Wade Zirkle and Josh Clark, who have served a total of three tours in Iraq, give the soldiers-eye view of our politics over at Vets For Freedom (originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal):
Joseph Lieberman's primary loss might be a satisfying victory for the partisan extremes, but it is a sharp blow to bipartisan efforts to prevail in a global war that may span generations.
The political gamesmanship is heard by the troops on the front lines. Many in the media tend to portray our warriors as mindless pawns who are unaffected by debates on the home front. This misperception is largely a result of troops unwilling to openly talk politics with the press...
...Joe Lieberman is needed now as an independent voice to represent America's troops and their interests abroad in the war on terror. This is not to suggest that our troops do not welcome healthy debate about the direction of the war, or serious accountability of our leaders. But supporting our troops, understanding the stakes of the mission, and still constructively questioning military and civilian leadership is a difficult balance to strike -- and one on which Joe Lieberman has repeatedly risen to the occasion. This should be the model. Our national security agenda must never be borne out of divisive domestic campaigns that champion partisan vindictiveness. Semper Fi.
It is a difficult balance to strike - in a democratic Republic, dissent is vital for war to be conducted properly. It is just as important as the weapons the troops carry in to battle: only with the freedom to dissent and admonish can we be sure that the mission we have sent out troops on is the correct one, and is being properly conducted. Our best and bravest deserve to have their political leaders under extreme pressure to provide correct and clear-cut war policy - and only the assurance of dissent can provide this. The hard part is knowing where to draw the line between constructive criticism and destructive defeatism. It is hard - but the war critics have no conception of this because they have never tried to draw such a line.
Right from the start, the criticism of the war has been entirely unreasonable and pitched with no thought at all about whether it is helpful, or harmful, to the cause of the United States of America. The criticism has merely been the automatic gainsaying of whatever happens - and as this has progressed, it has naturally tended ever more towards a mere echo of enemy propaganda. This has made the war harder, and has lengthened the casuality list. There's not much we can do about it - the critics do have a right to criticise, even when it is harmful. All we can do is stand amazed at the constancy and courage of our troops in the face of the criticism, and hope that in good time the critics will wake up to what they have done.
Posted by Mark Noonan at August 12, 2006 02:08 AM
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Comments
The anti-war left has no concept of what we are facing in this war. They see it a vehicle to politicize and grab power.
As in a discussion with such a critic of the war, one told me the best possible weapon we have to fight the terrorists is the "comforts, freedoms and enlightenment" of the West.
How can you hold an intelligent discussion with these people when they think the very thing the Islamofascists hate the most is what we must use to appeal to their humanity and entice them to stop fighting?
Posted by:
Lew Waters at August 12, 2006 03:14 AM
Lew Waters, that's how I feel when I hear people say that "Islam is a peaceful religion that has been hijacked by fascists/extremists". How can we achieve victory in this global war when we can't even name the enemy? The enemy is Islam. Until the West confronts Islam itself, the best we can hope for is stave off terrorist attack after terrorist attack after terrorist attack, infinitum, because Islam will always create a new generation of Muslim terrorists. (Of course when the terrorists succeed in detonating a nuclear weapon in a major Western city, then all Hell will break loose. We won't care about "understanding" much of anything after that.)
Posted by: Freedom1 at August 12, 2006 03:41 AM
"Wade Zirkle and Josh Clark, who have served a total of three tours in Iraq, give the soldiers-eye view of our politics over at Vets For Freedom"
Hours Mark? Hour's? HOUR"S!!???? Are you trying to insult our intelligence?!!!
There are journalists who have been in iraq since the first shot was fired who are giving us the fully formed truth on what's happening there. In summary it's not good for your view.
This has made the war harder, and has lengthened the casuality list." Mark Noonan
You've stupped to a low I never thought you possible of reaching.
Shame on you Mark Noonan, Shame.
Today, in my eyes and many others, you've lost all credibility.
Posted by: Leftorium at August 12, 2006 06:13 AM
Shame on you Mark Noonan, Shame.
Today, in my eyes and many others, you've lost all credibility.
Yes, Mark, in the eyes of the following, you have no credibility:
Leftorium, Barney, Ash, axis, winnowhead, DAV, raker13, CO, and congressive.
I know this breaks your heart, Mark.
Anyone care to add to the list? I'm trying to get the total IQ, of those who hate Mark, above ten. the way I see it, I'm about six points short. War
Posted by: keefer at August 12, 2006 07:06 AM
Lefty, Uh.........you whined......
"Wade Zirkle and Josh Clark, who have served a total of three tours in Iraq, give the soldiers-eye view of our politics over at Vets For Freedom"
Hours Mark? Hour's? HOUR"S!!???? Are you trying to insult our intelligence?!!!"
Uh...no, you've just insulted yours!
It's not "HOURS!" it TOURS, T-O-U-R-S! As in service tours....that is a helluvalot longer than most of you lib arm-chair generals.
Lefty, you are too eager.....to jump on the Bush hating wagon. But, what can we expect from those who put political power above all else!
Posted by: TiredofLibBullShit at August 12, 2006 08:08 AM
Leftorium,
There are no words for your comment.....but let me add to your enlightenment. The "embedded journalists", the term I think you were looking for also do "tours" there is not one, not a single one, who has been there since the beginning of the Iraq war in 2003. Shame on you for not knowing the rest of us here prefer to deal with the facts, just the facts Man.
Posted by: mary s at August 12, 2006 09:04 AM
Someone can actually compare "journalists" gleaning stories for others while sitting in air conditioned hotel lobbies to brave military members that are actually creating that news?
The left is starting to remind me of all the love and support we received as we returned from Viet Nam.
Only a lefty would actually think some reporter would know better about what is going on than the people actually doing it.
Posted by:
Lew Waters at August 12, 2006 10:53 AM
[deleted, violation of comment policy]
Posted by: Brokeback at August 12, 2006 11:36 AM
[deleted, violation of comment policy]
Posted by: Brokeback at August 12, 2006 11:58 AM
[deleted, violation of comment policy, banned until further notice]
Posted by: Brokeback at August 12, 2006 12:00 PM
"You do realize that there are plenty of soldiers in this war that hold a liberal view point. Not all soldiers are conservatives as everyone on this site seems to think."
Of course we know that soldiers can hold different viewpoints. They're not robots. However, if I remember the stats correctly, 70% or more are conservative, and a vast majority support what they're doing over there.
Why is it, though, that you completely overlook the views of that vast majority, and trumpet from the rooftops the views of a small minority as the ONLY valid views on the subject?
It's the same thing we see repeated over and over again. Cindy Sheehan and a few of her Gold Star Families are given high status in the news and such BECAUSE their views match what the newswriters want to portray. A large majority believe otherwise, though, and their views are ignored.
Posted by: LNC at August 12, 2006 12:57 PM
I'm big enough to admit when a part of my post is wrong and I was wrong when I misread one word in Mark's post. So there. It's tour's and not hours. I'll retract that first part of my statement.
I do not retract anything I've said about this blame the messenger mentallity I see going on here however.
Posted by: Leftorium at August 12, 2006 01:10 PM
I see going on here however.
So, go away. We likewise don't care for your "opinions." Looks like a win-win to me.
Posted by:
Reverend Scaramonga at August 12, 2006 01:30 PM
Rev-
Your post seems to suggest that I said I don't care for conservatives opinions. I never said that. I may not like them, I may think some, maybe even many of them are irrational, but I never say I don't care to hear them.
Quite simply if you don't care for progressive's posts here then you don't have to tag on to them like you always try to do. You never respond with anything thoughtful, helpful, or even contrary. It's obvious to most that you're here to get attention because over there in Curiousville it's mighty lonely. One thing's for sure you never seem to miss one of our posts so I'm not buying that you don't care about us.
Posted by: Leftorium at August 12, 2006 04:53 PM
Your post seems to suggest that I said I don't care for conservatives opinions.
Sorry that you think that's what I "suggested." What I suggested is that no one cares what you care about or don't care about and we'd all be better if you just went away - for good.
Quite simply if you don't care for progressive's posts here then you don't have to tag on to them like you always try to do.
Progressive? Hahahaha! Neanderthal is the right word. Tag on them? Is that some "text messaging lingo" that you "progressives" use?
You never respond with anything thoughtful, helpful, or even contrary.
Perhaps you should ask why that seems to be the case.
It's obvious to most that you're here to get attention because over there in Curiousville it's mighty lonely.
Wrong, but I am not surprised - you're always wrong. If you came to my site and tried to leave a comment, no matter how innocuous, I would ban you forever. I don't allow low-lifes such as you to pollute my blog.
One thing's for sure you never seem to miss one of our posts so I'm not buying that you don't care about us.
You confuse "caring" with "laughing at." You and your fellow loonies from the left are the funniest things I've seen since I was a little kid and watched all those clowns get out of that little car at the Ringling Brothers Circus when it came to town. So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now. You will not be missed - even for a second.
Posted by:
Reverend Scaramonga at August 12, 2006 08:43 PM
You confuse "caring" with "laughing at."
I couldn't agree more. And clowns getting out of those little cars? Great analogy--I am picturing Reid-tard, Piglosi, Lurch, and the Swimmer in clown make-up, and it's easy to visualize.
Take the Rev's advice, trolls--go away. There's plenty of kook blogs, just for you, where noone will laugh at your sorry arses. War
Posted by: keefer at August 12, 2006 10:35 PM
Oh look the reverend keefer is agreeing with himself again.
Banning people from your blog? You really can't afford to ban anyone. You should get a theme song for it though. Might i suggest Lonesome Town by Ricky Nelson?
"So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now."
Awwwww still suffering from grandiose notions that you have any real say on this blog? As for my leaving, this blog is starting to burn out from the looks of it, so I don’t think you can afford to lose any of us Progressives. Besides without Progressives how would you Conseratists know who you were? All you do here is go on and on about how much you hate liberals. No ideas. I haven't read one post yet that doesn’t defame a Progressive with some half thought out irrational stereotype. Deriding us is all that you have left to keep cohesion amongst yourselves all while trying to inject some sense of self-esteem into your movement which has seen it’s best days and is now in decline.
You can see it around here by the comments sections. The amount of comments are getting fewer and fewer by the day. B4B can barely crack middle double digits any longer and when you do it's usually because some progressive said something and you chime in with about 8 or 10 "Get off our site" or "Liberals are Evil" comments.
All the while over at Kos it's a buzz of activity with hundreds of comments with enthusiasm and ideas from almost every post. There's a sense of possibiltiy on the Left again. Something I have'nt seen since the early 90's. It couldn't have come at a more necessary time if you ask me.
Before you say "why don't you just stay there" I'll say I don't need to spend all my time in my own camp.I know how they think because for the most part it's how I think. I'm here to listen to alternative views and sometimes, occasionally, these days rarely, there is one that isn't laced with some poisonous invective against the Left. Anyhow from what i'm seeing and what you're showing, looks like the wheels of new or neo-conservatism may finally be grinding to a rusty halt. Not a moment too soon.
In the mean time pick up a copy of John Dean's new book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Find out what happened to your party.
Posted by: Leftorium at August 15, 2006 04:35 AM
Oh look the reverend keefer is agreeing with himself again.
Banning people from your blog? You really can't afford to ban anyone. You should get a theme song for it though. Might i suggest Lonesome Town by Ricky Nelson?
"So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now."
Awwwww still suffering from grandiose notions that you have any real say on this blog? As for my leaving, this blog is starting to burn out from the looks of it, so I don’t think you can afford to lose any of us Progressives. Besides without Progressives how would you Conseratists know who you were? All you do here is go on and on about how much you hate liberals. No ideas. I haven't read one post yet that doesn’t defame a Progressive with some half thought out irrational stereotype. Deriding us is all that you have left to keep cohesion amongst yourselves all while trying to inject some sense of self-esteem into your movement which has seen it’s best days and is now in decline.
You can see it around here by the comments sections. The amount of comments are getting fewer and fewer by the day. B4B can barely crack middle double digits any longer and when you do it's usually because some progressive said something and you chime in with about 8 or 10 "Get off our site" or "Liberals are Evil" comments.
All the while over at Kos it's a buzz of activity with hundreds of comments with enthusiasm and ideas from almost every post. There's a sense of possibiltiy on the Left again. Something I have'nt seen since the early 90's. It couldn't have come at a more necessary time if you ask me.
Before you say "why don't you just stay there" I'll say I don't need to spend all my time in my own camp.I know how they think because for the most part it's how I think. I'm here to listen to alternative views and sometimes, occasionally, these days rarely, there is one that isn't laced with some poisonous invective against the Left. Anyhow from what i'm seeing and what you're showing, looks like the wheels of new or neo-conservatism may finally be grinding to a rusty halt. Not a momment to soon.
In the mean time pick up a copy of John Dean's new book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Find out what happened to your party.
Posted by: Leftorium at August 15, 2006 04:37 AM
Please report any inappropriate comments to abuse (at) blogsforbush (dot) com. Be sure to include the title of the blog entry, the name of the commenter, and the text of the offending comment.
Post a comment
The anti-war left has no concept of what we are facing in this war. They see it a vehicle to politicize and grab power.
As in a discussion with such a critic of the war, one told me the best possible weapon we have to fight the terrorists is the "comforts, freedoms and enlightenment" of the West.
How can you hold an intelligent discussion with these people when they think the very thing the Islamofascists hate the most is what we must use to appeal to their humanity and entice them to stop fighting?
Lew Waters, that's how I feel when I hear people say that "Islam is a peaceful religion that has been hijacked by fascists/extremists". How can we achieve victory in this global war when we can't even name the enemy? The enemy is Islam. Until the West confronts Islam itself, the best we can hope for is stave off terrorist attack after terrorist attack after terrorist attack, infinitum, because Islam will always create a new generation of Muslim terrorists. (Of course when the terrorists succeed in detonating a nuclear weapon in a major Western city, then all Hell will break loose. We won't care about "understanding" much of anything after that.)
"Wade Zirkle and Josh Clark, who have served a total of three tours in Iraq, give the soldiers-eye view of our politics over at Vets For Freedom"
Hours Mark? Hour's? HOUR"S!!???? Are you trying to insult our intelligence?!!!
There are journalists who have been in iraq since the first shot was fired who are giving us the fully formed truth on what's happening there. In summary it's not good for your view.
This has made the war harder, and has lengthened the casuality list." Mark Noonan
You've stupped to a low I never thought you possible of reaching.
Shame on you Mark Noonan, Shame.
Today, in my eyes and many others, you've lost all credibility.
Shame on you Mark Noonan, Shame.
Today, in my eyes and many others, you've lost all credibility.
Yes, Mark, in the eyes of the following, you have no credibility:
Leftorium, Barney, Ash, axis, winnowhead, DAV, raker13, CO, and congressive.
I know this breaks your heart, Mark.
Anyone care to add to the list? I'm trying to get the total IQ, of those who hate Mark, above ten. the way I see it, I'm about six points short. War
Lefty, Uh.........you whined......
"Wade Zirkle and Josh Clark, who have served a total of three tours in Iraq, give the soldiers-eye view of our politics over at Vets For Freedom"
Hours Mark? Hour's? HOUR"S!!???? Are you trying to insult our intelligence?!!!"
Uh...no, you've just insulted yours!
It's not "HOURS!" it TOURS, T-O-U-R-S! As in service tours....that is a helluvalot longer than most of you lib arm-chair generals.
Lefty, you are too eager.....to jump on the Bush hating wagon. But, what can we expect from those who put political power above all else!
Leftorium,
There are no words for your comment.....but let me add to your enlightenment. The "embedded journalists", the term I think you were looking for also do "tours" there is not one, not a single one, who has been there since the beginning of the Iraq war in 2003. Shame on you for not knowing the rest of us here prefer to deal with the facts, just the facts Man.
Someone can actually compare "journalists" gleaning stories for others while sitting in air conditioned hotel lobbies to brave military members that are actually creating that news?
The left is starting to remind me of all the love and support we received as we returned from Viet Nam.
Only a lefty would actually think some reporter would know better about what is going on than the people actually doing it.
[deleted, violation of comment policy]
[deleted, violation of comment policy]
[deleted, violation of comment policy, banned until further notice]
"You do realize that there are plenty of soldiers in this war that hold a liberal view point. Not all soldiers are conservatives as everyone on this site seems to think."
Of course we know that soldiers can hold different viewpoints. They're not robots. However, if I remember the stats correctly, 70% or more are conservative, and a vast majority support what they're doing over there.
Why is it, though, that you completely overlook the views of that vast majority, and trumpet from the rooftops the views of a small minority as the ONLY valid views on the subject?
It's the same thing we see repeated over and over again. Cindy Sheehan and a few of her Gold Star Families are given high status in the news and such BECAUSE their views match what the newswriters want to portray. A large majority believe otherwise, though, and their views are ignored.
I'm big enough to admit when a part of my post is wrong and I was wrong when I misread one word in Mark's post. So there. It's tour's and not hours. I'll retract that first part of my statement.
I do not retract anything I've said about this blame the messenger mentallity I see going on here however.
I see going on here however.
So, go away. We likewise don't care for your "opinions." Looks like a win-win to me.
Rev-
Your post seems to suggest that I said I don't care for conservatives opinions. I never said that. I may not like them, I may think some, maybe even many of them are irrational, but I never say I don't care to hear them.
Quite simply if you don't care for progressive's posts here then you don't have to tag on to them like you always try to do. You never respond with anything thoughtful, helpful, or even contrary. It's obvious to most that you're here to get attention because over there in Curiousville it's mighty lonely. One thing's for sure you never seem to miss one of our posts so I'm not buying that you don't care about us.
Your post seems to suggest that I said I don't care for conservatives opinions.
Sorry that you think that's what I "suggested." What I suggested is that no one cares what you care about or don't care about and we'd all be better if you just went away - for good.
Quite simply if you don't care for progressive's posts here then you don't have to tag on to them like you always try to do.
Progressive? Hahahaha! Neanderthal is the right word. Tag on them? Is that some "text messaging lingo" that you "progressives" use?
You never respond with anything thoughtful, helpful, or even contrary.
Perhaps you should ask why that seems to be the case.
It's obvious to most that you're here to get attention because over there in Curiousville it's mighty lonely.
Wrong, but I am not surprised - you're always wrong. If you came to my site and tried to leave a comment, no matter how innocuous, I would ban you forever. I don't allow low-lifes such as you to pollute my blog.
One thing's for sure you never seem to miss one of our posts so I'm not buying that you don't care about us.
You confuse "caring" with "laughing at." You and your fellow loonies from the left are the funniest things I've seen since I was a little kid and watched all those clowns get out of that little car at the Ringling Brothers Circus when it came to town. So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now. You will not be missed - even for a second.
You confuse "caring" with "laughing at."
I couldn't agree more. And clowns getting out of those little cars? Great analogy--I am picturing Reid-tard, Piglosi, Lurch, and the Swimmer in clown make-up, and it's easy to visualize.
Take the Rev's advice, trolls--go away. There's plenty of kook blogs, just for you, where noone will laugh at your sorry arses. War
Oh look the reverend keefer is agreeing with himself again.
Banning people from your blog? You really can't afford to ban anyone. You should get a theme song for it though. Might i suggest Lonesome Town by Ricky Nelson?
"So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now."
Awwwww still suffering from grandiose notions that you have any real say on this blog? As for my leaving, this blog is starting to burn out from the looks of it, so I don’t think you can afford to lose any of us Progressives. Besides without Progressives how would you Conseratists know who you were? All you do here is go on and on about how much you hate liberals. No ideas. I haven't read one post yet that doesn’t defame a Progressive with some half thought out irrational stereotype. Deriding us is all that you have left to keep cohesion amongst yourselves all while trying to inject some sense of self-esteem into your movement which has seen it’s best days and is now in decline.
You can see it around here by the comments sections. The amount of comments are getting fewer and fewer by the day. B4B can barely crack middle double digits any longer and when you do it's usually because some progressive said something and you chime in with about 8 or 10 "Get off our site" or "Liberals are Evil" comments.
All the while over at Kos it's a buzz of activity with hundreds of comments with enthusiasm and ideas from almost every post. There's a sense of possibiltiy on the Left again. Something I have'nt seen since the early 90's. It couldn't have come at a more necessary time if you ask me.
Before you say "why don't you just stay there" I'll say I don't need to spend all my time in my own camp.I know how they think because for the most part it's how I think. I'm here to listen to alternative views and sometimes, occasionally, these days rarely, there is one that isn't laced with some poisonous invective against the Left. Anyhow from what i'm seeing and what you're showing, looks like the wheels of new or neo-conservatism may finally be grinding to a rusty halt. Not a moment too soon.
In the mean time pick up a copy of John Dean's new book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Find out what happened to your party.
Oh look the reverend keefer is agreeing with himself again.
Banning people from your blog? You really can't afford to ban anyone. You should get a theme song for it though. Might i suggest Lonesome Town by Ricky Nelson?
"So, I repeat my suggestion to you...go away - avoid the pre-school rush - do it now."
Awwwww still suffering from grandiose notions that you have any real say on this blog? As for my leaving, this blog is starting to burn out from the looks of it, so I don’t think you can afford to lose any of us Progressives. Besides without Progressives how would you Conseratists know who you were? All you do here is go on and on about how much you hate liberals. No ideas. I haven't read one post yet that doesn’t defame a Progressive with some half thought out irrational stereotype. Deriding us is all that you have left to keep cohesion amongst yourselves all while trying to inject some sense of self-esteem into your movement which has seen it’s best days and is now in decline.
You can see it around here by the comments sections. The amount of comments are getting fewer and fewer by the day. B4B can barely crack middle double digits any longer and when you do it's usually because some progressive said something and you chime in with about 8 or 10 "Get off our site" or "Liberals are Evil" comments.
All the while over at Kos it's a buzz of activity with hundreds of comments with enthusiasm and ideas from almost every post. There's a sense of possibiltiy on the Left again. Something I have'nt seen since the early 90's. It couldn't have come at a more necessary time if you ask me.
Before you say "why don't you just stay there" I'll say I don't need to spend all my time in my own camp.I know how they think because for the most part it's how I think. I'm here to listen to alternative views and sometimes, occasionally, these days rarely, there is one that isn't laced with some poisonous invective against the Left. Anyhow from what i'm seeing and what you're showing, looks like the wheels of new or neo-conservatism may finally be grinding to a rusty halt. Not a momment to soon.
In the mean time pick up a copy of John Dean's new book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Find out what happened to your party.