I'll be checking back to see the "Our leftwingers...." use their pretzel logic to explain away the above rational explantion dismembering their "no right to life" argument.

"...dismembering their 'no right to life' argument."-by: Chicagoray

"Dismembering"-how apropos. The Left is the Culture of Death. Coincidentally, Islam is also a death cult. No wonder the Left and Islam have formed a strange alliance.

First of all, it's a typical Right-wing ploy to
misrepresent ,mischaracterize the Left.The
issue as seen by most of us is one of CHOICE.
It's a woman's, body, and abortion is her
moral dilemma, nobody else's. I don't know
of anybody on the Left who supports abortion
per se. In fact, many , like my dad, a Catholic
Democrat, agree with your"pro-life" stance.
I happen to believe that it should be an
absolute last choice, and that we should concentrate on education and economic uplifting
to prevent abortion. BTW, why is it that abortion
is more prevalent in bible-belt "red states"?

As for treatment of the poor, David Kuo, second
in command of the "Faith-Based-Initiative" just
came out with a book that explains how
much the Bush Admin. cares about the poor. He
says that Christian Groups were promised $8billion
per year for their poverty programs,but had to
fight for even 1% of that! For all of your bad-
mouthing of the Left, do you truly believe that
the same hypocrisy would have occurred in a
Democratic Admin.?

It amazes me how far from reality you people are. These are trying times for everyone whos not wealthy right now. Global warming is tearing our planet apart while Bush pushes for more and more oil to help kill it. There are energy alternatives, our gov't helps detract them for bigger oil profits. The people who build your stoves,cars,water heaters, and even your houses, are struggling to feed their families, but Bush is rebuilding foreign sandpits to establish oil connections. This administration is so entirely blinded by money they are killing us all. A huge percentage of kids never graduate high school,and most who do can only read at a 6th grade level. But were blowing money on bombs and weapons, waging hitler-esque domination wars, only for money and not prejudice, thats the only real difference. Where is our future when our nation's next generation is gasping for air trying to breathe in a world full of corruption and scandals. Most people turn a blind eye to the presidents disregard for our constitutional rights, its sickening how ignorant our nation has become. Then theres your side, so deep in your transparent religious racial beliefs and prejudices. I believe that siding yourself one way or another is turning your cheek at the facts, i look for the better man, and Bush is no leader, and is no role model, his facade fools you all into believing he is Christian, he is a lying, arrogant warmongor.

Mark, maybe trying mixing up your posts a little bit. I really enjoy the ones where you bash liberals for being obsessed with bashing Bush and republicans. I mean, these stream of posts bashing liberals is all well and good, but some balance would be nice too, you know?

Mark, here is where you "logic" falls apart. The "left" doesn't define every last moral a person on the "left" holds to. Personally I think abortions are disgusting, but wait....am i not on the left?

But something that confuses me about your position, are you against someone having a wish to die in the event they are in a vegetated state? I can understand your view of the unborn, but I fail to understand how anyone can tell someone they cannot decide to die.

Great piece, Mark.
Spot-on.

BTW, why is it that abortion
is more prevalent in bible-belt "red states"?

Actually, PukeOrDie (what an appropriate name), that's not true.

According to the CDC:

Abortions per state

(AP) - Number of abortions per state in 1996, with the rate per 1,000 women:

Alabama 13,826, 14
Alaska 2,139, 15
Arizona 11,016, 11
Arkansas 5,882, 11
California 280,180, 39
Colorado 9,710, 11
Connecticut 14,094, 20
Delaware 4,482, 26
District of Columbia 13,674, NA
Florida 80,040, 27
Georgia 35,790, 20
Hawaii 4,916, 19
Idaho 1,022, 4
Illinois 53,613, 20
Indiana 13,341, 10
Iowa 7,602, 12
Kansas 10,685, 19
Kentucky 7,000, 8
Louisiana 11,865, 12
Maine 2,615, 9
Maryland 12,363, 10
Massachusetts 29,293, 21
Michigan 30,208, 14
Minnesota 14,193, 13
Mississippi 4,206, 7
Missouri 11,629, 10

Montana 2,763, 15
Nebraska 5,214, 14
Nevada 6,965, 20
New Hampshire 2,300, 8
New Jersey 31,860, 18
New Mexico 5,033, 13
New York 152,991, 37
North Carolina 33,554, 20
North Dakota 1,291, 9
Ohio 36,530, 15
Oklahoma 6,769, 10
Oregon 13,767, 20
Pennsylvania 38,004, 15
Rhode Island 5,437, 24
South Carolina 9,326, 11
South Dakota 901, 6
Tennessee 17,989, 15
Texas 91,470, 21
Utah 3,639, 8
Vermont 2,139, 16
Virginia 25,770, 16
Washington 26,138, 21
West Virginia 2,470, 6
Wisconsin 13,673, 12
Wyoming 208, 2
Total 1,221,585, 20

Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Notice that twice as many states that had 20 or more abortions/1,000 (CA, CT, DE, IL, MA, NY, OR, RI and WA) were BLUE States. The only RED states that had 20 or more abortions/1,000 were GA, FL, NV and NC and TX, and, as the election in 2000 showed, FLorida is not bright red. The fact is that, in 1996, California and New York accounted for over 35% of all abortions in the United States, and both of those states are bright BLUE.

Pukie has bought into the meme that abortion is the woman's choice because it is her body. When it is her body deprived of life, I might go along with that. But once she is making the decision about another person's life, the whole thing changes.

But I appreciate his agreement that abortion is bad.

kiwi, I have no problem with a DNR for seriously ill people, and I do struggle with the problem of wanting to die if somehow being in a true vegetative state. But there are so many problems with that, the most serious being the ability to determine a true "vegetative state".

The infamous Terri Schiavo affair called a lot of attention to that concept, but when the facts came out, they were carefully buried because they did not tie in with the pro-death agenda of those who insisted on killing her. The autopsy showed that the part of her brain which was so seriously damaged was that which controls motor function, while the part that controls emotion and awareness was in much better shape. So there was the possibility, or even likelyhood, based on testimony, that she was aware of her condition, aware of those around her, taking pleasure in the visits of her family and the tastes of food offered to her (as per the testimony of a caretaker who said she liked orange juice and jello, and could swallow them) and---and this is the creepy part---was aware of the implications of the removal of her feeding tube. (She fought violently when they removed it, crying and moaning and resisting.)

So until and unless we can arrive at a foolproof way of knowing----KNOWING---when a person is what we call "brain dead", unless we can know without a shadow of a doubt that the person is either not aware or is aware and still wants to die, we run the risk of killing people whose awareness is active and who may not be ready to die.

Dear PukeOrDie; The unborn human being in a women's woumb is not "her" body but the body of her child (Biology 101). In a civilized Christian society murdering innocent human life is against the law.

Lastly, GB did not fund as many Christian programs that he would have liked to. But...if people like you were in charge NO funding would go to Christian organizations helping the poor. You would just continue to give immoral, out of control women a free party pad and money to spend on drugs and alcohol. Thats the way liberals take care of "the poor".

Tom,

There's just so much to bash the left over - its an endless cornucopia of folly...if Matt and I wanted to, we could do a six volume set of "Caucus of Corruption". Hard to know when to stop...

But, come now, we're both Catholics - what is your position on the culture of life?

Isn't it interesting that the ultra right is the party of "Pro-Life", but is all for elective wars, not much more death mongering than a war now is there, death penalty, I just kill em all, let God sort em out mentality, and the many other lapses in congruity in their logic. I guess when it comes to controlling people then the Right has all the answers.

Of course we have come to expect a complete lack of logic on the part of the Bush administration and their following of lemmings so this is no surprise.

The sad part is that the holier than thou group pass all these laws and then when it comes time for them or their daughters to have their abortions they send them to a state or a country that has not outlawed them and leave those that cannot afford the trip to the back alley coat hanger abortionists. Part of this same group is the nut cases that don't even want to assist the poor with birth control. Now there is some real compassionate conservitivism for you.

Kiwi,

From the linked article:

The ban against euthanasia does not mean that care-givers and families cannot stop extraordinary medical procedures used to keep their loved ones alive. To reject such treatment is not euthanasia, "it is the refusal of 'over-zealous' treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted"

Choosing to stop such treatment is a prudential judgment belonging to the patient's family and the assisting physician. The need to make such judgments demonstrates how laws allowing euthanasia harm the relationship between doctors and patients. The Hippocratic Oath, taken by physicians since before the time of Christ, specifies that the physician "do no harm."

The euthanasia option fundamentally changes the relationship between doctor and patient: Patients can no longer trust their doctors to absolutely seek life over death.

As our most recent example of this: In the Schiavo case, the only requirement of morality was that once the feeding tube was removed that there be an effort to get Terri to eat and drink orally. A feeding tube is an extraordinary bit of medical care which the family must make a prudential judgement on whether or not to continue - it wasn't wrong for Terri's ex-husband to seek its removal (though it was disgustingly cruel that he sought it in direct opposition to all of Terri's family), but it was wrong to not even try to give her water as she lay helpless and dying.

My documents are all in order - my wife has my written permission to make all arrangements should I be incapacitated, and there are secondary people in case we are both incapacitated. I want no tubes stuck in me to sustain my life unless there is a solid chance that I will recover. I don't desire an endless extension of my life here on earth - but everyone on this earth bears a responsibility to ensure both that I don't un-necessarily suffer, and that my innocent life is not taken from me.

Culture of Life? Well, life's a beautiful thing, and I pretty much go by the Catholic beliefs on this... except for contraception and pre-marital sex thing.

Tom,

So, except for Catholic teaching, you're all in favor of the Catholic position?

Come on, Tom, you can do better than that...

RA-
The Pro-Choicers have a saying-"love the
fetus, hate the child". Those that push the
anti-abortion agenda largely ignore the child
once it has been born into poverty, adaption,
etc. There is a question as to when a seed can
actually be viewed as human life. I happen to
support vigorous education to women of the
"pro-life" position, but not to the point of
forcing it.

Your comment about "immoral,out of control
women" borders on misogyny

Wow Tom, your not really John Kerry, are you?

Well, considering part of the Culture of Life is having an opposition to unjust wars, and the Catholic Church has labeled the invasion of Iraq unjust, I'd look into the mirror, Mark, before you start criticiing how of live my faith.

And no, Bearman, I'm not John Kerry. Are you Lennie Small?

Tom,

Uh, no, the Catholic Church has not labelled the liberation of Iraq an unjust war...if you are going to attempt to speak Ex Cathedra, you might want to check first to see if you're the Pope...

Denied the opportunity to address the White House media following the meeting -- administration officials “told us not to do it,” said Laghi -- the papal envoy held a hastily called news conference two blocks from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. at the National Press Club. There he told a different group of reporters that war with Iraq would be “unjust” and “illegal.” Said Laghi: “A decision regarding the use of military force can only be taken within the framework of the United Nations.”

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/031403/031403d.htm

Mark, you would be right if it wasn't for the fact that you are wrong.