Religion and science are by no means incompatible. Some of the great scientific discoveries have been made by religious people. The Vatican itself runs one of the world's premiere astronomical observatories.

It is when science denies the existence of the Creator when mankind gets into trouble.

For in denying the Creator's existence, they themselves become 'god', and think themselves fit to make divine level decisions about death and life, etc.,

By the same token, when Religion denies the existence of physical law and other observable scientific fact, it too runs a grave risk of allowing the wonders of our Savior's creation to be discovered.

Actually should have read,

"they run the risk of not allowing the wonders of our Savior's creation to be discovered."

Long day!

I firmly believe that God gave man (and woman) the ability to reason, see logic, and appreaciate the wonder of His creations. We can learn, grow, and study the physical laws, then wonder at the beauty of it all.

Very few people, religious or not, have an appreciation for scientific method. Scientific method requires us to withhold judgement, observe something,come up with a way to explain it, then test that explanation under different conditions.

Instead, people have a natural tendency to start with an answer, then selectively use information to support their view.

Science is a way of finding the "truth" (as perceived by the senses) of physical phenomenon, but it won't tell you how to live your life or what is "good" and "bad" (much less "good" or "evil"). Science can tell you the outcome of your actions (or those of others), but not whether the outcome is desirable. In order to determine that, we have to do what we call "thinking".

This is where the debate about science really is.... people think there is a battle between religion and science; it is really about the dichotomy between "revealed" moral truth and those who go it alone, draw on human experience, and make judgements for themselves.

The reason I think that the false-god of science is dead is in the fact that science cannot plan for the future! It never has and never will!

Even more disturbing though is that many but not all scientists use their present and past discoveries to spew forth their illogical view of evolution as fact, and yet, at the same time they don't even know how they were endowed with the knowledge to get their results!!
You know what I mean?, they say fact,fact FACT! Like a bunch of two-year olds who bring a toad into the house to show mommy!!

I know it must exciting and all to be a scientist and make discoveries of this great earth that we live in, but for people to loose all sense of reason and REALITY to hold up some findings of Creation to try and prove the non-existence of a Creator is just plain ridiculous!!

So, My definition of a combination of faith and reason concerning science:

First of all, we must NOT loose hindsight into the basic awareness of How did this world and everthing surrounding it come to be? Simple, Almighty God!!

Second and lastly, We must have Faith in God in order for REASON to have meaning!!
For them to work in harmony so to speak!!
Or like this, Without one you can't have the other!

BTW....Mark, I want you to know that I really appreciate you making threads on faith!
You doing a great service to our Nation!!
I AM REALLY THANKFUL!!

God bless!!

Jeremiah

Mark,

Faith and reason are not incompatible, they are mutually exclusive. Science and Reason deals with what can be proven true or false. Faith deals with what can’t.

Jeremiah,

How anyone was “endowed” with knowledge has nothing to do with whether or not evolution is a fact.

Nobody is trying to prove the non-existence of a creator. Whether or not one exists has nothing to do with science until someone provides some hard evidence.

Leo and kjs,

Great posts, both of you!!

It's really Great to know that others are willing to stand up for our magnificent Creator!!!

Jeremiah

The worship of the Global Warming god has got to slap the real God in the face. People are starving and dying around the world and we want to use false science to justify social policy? That is an insult to humanity and a poor use of resources at the very least.

The title of this post demanded a response.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=religion+IQ

"The broad consensus of research shows that people with higher IQs tend to be less religious, not more so."

"Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022)."

I knew about this correlation from my own experiences, but didn't realize how many studies had been done on it.

Do you suppose it religion that makes them dumb, or intelligence that keeps them from buying religion?

I have to wonder, where this puts Jeremiah.

"they don't even know how they were endowed with the knowledge to get their results"
I'm sorry you don't have the ability to grasp a subject like this without believing in God, I do understand the complexities of evolution. I would explain it to you, except I understand that you have a huge obstacle to get past, and I honestly don't believe you to be capable of comprehending it.

My history of religion and IQ goes like this. At 5 years old I rejected religion in Sunday School. After moving to California in 3rd grade, I quit doing school work because I was 2 years ahead from going to school in Minnesota and Idaho. I was sent in for an evaluation and tested above 120 IQ and well above my grade level. I rebelled again in 7th grade and sent back for evaluation with the same results. I left school 2 years early, with military recruiters promising me anything I wanted after taking the ASVAB. Fourteen years later during an aptitude test, the same IQ test was given to me again, the test is a progressive matrices designed to test an average IQ range, that time I completed it with 100% accuracy. To this day I'm a firm atheist, with very few unanswered questions. Both my parents are religious along with my 2 sisters.

hmmmm......I feel for you James. Intelligence can be such an obstacle between man and God almighty! You my friend are living proof here on earth that pride & arrogance truly were the fall of satan, and so it passes down through the ages. I would personally hate live such a baseless pathetic existance, of course this may be fine for you, living day to day knowing without a shadow of a doubt that someday, maybe later, maybe sooner, you will pass into oblivion and be no more. Well, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I will live in that liberal utopia you atheists dream about! No more crying, no more pain, no more suffering, no more hunger, no more dictators passing you through paper shredders, no more AIR AMERICA, yipee!!! AAAHHHHHHHH, the hope for the future is found in .............FAITH, not atheism!

James,

And you're so modest, too.

Geesh, get over yourself.

I'm sure there are a huge number of self-serving studies - created by un- and anti-religious types eager to rationalise their views - alledging that we believers just aren't that bright...that because we're rather slow in the intellectual area, we fall for religion. It is rather pathetic that you need to think someone low in order to have a high opinion of yourself.

Meanwhile, you haven't shown even the slightest ability to even comprehend what the Pope said, let alone refute any of it again.

Tell ya what - I pray that some day you will turn towards God and tap in to real knowledge...that you will come along with us, and actually understand the world.

Brian,

Reason without faith is a worthless thing - it is cut off from what is essentially human and thus has nothing to offer to humanity. It is a bridge to nowhere, a pointless exercise.

What is really rather amusing about it, however, is how much the false-god science demands we take on faith (cf, Evolution) all the while insisting that faith can have nothing to do with reason.

"Reason without faith is a worthless thing." So true, Mark. Don't have much time this morning to "blog" but wanted to share 2 Bible verses that have popped into my head - don't know the references off hand but they do address both faith and reason....."Without faith it is impossible to please Him." and "Come let us reason together saith the Lord...." Just knowing that the Master addresses both topics just proves to me once again that the Bible is indeed the roadmap to life and when followed, gives us much success! A great day to all! :)

It is when science denies the existence of the Creator when mankind gets into trouble.

Science does not and cannot deny the existence of anything; therefore you must blame mankind's trouble on something other than science. It is quite apparent that many conservatives on this site do not understand how science actually works.

People tend to confuse a few things when it comes to reason.

For instance... (according to Bernard Gert, Stone Professor of Intellectual and Moral Philosophy and Dartmouth College) as long as one has a justification for a belief (or the way that they rank certain harms and benefits), that belief is rational and reasonable. Reason and rationality are mainly logical, and not factual concepts. As long as their is justification for an action, whether or not that justification is backed up by facts is not a question. According to this way of thinking, to which I subscribe, a rational action i/.sn't necessarily moral, yet a moral action has to be rational.

A common misconception among secularists is equating rationality and reason with empiricism. I admit that I have been guilty of this in the past, and I have done this until recently. The fact of the matter is, as I have stated before, you can use unobservable justifications to rationalize beliefs and actions.

In my opinion (with much influence from the late, great philosopher A J Ayer), however, in order to have a meaningful debate about a topic, you have to argue facts. To argue intangible and quite possibly arbitrary beliefs based on non-observable facts, like religion, is equivalent to trying to convince someone to choose a new favorite color.

Resorting to "God did It" is perfectly rationable and reasonable, but it is not the basis for a meaningful conversation. According to Ayer, two of the most meaningless statements that one can say are: "God exists." and "God does not exist."

Though they may have meaning to an individual or a group, it is not the type of statement that can be backed-up by tangible, empirical facts, and thusly can't be debated meaningfully.

So when you debate something like Evolution... stick to something that can be backed up by tangible, empirical facts... and no... the bible doesn't count as empirical...

Mark,

That is what I was trying to say - that the false-god Science was dead; that the attempt to set up a system of thinking in which faith and reason are considered opposites and incompatible is dead. It still has its adherents, just as the equally dead false-gods of Communism and Fascism still claim adherents, but it is dead all the same.

It is people like you who create this false dichtomony. Any thinking scientist will state that there is a limit, a constantly changing limit, to human knowledge. Faith, as long as it doesn't directly contradict proven truths, is not in the slightest bit irrational. The word "reason" cannot be applied to pure faith. I know no one, not even an atheist, who would go that far.

But it's people like you who try so hard to politicize science and attack those who study things that make you uncomfortable, creating this group of "others" who are out to "destroy" religion. Besides falling for Rovian divisiveness, it's just plain intellectually lazy. People who disagree with you are not necessarily out to get you.

we want to use false science to justify social policy?

I know--it's completely disgusting how the GOP will tell bald-faced lies about science to justify its stances on everything from evolution to sex ed.

Noonan: Still clinging to that "reason without faith is useless" security blankie, hmm?

Ah James I feel for you, humiliated with a 120+, no wonder that you are so bitter. I have been more fortunate.

I agree that early on I saw the imperfection of practiced religion. The flawed practitioners so glaring and contradictory. I too walked, no ran to distance myself from such weakness and self-loathing.

I do "believe" I remained open and teachable though. I witnessed the births of my children, the question begs to be asked, as humans did we come about by some freak chance of gasses mixing in a swamp?

I questioned the passing of loved ones.

I became a huge fan of photography and that I think may be what opened more doors I thought closed. Where did all this beauty come from? Have you ever really looked at a flower close up? Stood in a field on top of a mountain range, surrounded by butterflies, deer, bees and rabbits?

Does science alone provide an answer? For every answer there were too many questions raised and if I probed too deeply I was told to just have "faith" that everything was in order and correct. After all there's always some other book or paper with other theories.

Over time of course, with weddings, deaths, baptisms I found myself surrounded by my old "faith", it's rituals, it's people and it's trappings. Being an open person who could still learn I found myself, not in a place of contention or derision, but for the first time perhaps that I was able to look beyond the messenger and actually heard the "message." "and it was good"

Being smart didn't bring me happiness; in fact I think it caused me a fair amount of misery. Actually I'm somewhat ashamed I didn't do something with it for the betterment of mankind (aside from professionally helping republicans get elected that is).

I’m still not what I would consider a “religious” person, but I have found spirituality and a profound belief in god, through that I’ve found peace.

James,

I know that I am not very intelligent! I have struggled my entire life with decisions and learning! I wish I could say that I was perfect from day one, but I can't, because I am only human! Because of Sin - man was punished, and now, mankind has to labor by the sweat of his brow! dealing with the hardship that was placed upon him!!

One thing I know for sure though, and that is...that I want to follow Jesus, and I want to meet Him some day, and also...I care for other people, because many people do not understand why they feel the way they do, sadness heartache, and just the general pain of life itself, You know why? It's because they do not know Jesus Christ! They fail to realize that He is their comfort, and thus, If they do not turn to Him in prayer and fasting, they can expect to be un-happy with life, Like the saying goes: "SIN WILL TAKE YOU FARTHER THAN YOU WILL WANT TO GO" and I say that in wholehearted agreement!.

As for myself though? I am content with life the way I am, Jesus gives me reason to live, because I know I will meet the master some day, and O What a Glorious day that will be!!

Ya know, James? You can be happy with life!! God has given you a Great gift of knowledge, why not use your knowledge to Glorify and uplift your Caring and Wonderful Creator??!!!

James, You know what God said to Himself? He said, I can't let all mankind perish because of his sin I must send an example and an atonement for My likeness and to cover the sin of the WHOLE world, and that's when He sent His Son Jesus Christ!, to die on an Old Rugged Cross upon Mt. Calvary!! So that man might have an escape from this old sinful world, Yes, James, Including You!!

Accept Jesus today!!!!! and He'll give you a whole NEW outlook on life, and purpose for another tomorrow!!

:)

Jeremiah

"most meaningless statement that one can say is: "God exists."

Georgee Frawg,

You are in terrible err,

To say that God exists is plain and common GOOD SENSE!!

Now to say that "God does not exist" is a lack of sense PERIOD!!

Listen up Frawg, God has done provided everything on planet earth for ALL including YOU to see, in broad daylight; what His MIRACULOUS wonders have done, and since He's done created everything, He's now given you a choice or to BELIEVE or not to believe, and He's also done stated plainly in the bible what is going to happen If we do not believe!! A risk really NOT worth the taking, not to scare anyone, But still, God loved you so much!! you'd think that you would want to serve Him.

So, again, I would THINK, That YOU would want to have a little faith!!!

Why not you??

Jeremiah

Winnow,

Ah, but yes it can - faith, indeed, can stand up to the most fierce scruitiny of reason - God is the source of reason, Winnow, and faith in Him can never be contradicted by reason.

Winnow,

Like this - the only time a seemingly rational argument against faith seems plausible is when it is used on someone who wants to have his lack of faith justified. People of faith sometimes laugh at such arguments, but mostly feel sorry for those who make them and those who fall for them...its just so sad to see pipsqueek humans trying to understand it all without faith...it is the infinitismal attempting to explain the infinite.

Sunshine,

True, very true...and all those years I wasted trying to figure it out on my own! I can laugh at it now, but what a fool I was.

Did you know that I actually used to think that I could clean myself up and present myself to God essentially as a saved being, worthy of His best efforts? It was only when I turned towards God and, as it were, tapped in to ultimate Reason that I began to really understand - mostly understanding how little I understood, but also suddenly willing to take instruction from our Lord.

What a wonderful testimony, Mark! :) Recently I have had to go to the Lord through a "storm" that hit quite quickly in my life - I know a lot of us get them daily! But this one hit me like a tornado and I'm still in its spin, but once again going to Christ and his roadmap...Where Faith and Reason help me sail through - but what gets me safely to shore is His unconditional love for me.

Thankfully, I have been a Believer since I was about 10 - I'm 42 now - and I'm thankful that I didn't go through some things a lot in our generation have. But I don't say this boastfully, but with such gratitute.

A wonderful Christian guy that I used to work with once said to me to not feel bad about my "boring" testimony because he did so many things that he regretted prior to salvation, and those memories were still with him and he couldn't get them out of his mind.

I am unable to discuss Faith and Reason intellectually, as our fellow-bloggers do so well, but I hope those of us on the "heart and soul" side of it are understood as well....

Jeremiah,
It may be best for you to just hang on to your faith, for some people it gets them through life. I find comfort in knowing that when your time comes there will be no disappointment. I do not believe there will be a creator for you to meet, and in that case there will be no presence of mind to feel betrayed. I do hope you will live your life as the only one you get. I hate to think religious people are tender-footing it here, with the expectation that when this is over the best is yet to come.

I would like to welcome you to my world for a moment.

Depression has a purpose and a source in evolution. For the survival of our species, depression played an important role. When a death occurs, a possible danger is present. Depression will cause you to draw in, stop eating, and attempt to keep loved ones close. That tendency would keep you alive in many cases, allowing you to pass your genetics on. Genetics without that tendency will die off.

Being a parent brought me closer to religion, in an understanding of who wrote the bible and why. Being a parent and understanding religion, brought me more faith than religion ever could have. I will explain the origins of the bible to you sometime if you wish. What the bible is and how it came to be is more fulfilling than what is in the book.

I found out today that one of my cousins died recently. He was like a brother to me, and I loved him a lot. I don't know what happened yet, it may have been a suicide, it may have been a drug over-dose. I know what his life was like and what he's been through, although I will miss him, I'm happy for him. Not because he's gone to a better place, but because he will never feel regret, sadness, shame, or want for anything, he is done with all the harshness life has dealt him. I look forward to a long life, but I don't fear death, my only problem with it is, I will leave people behind that are not ready to let me go. These people bring me a happiness and faith that no god could ever match.

James,

Very sad to hear about your cousin, I will say a special prayer for you and your family today!

I know your pain. I had a cousin who died very young several years ago, he could not deal with the stress of life any longer, his parents did'nt take him to church, and his younger brother is a really,really rebellious child, he curses his parents, has been on drugs, his life is just a total wreck now.
This family is a classic example of what happens when you leave out something. Something that binds a family together, with love,joy,peace and happiness.

James, No need for you to worry about me holding on to my faith, because my faith - is what will see me through this life, and into a brand new one, If I would reject God and his eternal blessings for me?? I would definitely seal my fate, But, Praise God that's not going to happen!!

"Because He lives I can face tomorrow"
"Because He lives all fear is GONE"
"Because I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives"

Jesus is the way James! Accept Him into your life and He'll take all that depression away, and give you a brighter more happier outlook on life!!

Jesus died for me and He died for you, and You know, He died willfuly so that you might accept Him and have ETERNAL LIFE!!

James? Please don't reject Jesus!!

Jeremiah

faith, indeed, can stand up to the most fierce scruitiny of reason

Ha! Oh, you meant that for real. Umm...no it can't. Not even close. I guess it seems like it can if you think "God did it" is an acceptable reason/explanation for anything and everything, but if you demand some actual, you know, proof, then faith crumbles pretty quickly.

Sunshine,

Your friend is right - all of the horrible things I've done come back from time to time to haunt me...not so much as guilt (they are forgiven), but as regret...regret for what I should have done, and didn't...and worry that those who participated with me might not have come 'round to understanding and salvation. I wish that I had never done, seen or said 10,000 things which clutter my mind.

James,

Perhaps, one day, you'll actually understand where the Bible comes from, and understand that the message it brings is far more wonderful than anything you can possibly imagine in the best possible world for the rest of your life here on earth.

I'll say a prayer for your cousin - but he knows now far more than you, and my hope is that he is now praying for you.

"you know, proof"

posted by: Seesthroughit.
..................................................

What? You mean the whole entire world, the entire sky, and all the planets!!!!

What more "proof" do you need?

Jeremiah

James,
If you look closer at the negative relationship between religiosity and intelligence tests, there's something more going on here. Level of formal education has a positive relationship with years of formal education. That is, those who completed graduated school are most likely to attend church weekly, followed by those with Bachelor's degrees, followed by those with high school diplomas, etc. This is from the General Social Survey in 2004.

This brings up the question of how to resolve the apparent discrepancy, but I don't think it's terribly difficult to do. Many people put their faith in the ability of knowledge, such as verbal and mathmatical and analytical knowledge commonly measured by intelligence tests (notably, these are only three types, and science has yet to put much energy into measuring spiritual or mystical intelligence at this point, or artistic intelligence or musical intelligence or any other intelligence that can't be measured well in a systemic way because it is esthetic, a more fluid intelligence than the crystalized intelligences commonly measured in intelligence tests).

But this is to the point. Life is at least at the apparent level in flux, changing unpredictably. And the fact that intelligence tests like the SAT aren't as good a predictor of performance in terms of completing most degree programs (with the exception of degree programs whose completion relies on a set of systemic, crystalized knowledge and the intelligence tests that measure that knowledge before the students begin their programs) as are for instance previous GPA, recommendations from teachers, or even participation in organized sports suggests that there is something missing in them, a measure of motivation, a solid ground on which that knowledge may rest.

Knowing mathmatical formulas or rules of grammar may help you get from point A to point B, but it doesn't help you want to get from point A to point B, or give you a reason to do so. Most religions suggest compassion to be the guiding purpose, above even faith (faith without works), but in truth without lasting faith there's often not the motivation to complete the works.

Georgia,
But why can't people's experiences which they themselves observed be counted as facts? Why can't it count to your mind as a fact that spirituality provides a holistic attitude towards life that accounts for those who are more spiritual and religions being better at coping and being happy? And if they did accept these facts, why don't they recommend incorporating spirituality and religion into the curriculum of children unless they distrust their own methodology. Why is it they don't want children to ask the questions that appear according to scientific methods to predict better lives, better functioning, and more happiness?

Why can't mystical experiences count as facts? If facts are limited to those things everyone can observe, then aren't scientists preaching to their own choir in a way--talking about how they can predict that which they can observe and avoiding the tough questions that they can't observe or explain or predict?

What I mean is, science claims to exist in part to explain the unknown. So why is it at this point in history they can't accept something unless they already know how to predict it by their methods? Why are they unwilling to change their methods to answer the very questions they pretend to exist to answer?

Why are religious questions that of their nature have to do with a relationship with the unseen, with that which is beyond our current knowledge, so offensive that scientists will not even discuss them in their classes or admit to their existence?

My apologies, in the first paragraph I meant to write years of formal education positively correlate with weekly church attendance.

"So why is it at this point in history they can't accept something unless they already know how to predict it by their methods?"

That's a great question Morris. Why is science so tied down to being scientific?

It got me thinking. Why are priests always talking about faith? Why not instead of reading the Bible during sermons, give an equation that will fulfill the laity's curiosity into the unknown?

Andrew,
You respond:
"Why is science so tied down to being scientific?
It got me thinking. Why are priests always talking about faith? Why not instead of reading the Bible during sermons, give an equation that will fulfill the laity's curiosity into the unknown?"

And that's exactly the point. Priests accept that there are some things which no equation exists to explain. When did "being scientific" come to mean "rejecting science," because that's what they're doing? They're either saying they don't care about children or that they don't care about being a voice in what it is that children learn. And we know that they do care about what children learn because of the long list who came out against teaching ID or creationism as well as evolution by natural selection.

So what I read into their actions is it's more important to them that they keep doing things the way they've been doing without adapting that it is to accept that human beings improve their lot by incorporating some sort of faith and the happiness and improved coping skills that go with it. The scientific method of this research isn't being challenged. So why are they only interested in the politics of education when the conclusion fits their agenda even when it is another conclusion that fits their method?