense of value, of self and others, and a sense of responsibility for others.

Of course I am projecting, and of course I am speculating---I can only base this feeling, for that is what it is, on my own perception. But that perception is that if I, personally, viewed my death as the end of life I would not be a very happy person, and would find little or no meaning in that life. It would degenerate, for me, into merely satisfying temporal physical and emotional needs for the short term, and I would find that very depressing and dehumanizing.

If there are those who face their deaths with a conviction that they will simply disappear from the universe and are still infused with joy and anticipation and optimism, well, good for you. It is just hard to understand.

Really Good posts, Mark and Almiranta!

:)

Jeremiah