Mark: I must take you to task for your statement relating christians and birth control. That is a strictly Roman Catholic belief, not Christian belief.

Salvation is by the grace of God to those who believe Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. There are no other ways to salvation, except through Christ.

Mark & other Bush supporters:

Here is your chance to practice your Christian compassion.

Your leader is in trouble and needs your love and comfort: Please leave your message of hope for him at the following site.

http://www.lauraandbarney.com/

you said....."When we believers speak of the war against religion, this is what we mean: the steady errosion of our ability to practise our faith without let or hindrance from the State."

this goes both ways brother........

Jesus doesn't care about this election. He could care less who wins.

The ONLY thing he is concerned with is...Have you gone into the streets and saved as many people as possiable, because He is COMING soon and no one, not even George W. Bush or Bill Clinton knows when he is returning.

Magnum Serpentine

Mark and other B4B moderators:

Here is your chance to get rid of a pest. CO consistently posts comments not related in any way to the topic--he should be banned. I realize it's the heroin talking, but he needs to be taught a lesson. In fact, all Canadiens who don't have a dog in this hunt should be banned, as they offer no intelligent debate.

The government has no place in religion...

The government has no place in religion...

and vice versa.....

Amen to that, 1H8L1BS, amen to that.

Mark says,

-"As a Christian I cannot and must not participate in the practice of artificial birth control - to do so would put my immortal soul at risk."

Be very careful here Mark; this is Catholic doctrine. Protestants, by and large, do not adhere to it, and I personally find no biblical justification for it.

I believe our government has no place in religion. My work place does not involve itself in my choice of religion. My mission, vision, and value set does not involve religion. If I change what I do at my job so that my religious beliefs interfere with the mission, vision and values, I am sure I would be coached and counseled to comply with the core values. Up to, and including termination.

I believe our government has to do the same thing. Insure that freedom FROM religion has its place.

The pharmacist chose his job direction and in choosing that job understood that his values as a "christian" will not stand in the way of him or her performing thier job as directed.

Freedom FROM religion. Period. I do belive in God and will make decisions based on that. I refuse to shove my religious beliefs down others throat. Nor do I want others shoving their religion down mine.

Oddly enough I find I must agree that I've always thought it was Catholic dogma and not Christian dogma that said birth control was wrong and evil. That's just me though.

As for Religion and Government interactions I see how they can both influence one another, but I don't think they should be directly messing in one another's affairs.

For instance religion can teach the morality of such things as not stealing and killing people. Then the government writes laws that say the same things. In that case relgiion is influencing the government but not controling it. Same can be said if the government passed laws saying you could drop off unwanted babies at safe spots with no repercussions and the Churches embraced this concept and set-up drop points without government help. Again influence without control.

What neither should do is directly DICTATE something to the other. The Church can say "guns are bad" but it's not up to the church to allow firearms in citizen's hands, it's the governments. The government shouldn't be able to go into a Church and say, "you can't talk about teh reserection anymore, it's not factual." Again, no direct control on one or the other.

My religion says that cancer is a divine punishment that must not be interfered with lest one interferes with God's will, so I'm going to exclude that, and the flu, and pregnancy, and injury, and frostbite, and whatever, from my employee's health coverage (not to mention the sin of paying worker's comp or severance). Since you can not point to a single shred of empirical evidence that indicates that my religion is any less likely to be true than yours and since the goverment should not be biased towards one religion over another for arbitrary reasons (such as relative number of followers), if we let you exclude condoms you must let me exclude cancer. See, now we have a case "where public safety requires" the government to intervene. If you're going to protect the religion of Christ, you must also protect the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

peas

If the US government passes "hate speech" laws, Christianity will be thusly outlawed. It's already happening in Canada, Europe and Australia. It's evil and it's dangerous. Don't let it happen here in America!

Don't let it happen here in America!

Freedom, we are going to have to become substantially more secular that we currently are for it to happen here. I wouldn't put it past a Democrat-controlled Congress to try, but, IMO, it would result in a level of civil disobedience the likes of which this country has never seen.

I think you're right, Retired Spook. Y'know, I actually see signs of a terrific Christian revival here in America. I hope it only grows stronger and more vibrant!
:)

God bless the USA!

If the US government passes "hate speech" laws, Christianity will be thusly outlawed. It's already happening in Canada, Europe and Australia.

I live in Australia, and the last time I looked, we had freedom of religious expression. That's the problem with bigots - they misquote and twist things to their way of thinking, and then try to convince others that they have a monopoly on truth.

The Church has no place in matters of State, and the State has no place in the matters of Church.

Try practicing a bit of Christianity for a change rather than trying to win a point.

Porter,

Salvation is by the grace of God - but damnation is entirely a human choice...and in what we choose to do and not do that we'll find whether a person wants the salvation offered by Our Lord, or the damnation prepared for those who choose otherwise.

And, as I said, many of my fellow Christians believe differently on the matter of artificial birth control - but the fact that the Baptists joined the Catholics in requesting an exemption to this ruling shows that its not just a Catholic thing to be opposed to artificial birth control.

raker,

Too bad for you that you have no freedom from religion - you have the right to free exercise and the goverment may not establish a religion, but as for you not wanting religion to interfere in your life: too bad, so sad...you ain't got that.

This means that we Christians can enact as much Christian dogma as we choose provided it doesn't violate the free exercise of religion, or amount to a government establishment of religion.

Think about that the next time you're paid to have Christmas off.

I for one, don't need bronze age myths to tell me to be nice to people. And I would immediately call into question the validity of anyone's morality who does.

I too am offended by my company’s health plan,
can you believe it covers dental? My religious believes strictly state those dental exams are direct path to damnation and yet I have to pay into this and aid my fellow employees down this path!

I still don't understand how you all can be so pathetically insecure that you still follow the practices of medieval storytellers, and while doing that you pick and choose what parts of what book to follow?

the moment one Christian says to worship this way, yet another says no, you must worship THIS way, the entire dogma is lost and that’s already happened on this thread.

to believe in doing what is right because you believe you'll be rewarded in the afterlife is a sad and selfish way to live your live and you should be ashamed.

If you want to go down that path, fine, but keep it in your home and in your church, leave everyone else out of it, including the workplace (you don’t like the health plan, tough, get a new job), schools (prayer, pray all you want, but keep it to yourself and God, a choir isn’t needed), politics (God doesn’t pick anyone to be president so they can wage war), and hospitals (you don’t like abortion fine, fight it, but bring religion into the argument and you lose all credibility)

Dick,

Morality isn't about being "nice" to people - it is about doing the right thing, even if it costs you your life. It is something to die for - not just an "I'm ok, you're ok" bit of new age nonsense.

notsohard,

Getting nowhere with me - I don't believe there should even be medical insurance, as all it does it provide profits off the medical field for people who have nothing to do with medicine.

On the other hand, if you were such an employer, you'd likely have a great deal of difficulty obtaining employees - and, also, your objection is actually irrelevant as what is at stake here is the ability of institutions with a clear, known set of beliefs to continue to act upon them...

Opus,

It isn't for hope of reward - we do it because it is the right way to live. To take a small example of being a Christian:

At my place of employment, I sometimes get calls from irate customers. Sometimes they have justified complaints, other times they are being entirely unreasonable - and when I get these unreasonable customers they are sometimes amazingly rude and vulgar. It is when I've got the very worst, most nasty and unreasonable customer on the line that I MUST be extra patient and show generosity of spirit and pray that this person is relieved of the pressures of life which have caused them to lash out at me.

I do this not because I think God is up there with a checklist marking down all the good I do - no matter how much good I do, it will never actually justify eternal life of bliss...but God instructs me to do this in order that I may, by slow stages, become a person who will accept the gift that God offers me, if I'll only let go of myself and my narrow, selfish desires.

Mark

Since human beings were clever enough to split the atom and land on the moon, they certainly don't need a book to tell them what is right and wrong. By definition, an 8 yearold should be able to grasp that simple concept. If the Bible is the absolute word of God, why was the fickle word of Einstein and Newton, far more insightful about reality?

but Mark,
you wrote "As a Christian I cannot and must not participate in the practice of artificial birth control - to do so would put my immortal soul at risk."

you're not doing it because it's the right thing, you're doing it because you fear the consequences, so where does "we do it because it is the right way to live" fit in other than you only see the right way to live as a path to salvation (saving your mortal soul) …which equals reward...that in itself is a narrow and selfish desire.

sorry, should have been immortal soul, not mortal soul...

Even though I am not Catholic, and so dont have the same beliefs on birth control, I defenatly think the government is wrong in forcing them to provide birth control. Birth control is a choice, not life and death. Nobody should be forced to provide somebody else with something like this, expecially if they have serious beliefs agaist it.

One quick request before I comment.

Please remember the family of the 66 year old man who died today in my home state, approximately 40 minutes from our home, He was a bridge day participant. - Dad took some photographs of the event, He also got a picture of the man who died just before he jumped! Sad day for all!

Please pray for the family!
__________________________________________________

When talking about the "believers" on the left, here is what it all boils down to:

Our leftwingers are "professors" - they utter the words from their mouth by saying: "I believe" and then they say they "live it" - here is what that translates into...the left thinks, that, when they go to church on sunday, then they can live like Satan the rest of the week, they can talk to people however they want too, curse however much they want too, just living like the devil, and still go to heaven, HOGWASH!

THEY ARE HYPOCRITS!

Here is some worthy advice to: raker13, DickJohnson, and Opus.

You need to recognize that you are all sinners with mortal bodies still in the flesh, which is destined for all to perish, Ok, after you leave this mortal body behind, you take on a new form, which is your soul, at the very instant you leave the mortal body, you stand before God and give an account for things committed while in the mortal body, i,e. the choices you've made regarding right and wrong, but more importantly - In whether you made the choice to accept Christ, or reject Him, On the accounts of whether you chose to do the Will of the Father, or refused.

Which would you rather be said to you on Judgement day: "Enter in, thou good and faithful servant" or "depart from me you evildoer, for I never knew you"??

You see, God holds the keys to death, grave, and hell, because Satan has no power.

For those who truly believe and do the will of their Heavenly Father, the bible says: "the gates of Hell shall not overcome them" It is the power of God that sustains the Church not the building, No, that building is just a man-made structure with four walls. IT IS THE PEOPLE WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN THEIR HEARTS, That makes the Church, The true believers, IS the Church, the The Bride of Christ! and When Jesus comes again, that is what He is coming for, is all those who believe in Him, and have done His Will!

Now, let me read you a little testimony about Hell.

The heading is: "HELL, Suppose it's true after all?

"Two friends were discussing the possibility of life after death. "Hell is a myth, " one argued. "How can a God of love condemn His creatures to everlasting punishment?" His friend nodded in agreement, and the matter seemed to be settled.
The two sat silently for a moment until one of them looked and said, thoughtfully, "Suppose it is true, after all?"
Suppose it is true after all that Hell exists? Jesus Christ Himself described it as a place of "darkness" and a "furnace of fire" where there shall be "wailing and gnashing of teeth." Some say there is no consciousness after death. But from Christ's words, it's evident tha a person in Hell is just as aware of himself and his surroundings as when he was on earth!
The Bible, God's Holy word, says Hell is an everlasting burning for the punishment of sinners and hypocrites, a bottomless pit where men have no rest, day or night. It's a place where people pray, but their prayers are not heard, where they gnaw their tongues and at the same time curse God. Hell is a place where no one would want their loved ones to go.
Suppose it is true after all that God will punish sin? The Bible says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement."
Suppose it is true after all that we cannot get to Heaven on the basis of good things we've done? The Bible says, "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Suppose it is true after all that Jesus Christ is the Only Savior? Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
Be assured that God is holy and must punish sin. But He is also a God of love, "not willing that any should perish." Therefore, He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins: "God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."
But we must first recognize that we have sinned, ask God's forgiveness and receive Christ as our Savior. The we can have the Joy and Peace of God's forgiveness, and the assurance that when we die we will be with Christ forever in Heaven.
Have you received Jesus Christ as your Savior? "He that believeith on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideht on him."

The choice is yours.
__________________________________________________

Mark, you wrote an Excellent piece!
It makes me PROUD to see you standing-up for God's people!

Jeremiah

My thoughts go somewhat further as respects the far-right-Evangelical-Fundamentalists. As in a theocracy, these fundamentalists want to force everyone to live under Jesus’ laws and rules as interpreted by the fundamentalists – even though these laws and rules have various meanings for the different fundamentalists. They tend to forget that God set up these laws and rules for Christian’s to live by. Forcing someone to live by God’s laws and rules does not make him or her a Christian. If non-Christians do not live up to God’s law what difference does it make?

What is required in the secular world are laws to protect us from each other without denying anyone their individual rights. In the U. S. these laws are supposed to apply to everyone: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Black, White, Brown, Heterosexual, Homosexual, Rich, Poor etc… equally, no exceptions to where and when the laws apply.

Mark,

I don't believe there should even be medical insurance, as all it does it provide profits off the medical field for people who have nothing to do with medicine

You don't beleive there should be insurance? Did you really say that or did you mistype it?

And you want people to listen to you? Seriously, dude, you need a vacation.

...(you don’t like abortion fine, fight it, but bring religion into the argument and you lose all credibility)

Opuss, just where is it that they fine you for having abortions?

Mark, why debate religion with these talking-point regurgitators? Ban them now; this blog was a better place without lemming pukes!

“Think about that the next time you're paid to have Christmas off.”
When I get paid to have Christmas off I thank the pagans as it was a pagan holiday that the Christians Co-opted.

1**8**BS,

Spoken like a true Bush lemming. If you don't like the well thought out counter to your emotionally attached opinion blank it out.

This is one of the most interesting threads on this blog that I have read. I love to read Marks take on things, to hear him talk of his taking the irate customers call.

I have been there and done that. The challenge and there isn’t much that is more satisfying in the workplace than taking one of those calls, is to turn it around and have the person go away thanking you for a job well done and saving the company a good customer.
I find religion fascinating, though I do not consider myself religious. I do consider myself very spiritual though.

I could not tell someone that I know more about religion than they and that everything they thought they knew was wrong, even though they had spent 10 times as much time contemplating it as I had.

Ban them now"

I agree, 1H8LIBS!

I'm tired of these pesky blue coats!

They are vey rude and nasty, in their commenting! like this by Opus: leave everyone else out of it. Just really rude, and hateful; We don't need this kind of discourse.

They don't have the love of Jesus Christ, which they need very much!

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with truth. It always perseveres.

LOVE NEVER FAILS!

Jeremiah

Matt & Mark:

Politically, I am an independent and pretty much a middle of the roader. However I am a Christian, a born-again Christian, who is very much against religion. Religion just causes problems like it appears you are trying to foment in your Blog. As far as I am concerned, worshiping Jesus Christ and religion are two separate subjects.

You are judging the "left". Since you are judging a group instead of an individual, does that mean that you won't be judged for this and "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matt. 7:2). And yes, as you say, my God is a God of love and proof of that is that he loved me enough to die for me.

"If non-Christians do not live up to God’s law what difference does it make?" posted by: sped6348

The difference is: Eternal happiness or Eternal torment!

But, the difference that you speak of is, Christians here, Care about others, and want to give them that HOPE that sets us free from the bondage of Satan's chains!

Now, let me ask you a question, Is it ok if we Christians care about others, If not? Then what are we to do? Just be selfish and say, who cares? Just let them go on to Hell and suffer forever?

Let me tell you something Mister, You're not going to stop anyone from doing the right thing, no matter if it does make a difference to you! Because Christians have a right to speak out as much as any of you disgusting liberals do!

So, Yes it does matter to me, because I, for one, care about the souls of others, as other Christians here and abroad do!

Got that???

Jeremiah

Uh, RAL, read the troll posts, idiot. They could all be by the same person, they're so similar. They're regurgitating talking points, moron!!!

Blank that out if you don't like it...

Jim,

Insurance, by removing the direct cost of a service from the user, just drives up the price of the service. If no one on God's green earth had health insurance, do you think it would cost $500 to get a blood test in the emergency room? No, it would cost $20...and for non-emergency, $5.

The problem with health care is that round about 70 years ago, people in government decided to wave a magic wand and give out health care for "free"...but as we all know, there is no free lunch in this world...all we did was shift the cost and by shifting it to people who don't actually have to pay out of pocket for it, we made possible the absurd rise in health care costs over the past half century.

Now, if you like, we can also discuss how the idiocy of student loans has raised the price of college education...

Opus,

Because it isn't a reward - it is what I was made for all along. God just wants me to be the man I'm supposed to be - the man He made me to be, doing the task He made me for. It is a small yet very important distinction. Its the difference between me saying, "ok, God, I donated $5.00 to charity today, so that gets me one day in heaven, right?" and me saying, "thank you, God, for opening my heart to the point where I gladly gave $5.00 to charity today".

Heaven isn't a place where one sits around merely kneeling before God all day long - it is the place where you finally and forever become truly human and live in a world more real than this world could ever hope to be. But to become this true human - to become this person in whom God has repaired the Fall - I have to let go of this life...and by, for instance, refusing to stand on ceremony when I am unjustly slandered and praying for the poor person who is slandering me because he clearly needs God's help far more than I do at the moment...well, that is how I slowly but surely become the man I was supposed to be.

We're all going to live forever, Opus - here on earth we choose where.

sped6348,

How do you know you are following the teachings of Our Lord? Are you the smartest and most knoweldgable human being who ever lived? Are you, alone, capable of fully understanding God's word?

The thing about the Church - meaning the whole Body of Christ - is that it is designed for the benefit of humanity. God didn't set up a Church because He needed to be worshipped; He set up a Church because his poor children on earth needed an institution to transmit His word and instruct each new generation. He knows just how flawed we are - and He knows that the judgement of one person can be entirely off base...but the collective judgement of millions of people grounded in faith and relying upon the Holy Spirit for guidance simply will not go wrong no matter how many individuals screw it up royally day after day.

I'm a Catholic because I believe it to be true - and I'm not arrogant enough to set myself up in judgement over millions of people over thousands of years.

Jeremiah,

Don't see anything worthy of banning - to be banned you really have to step in it, repeatedly.

Dick,

Your position pre-supposes that splitting an atom is an actually good idea.

That aside, all Newton and Einstein did was describe what was already there...far bigger task to actually make it be there, don't you think?

Amazing how badly you all interpret your own religious texts. It's a crying shame that mankind has not evolved past the need for scary stories to keep them in line, but we're not. The idiot liberals need to recognize that fact - and the idiot conservatives need to keep pushing for self-awareness.

Meanwhile, the bible doesn't condemn birth control; religious institutions shouldn't have to support something they don't believe in; and all you (over) reactionaries need to renew your prescriptions... sedatives do wonders.

Whee! Welcome to the slightly-right of center opinion.

The problem with health care is that round about 70 years ago, people in government decided to wave a magic wand and give out health care for "free"...but as we all know, there is no free lunch in this world...all we did was shift the cost and by shifting it to people who don't actually have to pay out of pocket for it, we made possible the absurd rise in health care costs over the past half century.

Now, if you like, we can also discuss how the idiocy of student loans has raised the price of college education...

You need to have facts and not the usual misleading and distortions you and other so called christians state. I have family in England and Germany who both use this so call absurd idea. And they have cheaper costs in healtchare than America does. Of course you will go into your typical ranttings about the free market, which you are actually against (try reading "wealth of nations" by John Smith. And I encourage you to read the chapter on the "invisible hand". You support a modern aristocratic two class system with the have mores and have nots. Also you might want to note that healthcare costs have "mysteriously" risen in the last 6 years. Coincidence ? I think not. Now I have to go help some patients.

Mark,

Are you for real? The insurance industry was invented 400 years ago to spread the risk among the financiers of Dutch merchants. It works. It does drive up the cost, a fraction, and is generally considered worth it.

If you don't want insurance, don't buy it. I ASSUME you don't have any health insurance...right? Or do you have a health plan, and just want it terminated for OTHER PEOPLE?

The cost of modern health care is so high because each individual, on average, undergoes 1 extremely expensive live-saving event sometimes in their lives...some people have multiple procedures.

How many old people have a heart attack, then a stroke, then cancer, and finally die of something else? Each of these treatments might cost in the hudereds of thousands of dollars, and the cost must be amortized over the individuals life.

The reason the costs are higher now is that doctors don't say "go home and live confortably in the time you have left" anymore. They try to save your life instead...a worthy trade-off, no?

You will almost certainly incurr these costs sometime in your life. You can either start saving the money now or start buying insurance now...it's all up to you. Either way, you're out a couple hundred grand, or you can die. You pick.

The cost of the insurance is not zero, but it is not the cause of health care problem.

By the way, your assertion that a medical test can be done accurately for $5 is just plain nuts. The lab has to amortize the cost of the machine that does the test, which often costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and must pay for itself in a few years, before the next version of the machine comes out. It also has high maitenance costs. And I know you're not a big fan of paying people what they are worth, but the lab techs need to make a buck too. $5? That doesn't even cover the consumables that are used in running the test!

Mark, you're one of the smartest conservatives I know, at least on the internet...please don't ruin it for me. 5$? sheeesh!

D Rock,

God help any of us who get sick if we're visiting a place of socialised medicine - where you can die from a post-operative infection because when the government runs the program, it means that no one really does.

Jim,

Its more like 700 years - but insurance started out as something to protect you against direct loss: the ship sank, you get compensated for the lost cargo. The insurance company was betting against the ship sinking, and was nearly always correct in that bet. Health insurance is something different - almost certainly, almost all of us will need the services of a doctor from time to time. Not a question of if, but of when.

About 18 months ago, my father, due to an accidental overdose of a blood thinner, wound up in the hospital - in intensive care for 5 days, at an invoice cost of something like $30,000. Can you pay that amount out of pocket? I can't - neither can Dad...insurance steps in, and the bill is reduced to $100.00. Not bad - hooray for insurance, right? Well, not quite - among the items billed was rental of the bed at more than $1,000 a day. This wasn't, of course, just any old bed - it was an intensive care bed so it had quite a lot of whistles and bells on it.

I've looked it up:

The bed, itself, can be had new for about $2,000. The mattress for about $300. Add about $500 more for things like the telephone hook up (actually very useful), controls for the TV and alerting a nurse. Add tax and shipping and lets say the whole thing cost $3,000.

They charged my Dad more than $5,000 for five days use of it.

Why? Because they could - insurance would cover it. Why would the insurance cover it? Because the insurance company can just jack up rates next year. And because insurance rates were jacked up, we can now rent the same bed for $1,200 per day...

If there were no insurance, the hospital wouldn't have chargedc $5,000 for the rental of the bed - because they couldn't. There's no one other than a zillionaire who could pay that, and a zillionaire wouldn't pay it. If the doctors and hospitals want to stay in business, they would have to reduce their prices to what the market can bear. The price of all medical services would drop - and, additionally, people would only use medical services when really necessary if they had to pony up for it on an as-used basis. This would also greatly incentivise preventative care.

It was a mistake - medical insurance just made the problem worse.

Me-If the US government passes "hate speech" laws, Christianity will be thusly outlawed. It's already happening in Canada, Europe and Australia.

Aussie free speech said,

I live in Australia, and the last time I looked, we had freedom of religious expression. That's the problem with bigots - they misquote and twist things to their way of thinking, and then try to convince others that they have a monopoly on truth. The Church has no place in matters of State, and the State has no place in the matters of Church." Posted by: Aussie free speech

Look again, then I want an apology from you for calling me a "bigot". BTW, I love Australia. Australia (especially Aussie PM John Howard) has been a terrific, brave ally to the USA in the War on Terror. However, Australia has some major problems, too.

Aussie Thoughtcrime Victims

(via LGF), "Australian leftists managed to get a “Racial and Religious Tolerance” thoughtcrime law passed, and (surprise!) it’s being used by Muslim advocacy groups against critics of Islam:"

"Pastors ordered to apologise for Muslim comments"
(6/21/05)
ABC News Online: A Victorian Tribunal has ordered a Christian group to publicly apologise for vilifying Muslims at a religious conference and on the Internet. The orders are believed the first of their kind under Victoria’s Racial and Religious Tolerance Act.

The Islamic Council mounted legal action over comments made during a Catch The Fire Ministries Conference in 2002 and on an Internet website. Both comments included claims that the Koran promotes violence and terrorism.

Last December the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal found the comments constituted a serious contempt for and revulsion of Muslims. In a packed courtroom today the tribunal said an apology was appropriate and ordered the group and its pastors to publish a statement in the press acknowledging the breach of the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act. The two pastors involved have also been asked to give an undertaking never to repeat the comments again.

Outside the tribunal, Pastor Daniel Nalliah said he will not comply. “Right from the beginning we have stated we will not apologise - we will go to prison for standing for the truth,” he said.
**********

Here's another article on the story...
Pastor: No Apology to Muslims
(5/10/05)
(via LGF), "Convicted of thoughtcrimes at the behest of the Islamic Council of Victoria, an Australian pastor has stated that he would rather go to jail than apologize."

Christian News-The Christian Post: One of two Australian pastors found guilty of vilifying Muslims in December of 2004 says he will rather go to jail than apologize. At a Christian seminar in March 2002, Pastor Daniel Scot said that Muslims were aiming to take over the country and encouraging domestic violence. He also called Islam an inherently violent religion, according to the Herald Sun.

The judge in the case has yet to assign a date to hand out a penalty, which could include a mandatory speech of apology or a fine. The judge stated that the pastors’ comments demeaned Muslims. “It was presented in a way which is essentially hostile, demeaning and derogatory of all Muslim people, their God, Allah, the prophet Mohammed and in general Muslim religious beliefs and practices,” said Judge Michael Higgins.

The Islamic Council of Victoria had sought a court order that the pastors’ ministry and both pastors acknowledge religious discrimination in statements in their newsletters and website. The requested posting would also include the judge’s findings that both were not credible witnesses and that they had not distinguished between mainstream and extremist Muslims in their 2002 comments, said the Herald Sun.

The Sun reported that on May 2, the pastor said his conscience would not allow him to give an apology or acknowledgment, and added that he was prepared for jail. The defendants in the case were Daniel Scot and Danny Nallilah of Catch the Fire, an evangelical ministry. They were both found guilty of violating the Victorian Racial and Religious ACT. The ministry and two defendants were criticized over a March 2002 seminar in Melbourne, where several articles in a newsletter attacked Islam, said the Age.
********

Now, here's what Muslims in Australia are saying...
Islamic Hatred in Mainstream Aussie Mosques

(via LGF), "In the same Australian state where two Christians have been convicted of “religious vilification” thoughtcrimes for criticizing Islam, the so-called “mainstream” Brunswick Mosque is preaching Islamic supremacism and Dark Ages hatred of infidels and Jews:

"Muslim books of hate sold"
6/24/05
Herald Sun: LITERATURE filled with hatred of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims is being sold at a mosque near a Melbourne home raided by ASIO. Books sold at the store attached to the Brunswick mosque tell Muslims they should “hate and take as enemies” non-Muslims, reject Jews and Christians, and learn to hate in order to properly love Allah. The texts say Muslims should learn military tactics and suggest that if a person speaks ill of Islam it is acceptable to kill them. They urge Muslims to strike back against “the barbaric onslaught from their enemies — the Jews, Christians, atheists, secularists and others”.

(Read the whole thing, it gets worse.)
*********

For more information on the Islamic threat within Australia, click-LGF Search: Australia

.

Do you not think that people who live in a country know what is happening in their own country? Aussie Free speech I am sure knows exactly what is going on in Australia and can judge the climate a lot better than someone who doesn't live there. In response to the Brittish articles, yes there are tensions mainly in England, rather than the whole of Britain. These mainly stem from the on going saga of the veil row, Muslims are beginning to feel victimised because of constant attacks on the way they live. The majority of Muslims are kind, respectful of the country the live in and behave like any other citizen. I have Muslim friends who have never tried to push their views or religion on me. You can not judge a majority by a minority.

I also believe religion should be kept out of government, all religion does is divide people and create problems. That is not to say that God, Allah, Buddha etc. themselves are bad or should not be believed in, the problem is the constant attempts of each religion bar buddhism, to assert authority on the other. I have never seen any goog come from a mixture of politics and religion.

The most obvious example being Northern Ireland, for god's sake, they have been fighting since the 15th century. It still goes on today and it exists in the west of Scotland too. People fight, kill, abuse each other because of theological differences as well as obviously who should rule what, who has right to remain etc. Then there is the situation in Kashmir between Hindus and Muslims and The Armenian Holocaust between Muslims and Christians in 1915. The expulsion of the Jews from Europe in the 15th century, the reformation where protestant, catholic and any other prson deemed a heretic were burnt at the stake for their beliefs

You can not force people to believe in something they don't want to. My family is religious but in a secular way, I have two presbitarian ministers n my family one being my uncle, they believe in god obviously but they disagree with religion being used in Government, they respect other peoples beliefs and accept that people can't be forced to believe, they take a pragmatic rather than emotional view but their belief and love of god is just as strong. I believe in god, but I don't follow the Bible because I believe that if I live my life in a decent way then that is all anyone can ask for. If I burn in hell then that is my problem and no one elses, it is also my choice. No religion should be forced on anyone, and in this age we live in multi-cultural societies where EVERYONE should be respected, how can that happen if laws are based on religion? Sure religion forms a part of it as religions preach morals but that is all it should never be imposed on people that don't want it.

Don't quite get where healthcare comes in but anyway in Britain you pay for healthcare through your taxes. (which btw are 22% of your wages, for average people) You have no health Insurance at all unless you want to pay for it so you can be treated privatly. While not perfect the health care system is good and everyone is treated fairly and equally on the NHS. It is a system that although we all complain about it we are proud of, as it gives everyone the chance to access good health care facilities no matter how rich or poor they are.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the ruling applied to these religious institutions in regards to the employees of the social agencies they are running. The Court ruled that because they are defined as employees employed by social agencies run by a religious institution and not religious institutions per se, they are to include contraceptive coverage, just like other institutions running social agencies. You may scoff at this distinction only because you are not trained in matters of law.

If I am correct in my understanding of the ruling, then Mark's post is inaccurate.

"In ... Canada they are already prosecuting priests and pastors for doing nothing other than preaching commonplace Christian theology."

Funny. I've lived in Canada all my life. I am a lawyer and well acquainted with our laws and current events in this country. I am aware of NO instance in which any religious practitioner, priest, pastor, rabbi or otherwise has been prosecuted for "preaching commonplace ... theology" of his or her religion.

Would it be asking too much for you to cite examples?

Mark,

How would this be any different than employees of the Catholic Church taking their pay from the church and going to the pharmacy to buy condoms or birth control pills? If birth control is so abominable for the church, why doesn’t the church demand that its employees don’t use contraception if they want to work for the church? That’s the only way to ensure the church’s money doesn’t go towards artificial contraception but I don’t see the church doing this.

sorry Mark, but your confused on your own spirituality, if it isn't a reward then you shouldn't be concerned about salvation, it either happens or not, independent of your actions here...if it is dependent, as you say it is, than it is a reward and we go back to you being selfish.
Do the right thing, have a relationship w/ God, but trying to convince others to follow the same path by saying it’s the only way their immortal soul can be saved is offering a reward…

IH8 but can't read English....learn the English language before you try to respond to something, “fine” = “ok” or “so be it”, it isn't always a monetary penalty...lean the language sheep.

Jermsheep,
just remember Jesus was a Liberal, and please, just once, say something that hasn't already been said on the same thread...makes you sound like a parrot sheep.
cash in that Al Qaeda retirement package yet?

I'd love to own all you little believer but apparently this site is a dictatorship with logic and reason being silenced so we can hear ludicrous proclomations of faith go unchallenged. Never have I been so disappointed in what should be a forum of ideas. If the stupid moderator who deleted my last two posts (who will surely delete this one as well), wants to email me to explain why he is such a coward, feel free.

Weefee,

What part of two Christian pastors being found guilty of violating Victoria’s Racial and Religious Tolerance Act and facing jail time don't you understand?

Brian,

Catholic teaching is that artificial birth control must not be used - but the Catholic Church cannot and will not reach in to people's lives and prevent them from making their own choices. A lot of Catholic do use artificial birth control, but this is just part of the failure of the Church to properly instruct over the past thirty years or so - something which is changing right now (boiled down, it became commonplace for Catholics to think that the ban on birth control was nominal because the bishops didn't insist - that oversight is being corrected).

What people do on their own is their own business - and what the Church does as an institution is no business of the government.

Weefee,

Islam is trying to dominate all countries, including America-

Bridges TV: Islamic Supremacism on US Television

LGF, "While the Washington Post sanctions the propaganda of radical Islamists, our friends the Saudis are continuing their infiltration of American society, openly telling anyone who cares to listen that their goal is domination of the US, via the Islamic television channel Bridges TV: An Islamic TV Channel Expands Its US Audience.

Bridges TV, an American-Islamic TV channel “seeking to improve the image of Muslims in the United States” and to “offer a unique perspective on the Middle East and the war on terrorism,” has extended its availability into six states, creating a potential audience of nearly 2 million.

LGF, "What is the “unique perspective” that Bridges TV hopes will “improve the image of Muslims in the US?”

One religious figure who appeared October 3 said Muslims have a duty to change America and to increase their numbers to 50% of the population from 2%. He recommended that Shariah, or Islamic law, be implemented in American courts.

[..]Throughout the day, Bridges TV airs segments of Koranic verses, quite a few of which denounce “unbelievers.” One notable verse that aired October 9 praised martyrdom.

Since the Islamic holy month of Ramadan began, the channel has been showing official, Saudi government-controlled Wahhabi sermons from Mecca’s holiest mosque, Al-Haram. The sermons stream live via Saudi TV Channel one every day at 4 p.m., and Bridges TV adds its own English subtitles.

An anti-Jewish, anti-Christian sermon from October 5 included the call, “May God destroy them!”

Observer,

I'll have to retract on that - I'm sure I saw it a couple years ago about a pastor in Canada being investigated for hate crimes for calling homosexual sex a sin during a sermon, but I can't locate a news report at the moment...but I've got plenty on Sweden and Britain, just in case you would like it.

Opus,

Just remember, Salvation comes only through knowing!, and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior!

Jeremiah

Thanks for the retraction. I fundamentally disagree with your views, but your willingness to correct a factual error is something that I've seen very few web commentators demostrate, left or right, Godly or athiest.

"I fundamentally disagree with your views"

If that is the case, then your system of thinking is flawed; your thoughts coincide more with, the worldly ways to a problem solver; the views that most represent sinful ways of thinking, which of course is natural, all are born with that adamic nature, but at your age you are already at the point in your life that much hope has been lost, until you recognize that Jesus died for you, and that He loves you much, and wants to save your soul from damnation, provided that you are of willing heart and mind!

In the end, worldly possessions will have no meaning, only the short term or long term relationship that we have with Jesus Christ, which is under God's judgement, pre-determined, Your destination is then, left in your hands to choose what you wish to do with your life after the Judgement seat, at the right of the Throne of God!

It would only be fitting to say that; It is worth while to give God a chance to deal with your heart and life, which is of course the only that will make that difference in your life at the present and future!

Jesus gives peace, that passeth ALL understanding!

:)

Jeremiah

Mark, thank you for your 10-21, 1:33 AM reply.

To answer your question: no, I am not the smartest person alive. However, God does not require super intelligence. I believe in God and because I believe in Him, I try to live in his will and ask him to forgive me when I do not succeed.

Now, my question for you: do you believe that forcing someone (anyone) to live by the laws you deem to be appropriate will get them into heaven? The great commandment that Jesus Christ gave was to spread the Gospel. The reason you spread the Gospel is so that others may believe and have everlasting life. I have not read in the “Holy Bible” where Jesus said to go pass laws that make people live according to my wishes so that they may have everlasting life. If I have overlooked it, please tell me where to find it. By the way salvation is of faith not of works lest any man should boast.

sped6348

Why is it, that you insist any Christian should not be able to speak out for the sake of Christ?

Again, We're not forcing anyone to be a Christian!
Just warning of the dangers of a life without Christ, ya see?

For example - If someone said to you, "Look both ways before crossing the street" and you did'nt, Who would be the smarter person!

See? It's just common sense, but so many people take the attitude that you take and say: "Ah a bunch of balogna that Heaven and Hell stuff" and then die and wind up losing their souls to the devil, in torment, forever!

You see? SO that's why it is important that we command a Nation to set an example through the leaders of our Nation like George W. Bush, Who set a kind of example to keep America from going in the wrong direction, and we're not demanding the people to live the way we tell them to, but we're just stressing the point in order to give society the HOPE that only Jesus Christ can give!

Now, Any questions? I'll be glad to answer them for you!

Jeremiah

sped634b,

Whether or not a particular law is passed will not get me in to heaven - but as a Christian I bear a moral responsibility for what goes on. When we confess our sins, we don't just confess the things we've done wrong, but the correct actions we've failed to take. At the judgement seat of God, it will be asked: why did you allow your brother to do that? I believe all of us will have to pay the price for the abortions, pornography and other degradations we've allowed to happen. We've all turned the other way and said, "I've only to be concerned with my salvation" - and that is not what Jesus taught, as far as I can determine. I am primarily concerned with me, but I must help my brother, not hinder him.

I cannot force people to be good, but I can by wise laws make it harder for them to do bad - when I consider laws to be enacted, this is part of the equation.

Freedom one what part of my post didn't you understand? I never mentioned anything about Ministers getting arrested. I believe that was Observer not me.

Anyway if they'd arrested Dr Ian Paisley and a couple of catholic priests maybe Northen Ireland would be sorted. Then again not because this conflict goes deeper than that now. The scary Thing about Paisley is he really believes, none of this saying one thing and doing another.

Well they only make up 2% of your population, how many non-muslims will sit and watch Islamic TV? Also remember there are sane Muslims! You seem to like to involve the whole Muslim community when not all are involved in extremist activities or beliefs! How many Muslims have you actually spoken to and tried to understand not just their religion but their feelings on religion, war on terror, being American?
Can I point out that I would be no more happy being under Christian rule than Muslim rule. I would not accept either, and would nopt follow either.

Barbaric Muslim practice in Britain!

Parents fly in African village elders to circumcise their young daughters

TimesOnline.co.uk: Police and health authorities fear that 25,000 British girls are at risk of genital mutilation. Hundreds of young girls in Britain are suffering genital mutilation at the hands of women paid to come to Britain by their families. African immigrants are clubbing together to pay for practitioners to fly to Britain and circumcise their daughters in highly secretive rituals. [..]

In Britain, female circumcision — or female genital mutilation (FGM) — is illegal, and carries a maximum sentence of 14 years’ imprisonment. The penalty has, however, failed to halt the practice, with thousands of young girls taken abroad each year for that purpose. There has never been a prosecution, although it has been an offence since 1985 with the introduction of the FGM Act. Since 2003, taking a child to another country to have it done has also been an offence.

Female circumcision among the African community in Britain has been commonplace for years but the wider population has been unaware of it. Now, however, police, social services and health workers have become concerned. They believe it to be widespread, with about 25,000 young girls remaining at risk in Britain, according to the Foundation for Women’s Health Research and Development (Forward). [..]

The procedure is highly dangerous and leaves many of its victims with health problems throughout their lives. Infections and cysts are commonplace, as are complications during childbirth, endangering both mother and baby. Women who have suffered genital mutilation are twice as likely to die in childbirth and three times as likely to give birth to a stillborn child.

Despite the dangers, many African Muslim communities prize the ritual and ostracise women who are not circumcised. It is common in a band stretching from Senegal in West Africa to Somalia on the East coast and in many areas uncircumcised women cannot find a husband. [..]

It is thought to have been carried out on about 75,000 first-generation female African immigrants in Britain.

Female Circumcison is not just carried out by Muslims, It is carried out by many animist tribes too. It has been banned in many middle eastern Muslim countries and is mainly carried out in Africa. In Sudan they are beggining to forbid its practice, as you know Sudan is Afrian and mainly Muslim. Of course its wrong but its not just muslims, I noticed you never answered the how many muslims have you spoken to question.

It's amazing Weefee, how blithely you dismiss Muslim female genital mutilation. In Britain. In the year 2006. It's barbaric and horrific!

You said that you know many nice, decent Muslims. What if those Muslims that you are personally acquainted with were savage, misogynistic thugs? Would you judge all 1.2 billion Muslims on the planet by the few that you know personally? No, of course not.

I don't either. For the record, I've been acquainted with several Muslims-2 Muslim physicians-and they seemed to be decent people.

I don't base my assessment of the religion of Islam on the Muslim followers, I base my assesment of Islam on the Qur'an and the Islamic Ahadith.

Weefee, there are moderate Muslims, but there is NO moderate Islam. Islam is an evil, violent and misogynistic religion/political system/culture/economic system/social system. (Islam makes no distinction between religion, politics, culture, economics, etc., because Islam is a total way of life.)

Read the first 5 paragraphs of On Assertions Without Evidence by Robert Spencer on his website "Jihad Watch".

Islam is evil and violent. Islam is incompatible with Western freedom and democracy and equality for women. Islam must be outlawed in America and the West. Period.

My point was it is not confined to Muslims. I said it was wrong very wrong. I am not particularly pro Islam, I ma against parts of their culture, like honour killings, which don't happen across all Muslim countries, I am against female circumcision and other things like that.

Moderate Muslims live to moderate Islamic values, the same as moderate christians live to moderate christian values etc. It is forbidden in the koran to commit suicide, thus suicide bombers are sinning, most muslims are against killing.

Instead of us targeting mulsims which is what is happening, its not Islam we are targeting, we need to address certain issues. A good start would be the Palestinian/Isreali conflict. The Palestinians need a state, they need to be secure as do teh Israelis and some form of Compromise should be reached over Jerusalem.

How do you propose to outlaw a religion? It can't be outlawed, people will still believe and practice it. Look at the Reformation, we burned loads of people coz they were protestant, Catholic, Jewish whatever. They didn't fit in with the views at the time so were persecuted. They still survived and all these religions seem to be going strong.

It could be argued Islam hasn't been through its reformation I don't know what we can do, but persecutions not teh answeer it hasn't worked before. We are not innocent of atrocities against Muslims or other peoples either, the Crusades are a perfect example, as is colonialistaion.

Religion just creates problems no matter what religion, this is why we have to keep it out of government and out of schools. Teach them the values of every religion of course, what the religion stands for its core beliefs but there it ends.

Evidently Mr. Jeremiah takes issue with my statement that I do not share the views of the proprietor of this blog. Perhaps I should have added that it was primarily political views that I was addressing, not religious ones. Freedom of religion is one of the greatest achievements of our culture and our civilzation - and this necessarily includes freedom from religion for those who do not profess or adhere to a specific creed.

I have many Christian friends, and likewise friends who adhere to Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Islam. Many of my friends are non-observant, although they come from religious families. And some are athiests. I draw no distinctions between them based on their religious views.

Perhaps, Mr. Jeremiah, you might do the same. I am not a Christian, although there is much in Christ's teachings that the world would do well to observe - in fact, millions of self-proclaimed "Christians" now, and in the past, would have done well to observe Christ's imprecation to sell what you have and give it to the poor. But the splendour of the cathedrals alone gives the lie to that proposition. Sadly, religion is an invention of mankind, and bears all of our respective shortcomings - venality, greed, intolerance, and so on.

You're entirely welcome to your religion. As is any other person who professes a particular creed. But your religious freedom stops at the point at which you would tell me what to believe, or how to act, in the name of any particular religion. Just because I don't share your views on the primacy of Christianity, or your particular variant of it, doesn't mean I'm sinful. You know nothing about me, my life or what I've done. That's immoderately presumptive, to put it as politely as possible.

Enjoy your religion. I sincerely hope it gives the greatest personal and spiritual satisfaction. But leave me alone to mine. Your theological beliefs are not inherently superior to mine or anybody else's. Live and let live, OK? I'm sure you take exception to the views of Muslims who demand that the whole world convert to their religion. They would appear to believe that their religion is the one true creed and that God demands that every man and woman should come on board. Much as did the Church during the Inquisition.

Conversion to another religion can only be undertaken by way of a free choice. Anything else in anaethema to a free and democractic society, and I assume you support the latter. Again: your religion is no better than mine. I'll leave you alone, and you can leave me alone.

Weefee, I don't know where to start with your post, so I'll just address a few points.

"It is forbidden in the koran to commit suicide, thus suicide bombers are sinning..."-Weefee

Yes, it's forbidden in the Qur'an to commit suicide. However, according to Islam, "suicide" bombers are not considered to be committing suicide. According to Islam, they are sacrificing their lives to kill infidels-enemies of Islam-in jihad war.

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

"... most muslims are against killing."-Weefee

Perhaps. But, Islam isn't. That's the point. War

Qur’an:4:77 “Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?”

Qur’an:8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

Qur’an:8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

"...we need to address certain issues. A good start would be the Palestinian/Isreali conflict. The Palestinians need a state, they need to be secure..."

Not going to happen. Islam hates Jews. The Palestinians just elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas is openly dedicated to the genocide of the Jews. Read what Islam says about Jews:

Qur’an 2:61 “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.”

Qur’an 4:55 “Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!”

"We are not innocent of atrocities against Muslims or other peoples either, the Crusades are a perfect example..."-Weefee

No, we're not innocent. But that doesn't give Muslims the right to slaughter us. Also, I'm glad you brought up the Crusades. Are you aware that starting in the year 630 AD, Muslims waged over 400 years of brutal aggressive wars of conquest against Christians and Christian lands before the first Crusade was called by Pope Urban II in 1095 AD? Take a look at the Timeline.

Osama bin Laden was still bemoaning the Crusades (which Muslims started!) when he attacked America on 9/11. That's a thousand year grudge!

"How do you propose to outlaw a religion? It can't be outlawed, people will still believe and practice it."-Weefee

I've already told you. Outlaw Islam in the West. Close all mosques, madrassas (Islamic schools) and all other Islamic institutions and organizations. Deport everyone who continues to practice Islam to Islamic countries.

BTW, Weefee, I like Scotland and the rest of the UK! I want to protect the freedom and democracy and equality for women that presently exists in the UK. That's why I'm warning people about the dangers of Islam.

Observer,

Very well!

In any case though, whether you choose to accept or not, It is only by God's Grace, the rights you currently have, and will continue to have, according to His, Divine will and plan!

God deserves ALL the Glory, and Praise!

Jeremiah

I am not a Christian, although there is much in Christ's teachings that the world would do well to observe - in fact, millions of self-proclaimed "Christians" now, and in the past, would have done well to observe Christ's imprecation to sell what you have and give it to the poor. But the splendour of the cathedrals alone gives the lie to that proposition. Sadly, religion is an invention of mankind, and bears all of our respective shortcomings - venality, greed, intolerance, and so on.

You're right about one thing, Observer, the world would do well to observe Christ's teachings and adhere to them. It would be a much happier, safer place should they do so.

Sadly, you're totally wrong about about these so called 'shortcomings'. So far as the splendor of Cathedrals and churches around the world, these are only the buildings of the offerings of God's Children. Every Sunday offerings are taken up in order to improve and sustain the buildings