Well Mark this is one of those areas we disagree on. I wholly agree in abstinance and morality but I'm not against Plan B as I know you are. I'm fine with Plan B being OTC for 18 year olds and over, but for minors it should be only as a perscription. That way at least some adults know this girl is sexually active and should raise some flags.

Though this is just the latest simptom of the larger "sexual revolution" issue as you mention. I look forward to seeing how this discussion goes. :)

If only 3more's parents had access to this pill when he was conceived...

In the first place, I put more blame upon MTV, the fashion industry, and the cosmetics industry for the increase in sexual behavior among 14+ girls, than I do the pharmaceuticals industry.
In the second place, use of the pills will probably cut the abortion rate somewhat.

In the third place, older men have never needed any help seducing 14 year olds. Candy and lies have been good enough for generations.

Some things, Mark, you have to accept and deal with, whether it is terrorism or teen sex. Plan B is a band-aid, but it at least stops the bleeding for now.
It's the Democrat way to refuse to see a truth, or deal with one. If you have a working alternative, please shout it from the rooftops. Otherwise, don't mock the current band-aid.

Hick,

It is a band-aid - and its being used to staunch aterial bleeding...much better if we just just sexual liberation and start properly instructed our young men and women on how ladies and gentlemen are supposed to behave.

Gozer,

It was a process which brought me to this point, and I wasn't really completed until just a couple years ago. Give it time, you'll see.

Sex happens. Anyone who thinks otherwise is idealogically driven or a moran.

Male female relations is hardwireded into all of us and is only slowed by society's standards... whatever those standards are, men and women, boys and girls are going to have sex. We can either embrace contraceptives and pills like plan b, or we can live in a fantasy world... that's not saying we can't raise our children not to have sex at a young age or to wait before the "right time" to have sex, but we there is no way in hell we can force humanity not to have sex... rubbers, plan b, and yes, on occassion, abortions, are the responsible way to handle male/female relations in today's world. You all can get on your soap box and condemn all you like, but you can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Mark,

While I believe the teaching of abstinence, morality, and an understanding of consequences for our actions is important, I am glad that birth control is more readily available. I have had friends who have faced unplanned pregnancies. Each reacted in a different way, each time. There is no easy answer, except to avoid getting pregnant. Given that, Plan B is another item in the arsenal. When abstinance has failed, or rape has happened, this is a way to prevent further heart ache. Not perfect, but then neither are human beings.

Sex happens. Anyone who thinks otherwise is idealogically driven or a moran.

Spoken like a true Clinton sycophant. "Moran?"
Isn't "Moran" a kook congressman from Virginia? Moran/moron--no difference...

Good Sunday to one and all....Where I attend church, yes, abstinence before marriage is taught because the Bible clearly states that that is the way God wants it. Yes, of course, one must believe the Bible and the interpretation of fornication and adultery. If one doesn't "buy" that, well, yes, they aren't going to agree.

Tom, I'm not "condemning" folks who are "for" Plan B, the only One who can condemn people is God. Since I'm new here I don't know if you believe in God or not....you must, since you believe in wanting us on the opposing view to go to hell. :)

If you truly love the Lord and truly love the person you are dating, you can wait before marriage. Yes, temptation can come and one can give in and then in some cases the birth control didn't work and there is an "Oops." The unborn child should not be the scapegoat and be blown away. To add murder on top of fornication or adultery only makes matters worse.

I know this sounds "archaic" to many, but, you know, it's okay.....When you know the truth, the truth indeed does set you free and you don't care what people call you and say to you because you are at peace with God. :)

Hope to "talk" with you all later. :) Peace....

Mark -

You make it sound like all sexually active 16 yo girls are only having sex because they have fallen prey to dirty old men. I haven't seen any stats on this (doubt they exist), but I have a pretty good suspicion that the vast majority of 14-18 yo girls are having sex with... other 14-18 yo boys.

The other interesting assumption you make is that the 14 yo girl you saw in the drug store would not have had sex if the clerk hadn't sold her the condoms. To my mind, if a young girl is risking the embarassment of going to buy condoms at her young age, I would imagine she has already made the decision to have sex, or more likely is already having sex.

Third, you assume that girls having premarital sex in their teens is tantamount to "ruining a young life" (btw, why the focus on just girls?). Well, I certainly would not condone having sex at 14, and there are potentially life ruining risks to teenage sex, yes. But at the same time, there are many (if not most of us!) who have experimented with sex in their teens who go on to lead happy and productive lives (imagine that!). Some of us regret our first dalliances to variaious degrees, and truth be told, quite a lot of us had great experiences (and I guess some had no experiences at all, and grew up to become sexually frustrated Republicans!)

I know you wingers are used to portraying premarital sex as this horrible sinful life-ruining abomination, but relying entirely on such warped scare tactics is no substitute for good health policy. Like drugs, the best way to mitigate potentially harmful use at too young an age is to be very honest with teens about the entire subject, including the risks involved.

There is nothing that makes teens more curious about something than making the subject taboo. And there is no faster way for adults to lose credibility in the eyes of youth than by engaging in scare tactics. But then again, fear is what you Bushians do best...

Third, you assume that girls having premarital sex in their teens is tantamount to "ruining a young life" (btw, why the focus on just girls?).

The trouble is that popular culture has gone to the other extreme, especially with regards to young men, as if virginity and sexual abstinence are the most monstrous evils imaginable. If you're not "getting some", there must be something horribly wrong with you.

Yes, we should be honest about sex and drugs with young people. Part, and please note that I'm saying "part", of that honesty should be a discussion of abstinence, and a de-stigmatization of virginity. (I think there was an public serivce announcement a few years back that said something like, "Virgin, it's not a dirty word.") Just as the Victorians were scared out of their minds that someone, somewhere out there, is having sex and enjoying it, wingers of the other side are scared out of their minds that someone, somewhere out there, could be having sex but is not.

FWIW, I have yet to form an opinion on Plan B per se, but I can understand Mark's concerns about underage use. As with condoms, the dilemna is that on one hand, we don't want to be seen as encouraging underage sex, but on the other hand, we don't want them catching STD's if they have sex.

Again, keef can only comment on a typo... maybe you should look for a job as an editor...

sunshine, yes I believe in god, and i don't actually want you or people who attack others for having sex or promoting contraceptives to go to hell, but such acts to get my blood boiling.

Mark, if teens weren't supposed to have sex, why did god allow them to become pregnant and give them hormones that kick in during their teenage years?

Some things we know:
1) it is impossible to legislate morality
2) it is impossible to legislate sexuality
3) it is impossible to get people who feel 'anointed' to understand the veracity of the first 2 points.
4) America seems to have gotten on quite well for well over two centuries with all manner of quite public and private sexual going's on going on
5) Women finally are being allowed in America to have "dominion" over their own bodies. It is about time.
6) issues like this are personal and it takes an awfully nearsighted soul, religious or not, to think they should be able to tell a young woman a young man or anyone elese for that matter what to do with their own personal health.

I know you wingers are used to portraying premarital sex as this horrible sinful life-ruining abomination, but relying entirely on such warped scare tactics is no substitute for good health policy.

Bingo.

From posts such as this one, one gets the sense that Noonan doesn't think very highly of women. In his scenarios, they're all pretty stupid--nothing but a collection of brainless twits who can easily be made to hop into bed at the drop of a hat, and that if/when they do have sex, they're being "used and abused." There's no indication that Noonan realizes that sex is a two-way street, that women are perfectly capable of thinking and fending for themselves, and that proper education (which means teaching people more than just "don't have sex because it makes the li'l baby Jesus cry") leads to smarter, safer decisions.

Also, he's really, really fixated on 40-year-old men having sex with teenage girls. Hmmmm.

Finally, that "massive contrary evidence?" Yeah, that'd be evidence against regressive BS such as Noonan's "sex is only for married people to make babies--and that's all anybody should know," not for it. For example, how about this high school in Ohio? How'd that abstinence-only "education" work out? Oh, it only resulted in 65 pregnant seniors in one year--13 percent of the class. Too bad that's what it took for the school to abandon its abtinence-only pipe dream and start dealing with reality, but it's long, slow work dragging social regressives into enlightenment.

Tom, I thought you were making a joke, a la "Get A Brain Morans" (google it, I'm link impaired)

Mark,

Aarontime makes some excellent points. Why do you insist on seeing sex as something that is "done to" females? Because in your world, no young woman would have sex because she wanted to. No, some dirty old man must be pressuring her, and she doesn't have enough of a mind to say no. Then he can just feed her a pill, and again, she doesn't have the brains to say no! Does he tell her it's candy, do you think?

Ridiculous.

Is this really how you view women, especially young ones? As brainless, pliable creatures who have no sexual feelings and desires but would only get horizontal to "please" some guy? That's truly chilling, and I really think you have no idea how offensive.

Besides, I thought you were anti-abortion. Why in the world would you oppose a pill that prevents pregnancy? Because, you know, no pregnancy, no abortion. Get it?

Again, keef can only comment on a typo... maybe you should look for a job as an editor...

Maybe you should look for someone who can transcribe your drivel without making errors, Tommie. And I did more than comment on your poor writing skills...I called you a Clinton sycophant.

Jerk...

Thanks for pointing out more of your idiocy, keef. It's hard to keep up sometimes...

Norah,

Children are called "minors" because we presume they cannot do things that adults do. In our weird, modern world, we still say that a 14 year old cannot consent to taking out a loan, but they can consent to have sex. I'm merely taking the proper view of the matter: a 14 year old isn't equipped to make either financial or sexual decisions.

It is, of course, "done to" boys as well as girls - but girls are the primary victims of sexual immorality. It is girls who have their reputations besmirched; it is girls who risk pregnancy. And, I know, we're not supposed to worry about a reputation in 2006 because we're all so advanced and progressive...but a girl who has sex with a lot of boys is still considered a slut by the boys...and she's not going to get a lot of respectable boys with good intentions asking her out.

Cavlor,

1. We ban drinking and driving. This is the legislation of morality.

2. We ban sex between adults and minors, as well as banning sex between family members. This is the legislation of sexuality.

3. It is amazing that you've gone through your whole life apparantly just mouthing the "you can't legislate morality" talking point without ever thinking about it.

4. There's a difference - used to be, sexual vulgarity was hidden away in the sewers where it belonged...now it is placed front and center, and celebrated as the be-all and end-all of human existence.

5. American women have always had dominion over their own bodies - at least they did until the sexual revolution came along and they were all carefully instructed that their bodies are for the pleasure of as many men as would like to try them out - or do you really think that women started the revolution?

6. We tell young people what to do all the time - in fact, it is our moral duty to tell them what to do, because no human being can arrive at worthwhile adulthood unless he's been carefully instructed by his elders.

Aaron,

Oh, some dodge the bullet - heck, I did. I am alive here today as living proof that there must be a God, because without His diligent care, I would have been destroyed long ago.

Sex, drugs and rock 'n roll...tried 'em all. And, man, what a wonderful life that was - drunk at parties and waking up God knows where...much superior to getting married at, oh, 19 and having a couple kids and living a decent life like a real man...those nightclubs were far superior to any wife or children I could have had, right?

All those people I knew back then - wonder how many of them are dead, or in jail, or permanently crippled by it all?

Well, truth be told, I do know the fate of some...Todd is dead; drank himself to death by the time he was in his mid-30's. Wasn't that so cool - you know, the way we'd manage to get some beer and have a party? Those squares who wouldn't booze it up with us - what did they know? Who were they, anyways, to try and tell us what we could and couldn't do? But why should I worry? I'm alive, aren't I?

Then there's another who still gets high on pot nearly every day. Just a bit of harmless weed - that he's a 40 year old teenager, well, what of it? At any rate, I'm not a stoner anymore, am I?

Yeah, and have sex - its natural, healthy and everyone's doing it. Oh, that girl? Well, last we heard of her she had a couple kids, was addicted to coke and living in some dump somewhere. How can I be at fault? She had sex with lots of guys - just use a condom and everything's ok...its harmless. And, hey, I didn't wind up a used-up rag doll, did I?

Hey, what am I supposed to do? You can't legislate morality - and, at any rate, all that old morality was just a scam made by some people to keep others in line. We've learned better now - you can party all the time, have sex as much as you like, and nothing will ever happen to you...well, except for all the lousy crap that happens to you. But don't draw any conclusions! For God's sake, don't do that - start drawing conclusions and you might change your mind about the modern morality...and that could be disasterous for all of us.