Remember, liberals want teenage girls to have a choice to murder their baby.....but will not allow a mother of an inner city kid who wants what is best for that kid to CHOOSE to have him go to a voucher school.

Oh the hypocrisy on the left...it just never stops.

Mark, I've been reading you're recent posts and I want to clear up something. Are you against everyone getting an education?

There are so many things wrong with public schools it takes up more than this post can call up. Anything we say here is an oversimplification and the biggest one is to say is is just the liberal's fault. Though I will agree that they do have a major investiment in the system and are major opponents to the current proposed solutions, I haven't seen the conservatives pushing hard to fix things.

From the local on up, not enough people work seriously to fix the problems. Every area of the school system has problems, from teacher pay and quality to student violence and crime the entire system needs work. While no system is perfect there's got to be a better system.

*Shakes head*

Where did you get that idea Kiwi? Just because he doesn't think getting an education is a "right" doesn't mean he thinks that everyone shouldn't have an education. One doesn't mean the other after all, weren't you taught that in school? :)

kiwi,

My attitude towards education is based on two concepts:

1. Not everyone wants to be educated.

2. Quality of education is better than quantity of education.

As for "1", what that means is that you really can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. In primary school, I would concentrate almost exclusively on the basics - reading, writing and arithmatic. A dash of only American history, and that is about it for the first 5 years or so. After that, we'll have a good idea of who really wants to advance, and who should be put on a track towards a vocational education.

And that leads in to "2" - having in the 6th or 7th grade separated the student body in to those who are capable of higher education and those who are not, I would then concentrate on getting each batch ready for what it really has to do.

For the batch headed towards vocational school, the emphasis would be on the practical side of things - wood shop, metal shop, business math, personal finances, etc. For the batch headed towards higher education, the emphasis would be on preparation for a real education - a heavy dose of what used to be called the classics, perhaps even re-introducing Latin and Greek; certainly making French or Spanish a requirement.

The first batch would become the highly skilled workers - the second batch the lawyers, doctors, college professors...those that met neither batch...well, the world will always need ditch diggers and burger flippers.

The fundamental flaw with modern education is that it works from the idiotic assumption that everyone not only can, but will go on to college.

.

...

Recommended reading for all:

"Gifted Hands" by Ben Carson, Chief of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Medical Center.

Carson is a black former gang member from a broken family in the Detroit Ghetto. His mother made him read two books per week and provide her written book reports (even though unkown to him she couldn't read).

Through faith, personal responsiblity and determination he was able to raise himself to be one of the most accomplished neurosurgeons in the world, despite the poor public school system, and his ghetto environment.

You would think that the NAACP would use him as a role model for black youth. But NO. Carson believes in personal responsibility. He rejects victimhood, and challenges blacks to work hard themselves and not depend on the broken public school system or the government for a handout. These are messages that black leaders don't want to hear because it undermines their "we are victims" message.

If things are off track in Detroit, then obviously there is a conservative somewhere making the policy decisions. Rectify that and you solve the problem.

If things are off track in Detroit, then obviously there is a conservative somewhere making the policy decisions. Rectify that and you solve the problem.

If things are off track in Detroit, then obviously there is a conservative somewhere making the policy decisions. Rectify that and you solve the problem.

"Mark, I've been reading you're recent posts and I want to clear up something. Are you against everyone getting an education?"

Classic example of an publicly "educated" liberal...no reading comprehension and the ability to proudly ask irrelevant strawman questions.

Hilarious...Axis just said a conservative in Detroit is making these decisions.

Axis, when you find a conservative in charge of ANYTHING in Detroit, let us all know because it will be a first.

Like so many other urban areas and blue states, they are run by Democrats. This is why our cities are so horribly mismanaged and yet these idiot voters in those cities just keep re-electing them.

phnxbmed good point, I'd also like to point out the hundreds of immigrants from Asia and India who do the same thing. They come here with little or no comprehension of the language, work their butts off (and score higher than many native language speakers!) and suceed here in America. With no hand-outs or need to blame others for their troubles.

Detroit - a liberal run "utopia"!

Result - FAILURE!

New Orleans - another liberal run "utopia"!

Result -

....hmmmmm, seeing a pattern here........

What is the common message for the liberal solution to their own caused problems?

Spend more money.....

In some places, money spent per student reaches the level that the student could have his college tuition paid for!

and the solution is more money?

You now the liberal adage...if it is broke don't fix it.

gozer, quite simple. Mark appears to be against public education, the only alternative is to make all education private. So how are the poorest expected to send their kids to school? seems logical to me once you get rid of public schools then only those who can afford it can send their kids to school. Maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if I am.

Mark, while this doesn't affect me at all (I assume you know I am not an American), I'll put my thoughts forth anyway. My view of education is quite simple, free education must exist for all those who want it, after the age of 16 if someone doesn't attend etc then they have no right to be there (thus can be removed). Until that point they do not know what is good for them and are too young to work anyway, so until then yes, they must be forced to attend a school. After the age of 16 I believe everyone should be given a clear cut choice, remain in a high school like setting and gain an academic education or enter a trade school where they would learn a trade (eg builder). As for your idea of of teaching Greek and Latin, these should be added as optional classes (I think at this age most classes should be chosen) but by no means forced, They hold no practical application to most students. If someone is a tad "slow" but wants to learn then they should be given the help they require to get there assuming their slowness isn't due to a severe mental disability. I'm sure most of the "liberal" posters on this blog would agree with alot of what I just wrote and as you can see there is a very large common ground there, we both think alternatives should be given to those who do not want (or in your view unable) an academic career and we also see the advantage in quality over quanity (differing views on how that would work, but same concept).

kiwi - please read up on vouchers before posting such ignorant dribble again.

Being against the current public education system doesn't mean he's against public education. I think we can all agree, as he stated before. That at the VERY least K-6 should be free and open to all and in fact mandatory. Much as you said yourself.

It's what is taught, how the money is being spent, and the inablity to allow your kids to go where you want them that Mark and many of us have issues with.

Kiwi,

Fair enough - but I don't think we should be keeping disruptive kids in class pre-16 years old...if a child is badly raised by his parents, and then placed in school where he is going to cut in to the ability of children of responsible parents to learn, then we have failed both sorts of children.

An addendum to my plan is to, in a manner of speaking, "sentence" the delinquents to school - after giving them their full chance in the regular public school system, they would be then placed in an institution which would hold them until their 18th birthday, or when they can pass a test showing basic educational knowledge (how to read, do basic sums, that sort of thing). I would weed out such disruptive students by the time they are 12.

This way we give everyone their chance - and please keep in mind, that I don't believe in any limitation of budget, but I would have the parents pay as much as they can for the schooling - the dirt poor would pay little, but at least something, the rich would pay full price. There is nothing actually free in this world, and we shouldn't pretend that education can be such.

There are definately flaws in the education system, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need meaningful reforms when it comes to teacher contracts and pay, and getting rid of the tenure system would be good.

That being said, the school system can only be as good as the student that it attempts to teach. If a student isn't receptive, you might as well be trying to teach a wall how to dance.

However, you can't blame a school for trying to teach every child who gets in there. People, even stupid people, can reform themselves.

Kiwi, you may not be American, but can you try using paragraphs? It will make your posts easier to read, and is a basic in English writing.

As to your assumption that because Mark does not believe the current system is working he is against the idea, maybe you should have the post translated to your native tongue? He is commenting the inability of Liberals in Detroit to educate - not how much he dislikes public education.

As for the Detroit school system, they obviously need to be taken over by a group that knows how to run a successful school system. Maybe a suburb, or parochial system would be willing to take it on, without the idiotic restraints that currently seem to be in place.

Georgia,

Not everyone is interested in going to college. And in this day and age, if you do not get skills training or go to college you end up flipping burgers most often. As I was graduating high school the Omaha Public School District closed their Technical High School. While it has not offically re-opened, technical offerings are now available because they are beginning to recognize that not everyone wants to go to college.

What is wrong with allowing those who do not want to go to college get technical training in High School? They could even be given the course work needed to go to a technical college for advanced training?

Georgia - the current teachers unions (and their very strong ties to the Democrats) make reform in these cities impossible. That is why some parents have asked that the tax money allocated to educated their children be given to them so they can choose a quality school to place thair children in.

Look at the arguments against vouchers. "It will take money from public schools." Of course it will, why should they keep it if kids go somewhere else. "We can't control the curriculums." Well, their lousy control is why people want to leave.

Are vouchers the end-all? No. Maybe though, they will allow some motivated parents and their kids to escape the sub-standard administrateivly bloated systems and actually get an education they can use. Maybe they will shock the big city schol systems into reform. Now, with strong Unions and close ties to the Democrats in power in those cities there is no reason to reform.

Georgia,

Ah, but I'm only advocating a throwing out of the bathwater...the baby I want very much to keep.

The "bathwater" is the "one-size-fits-all" curricula; the hidebound teachers unions; the massive layers of bureaucracy; the concept that we really can't expell or in any way severly discipline recalcitreant students; the concept of the education being free.

-- You conservatives definately know what mis-management looks like, you have been doing so for years, so I guess you are experts at recognizing it.

Like so many other urban areas and blue states, they are run by Democrats. This is why our cities are so horribly mismanaged and yet these idiot voters in those cities just keep re-electing them.

Thanks Axis. So good of you to contribute to THIS discussion. Thats your position on school reform and vouchers? Nyah, nyah, nyah? Thats what you've got to say?

Just checking. Because it's kind of dumb.

...

Georgia... you're right about tenure. I see nothing in it that benefits the students. Whatever the intended result, the real result is it gives teachers who attain it leave to relax and not work as hard to do a good job in the classroom (and yes, I know there are some good ones out there that continue to do so, but there's also quite a lot that take advantage and thereby bring down the quality of education students at their schools receive).

Gotta agree with that. I never understood the whole tenure thing.