This case is definitely Bulls#$%

Hopefully that gets me around the posting policy ;)

I personally believe that suits like these are stupid and should be thrown out. Like you say, are we really going to rename all of our cities that happen to have religious names and symbols?

It is possible, however, for somebody to be really fanatical (and even over reaching) about separation of church and state without "hating" or "declaring war" on religion. Can't you make your point without demonizing those who disagree with you?

What next, a law suit to remove all Biblical quotes off of our national monuments and any relief’s of Moses and the Patriarchs from the Supreme Court building etc. They are there. What are the hate mongers of the intolerant left going to do about them? Can’t they just accept American history and tolerate people of faith and the expression of it even if it is on state or federal buildings, land or flags?

You know, this whole thing reminds me of a situation that arose in Georgia a few years ago. Back then, we had a confederate battle emblem on our state flag, and black people didn't like that.

The po-donk white guys in the stix, however, wanted to keep the flag because it was "part of their heritage" and by removing the emblem from the flag, we would be somehow robbing them of their heritage.

I'm not likening christians to the Sons of the Confederacy, but I am offering a solution to your issue:

Let the people of the city of Las Cruses vote on whether or not to change their emblem.

Nothing like consent of the governed to solve problems.

And what about all the places using 'Saint' or 'St' in place names, we have several in Canuckland.

So Noonan, give us an update on how this case is resolved later.

Georgia,

Doesn't work - the citizens of San Diego voted again and again and again to try and accomodate the ostensible reasons for these suits (ie, that a religious symbol is on public property) but each time they voted (to transfer the property, sell the property, jump through judicial hoops, etc), the ACLU anti-religion types blocked them...they wanted the cross on Mt. Soledad gone, no ifs, ands or butts about it...which shows it isn't the public property aspect of it, but the fact that the cross is visible in most of San Diego which is causing the offense.

Consent of the governed is great - but your leftwing allies don't like it.

extra,

A pattern of action becomes unmistakable after a while...just barely is it a reasonable position to say there shouldn't be organized prayer in public school...but to remove the crosses from a city seal? That it hatred - that is a war against religion.

This is, first and foremost, an attack upon what we are, as a people.

What attack, Mark? If the flag violates the seperation between church and state, then it violates the seperation of church and state. End of story.

they hate religion, as a thing, and want to destroy it

For the last time, we don't hate religion! You are aware that there are progressives out there that have a strong faith in Christ, right? Take my 'radical leftist parents'(might as well add that in so you can avoid insulting my parents)as an example. They both practice the teachings of Christ and happen to lean towards the left side of the aisle. It is possible, Mark.

They hate all religion, and if they ever did force Christianity underground, they'd then just pick the next largest group of believers, and go after them.

What an ignorant statement. You're just painting a broad brush on a group of people.

Take the holy blinders off, Mark.

This is, first and foremost, an attack upon what we are, as a people.

What attack, Mark? If the flag violates the separation between church and state, then it violates the separation of church and state. End of story.

they hate religion, as a thing, and want to destroy it

For the last time, we don't hate religion! You are aware that there are progressives out there that have a strong faith in Christ, right? Take my 'radical leftist parents'(might as well add that in so you can avoid insulting my parents)as an example. They both practice the teachings of Christ and happen to lean towards the left side of the aisle. It is possible, Mark.

They hate all religion, and if they ever did force Christianity underground, they'd then just pick the next largest group of believers, and go after them.

What an ignorant statement. You're just painting a broad brush on a group of people.

Take the holy blinders off, Mark.

What I find most interesting in this whole debate is the fact the fundamentalist Christians are frequently referred to by the Left as the "Taliban wing of the GOP". One of the most visible acts of the Taliban was the destruction of a number of centuries old Buddhist monuments. So my question is what group in this country is more like the Taliban?

Why do you care?

I agree that this is a stupid suit, but again: why do you care? Does the outcome of this in anyway effect your personal faith? Does your relationship with God change if the town is called Las Cruces or not? Let Las Cruces deal with this, you deal with your own problems.

You claim that Christians are persecuted; how so? Have you been denied the right to worship anywhere? No.

Have your children been denied the right to pray in school? No. (They've been denied a mandatory moment of prayer.)

Have you been kept from the ballot box because of your political views? No.

Have you been shunned from public office for your religious belief? No.

Stop playing the victim card, its rather pathetic.

RIDICULOUS. There is NO SUCH THING as Separation of Church and State!

teenage liberal,

no blinders need to be removed. Most folks can see where the liberals in America and their agenda leads.
Just take a look at the Rainbow Coalition and the damage done to the Black Community in America.
Martin Luther King would roll over in his grave to see the desecration that has been done by Mr. Jackson and the Mr. Al Sharpton.
Their agendas, "Not promoting the democracy,liberity, or workings of the Blacks for for what?
THEMSELVES and their hordes of money that has been invested to them because of their frivilous lawsuits.
And as far as the American Flag friend.
One day; maybe when you're 50 or 60 and you can look back on your idiocy and blindness with the real issues we face in this Nation today you will then say; My Goodness, I made a grave mistake.
But friend it will be too late then.
You'll be sleeping with the enemies of the Great Flag you talk about.
Don't mention Separation.
Without the American Flag, And The Religious and Moral Values of our Great Leaders, this country would have FALLEN long ago.
And you need to quit the cool-aid dude, it's ruining your perspective on life and it's dulling your senses. And I say that respectively because I don't think you really realize the cost of Freedom.
That other cost is the Soldiers that are giving their lives in Iraq today. God bless them and their families.
Don't spit in their faces by making a damnation on our flag.
It is waving across lady liberty today but it along with her beacon of to so many desiring freedom,religion and hope there's nohting else to be desired; no not in this Nation or Nations to Come.

Just for you TL..

The metaphor which has become almost zenlike and in fact constitutionally accepted by some as if it were written in the Bill of Rights is...the wall of seperation.

What confounds me about this all is how we have elevated this metaphor to it's constitutional level when the author, Thomas Jefferson wasn't even in the USA during the entire debate and ratification of the First Amendment. Thus had no direct input on it's meaning nor the actual authors intent. Jefferson's only input to the First Amendment at best would be indirect, as some of what he authored in the Virginia Declaration of Rights formed the basis of the US Bill of Rights but nowhere within the VDR did Jefferson mention a wall, line or other barrier of seperation but did endorse the free exercise/right of individuals to choose a religion. In fact the "wall of seperation" metaphor was only used by Jefferson in a letter written 14 years after the ratification of the First Amendment to a group of his voting constiuents with Jefferson's full knowledge the letter would find it's way into to the newspapers for publication. The infamous letter can and should be viewed for what it was. A poltically motivated fluff letter of thanks and nothing more, which contained a guarantee the Federal government wouldn't establish a national religion as had been done in England.

The person most associated and closely tied to the 1st Amendment would be and is James Madison.. Madison spoke of a line but no wall in later writing... as was in attendance..

The term wall fo seperation appeared again in the 40s when USSC Justice Black (former KKK member appointed to the court by FDR) used the term in a ruling... and here is what his fellow Justices thought of the use of a metaphor in legal writings and in general the term itself:

On the "Wall of Seperation":
Justice Thurgood Marshall: "the metaphor of a "wall" or impassable barrier between church and state(as offered by Justice Hugo Black), taken too literally, may mislead constitutional analysis.

Justice Warren Burger: "Judicial caveats against entanglement must recognize that the line of seperation, far from being a "wall", is blurred, indistinct and variable barrier depending on ALL the circumstances of a particular relationship."

**Here it would be important to note Justice's Burger's reference to a "line" is that which was presented, unlike Jeferson, by an actual attendee to the debate on and ratificaion of the First Amendment, President James Madison.

And for those like minded as TL..the following fits you to a "T"

As to Metaphors in Law:

Justice Felix Franfurter: "A phrase begins life as a literary expression: it's felicity leads to it's lazy repetition: and repetition soon establishes it as a legal formula, undiscriminately used to express different and sometimes contradictary ideas"

oops forgot to add..

The same day the wording of the 1st Amendment was agreed to .... the Congress asked then President Washington to pen/write etc. a Proclamation for a Day of Thanksgiving to G-D..

Here is what was written and accepted.. BY the same Congress that wrote the 1st Amendment...
Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey
His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and
Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend
to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by
acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by
affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and
happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be
devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is
the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all
unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of
the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold
mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the
late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for
the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of
government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted'
for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring
and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He
has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the
great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other
transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several
and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all
the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly
and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially
such as have show kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and
concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of
science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal
prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.

*******

say again about a wall... and what the founders really intended..... not the bastardized version..

Justice Felix Franfurter: "A phrase begins life as a literary expression: it's felicity leads to it's lazy repetition: and repetition soon establishes it as a legal formula, undiscriminately used to express different and sometimes contradictary ideas"

^^^^^^^^^
That is great! Never read that, now Im saving it. LOL

Mark-

My opinion: The government shouldn't pay for the maintenance of religious symbols. Do what you want on your private land; leave the public lands neutral.

However, if it is in a historical context, I don't mind. So, if the city seal is historically based (probably not changed in the last 50 years), then I don't mind.

Yet, since there appears to be public outcry on the issue, bring it up to a vote. Better than bitching and groaning that nothing will work.

It's all about activism, Mark--they're losing the Mount Soledad suit of 17 years, so they're moving on to the next one.

AFWIFE, you're absolutely correct--separation of church and state does not exist in our Constitution--it's all about activism. BTW, show TL how to spell; she's pathetic.

Mark, just a guess, but I think Corpus Christi is Latin for "body of Christ." Just a guess, but what would I know--I'm just a dumb Republican. War

Blacksheep-

Go look up quotations by Thomas Jefferson.

Would you call yourself a strict constructionist?

If you are then I would like you to show me where it says, in the constitution, that the government should be infused with Christian dogma, the church mixed with the state.

I can save you time... it's not there.

If you answered yes to my question and still can't find that passage in the constitution, then you either aren't really a strict constructionist or you are a hypocrite.

Congress may not abridge the right to bear arms - but cities and states CAN.

Congress may pass no law respecting (interpretable word) religion - and neither can cities or states?

Does this seem consistent to everyone?

"Justice Felix Franfurter: "A phrase begins life as a literary expression: it's felicity leads to it's lazy repetition: and repetition soon establishes it as a legal formula, undiscriminately used to express different and sometimes contradictary ideas"

This sounds like the strategy of the MSM and the donks...as in...

"Bush lied..."
"No WMDs in Iraq..."
"the worst economy since..."
"Iraq is a failure..."
"we are less safe now than on 9/12..."
"republicans are mean..."
"republicans want to poison you air and water..."

"(insert your favorite defeatocrat mantra)..."

To teenage liberal: You need to take your anger out on the people who are teaching you LIES. LOL

They have sold you something that is not factual and are leading you astray. LOL How does that make you feel?

Have you even READ the Constituation of the United States?

This verse describes the world today!

1 John 5:19

Sin is contrary to the children of God!

"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

This war on Christianity is going on worldwide right now, Our enemy (Satan) is trying to take over this nation through the one court liberal judges and they are deceiving people in it everywhere, and they are doing everything they can to tear this nation down, and if we as Christians don't stand up and start doing something, then we will see persecution like we have never seen before.
We have allowed one judge rulings to stand too long, and it is time that we put a stop to it!!
Everywhere satan sees an oppurtunity he takes it! and it is only because we as a nation have allowed him to do so!
We need to bring these people to justice, once and for all!!

A word of encouragement follows:

1 Peter 5: 8-11

"Be self controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. To him be the power for ever and ever.Amen."

Let us then, defend the word of God!! against the evil liberal democrats!!

Jeremiah

This war on Christianity is going on worldwide right now, Our enemy (Satan) is trying to take over this nation through the one court liberal judges and they are deceiving people in it everywhere, and they are doing everything they can to tear this nation down, and if we as Christians don't stand up and start doing something, then we will see persecution like we have never seen before.
We have allowed one judge rulings to stand too long, and it is time that we put a stop to it!!
Everywhere satan sees an oppurtunity he takes it! and it is only because we as a nation have allowed him to do so!
We need to bring these people to justice, once and for all!!

So did God tell you all this over your morning breakfast, Jeremiah?

Umm Georgia it doesn't say anything about "infusing the state with Christian Dogma" nor does it say it can't be in there. That's the point. No where in the Constitution does it state that there can be no involvement of religion in the state or vice versa. All it does say is that the state can't form a religion or declair only one religion to be practiced in the country.

Seems pretty simple to me.

As for this seal this is just another waste of tax payer money. Fighting a silly lawsuit about three crosses that how many people actually even pay attention to? Think about it, how often do you see your local city's seal? Anyone? The only reason I see my city seal is when I go to City Hall for council meetings and the occasional bill from the city. Anyone else see it more?

Kahn brings up an interesting point in the fact that the 2nd Amendment is twisted and bent all the time from local all the way up to the federal level. Yet for some reason the 1st amendment gets this new "seperation of church and state" clause that isn't written in there at all and everyone takes it as fact. Weird...

Dearest Georgia..

Ya mean like this..

Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temperal punishments or burthens... are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion.... No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his oppinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting songly or collectively.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1771 "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom,"

But our rulers can have no authority over such natural rights, only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others.
- Thomas Jefferson in "Notes on Virginia".

or how about the fact Jefferson plagerized the contents of the phrase, wall of seperation, as it was originally written by Richard Hooker in the 1590s, then again in similar form by Roger Williams 1644 and again in similar form by James Burgh 1767...

My views are mine... I merely felt TLs and the rest of the wall lords need to see where the term came from and how it had been bastardized by a former KKK kleagel..to suit their needs..

Our forefathers were fairly intelligent..and I'm 100% positive.. they knew the difference between endorse..and establish..

Common sense...really...

ya might try it rather than getting a georgia dog up your backside..

Dearest Georgia..

Ya mean like this..

Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temperal punishments or burthens... are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion.... No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his oppinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting songly or collectively.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1771 "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom,"

But our rulers can have no authority over such natural rights, only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others.
- Thomas Jefferson in "Notes on Virginia".

or how about the fact Jefferson plagerized the contents of the phrase, wall of seperation, as it was originally written by Richard Hooker in the 1590s, then again in similar form by Roger Williams 1644 and again in similar form by James Burgh 1767...

My views are mine... I merely felt TLs and the rest of the wall lords need to see where the term came from and how it had been bastardized by a former KKK kleagel..to suit their needs..

Our forefathers were fairly intelligent..and I'm 100% positive.. they knew the difference between endorse..and establish..

Common sense...really...

ya might try it rather than getting a georgia dog up your backside..

oops more...

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?
- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1786

and my bookshelves have the personal writings of both Jefferson, Madison and Adams...

TL,

No!, I done it in the name of my Faith,.(Christianity),.....You seem to have a real problem with the Truth,.(Gods Holy word)...Why do you have a problem with Gods Love, and teaching for you? Because you need to repent and quit your foolish antics!

Jeremiah

Gozer,
"All it does say is that the state can't form a religion or declair only one religion to be practiced in the country." Where does it say that? It doesn't.

It says "Congress shall make no law respecting religion." Thats it. That could be taken two ways. 1. Congress shall make no laws giving respect to religion. or 2. Congress may not pass any laws dealing with religion at all.

Either way, it is in the Bill of Rights. That document is supposed to delineate rights. And, it's not clear how we make the leap from Congress to a city or state.

I note that liberals and conservatives are of two minds here. Liberals say gun laws are not the same and that cities and states CAN make stricter laws. But that they can't have their own religion policy.

No where in the Constitution of the United States is the phrase "separation of church and state" written. NO PLACE.

Yet, since there appears to be public outcry on the issue, bring it up to a vote. Better than bitching and groaning that nothing will work.

Posted by: Georgia Frawg at August 14, 2006 06:05 PM

Frawg, unfortunately the public outcry starts with one maybe two people, while the other %80 didn't really give a flying fart until it was brought up. That's not public outcry!

Ex. Moron exhibit "A". The idiot in my home state of Ca. trying to get rid of the words "under God" in the pledge. Was it a public outcry? Hell no, his daughter & Ex-wife didn't even support his narrow minded view.

Kahn,
You left out a couple of important words:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
There's no way this could mean Congress giving respect to religion itself, it would have to mean Congress giving respect to the establishment of a state religion or the process of establishing that religion. And about states not having to abide by the US Constitution, there's this little thing from Article XI too for all you liberal "strict constructionists":
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think that a super-majority of folks still understand that it is wrong to mix a particular religious sect with government (even if the sect is Christianity). Likewise, I think that a super-majority of folks still understand that a given symbol sometimes has independent historical significance, even though it may have some residual religious significance as well.

Given that, wouldn't it be nice if our exalted federal legislature could come up with a thoughtful plan as to what constitutes an historical landmark (as opposed to a strictly religious one), and a plan with a reasonable chance of passing judicial muster -- rather than kicking the can down the road and requiring the judicial branch to be accused of "activism".

Then again, wouldn't it be nice if pigs could fly.

Ricorun,

That would work, if those who bring these suits were looking for a reasonable compromise - they're not.

I know, I know - the leftwing mantra these days is that the war against religion is just a figment of our imagination...but such a point of view if unsupported by the evidence right in front of our eyes.

A reasonable accomodation can't be made with the unreasonable.

The LLL's have waged a decades-long war against Christianity, politically. Islam has waged a centuries-long war against Christianity, militarily. The LLL's and Islamists have recently joined forces against Christianity-one attacking Christianity through the courts, the other attacking Christianity with explosives. It's a match made in Hell, engineered by Satan.

Muslims around the world are united and fight for their religion. Muslims are willing to die for their God. Muslims give their lives, and those of their children, in suicide attacks against those who they believe are enemies of their religion.

In contrast, liberals are doing all they can to destroy religion in America. Liberals are doing all they can to eliminate God from America. Liberals are doing all they can to destroy Christianity. ...And Christians just sit back and allow them to do it!

While Muslims are dying for their God, Christians could at least unite and fight enough to keep the symbols that have been part of America and America's history since the beginning of this nation and before! If Christians aren't willing to fight even a little for God and their religion, who do they think is going to do it!

All Americans, not just Christians, should unite and stop the idiotic liberal left from the sheer stupidity of removing crosses from America just because the nutty liberal left can't tolerate the sight of them!!!

AAR

Our enemy (Satan) is trying to take over this nation through the one court liberal judges and they are deceiving people in it everywhere, and they are doing everything they can to tear this nation down, and if we as Christians don't stand up and start doing something, then we will see persecution like we have never seen before. - Jeremiah

The LLL's and Islamists have recently joined forces against Christianity-one attacking Christianity through the courts, the other attacking Christianity with explosives. It's a match made in Hell, engineered by Satan. - Freedom1

Mark - would you agree with Freedom and Jeremiah that Liberals are actually instruments and agents of Satan? That Liberals have joined the terrorists to destroy Christianity? Do you suppose this is the direction that the Republican party is going?

I wonder because when I show this stuff to my Republican friends and family, they are as shocked and amazed as I am.

Our enemy (Satan) is trying to take over this nation through the one court liberal judges and they are deceiving people in it everywhere, and they are doing everything they can to tear this nation down, and if we as Christians don't stand up and start doing something, then we will see persecution like we have never seen before. - Jeremiah

The LLL's and Islamists have recently joined forces against Christianity-one attacking Christianity through the courts, the other attacking Christianity with explosives. It's a match made in Hell, engineered by Satan. - Freedom1

Mark - would you agree with Freedom and Jeremiah that Liberals are actually instruments and agents of Satan? That Liberals have joined the terrorists to destroy Christianity? Do you suppose this is the direction that the Republican party is going?

I wonder because when I show this stuff to my Republican friends and family, they are as shocked and amazed as I am.

Update: Mount Soledad Veterans Memorial and its embattled cross.

Extracts from various news reports...

"Today promises to be a major landmark in the 17 year long battle over San Diego's Mount Soledad Cross. President George Bush is scheduled to sign legislation in the Oval Office to annex the land under the Cross, and put it under the control of the Federal Department of Defense. This shifts the legal battle over whether the cross violates the separation of church and state from the state to the federal level..."

"...The legislation, unanimously approved by the Senate earlier this month and passed in a 349-74 House vote last month, now clears the way for the memorial's transfer of ownership to the federal government."

"...a 17-year legal challenge which began with a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) on behalf of an atheist ... Philip Paulson's attorney, Jim McElroy, said he filed papers in federal court in San Diego last week to void the transfer and declare it unconstitutional ... its future will likely be determined by the U.S. Supreme Court..."

"...The Justice Department has more resources than the City of San Diego... the federal government has deeper coffers and is 'in a better position to fight this on behalf of the United States' ... If and when the case gets to the United States Supreme Court, we're very confident we have the votes that we need there to ultimately prevail [to keep the cross] ..."

"Just because something may have a religious connotation doesn't mean you destroy it and tear it down,"said Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Calif...."

AAR

"would you agree with Freedom and Jeremiah that Liberals are actually instruments and agents of Satan?"

Yes, Very much so, They scream for the right to murder(Abortion) un-born baby children, The MSM(ABC,CBS,CNN,so-on) is taking orders from the left
to hate the Jews, they scream for homoe marriage,
they want all symbols of religious freedom to be removed from the public eye, and on and on and on, they never quit satans work, they are a scary bunch to allow back to power!!

A few weeks ago, Somebody told me that people are going to the Lincoln Memorial monument, of Course I have never been there, but anyway, He said that people are taking there keys anything they can find and they are even using cement, bubble gum, instruments to scrape the scripture quotes that are embedded on the walls of the monument off, they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls, the very words that made this Nation what it is today!!
When the person told me that I just shook my head in dis-belief, It made me so angry that some Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor, dis-grace to such a beautiful monument!!
Atheists are trying their best to get the monument removed, because they do not want people to see the truth, make no-mistake!, Liberals and Atheists are a SICK bunch of people!! It just bothers me to NO-END!!

So Yes, Liberals are instruments of Satan!!
They won't stop until they have literally destroyed America from within, A Nation that was once United and now stands divided, All due to the Liberal agenda!

The Liberal Agendas only seek to destroy!!
And America needs to be made aware of this fact, because WITHOUT the Moral Foundation, you have nothing to keep this Nation from it's eventual un-fortunate Fall!!

Christians need to wake up from their slumber, and realize that if we are to remain a strong Nation, we need to fight for this right to keep God a part and foudation! within the bounds of the Constitution, and all aspects of Government, because we have a duty to protect America from the godless liberal democrats!!

So, extramedium, Tell your conservative friends, that YOUR party(the liberal leftwing) is the cause and result, of all the confusion in AMERICA today, and that if they cast just ONE vote for your party, then they are blinding themselves to REALITY!! and that reality that liberals are a danger to America, due to their godless agendas!!

STAND UP! CHRISTIANS!! AND DO SOMETHING FOR THE SAKE OF FUTURE GENERATIONS!! DO NOT ALLOW LIBERALS TO DESTROY THE LAND OF THE FREE!!

John 8:31

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you HOLD TO MY TEACHING, you are really MY DISCIPLES. Then you will KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE."

Jeremiah

"would you agree with Freedom and Jeremiah that Liberals are actually instruments and agents of Satan?"

Yes, Very much so, They scream for the right to murder(Abortion) un-born baby children, The MSM(ABC,CBS,CNN,so-on) is taking orders from the left
to hate the Jews, they scream for homoe marriage,
they want all symbols of religious freedom to be removed from the public eye, and on and on and on, they never quit satans work, they are a scary bunch to allow back to power!!

A few weeks ago, Somebody told me that people are going to the Lincoln Memorial monument, of Course I have never been there, but anyway, He said that people are taking there keys anything they can find and they are even using cement, bubble gum, instruments to scrape the scripture quotes that are embedded on the walls of the monument off, they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls, the very words that made this Nation what it is today!!
When the person told me that I just shook my head in dis-belief, It made me so angry that some Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor, dis-grace to such a beautiful monument!!
Atheists are trying their best to get the monument removed, because they do not want people to see the truth, make no-mistake!, Liberals and Atheists are a SICK bunch of people!! It just bothers me to NO-END!!

So Yes, Liberals are instruments of Satan!!
They won't stop until they have literally destroyed America from within, A Nation that was once United and now stands divided, All due to the Liberal agenda!

The Liberal Agendas only seek to destroy!!
And America needs to be made aware of this fact, because WITHOUT the Moral Foundation, you have nothing to keep this Nation from it's eventual un-fortunate Fall!!

Christians need to wake up from their slumber, and realize that if we are to remain a strong Nation, we need to fight for this right to keep God a part and foudation! within the bounds of the Constitution, and all aspects of Government, because we have a duty to protect America from the godless liberal democrats!!

So, extramedium, Tell your conservative friends, that YOUR party(the liberal leftwing) is the cause and result, of all the confusion in AMERICA today, and that if they cast just ONE vote for your party, then they are blinding themselves to REALITY!! and that reality that liberals are a danger to America, due to their godless agendas!!

STAND UP! CHRISTIANS!! AND DO SOMETHING FOR THE SAKE OF FUTURE GENERATIONS!! DO NOT ALLOW LIBERALS TO DESTROY THE LAND OF THE FREE!!

John 8:31

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you HOLD TO MY TEACHING, you are really MY DISCIPLES. Then you will KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE."

Jeremiah

extramedium,

What part do your Republican friends not understand?

If you have Republican friends and family who are shocked about the liberal attacks on Christianity, I can only conclude that they are unaware of the facts and what has been happening all around the country. Perhaps they are members of the complacent majority who don't pay attention to the news about the many liberal attacks by the ACLU on religion, Christianity, and Christian symbols. Perhaps they are not Christians and aren't concerned about what the liberals are doing to America!

The first mistake your friends and relatives made is listening to liberals and believing anything they say! I would suggest they do some reading, and listen to Fox News and Conservative talk shows to learn what's really going on in America with religion, Christians, as well as the liberal attacks on American, and their support for terrorists! I'll bet your friends and relatives don't understand the latter two either. Ask them to contact the various Christian organizations who are fighting the liberal attacks for additional details about the liberal attacks on Christianity.

Liberals [progressives] and Muslim terrorists both have the same goal...

Among the goals of Muslim terrorists is to destroy Israel, America, and Christianity, replacing the latter with Islam.

Among the goals of liberal [progressive] Democrats is to destroy religion in America especially Christianity. Liberals fight on behalf of atheists to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance, remove the Ten Commandments from public view, remove Christmas trees and Christmas carols from out schools, remove crosses from public memorials and from the names of towns, stop private citizens using private money from building a Katrina memorial on the banks of a waterway because it has a cross. The list goes on for many pages!

Wake up America while there's still time to stop the liberal attack on American, their liberal agenda, their social engineering, and their religion of Liberalism!

AAR

Liberals fight on behalf of atheists to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance...

Sorry AAR, you are wrong about that. Being an atheist does not make you attack religion or religious institutions. I am one and have no problem with any of those things and would fight to keep them just as they are. You are confusing atheists with liberals. Two different animals, I assure you.

Rev,

For the most part, I agree with the point you are making, and I believe you are factually correct.

It is the fanatical liberal left and the ACLU, and their obsession and campaign to remove religion and Christianity from public expression and view, who are the REAL instigators and the REAL problem. They find or encourage an atheist to file the lawsuit, but the liberals and ACLU are the REAL ONES initiating, driving, pushing the issue!

I know you said you are an atheist. I have known, worked with, and talked to many atheists and not one of those have had any problem with crosses, Christmas trees, Christmas carols, "under God", the Ten Commandments, or even Nativity scenes. None have ever said they felt threatened, pressured, or uncomfortable by any of these, or felt compelled by them in any way to embrace religion or Christianity. Not one has ever said they believe that these symbols of religion and Christianity should be removed, and in fact, some have made comments very similar to yours.

I have heard atheists call in to talk shows as well as express their views in interviews, on the Internet, and in the news media. Most said the same thing; although, I would guess that a very few who might actually have a problem. I haven't met them though, and I believe they are very few in number.

Most Americans do not understand that it is actually liberals and the ACLU who are behind the whole issue of religion and the attacks on it and Christianity. They do understand, however, that the lawsuits are filed by one or two atheists. It is for that reason, that I normally word my comments the way I do, but I wish more Americans understood that it is liberals and the ACLU who are behind the lawsuits and the attacks.

AAR

It is the fanatical liberal left and the ACLU,

Agreed, but they really are the same thing. And to understand why they act like that all you have to understand is that they fear religion for some reason or other. Perhaps they feel "left out" or intimidated by the vast majority of Americans who derive their moral standards - which are invariably higher than the rabid left's - from their religions. I have moral standards that I would hold against anyone else's but they come from someplace other than religion. The lack of these socially-acceptable moral standards is likely what generates their fear or religious people, their icons, and their belief systems.

In any case, it is fear that motivates their attacks on religion. They are trying now to use the old liberal trick of moral equivalence to say that Christian and Jewish and other religions prominent in the US are "just like" Islam and they are just trying to save us from that. What they refuse to see is that this country is 230 years old and that for that vast majority of its history we have lived hand-in-hand with our religious systems with no problem. Suddenly, and coincidentally with the rise of this wave of hedonistic "feel-goodism" known as liberalism, there is a reason to be very afraid. 'Cept I'm not. If I'm afraid of anything its those libs and their agenda of "if it feels good - do it."

Jeremiah

"A few weeks ago, Somebody told me that people are going to the Lincoln Memorial monument, of Course I have never been there, but anyway, He said that people are taking there keys anything they can find and they are even using cement, bubble gum, instruments to scrape the scripture quotes that are embedded on the walls of the monument off, they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls, the very words that made this Nation what it is today!!
When the person told me that I just shook my head in dis-belief, It made me so angry that some Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor, dis-grace to such a beautiful monument!!
Atheists are trying their best to get the monument removed, because they do not want people to see the truth, make no-mistake!, Liberals and Atheists are a SICK bunch of people!! It just bothers me to NO-END!!"

Again it looks as if you've been duped by another of your 'friends".
How do I know this? Well for one, I went to college just across the Mall from the Lincoln Memorial and I spent a considerable amount of time there so I know the place quite well.

Let's take your statement that "they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls"

That's False (or should I say a tremedously gross overstatment)

There are in fact only 2 direct quotes that i know of from the Bible on the Lincoln Memorial and they are inscribed on the north wall interior. It's in the text of Lincoln's 2nd inagural address. Both of the quotes however you would need a large ladder to reach. I don't know about you, but if I were one of the Park Guards I would look mighty suspicious at a person bringing a ladder into the Memorial.
Now your statement that " Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor" I'll have to take that as metaphorically crawling on their belly since you'd need a mighty tall person to reach even the lowest quote.

Now why would your "friend" tell you this obvious overstatement / falsehood. Well I point to this "It made me so angry" . Bingo.
Statements like, "liberals are vandalizing the hundreds of verses on the Lincoln Memorial "are designed to do just that. Incite blind anger at Progressives in order to score points among and with conservatives. Even though the statement on it's face is completely untrue and proven so you'll still believe it because it fills that need you have to hate liberals. If you are truely religious then listen to the verse that commands you to love your enemies. Yes Jeremiah, even liberals.

Jeremiah I'm not going to tell you that parts of the Lincoln Memorial have'nt seen some action from inconsiderate tourists who either litter or are looking to take home a souvenier every now and again, but is there a campagne by progressives to destroy the Lincoln Memorial because of a couple of quotes from the bible on a wall, come on think about it for a second. I think you need to practice a little more critical thinking before you give your heart so quickly to another of your conservative "friends"

Jeremiah

"A few weeks ago, Somebody told me that people are going to the Lincoln Memorial monument, of Course I have never been there, but anyway, He said that people are taking there keys anything they can find and they are even using cement, bubble gum, instruments to scrape the scripture quotes that are embedded on the walls of the monument off, they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls, the very words that made this Nation what it is today!!
When the person told me that I just shook my head in dis-belief, It made me so angry that some Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor, dis-grace to such a beautiful monument!!
Atheists are trying their best to get the monument removed, because they do not want people to see the truth, make no-mistake!, Liberals and Atheists are a SICK bunch of people!! It just bothers me to NO-END!!"

Again it looks as if you've been duped by another of your 'friends".
How do I know this? Well for one, I went to college just across the Mall from the Lincoln Memorial and I spent a considerable amount of time there so I know the place quite well.

Let's take your statement that "they are trying to remove these scripture verses, and there are hundreds of scripture veses on those walls"

That's False (or should I say a tremedously gross overstatment)

There are in fact only 2 direct quotes that i know of from the Bible on the Lincoln Memorial and they are inscribed on the north wall interior. It's in the text of Lincoln's 2nd inagural address. Both of the quotes however you would need a large ladder to reach. I don't know about you, but if I were one of the Park Guards I would look mighty suspicious at a person bringing a ladder into the Memorial.
Now your statement that " Americans would stoop so low and crawl on there belly to do such a stupid act of dis-honor" I'll have to take that as metaphorically crawling on their belly since you'd need a mighty tall person to reach even the lowest quote.

Now why would your "friend" tell you this obvious overstatement / falsehood. Well I point to this "It made me so angry" . Bingo.
Statements like, "liberals are vandalizing the hundreds of verses on the Lincoln Memorial "are designed to do just that. Incite blind anger at Progressives in order to score points among and with conservatives. Even though the statement on it's face is completely untrue and proven so you'll still believe it because it fills that need you have to hate liberals. If you are truely religious then listen to the verse that commands you to love your enemies. Yes Jeremiah, even liberals.

Jeremiah I'm not going to tell you that parts of the Lincoln Memorial have'nt seen some action from inconsiderate tourists who either litter or are looking to take home a souvenier every now and again, but is there a campagne by progressives to destroy the Lincoln Memorial because of a couple of quotes from the bible on a wall, come on think about it for a second. I think you need to practice a little more critical thinking before you give your heart so quickly to another of your conservative "friends"

Leftorium,

It's been a few years since I last visited the Lincoln Memorial and I didn't check it for bible verses while I was there, but sites on the Internet say "the Lincoln Memorial displays numerous references to God ... [and] words like 'Nation under God,' 'Bible' and 'prayer' are everywhere"; although, I did not find any bible verses. Perhaps it was the references to God and religion that were the target of vandals.

A few other comments I found while searching the Internet...

"Bible verses are etched in stone all over the federal buildings and monuments throughout Washington D.C."

"Besides the Capitol, you will find references to God at the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, the National Archives, Senate and House office buildings, the U.S. Supreme Court, the Jefferson Memorial, and the Library of Congress."

"...[in] the main reading room of the Library of Congress, there is a bronze statue of Moses holding The Ten Commandments. On the ceiling, a painting called 'Judea' shows a young Israeli woman raising her hands in prayer to God. And there are also quotes on the wall like this: 'The heavens declare the glory of God.' And down the hallway in the main lobby, two Bibles are on display."

"In the National Archives ... a bronze medallion on the floor and right at the top ... The Ten Commandments, front and center. In the Senate and House office buildings, there is a plaque that says 'In God we trust.'"

"At the Washington Monument ... almost 200 carved plaques donated by the states. Many of them show scripture verses from the Bible, and others have sayings like 'holiness to the Lord.' On the outside aluminum tip, there is a Latin phrase inscribed that says 'Laus Deo,' which means 'Praise be to God.'"

"At the U.S. Supreme Court, The Ten Commandments are located in a few different places, including above the judge's courtroom bench."

The fact is, religion, God, and Christianity were everywhere. The founders of the United States never intended for the separation of church and state or the Constitution to mean the removal of God and religion from the public display, public buildings, public property, etc.!

AAR

"Well for one, I went to college just across the Mall from the Lincoln Memorial and I spent a considerable amount of time there so I know the place quite well."

Leftorium,

How well I must say?!

Did you know?

At the Lincoln Memorial, words like "Nation Under God", "Bible" and "Pray" are EVERYWHERE inscribed in the building stones.

Furthermore did you know?

That "Nation under God", "Bible" and "Pray" All have to do with God and his teachings(Scripture).

""liberals are vandalizing the hundreds of verses on the Lincoln Memorial""

BINGO, TRUTH!!

How do I know? Because there is evidence pointing to it everywhere!!

For example: Did you know?

"That speech is actually carved into the wall of the Lincoln Memorial in a permanent affront to every atheist who visits this public building. You have to wonder how soon there will be a lawsuit to scrape the references to God and the Bible off the monument so as not to offend those who hate or despise religion. This is no idle threat. Dr. Michael Newdow, the atheist who brought suit to outlaw the motto “one nation under God,” told the New York Times he intended to “ferret out all insidious uses of religion in daily life.”

"Now why would your "friend" tell you this obvious overstatement / falsehood"

Ok, It's obvious that I can't make you believe me, when I say my friend told me about these happenings, but all indications prove and you can search the entire web, and find millions of results proving my point. My friend I will tell you right now he is NO liar, as a matter of fact, he is a minister at my church and he spent probably a lot many more years in virginia than you have, So, No, he's not just saying it because he dis-likes liberals, he told me because it is truth, and un-mistakably the actions of the ACLU and other liberal atheist organizations!! Take it or leave it!! I can't force you!!

And believe you me!, IT DOES ANGER ME, TO NO END!, no questions asked, because I can see and my pastor can see, THE WHOLE WORLD CAN SEE the workings of the ACLU and the atheist activist judges and where they lead to. So don't try to paint a picture that it is all the conservative fault, you are being highly hypocritical, because you take the blame and place it on the other party when it lays in the acts of your own hypocritical hands PERIOD. IT IS THE GODLESS LIBERAL DEMOCRATS (YOU). Why do you think I am speaking out about this? For nothing, No because I don't want to see my freedom or anybody elses taken away PERIOD.

"still believe it because it fills that need you have to hate liberals."

LISTEN,LISTEN,LISTEN!! OPEN YOUR EARS!!

What have we been preaching here for the past 3 months, You completely twist things around, Why? Why? Why?

Who are the ones who are trying to take Gods name out of the courthouses! Who are the ones who are trying to remove the ten commandments? Who is trying to tear down crosses? Who is trying to make it a constitutional right for those putred homoes to get married? Who is trying to make it a right to suck the life out of un-born children through a tube? Who is trying to ban the name of God out of the pledge of allegiance? Who is it that does not want children praying in schools? who is it that does not want pictures of Jesus in the school buildings? On and On and On and On and On and On ??????????????????????????.

"If you are truely religious then listen to the verse that commands you to love your enemies. Yes Jeremiah, even liberals."

Leftorium, Leftorium!!! Listen up!!

Jesus said" anyone who is ashamed of me and my words, I will ashame him before my heavenly Father and the holy angels"

Now, Your so smart! MIND YOU, I'm not the brightest fellor in the world, but it does not take a very smart person to figure out who are the guilty parties here, but nevertheless,...

Who is ASHAMED of Gods name here? It certainly isn't the conservatives I can tell you that right now. because we have been doing everything that we can to preserve that right to hold on to our symbols of Faith!!

So, Who is it? Before you even get started I am going to tell you right now!!

Who are the hate-mongers?
Who are ashamed of Gods holy words?

LIBERALS, PROGRESSIVES, DEMOCRATS = ATHEISTS/LIBERALS = DISASTER!!
What ever you wish to call them they are all the same bunch!!

But regardless of what you try to do, we will not be driven from the public square!!

Job 40:2

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Job 41:10-11

"Who then is able to stand against me?
Who has claim against me that I must pay?

Everything under heaven belongs to me."

No atheist under heaven, will ever, be fit for the kingdom of heaven, NO NOT ONE!

I don't know maybe when the atheists do take over, Christians will wake up!!

WAKE UP AMERICA, WAKE UP!

Romans 10:21

"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people"

WAKE UP AMERICA, WAKE UP!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah-

Like I said your anecdotal evidence isn't worth a Lincoln nickel. It's practically physically impossible to do what you are saying. If you had been to the Lincoln Memorial then you'd see what I was saying. If you want to continue to believe your minister who probably told you all that farce in order to denigrate the left and incite your hatred then that’s your business and in truth you've already admitted you own penchant for gullibility in the past so being "taken in" by someone you think is a friend isn't unfamiliar territory for you.
I grew up in Virginia and I would expect that your minister, also from Virginia, has come in contact with the Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom authored by Jefferson.

"In Virginia, the American Revolution led to the disestablishment of the Anglican Church, which had been tied closely to the royal government. Then the question arose as to whether the new state should continue to impose taxes to be used for the support of all recognized churches. The proposal had a number of supporters who, even if they no longer accepted an established church, still believed that religion should be supported by the public purse.

For some Virginians, however, imposing religion on people smacked of tyranny. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, both of whom would later be president of the United States, argued that religious beliefs should be solely matters of individual conscience and completely immune from any interference by the state. Moreover, religious activity of any sort should be wholly voluntary. Not only did they oppose taxing people to support an established church, but they also objected to forcing people to pay taxes even for their own church. To Jefferson, a high wall of separation should always keep church and state apart."

from http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/42.htm

And another proponent of the separation of church and state said such things as:

The disciples were accustomed to seeing religious leaders making a show of praying pompously in public, but Jesus said, "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:5,6 (NKJV).

And he also said:

17. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Cesar, or not?

18. But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19. Shew me the tribute-money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21. They say unto him, Cesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render, therefore, unto Cesar the things which are Cesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

"Like I said your anecdotal evidence isn't worth a Lincoln nickel."

Opps LOL!!!! I guess your evidence was worth less than i thought. Meant to say Lincoln penny.

Ironic mistake though, Jefferson being on the Nickle and all LOL

Leftorium,

You continue to ignore the facts. The founders of this nation and those who wrote and ratified the U.S. Constitution never intended for God to be removed from America and public life by a bunch of liberals. They practiced their religion openly, in public, and in America's schools, and they did so until a bunch of activist liberal law-giver judges decided to ignore the facts, ignore history, and ignore the intent of the Constitution!

Apparently Jefferson [and others] practiced what he believed... not what you wish [or believe] he believed!!!

From the Library of Congress Website...

"It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a 'crowded audience.' Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers."

From the Library of Congress Website...

"The Old House of Representatives... Church services were held in what is now called Statuary Hall from 1807 to 1857. The first services in the Capitol, held when the government moved to Washington in the fall of 1800, were conducted in the 'hall' of the House in the north wing of the building. In 1801 the House moved to temporary quarters in the south wing, called the 'Oven,' which it vacated in 1804, returning to the north wing for three years. Services were conducted in the House until after the Civil War. The Speaker's podium was used as the preacher's pulpit."

It's time Americans return to the original intent of the Constitution and trash your religion of Liberalism.

AAR

Leftorium,

It's ever increasingly sounding like you are an atheist!!

You still refuse the Truth!!

And seems odd to me that you change the subject from the current subject(Lincoln Memorial) to the Jefferson Memorial! Why?

I'll never know...

I tell you this before I go!

The founders of the Constitution were all required to be Christian, people of honor and integrity, people that had courage to do the right and moral thing before the sight of Almighty God, Who were God fearing, and who would give their lives any day for the cause of Freedom!
Which is something I don't think you have, Just from reading all your slandering against Christianity and all!!
And you can make fun of my Faith all you want to, but you see the good part about that is, you'll never take that away from me because this is America, and I'll fight for it no-matter the cost!
Because my fellow Christian brothers deserve all the help that they can get!

So, go ahead mock this Christian Nation all you want to, but one of these days, some fine young man may be your counselor, and might very well be a Christian man!!

I leave you with this!!

Mark 12:43-44

"Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth: but she, out of her poverty, put in everything -- all she had to live on."

No seperation of Church and state!

Mark 13:13

Jesus said:
"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Jeremiah

AAR, Jeremiah, why do you bother with the leftist troll? You'd be better off pounding sand into a rathole.

"The disciples were accustomed to seeing religious leaders making a show of praying pompously in public, but Jesus said, "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:5,6 (NKJV).

And he also said:

17. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Cesar, or not?

18. But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19. Shew me the tribute-money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21. They say unto him, Cesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render, therefore, unto Cesar the things which are Cesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way."
--Leftorium Quote - August 15, 2006 9:45pm

Leftorium,

Your understanding and perception of these scriptures is so farly distorted from the truth it is not funny. If it were me and I saw someone trying to distort scripture in such a manner I would probably delete the post. Let me explain these scriptures to you.

What Jesus was saying during the first scripture you quoted, was that as Christians we are not to go make a big scene while praying. Praying is a very quiet time with Jesus. A time when we are to focus upon him. In the quiet of our own homes (i.e. - in a closet, in a bedroom, etc etc). During prayer time we are to be attentive with God. Out in public there is background noise, you know it is hard to have a conversation amongst other people. We can't focus on what Jesus has to say to us. Not only that, but Jesus told them this because the pharisees prayed in public to boast themselves up. To make it look as if they were these righteous people. They wanted the focus of the attention to be on THEM. And you know, it isn't about us, it's all about Jesus. The heart of worship is about Jesus. Life itself, is about Jesus. He created all things, and has a plan for everyone. But we have to have our focus ON HIM. This wasn't about Seperation of Church and State, as you have so ignorantly coined it.

Now, about the taxes and coin. What Jesus was showing with the coin is that money is immaterial to God. That's the reason it has Cesar's picture upon it. Else if it was so important to God, then it would have his picture upon it. You see, what is important to God is not our money, but our spiritual thanksgiving and sacrifice. We must sacrifice our time, talents, and our all. Now, part of that sacrifice is giving our ten percent to God, but that is only in showing thanks to God for what he has done, in blessing us with salary to have food, clothes, living quarters, etc. You see, Jesus does not want his image on a coin, the coin has no soul, the coin has no emotion, or thought. It is merely just a device. But we, on the other hand, we have a soul, emotion, thought, feelings ... You see, he wants to inscribe himself upon us, his image is on our hearts. And when we allow him to transcribe that image, then people will see Jesus in us, just like they saw Cesar on the coin.

I'm not much of a scholar of Biblical history/facts, but I hope that you might have learned something from this. It really bothered me to see you post scripture and twist it the way you did ... of course I understand that you have only been taught what the liberals and atheistic congress people want you to believe. I will pray for you Leftorium, and all the other lefties who need Jesus Christ on this board. Jesus loved you so much that he died for you ... I hope that you will one day wake up and see that.

Lucas.

Rev,

You're right!

It gives me another opportunity to possibly educate a few "silent readers" about the history behind the Constitution, but then, there's another hundred million or so who won't get the message. It does get frustrating dealing with all of the liberal leavings though!

AAR