I've got to say that some of the pictures of angry Muslims I've seen posted and their VERY violent responses kind of, well proves his point.

Better watch out Italy, the Vatican is within missile range of Iraq.

Oops, I meant within range of Iran...

I agree. If you want to prove him wrong why react violently? Religion of Peace indeed. Where's Freedom and his properly long and detailed posts about Islam when you need him. ;)

Apologize for saying Islam has a violent past...or the Religion of Peace will destroy you.

Yea...the burning the Pope in effigy...nice showcasing of your tolerance.

Retake Constantinople.

I wonder when all the idiot libs are going to chime in about how we should be sensitive and negotiate with these psychotic assholes.

"Were the religion of peace damnit and we'll kill you if you disagree."

You would think eventually the reality challenged ones would notice but I guess it will take something less subtle to awake their massive intellect.

First of all, before I get started.

Tell the moslems to STOP! and THINK!, before they ACT!!! Because God will only take so much of their foolishness.

As a Christian Nation, to fight the evil forces of Islamic,moslem, via terrorism, we must take a UNIFIED approach!!

All walks of Faith, are naturally divided, due to differing belief systems, but most (EXCLUDING Christianity) are mushy in their foundation, which is how we distinguish Islam from Christianity.

As I have stated, all religions are naturally divided. BUT, sadly to state, Christians are divided as well, due to slightly differing belief systems, this MUST NOT BE!!

Christians are divided on theological issues in the Church, but we must not let this get in the way, We can all disagree to a certain extent without running one another out of the Church.

All Christians hope for a better society and peace in the world. But how can we?? when we stay MAD at one another all the time.

IT'S THE POWER OF GOD'S LOVE THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE, FOLKS!!!

We must think in an [ecumenic] sense, the unifying power our Caring Creator wants for His people, THROUGHOUT the world!! There are no longer any barriers to be broken, Jesus Christ has already taken that grievous place upon Himself! and with Great Joy and Pride, WE SHOULD BE THANKFUL!! There is no longer room for prejudice, people of All colors and stripes must come TOGETHER as ONE in Christ!!

ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER, IN THE LIKENESS OF CHRIST!!

HELP ONE ANOTHER TO OVERCOME DIFFERENCES!!!!

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us and for our Salvation He came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the virgin Mary and was made man.
For OUR sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have NO END."

Jeremiah

Crusader,

Perhaps tongue in cheek - but it would be nice to have, once again, Christian services in Hagia Sophia.

Hello

I am a muslim and i agree with you that the reactions by the "muslims" that were violent is really bad. I assure u though that the Quran is one of the most peaceful books in the world. The problem is that we have false embassadors like Ossama. THe same happened thing happened when the hallocaust happened (which i do not deny) but there is alot of racism in every group, its just that the media isn't showing u much.

the cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist made lots of muslims mad because the european press said that this was because of free speech. What kind of free speach? The kind of free speach that denied publishing cartoons depicting jesus as a, so to speak, terrorist in April 2003. If u think that im making this up read this really short article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html

Please dont be racist against me and all of my ppl

Alot of us are good. Every religion has black sheep so dont judge us by them and if u want to say the islam is evil, READ THE QURAN THEN MAKE UP YOUR MIND. for any of u that read this far i thank u

Hani Tajsar
A PROUD MUSLIM THAT HATES TERRORISM AND LOVES TO LIVE IN AMERICA!!!!

As a Catholic, it is sad when the Muslims (the majority hate Americans) control what the Pope says and where he says it. Europe has already turned in Eurabia.....Now the Catholic world....then America......the next generation of Americans will not know anything more than cutting heads of people you do not agree with........

Jay
www.jaymundy.com

"Where's Freedom and his properly long and detailed posts about Islam when you need him. ;)" Posted by: Gozer

Heh. :) The Pope's a tough act to follow! Pope Benedict XVI-quoting the 14th century Byzantine, Christian Emperor-has already described Islam so well:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Qur'an 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Jihad: The Teaching of Islam from its Primary Sources-The Quran and Hadith is a study by Rev. Richard P. Bailey, which shows the progression of the teachings of violent jihad based on the Qur'an and Hadith. Stage 4 is the final stage of the Qur'an's progression. (Note: all of the actual Qur'an quotes are printed on the link in boldface. I've selected just a few to quote, here.)

STAGE FOUR: (AFTER CONQUERING MECCA) - OFFENSIVE WAR COMMANDED TO KILL THE PAGANS AND HUMBLE THE CHRISTIANS AND JEWS: [The Muslims continued to gain strength until the Meccans surrendered (in 630 AD). Most of the pagans of the city then became Muslims, so Mohammad and his followers were able to take over the city and cleanse the Ka’aba of some 360 idols resident there. At this point a new order was given to fit the new situation. By this time it was evident that the Jews would not accept Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, so the list of enemies now included all unbelievers - Jews and Christians as well as the pagans. Now it is no longer just defensive fighting, but aggressive Jihad against all unbelievers is commanded. Since this is the final teaching of the Quran regarding Jihad, it is what is still in force today.]

Qur'an Sura (chapter) 9:1-6 {Includes the Sword Verse 9:5}

Qur'an Sura 9:19-22 (Jihad is greater than other service, and of the highest rank in the sight of God)

Qur'an Sura 9:28 (Forbid the pagans to enter the Ka’aba)

Qur'an Sura 9:29-31 (fight against Jews and Christians until they are subdued, because God's curse is on them) "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an Sura 9:38,39,41 (Don't avoid fighting, but fight with whatever you have. Otherwise God will punish you with serious punishment.)

Qur'an Sura 9:52,73 (Muslims can expect either martyrdom/paradise or victory in battle. Unbelievers can expect only punishment from God. Fight hard against unbelievers, whose abode is hell.)

Qur'an Sura 9:81-96 (Those who are able but don't want to fight are rejected of God. Those unable are forgiven.)

Qur'an Sura 9:111 (God gives Paradise to those who give all they have to God and slay and/or are slain in Jihad.)

Qur'an Sura 9:123 (fight the unbelievers surrounding you)

Qu'ran Sura 5:36-38 (death or torture to those who oppose the Apostle) "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land."

Qur'an Sura 5:54 (Don't befriend Jews or Christians because they are unjust and unreliable) "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

I am not surprised at the Muslim outburst, same going as with the cartoon outburst. Over reaction and incoherent rage. And total hypocrisy.

They don't see that their mentality is stuck in the Middle Ages, a time of religious strife and slaughters. Christians have evolved from that. It may take Muslims another 100 years or more to become civilized. Can the West afford to wait that long?

It's just like the message the "honorable" Russ "too much Reingold" Feingold conveyed to his lemmings recently--when you call an Islamofascist and Islamofascist, you anger the Islamofascists.

Did you see the picture posted on Drudge a couple of days ago? These monsters get ginned up for violence at the drop of a hat; they're constantly looking for excuses to blame the west for their behaviour.

I admire the Pope for the way he's handling this--he's sorry for the reaction to his remarks, but stands by them.

I heard on the news this morning that a Catholice nun was murdered in Somalia. Related?

Freedom, thanks for the insight. I was listening to Laura Ingraham the other day, and she had a guest who was a Muslim professor at Georgetown, I think. He was an American of Pakistani descent, and appeared pretty fair-minded. However, when Lauar, and later a caller, brought up some of the
alleged Koran "conversion by sword" passages, he denied they existed. This is all-too-common whenever I hear one of these guys on the radio.

Tell me: are they speaking from both sides of their mouths, like libs do?

Folks, guess what starts next Saturday? Ramadan, that's what! The Muslims have to keep their masses whipped up into a frenzy of riots, smashings, killings, burning of houses, etc.
Last year it was the Mo toons. This year, it's the Pope! Brings to mind the following lyrics from Black Sabbath:

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?

I am sick and tired of the Islamic community going bonkers whenever their faith and icons are questioned and, yet, the more radical members of that faith are perfectly free to cut off the heads of innocent people. I want to believe that there are "moderates" within the Islamic faith and that they are a peaceful religion as so many of our leaders, including the President, are always saying, but I am not so sure.

Freedom1: I don't know which translation of the Qur'an you are reading, but those bold quotes are not where you say they are. I am referring to Abdullah Yusufali's translation.

Islam is a religion of hate-filled intolerant violence demonstrated by the barbaric murder of a Catholic nun in response to mere words uttered by a former emporer and the current Pope. This was a crime against God in the most fundamental way…the destruction of life over words, and proves that the original text correctly described the muslim faith.

This is muslims just being muslims. Allah requires human sacrifice. Manual II, who the Pope quoated, was 100% correct.

Islam is not a religion but a tolitarian political ideology like its children, nazism and communism. Fuse these back together and eureka; you have mama/papason Islam. If Islam was declared not a religion it would not have the benifits of a religion. I.e. have to pay taxes, etc.

Is all this apologizing c**p getting on anyone else's nerves besides mine? Whether it is demands for an apology from Islamic terrorists, the Hollywood brainless, or far left Americans, it seems like they are saying that if you just say the right magic words, then all will be ok again. These are the demands of the weak and ineffuctual. It's "Mommy talk" - soccor mommy talk and I find it deeply offensive. Is there anyone out there who would care to try to make it "more better" by giving me an apologizing to me? Didn't think so.

Macker, which Sabbath song is that? I was priming the drywall in my recently-finished basement last night, and was listening to some Sabbath. The lyrics are familiar. is it "Faieries Wear Boots?"

Maybe I should ask Canuckgay...

Never mind, Macker; Google is a wonderful tool.

It's After Forever, from the Master of Reality album...

The Pope has to be sorry. These maniacs murder.

Ahhh, Keefer. At least on this topic, I am on the same page as you knuckleheaded Bush Republican Blockheads.

Doesn't the violent reaction by some of these muslims, prove the Popes point.

REBUILD THE TOWERS!!

I don't think you'll see the Pope appologize. There is a reason the Cardinals clothes are red.

Welcome to the site, Hani.

Do we Christians of today sacrifice lambs on an alter as our ancestors did thousands of years ago? Of course not. There are many passages in the Bible (the Old Testament) stating to do things that we would not do today. Christians take the Bible spiritually, not literally. I believe it is the same with the majority of Muslims (they believe life is precious and it is against God to murder and to commit suicide). It is the extremists who take the Qur'an literally.

Hani,

It is to be hope that people of your thinking will swiftly become predominant in the Moslem world - but, right now, it seems that the hate-filled have the upper hand...Churches are being burned and people are being attacked and killed because of what the Pope said...that is just insane, and if it doesn't stop soon it really will lead to war to the death between Islam and the West.

The point that none of you seem to get is that Muslims are offended by the Pope's statement precisley because we DO NOT believe the Koran commands spreading Islam by the sword, and in fact advocates only that there is no compulsion in religion.

The verse quoted above regarding the pagans was specific to one particular battle in which a treaty was broken, where God commands the Muslims to give the pagans time to recant, and then if they don't - only then can you go to war with them. It was specific to a time and place and was not a general command.

It is no different from Exodus in the Bible where God commands Moses to slaughter the pagans, and he slaughtered some 3000 of them. Yet, we don't see the Pope going around saying that this means the Bible commands spreading Christianity by the sword.

That all said - it is also shocking to see people on this blog condemning the world's 1.2 Billions Muslims, based on the barbaric acts of some in the tiny puritan minority in the religion (the same minority that the majority has been fighting for a long time now) who will use any excuse to protest, burn, and murder.

Safraz,

Even if we deliberately and with malice aforethought were misrepresenting Islam, it doesn't justify what the Moslem world is doing in response to the Pope's statement. Are we supposed to walk on eggshells around Islam? Speak with baited breath lest we offend our Moslem masters?

I don't think so - as a man who tries to be polite, I will not watonly insult or condemn your religion, false as I believe it to be, but I will NOT bend the knee to your sensibilities. If your faith is true, then the gates of hell will not stand against it - and if it is false, then it deserves the ash heap of history. If God is with you, then the statements of a Pope make no affect whatsoever, and you should just shrug your shoulders and move on.

We're a little offended, you know, when Christians are beheaded and otherwise abused by Moslems for daring to practice their faith - we're also offended that there isn't a Church or Synagogue in Mecca...what makes you so dratted special? We allow mosques in Rome and Jerusalem...what are you Moslems afraid of?

Mark,

What you would probably be surprised to learn is that most Muslims, including myself, would agree with you.

But you can't judge the majority of the world's Muslims based on the beliefs of the puritan sect - under who's rule most of us Muslim would rather die than live under.

Muslim civilizations until 200 years ago were very open to other ideas, other beliefs, other faiths, and in fact that's why you would have found chruches, synagogues, etc. in Muslim Spain, in Muslim Jerusalem, in Turkey, Indondesia etc.

Muslims civilizations until 200 years ago were in fact at the cutting edge of the world's movement towards modernism and technological progress. A great example of this is Muslim Cordoba, which historians have credited as being the catalyst of the European renaissance (Muslim Cordoba was a center of learning where scholars, Jewish, Christian, secular, from all over the world gathered to exchange ideas).

With the advent of the puritan movements 200 years ago in Arabia came this wave of puritan Islam, that we are today battling the the world - the so Islamo-fascism as some have called it (a misnomer than brands the entire faith as fascist).

But make no mistake - the vast majority of the world's Muslims do not want to live under such a purtian regime - such as those that don't allow other religions to enter Mecca, that force people to wear certain clothing, and pray at certain times etc.

At the same time, statements by people that attack that Islamic faith as a whole, without distinguishing the extremist-purtan belief, from the majority modernist belief, have the effect of sidelining the majority modernist/moderate Muslims.

Bottom line is that there is no excuse for violence in reaction to the Pope's comments. And branding the world's Muslims as violent because of the actions of some lunatics around the world who call themselves Muslims gets us all nowhere.

The question we should ask ourselves is why is it that when we think of Muslims we think the Taliban, we think Al Qaeda beheadings, we think the bearded angry lunatics screaming in the streets against the Pope?

Why do we not instead associate Muslims with the Lion of Panshir, Ahmed Massoud, who's Northern Alliance Forces fought alongside U.S. troops to defeat Bin Laden? Why do we not think of the thousands and thousands of Muslims that are murdered each month at the hands of Al-Quaeda. Why do we not think of the vast majority of imams, whom this Friday, preached in their mosques of tolerance and world peace?

Why is it when we open Newsweek magazine, we see Taliban forces performing their five times a day Muslim praryers. Why do we NOT see Northern Alliance forces performing these same prayers?

Safraz,

I think the reason we think "al-Qaeda" when we hear "Moslem" is because the Moslems who are moderate don't raise their voice - of, if they do, they always have a "but" in there: "we condemn, but - Israel is wrong, US is bad in Iraq, etc, etc, etc..."...we want some defense of civilization without any "but" in it.

Click the link and look at these pictures!

Islamists at Westminster Cathedral

LGF, "Worshippers coming out of services at London’s Westminster Cathedral today were greeted by a gang of Islamists, reports Joee Blogs - a Catholic Londoner."-

As we came out about 100 Islamists were chanting slogans such as “Pope Benedict go to Hell,” “Pope Benedict you will pay, the Muja Hadeen are coming your way,” “Pope Benedict watch your back,” and other hateful things.

"Freedom1: I don't know which translation of the Qur'an you are reading, but those bold quotes are not where you say they are. I am referring to Abdullah Yusufali's translation."

Posted by: Retired Spy

Retired Spy, I don't know why you're having difficulties. But, if you click the Jihad link you will see that the Qur'an translations are from A. Yusuf Ali and they are printed in boldface.

Key:

"Verses from the Quran are in bold print. All are from the English translation by A. Yusuf Ali."

Hani, hello. I am glad to see speak out. I only wished more Muslims did the same. Of course, our lamestream media may not cover your speaking out as it wouldn't fit their agenda to giving the left back all power. That's what is great aout the internet.

Rest assured, there are a lot of us willing to stand alongside you in fighting those that have high-jacked your religion. We just ask that Muslims stand alongside us and wipe out those who are causing all the troubles.

Islam’s “Disproportionate Outrage”

"The question we should ask ourselves is why is it that when we think of Muslims we think the Taliban, we think Al Qaeda beheadings, we think the bearded angry lunatics screaming in the streets against the Pope?"

Because the voice of moderate Islam is muted if it exists at all. We find it absurd and ridiculous that a cartoon or a statement by a Byzantine King hundreds of years ago can drive muslims around the world to violence.

It is equally incomprehsible that both Sunni and Shi'a alike use the Koran to justify the killing of innocents and specifically the those who are not muslim...regardless of what you say about the "majority".

This is not the 7th Century, nor is it 200 years ago. unless and until you "moderate muslims" take the responsiblity to root out those readical elements amongst you, we will consider you to be at least complicit by your silence.

"branding the world's Muslims as violent because of the actions of some lunatics around the world who call themselves Muslims gets us all nowhere."

Then do something about it or we will. Its that simple.

Ahhh, Keefer. At least on this topic, I am on the same page as you knuckleheaded Bush Republican Blockheads.

Ahhh, Canuk, even a stopped clock is right twice a day...

Posted by: Safraz,

"The point that none of you seem to get is that Muslims are offended by the Pope's statement precisley because we DO NOT believe the Koran commands spreading Islam by the sword, and in fact advocates only that there is no compulsion in religion."

Uh huh. "Advocates only that there is no compulsion in religion." Accept for the fact that the Qur'an also contains the Sword Verse 9:5 which allows Muslims to compel non-Muslims to accept Islam.

"The verse quoted above regarding the pagans was specific to one particular battle in which a treaty was broken, where God commands the Muslims to give the pagans time to recant, and then if they don't - only then can you go to war with them. It was specific to a time and place and was not a general command."

This is a standard tactic of Muslim apologists. The treaty which was broken was the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, and it was Muhammad who broke the treaty.

"...where God commands the Muslims to give the pagans time to recant..."

In other words, to convert to Islam or Die.

"It was specific to a time and place and was not a general command."

Riiiiight. So what was Muhammad thinking when he forced the Tabuk tribes to: 1) convert to Islam, 2) pay the jizya tax with humilitation, or 3) die?- Timeline of Islamic Crusades:

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

From Offensive War to Spread Islam: In his book, "The Biography of the Apostle", part 4, Ibn Hisham says (page 134):

"Muhammad sent Khalid Ibn al-Walid to the tribe of the children of Haritha and told him: ‘Call them to accept Islam before you fight with them. If they respond, accept that from them, but if they refuse, fight them.’ Khalid told them: ‘Accept Islam and spare your life.’ They entered Islam by force. He brought them to Muhammad. Muhammad said to them: ‘Had you not accepted Islam I would have cast your heads under your feet"’ (refer to page 134, and also see Al Road Al Anf, part 4, pp. 217, 218. You will find the same incident).

Timeline of Islamic Crusades:

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines.

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

...And the list of offensive Muslim wars goes on and on and on....

Freedom1,

It is ironic that your quotes meant to defame Islam are all from Hadiths (and NOT the Koran) that are rejected by mainstream Islamic jurists because of their inconsitences and their questionable origin. These very Hadiths you might recall are used by Wahhabbi jurists to advocate violence against the West. Congratulations - you think exactly like Osama bin Laden.

"However, when Lauar, and later a caller, brought up some of the alleged Koran "conversion by sword" passages, he denied they existed. This is all-too-common whenever I hear one of these guys on the radio. Tell me: are they speaking from both sides of their mouths, like libs do?" Posted by: keefer

Yes. The Sword Verse Qur'an 9:5, proves that this Muslim lied when he said conversion by the sword verses don't exist in the Qur'an.

Islam allows Muslims to lie and deceive non-Muslims.

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”

Lying: (click "L", then click "Lying")-

The Traditions tell us that there are three instances where deception can be used:

"...in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

(from link:) "What was Muhammad's attitude towards lying?"

"Muhammad treated truth and deception according his own style of situational ethics. Muhammad condoned, and actually permitted, lying to further his goals:"

For example,

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." ... (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)

(from link:) "Muhammad clearly condoned dishonesty, as well as murder, when it suited his purposes."

Keefer writes "Ahhh, Canuk, even a stopped clock is right twice a day..."

Good one. Touche'

Freedom,

I especially note that a lot of the demonstrators hid their faces behind mask...those who follow false teachings are commonly afraid to show themselves in public.

Patience and charity, however, are enjoined upon Christians...we must give them another chance, and yet another...but not an endless number of chances.

Ladies and Gentleman,

Some have raised the the question - why isn't it that moderate Muslims stand up and raise their voices against extremism in Islam.

The answer my friends is simple. We moderate Muslims have been shedding real blood for 200 years in defence of our faith and our civilization against the puritans/extremists who want to subject us to authoritarian rule and take us back 1000 years in modern advances - many of these modern advancements such as modern medicine, algebra (or Al-ji-bra as they called it), being invented by Muslim civilization itself.

In other words, we have been fighting the war against Islamic puritanism (or Islamo-fasciscm as you may call it) for generations and America has only now entered the war on our side after the attack of September 11.

It is indeed a battle within Islam that we are fighting. And so much like a New Yorker has no need to come out and say - I condemn bin Laden - (because it is so obvious)- most Muslims feel the same way, because we have been under attack for 200 years by men like bin Laden and have been resisting with our blood.

The problem we moderates are facing is that bin Laden and his philosophy are winning. Not because he is right - but because many people in the Muslim world (and the world in general for that matter) feel American foreign policy is unjust - they side with bin Laden because he is America's enemy. My enemy's enemy is my friend is the game they play - a game that if you play you will always lose. America learned that lesson in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

The point I want to impress on all is that this is a war within Islam. And for those who want to cast it as a war between Islam and the West, I say to you that you will be forever lost.

The Lion of Panshir - Ahmed Masoud - was one of America's greatest friends, in the words of one CIA agent. He was a Muslim. Never forget his sacrifice. May God bless his soul.

Freedom1:

I have the translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali right in front of me, and the wording of those chapters and verses are not even similar to what you posted earlier.

To Wit:

You quote Qur'an Sura 5:54 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

My Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of 5:54 reads "O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things."

Another version reads as follows: "O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing."

Neither Jews nor Christians are specifically addressed.

Safraz,

Fair enough...but today a Catholic nun was gunned down and until the whole Moslem world starts boiling over with anger and indignation over events like that we'll be at risk of a clash between civilizations.

Mark,

For the record I condemn from depths of my soul this brutal murder of the nun in Somalia. But I again stress, that she is but one more innocent victim of the greater war we are fighting within Islam.

The problem is that we Muslims - we have no Pope. We have no one voice to do the condemnations. But there always was and will be moderate Muslim condemnation of this senseless violence. You are just not going to hear about it because it doesn't get media coverage.

On the other hand, let some nutcase claiming to be a Muslim imam - but having absolutely no training in islamic jurisprudence - issue a fatwah (a legal opinion) calling for the Pope's death - and you'll hear about it everywhere from the New York times to this blog.

The problem is that the voice of hate will always be louder because the media must sell sensation.

Safraz: with all due respect, your time is running out to take Islam back from those who would re-establish a Caliphate. That is all I will say on that.

"The point I want to impress on all is that this is a war within Islam. And for those who want to cast it as a war between Islam and the West, I say to you that you will be forever lost."

Posted by: Safraz at September 17, 2006 08:40 PM

If that's the case then why did they come over knocking our buildings down?

Why do they keep planning plots against us, and not in their own land??

I suppose you hide your face along with the rest of them cowards, huh?

WISE UP! dude, This is ALL about Western World!!!!

I guarantee you one thing, The Christian people will triumph one day, and on that day, the hand of Almighty God will reign Supreme!!

Jeremiah

Jermiah,

They came after America because they see Americans as infidels. It is important to note that they also see moderate Muslims as infidel.

In the eyes of Al Qaeda, I am no less an infidel than you are.

That said, Bin Laden has been criticized within his own organization for coming after America, because the critics felt they should have consolidated their power by defeating the moderate Muslims in the Muslim world, before coming after the sleeping giant.

Casting this as a war between Christianity and Islam plays right into the hands of Al Qaeda, as they would love for Western leaders to declare such a war, so as to shore up supporters in the rank and file of the Muslim world.

Retired Spy,

I understand your confusion, now. What you need to understand is that some Qur'an browers have slight variations in the Qur'an verse numbers. You may have to look back a few verses, or forward a few verses to find the specific Qur'an verse that you seek. For example, the "jihad link" above says:

Qur'an Sura 5:54 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors."

Another Qur'an browser, "The USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts" says: Qur'an 5:51

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Fredeeom1,

Unlike the Bible, the Koran is not written in narrative form. Thus, trying to understand Islam by picking and choosing verses from the Koran, is like trying to understand American law by picking and choosing clauses from the Constitution.

In other words, you cannot understand American constitutional law by just reading the Constitution - you also have to read the 200 years of jurisprudence that followed. In the same way, andunderstanding of the 1500 years of jurisprudence that followed the Koran is necessary to understand Islam.

Thus a careful reading of the context of the "Take not the Jews and Christians" verse will show you that it was referring to two prticular tribes of Jews and Christians whom the Muslims of Medina were at war. It makes no sense to apply that verse to all Christians and Jews, because at that very time Muhammed's strongest allies were a nearby friendly Jewish tribe that fought along side his army against the enemy Jewish tribe.

"Casting this as a war between Christianity and Islam plays right into the hands of Al Qaeda, as they would love for Western leaders to declare such a war, so as to shore up supporters in the rank and file of the Muslim world."

Posted by: Safraz

Since we did'nt start the fighting in 01 What makes you think we will start the fighting in the future??

If anyone does anything stupid it will be the Islamo-fascists, no question asked!!

Also, and this is a big IF, What IF the Western world would wage war against Islam, What would we have to worry about, Seeing that we are the most Powerful Nation in the World??

Make no mistake - We will draw the line, and when Al Qaeda crosses that line - AL QEADA WILL BE NO-MORE.

Jeremiah

Posted by: Safraz,

"It is ironic that your quotes meant to defame Islam are all from Hadiths (and NOT the Koran)..."

First, Islam defames itself. Islam is an evil, violent and misogynistic death cult. Muhammad was a child rapist, murderer, thief, conqueror and torturer. Second, I guess you missed my earlier post above, where I quoted extensively from the Qur'an. For example-

Qur'an Sura 9:29-31 (fight against Jews and Christians until they are subdued, because God's curse is on them) "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"...[Hadiths] that are rejected by mainstream Islamic jurists because of their inconsitences and their questionable origin."

Oh, please! That's ridiculous! Mainstream Islamic jurists all over the world follow the Ahadith. One major US muslim group features the Ahadith, here:USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

"These very Hadiths you might recall are used by Wahhabbi jurists to advocate violence against the West."

Yes, they are. So is the Qur'an. Muslim terrorists all over the globe quote extensively from both Islamic sources.

"Congratulations - you think exactly like Osama bin Laden."

Oh, brother. You just can't erase with stupid ad hominem attacks the fact that Islam has been spread by the sword from its very inception. Muhammad lead or participated in more than 60 battles and following his death his Muslim followers waged aggressive, offensive jihad against non-Muslims for over 400 years conquering non-Muslim lands and spreading Islam by the sword. It's historical fact.

Posted by: Safraz,

"Unlike the Bible, the Koran is not written in narrative form. Thus, trying to understand Islam by picking and choosing verses from the Koran, is like trying to understand American law by picking and choosing clauses from the Constitution."

Witness, the standard "you're quoting Islam out-of-context" line of defense.

"Thus a careful reading of the context of the 'Take not the Jews and Christians' verse will show you that..."

Yeah, right. A careful reading of the context of the (Qur'an 2:256) verse, "There is no compulsion in religion..." shows that this verse is a Meccan verse, revealed during the time Muhammad was at a disadvantage, having to deal with the strong pagans at Mecca. Later, in Medina when Muhammad was strong and had many Muslim followers, this verse was abrogated with the Verse of the Sword (Qur'an 9:5) allowing Muslims to force non-Muslims to accept Islam.

Freedom1,

First of all I love how all your "quotes" from the Koran that reference Jews and Christians are in parentheses - indicating its a translator's interpretation - a Wahabbi translator. You are quoting from the Wahhabbi Koran that the Saudis are distributing in America that corrupts the original text. It is not the Koran most Muslims adhere to.

Second, Muhammed was a general - historical fact. So was Moses, so was David. And all these men engaged in brutal wars.

But all of them recanted to the one God and embraced peace in the end. Muhammed, upon return from his very last battle said to the Muslims that the greatest jihad is about the began - the battle to win the peace in the world and within one self.

So if you denigrate Islam by referencing violent battles, why not do the same of the Bible? Or the Torah?

To say Islam was spread by the sword is one of greatest myths in the world. That Islamic generals conquered the rulers of Arabia and North Africa and Southern Spain within 100 years is historical fact. But they did not force the populations to convert because of the Koran's edict that there be no compulsion in religion.

The reason they were so succesful in conquering such vast lands in such a short time was precisely because they did not force conversions. The populations just saw it as a change in their tax collector, and not some force that was about to change their way of life and did not rebel for the most part because they were allowed to practice their own faiths under Muslim rule. Over a period of 200 to 300 years, the populations of those places slowly started to convert to Islam.

I hope you a realize that in all of history, never has a Muslim army stepped foot in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country. Islam was spread in southeast Asian by commerce and trade, not by the sword.

Freedom1,

All I can say is that you can quote those passages until you're blue, but the mass majority of Muslim jurists have studied them and their context and come to a conclusion.

Wahhabbi "scholars" have come to a more violent conclusion, that I personlly think is intellctually dishonest because they ignore some 1000 years of jurisprudence in between.

You are citing the Wahabbi conclusion and logic and it is no surprise that this leads you to believe that Islam is a religion of violence.

To each his own I guess. The Wahabbi philosophy and interpretation of the Koran and the Hadiths is precisely what we moderates are battling on the intellectual level.

It is as if a Christian Scholar came along and said, God's command for Moses to slaughter 3000 pagans in Exodus is a general command that Christians and Jews must slaughter pagans. Such an interpretation would ignore the traditions of Christianity. This is what Wahabbis have done with the Koran.

I can't see where there should be any arguement over Islam being a religion that teaches its people to "live by the sword and die by the sword". I've thought it was pretty common place and most everyone knew this. The religion teaches to "kill all infidels".

What kind of a religion is that? It's a terroristic one, who when they see people who don't serve their so revered Muhammed (sp?), then they want to kill them. The 9/11 attacks were prime example of this.

It amazes me to no end that people want to defend these tyrrants and say that we should be giving them civil rights, and complain when we subject them to the most minor of discomforts in order get information that would help to protect the people here in the Homeland. I'm sure you've all seen the big dispute about the man put in a cold room and the interrogaters had the Red Hot Chili Peppers playing real loud ... the ACLU got real upset. It's a disgusting disgrace, the ACLU needs to be disbanded, they are doing nothing but leading the country down a path of certain destruction. You think they care for U.S. citizens? I would say, obviously not, after this fiasco.

The Pope did no wrong in saying what he said, Muslims have and will continue to persecute America, because we are considered a Judeao Christian main stream society. Unless Islamics get a foot hold and a dictatorship upon America, the attacks will never stop. Let's just pray to God that another President like George Bush will be elected into office, so that the fight for freedom and security can be continued. Because right now we are upon a thresh-hold. The terrorists are slowly building back up force to initiate another attack upon America. I'm sure you've also noticed that they have caught several groups of "home grown terrorists" of late, these are basically their sleeper cells. The eyes and ears of the terrorist society. They gather as much information as possible. While it's good that these select groups were caught, we can't stop and rest there. We have to continue to make sure that we are seeking these men out, and bringing them to justice, and I honestly believe that the Republicans are the only ones willing to do this. When and if another attack comes, if we aren't equipped with people that will handle the situation or stop it dead in its tracks, it could be a sore day for America.

That's why I think it's our duty to vote Republican. The Democrats whine and crow about things like gas prices, drug costs, taxes ... well, be straight up with yourself. Are gas price and taxes gonna save anyone from terrorists? The Democrats hate this war, they hate the republicans, they disrespect the fallen soldiers by filling peoples minds with the idea that they died for nothing, when those soldiers died honorable for a just cause, a cause that they BELIEVED IN. Ask just about any soldier who has been in Iraq, and he will tell you that he is proud to serve and fight for the country.

A while back Jeremiah talked with one of our neighbors who served in the war, and now lives in Missouri. He was proud to serve, and you know what he had to say about all this? And this is honest truth, he said that the democrats were lying about everything. That's an American soldier right there talking. If you don't believe one of the boys who has been there and experienced it, and seen the front-line combat, then you might as well just move on over to Iraq.

You see, the soldiers, the Republicans, and every decent American who appreciates our troops and freedom, knows that the Democrats are lying, thieving, HYPOCRITS.

A final note: This evening in church a missionary was speaking to us. He was talking about the 23rd Psalm, and how the Lord is our Shepherd and he is watching over us and taking care of us, and his rod and staff comforts us. I greatly appreciated his message, it was wonderful, all of it. But one point that stood out to me was this that he made. Even though all these legislators and evil men around the world are trying to put God out, and reject him, God is up there just laughing, he's having a good whole hearted laugh at these peoples squandery. But one day, in the not too distant future, God is going to break these people, he is going to shatter them like a brittle piece of clay with his Iron Scepter. He is going to literally drive them asunder.

I'll tell you, that is a very ominous truth indeed. I want to be on the winning side of the battle, combating Satan and his hordes. I want to be part of the bride of Christ. I want to stand with Christ, to the very end. (Please note that it is a spiritual combat, not physical.)

Lucas.

Well... I'll tell ya what. I'm sick of hearing about and from offended Muslims. Don't want us saying you're wackos? Then clean uo your act.

Me, I'm an offended American. Yah, I'm Catholic and Republican also. But I think that mostly, I'm Amewrican. I see wackos on TV screaming hatred and burning effigy's and flags (and not ALL of them are Democrats LOL), I see people killing men, women, and children - not indiscriminately but purposefully. I hear little criticism from the Muslim world. So, well excuse me if I think that you must be OK with it.

So - you have offended me. You have attacked... me. Muslim posters, Muslim world, appologize please.

Agree Kahn, I too feel so indignant that we are not being apologized to by the hatred that we see and hear by Moslems, yet NO APOLOGIES FROM THEIR SILENT TRUE MOSLEMS, as some of the posters are claiming themselves to be. I see this, as just another excuse from the Radical Moslems to show their "hatred of America-at the drop of a hat"
If they keep this crap up, you can rest assured, that "The Sleeping Giant, is going to get really upset, and Really start to show it".....will they
(the good Moslems?) Start opening up their mouths
"PUBLICLY, TO AMERICANS, BECAUSE WE ARE OFFENDED BY THEIR OWN, WHO HAVE HIJACKED THEIR SUPPOSED 'PEACEFUL RELIGION"? They need to get out there in large numbers, to "counter what the nutcases are doing(killing a nun, rioting in the streets like savages) and let we "Christians know,
that they don't AGREE with this type of behavior"

As yet, I don't see any Moslems, except very few, who will even 'counter what the savages are doing and saying'...JUST WHERE IS THEIR INDIGNANCY OVER ALL THIS?......."STILL DON'T HEAR IT, "HERE IN OUR COUNTRY OF AMERICA".....STILL WAITING....

Agree Kahn, I too feel so indignant that we are not being apologized to by the hatred that we see and hear by Moslems, yet NO APOLOGIES FROM THEIR SILENT TRUE MOSLEMS, as some of the posters are claiming themselves to be. I see this, as just another excuse from the Radical Moslems to show their "hatred of America-at the drop of a hat"
If they keep this crap up, you can rest assured, that "The Sleeping Giant, is going to get really upset, and Really start to show it".....will they
(the good Moslems?) Start opening up their mouths
"PUBLICLY, TO AMERICANS, BECAUSE WE ARE OFFENDED BY THEIR OWN, WHO HAVE HIJACKED THEIR SUPPOSED 'PEACEFUL RELIGION"? They need to get out there in large numbers, to "counter what the nutcases are doing(killing a nun, rioting in the streets like savages) and let we "Christians know,
that they don't AGREE with this type of behavior"

As yet, I don't see any Moslems, except very few, who will even 'counter what the savages are doing and saying'...JUST WHERE IS THEIR INDIGNANCY OVER ALL THIS?......."STILL DON'T HEAR IT, HERE IN OUR COUNTRY OF AMERICA".....STILL WAITING....

Agree Kahn, I too feel so indignant that we are not being apologized to by the hatred that we see and hear by Moslems, yet NO APOLOGIES FROM THEIR SILENT TRUE MOSLEMS, as some of the posters are claiming themselves to be. I see this, as just another excuse from the Radical Moslems to show their "hatred of America-at the drop of a hat"
If they keep this crap up, you can rest assured, that "The Sleeping Giant, is going to get really upset, and Really start to show it".....will they
(the good Moslems?) Start opening up their mouths
"PUBLICLY, TO AMERICANS, BECAUSE WE ARE OFFENDED BY THEIR OWN, WHO HAVE HIJACKED THEIR SUPPOSED 'PEACEFUL RELIGION"? They need to get out there in large numbers, to "counter what the nutcases are doing(killing a nun, rioting in the streets like savages) and let we "Christians know,
that they don't AGREE with this type of behavior"

As yet, I don't see any Moslems, except very few, who will even 'counter what the savages are doing and saying'...JUST WHERE IS THEIR INDIGNANCY OVER ALL THIS?......."STILL DON'T HEAR IT, HERE IN OUR COUNTRY OF AMERICA".....STILL WAITING....

Posted by: Safraz,

"First of all I love how all your 'quotes' from the Koran that reference Jews and Christians are in parentheses - indicating its a translator's interpretation - a Wahabbi translator."

The "jihad link's" author-Rev. Richard P. Bailey- summarized each verse and put his summary within the parentheses. The actual quote begins with the "quotation" marks. I thought that you would catch on to that. My mistake. For example: Qur'an Sura 9:29-31 (fight against Jews and Christians until they are subdued, because God's curse is on them)-[Rev.Bailey's summary of verses 9:29-31] actual Qur'an quote begins here-->"Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"You are quoting from the Wahhabbi Koran that the Saudis are distributing in America that corrupts the original text. It is not the Koran most Muslims adhere to."

Desperate, much? The Quranbrowser.com has 10 different English translations of the Qur'an. Pick one. They all say about the same thing. The Qur'an is extremely hateful and violent. You can't hide that fact by claiming it's the "Wahhabbi Koran" that "corrupts the original text". BTW, this is another standard tactic of Muslim apologists.

"Second, Muhammed was a general - historical fact."

Yes, he was and he spread Islam via the sword. Thanks for affirming that.

"But all of them recanted to the one God and embraced peace in the end."

No, they didn't. Moses and David worshipped God. Allah is NOT God. Allah is a pagan idol that Muhammad elevated and made the central deity of Islam. Allah-the Moon god

"Muhammed, upon return from his very last battle said to the Muslims that the greatest jihad is about the began - the battle to win the peace in the world and within one self."

Bwahaha! Save it for someone who's uninformed about Islam. Muhammad's last words to his disciples were: “I was ordered to fight all men until they say, ‘There is no god but Allah.’”

"So if you denigrate Islam by referencing violent battles, why not do the same of the Bible? Or the Torah?"

Simple. Spreading Christianity or Judaism by the sword is a distortion of the Bible's and the Torah's teachings.

"To say Islam was spread by the sword is one of greatest myths in the world."

That's a boldfaced lie.

"That Islamic generals conquered the rulers of Arabia and North Africa and Southern Spain within 100 years is historical fact."

Yes, it is.

"But they did not force the populations to convert because of the Koran's edict that there be no compulsion in religion."

You keep forgetting to mention the Qur'an edict which allows Muslims to force non-Muslims to convert to Islam-the Sword Verse 9:5. The conquered peoples were either: 1) forced to convert to Islam, 2) forced to pay the extortion tax (jizya) as Dhimmis (second-class citizens, akin to slavery) in humiliation Qu'ran 9:29, or 3) they were slain by Muslims.

"The reason they were so succesful in conquering such vast lands in such a short time was precisely because they did not force conversions."

Oh, this is the "nice" form of offensive, bloodthirsty jihad. So much for the "religion of peace" that was "so succesful in conquering such vast lands in such a short time". Freedom and self-determination are overrated, eh?

"The populations just saw it as a change in their tax collector, and not some force that was about to change their way of life and did not rebel for the most part because they were allowed to practice their own faiths under Muslim rule."

This is BS. These people became dhimmis "protected people" and lived under dhimmitude: Answering-islam: "The state of subjection and oppression of non-Muslims under Islamic rule."

(from link): Dhimmi: "A person belonging to the category of 'protected people' (ahl ad-Dhimmah) in the Islamic state. Only those from the 'people of the Book' (Jews and Christians) can become Dhimmis and then have certain rights, like privately worshipping according to their religion, as long as they pay the 'protection money' (jizya) but are not considered citizens of the country. Their status has to be one of humiliation (Surah 9:29).

One needs to understand this term 'protected people' properly. Protected from whom? From the Muslims! It is the same dynamic as when the mafia comes to a shop owner and tells him, from now on we are protecting you, and you are going to pay us such amount of money for this protection. You will not have to bear a weapon yourself. We take that responsibility."

Dhimmi and Dhimmitude: "Yes Amrozi, we do remember Khaibar"

When Amrozi bin Nurhasin, the smiling Bali bomber, entered a Bali courtroom on the day of his sentencing, he was shouting "Jews, remember Khaibar. The army of Muhammad is coming back to defeat you." What was this Khaibar, and why should it be remembered?

In the time of Muhammad, Khaibar was a fertile oasis in the Arabian desert. It was populated by Jews, who maintained its irrigation systems and lived off its produce. When Muhammad conquered the oasis in 628, the Jews who lived there managed to negotiate a surrender. The conditions of their surrender were that some of them could remain to tend the date palms and gardens, but in return they had to pay 50% of their harvest to the Muslims. The land itself would henceforth belong to the Muslim community. The Jews of Khaibar were also granted permission to keep practising their faith. Soon after, the Arab Christians of Najran were forced to accept the same conditions.

The right of the Jews of Khaibar to stay on their former lands was a temporary concession, withdrawn in 640 by Umar, in obedience to Muhammad’s dying wish: ‘Two religions shall not remain together in the peninsula of the Arabs’. In this same year the whole of Arabia was cleansed of non-Muslims.

Khaibar is a name all Muslims jurists will recognize, since it was the conquest of Khaibar which set the precedent in Islamic case law for the subsequent treatment of non-Muslims who surrendered to Islamic conquest and rule. (Khaibar also provided Muhammad with one of his wives, Safiya, a leading Jewish woman of Khaibar whom he selected for himself from among the enslaved captives.)

The discriminatory shari’a regulations applying to non-Muslims, who are referred to in Islamic law as dhimmis, are based upon the precedent of Khaibar. Through a twist of history the defeat of the Jews of this little-known Arabian oasis helped determine the treatment of many millions of non-Muslims after Islamic conquest, including the once-vast Christian populations of the Middle East.

Posted by: Safraz,

"All I can say is that you can quote those passages until you're blue, but the mass majority of Muslim jurists have studied them and their context and come to a conclusion."

"Wahhabbi 'scholars' have come to a more violent conclusion, that I personlly think is intellctually dishonest because they ignore some 1000 years of jurisprudence in between."

Uh huh. Riiight. That would explain the 13 centuries of forced conversions to Islam. The American Thinker, by Andrew Bostom:

Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional—they have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century). But the list is much longer yet. The Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran. During the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.

Moreover, during jihad—even the jihad campaigns of the 20th century [i.e., the jihad genocide of the Armenians during World War I, the Moplah jihad in Southern India [1921], the jihad against the Assyrians of Iraq in the early 1930s, the jihads against the Chinese of Indonesia and the Christian Ibo of southern Nigeria in the 1960s, and the jihad against the Christians and Animists of the southern Sudan from 1983 to 2001], the (dubious) concept of “no compulsion” (Koran 2:256; which was cited with tragic irony during the Fox reporters “confessional”!), has always been meaningless.

Freedom1,

How did Islam come to Indonesia? Can you tell us which Muslim army converted the Indonesians, the world's largest Muslim country?

I grew up in a country that was once a British colony - where my grandparents could not go to school, because they were not Christian and would only be able to do so if the converted. Same thing with prestigious government jobs. That was British Empire policy in the 20th Century in some of its colonies!

My point is that the Islamic Empires did the same thing - there was institutional discrimination that led people to convert because it was the easier path. So there was no more conversion by the sword than there was in Christianty.

My dialogue with you will now come to and end, because from your last post I realize that you are never going to get it.

First, your knowledge of Islamic history is deeply flawed, if not purposefully distorted to meet your own ends.

Second, you are never going to get that the same sins committed by Islam were committed by Christianity. That for every violent verse in the Koran there is one in the Bible.

That mainstream Islamic and Christian scholars have interpreted these violent verses in their respective texts to apply to certain situtions, and not as edicts by God to massacre people.

That just like Christian extremists interpreted the Bible to give their armies permission to massacre the natives in America, Al Qaeda and the Wahhabbis are interpreting the Koran to massacre people who don't share their radical belieffs.

Finally, how does a Jew or Christian speaking Arabic say the word God? Allah. It's a word that means God.

Muhammed's message was that there is no god but God - the one God. He specifically said that this one God was the God of Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, David, Jesus. What God is this? An idol?

Thank you, Safraz, for your balanced view of the ongoing struggle within Islam and the realities of the underpinnings of that struggle. Freedom1 will continue to selectively quote passages from the Qur'an. That is OK too - as long as it helps us all to investigate all points of view and think things through with facts and reason amd mutual respect for philosophies of love and kindness.

We all need to look at all points of view. It is difficult in the wake of continued threats and actions by the radicals, but to do otherwise will threaten all of civilization. All Christians and Jews and Muslims should be working together to eliminate all the radicals among us.

OK - good. So Safraz when will Indonesia be joining us in fighting the wackos? Tell me, was anyone convicted of murdering all those Autralians in Bali with bombs? What was their punishment?

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/cgi-bin/news/newsbrief.plx?id=2248582204&fa=1

"Indonesia Reduces Bali Bombing Convict's Sentence

August 17, 2005 11:05 a.m. EST

Niladri Sekhar Nath - All Headline News Foreign Correspondant

Jakarta, Indonesia (AHN) - Indonesia reduces a 30-month prison sentence imposed on the Bali bombing mastermind by more than four months, triggering dissent in Australia.

Muslim cleric Abu Bakar Bashir was sentenced for being a part of the conspiracy to execute the Bali bombings. The militant cleric was sentenced in March for being in involved in a criminal conspiracy for carrying out bombings in nightclub in October 2002.

In all, 202 people including 88 Australians were killed in the explosion. However, Bashir was cleared of more serious charges of masterminding terrorist attacks.

Dedi Sutardi, head of Cipinang prison in Jakarta where Bashir is being held, announced that Bashir's term has been cut by four months and 15 days.

The authorities have done this to mark Indonesia's Independence Day. "Abu Bakar Bashir deserves a remission because he is behaving very well. All he does in prison is devote himself to religious service," AFP quoted Sutardi as saying. Sutardi expects that Bashir will be freed by April next year. The remission has been condemned by the relatives and friends of the victims in Australia. A spokesman for Foreign Minister Alexander Downer says that they will be disappointed if the reduction in sentence is officially confirmed."

The very best and most effective way to handle the likes of Abu Bakar Bashir is through the hiring of international hitmen.

Where can I sign up?

I mean heck Safraz, 2 years and 2 months for killing 202 people seems reasonable to you? This is what the peace loving and moderate Indonesia has to offer?

Posted by: Safraz,

"Can you tell us which Muslim army converted the Indonesians, the world's largest Muslim country?"

I've got a better idea. Why don't I highlight what's happening today, in Indonesia the world's largest Muslim country. It's absolutely frightening. Here's a search of news articles about Indonesia. LGF Search: Indonesia There are many horrific stories about what's happening amongst Indonesia's Muslim population. I'm just going to highlight two of them. Remember folks, Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population. There are a lot of violent Muslims in Indonesia.

Indonesia's Tiny Minority of Extremists

LGF,"A survey of Indonesian Muslims by the Center for Islamic and Social Studies shows that more than 40% are ready to wage war against non-Muslims:"