And will soon start making noise about how that signals intelligence infringed on the terrorists rights. As well as the new security measures infringing on the traveling publics rights. Me, I will take the extra security, my rights are safe, and my life is safer with them.

Thursday, Aug. 10, 2006 4:48 p.m. EDT
U.S. Poll: Large Minority Fear, Mistrust Muslims
USA Today/Gallup poll:

Nearly four in 10 Americans admit having feelings of prejudice against Muslims living in the U.S. and are in favor of having Muslims carrying a special ID

22 percent of those surveyed said they would not like to have a Muslim as a neighbor.

31 percent of respondents said they would feel nervous if they noticed a Muslim man on their airplane flight

18 percent would feel nervous about a Muslim woman flying with them.

49 percent feel that Muslims living in the U.S. are loyal to this country.

34 percent believe American Muslims are sympathetic to the al-Qaida terrorist organization.

40 percent of respondents said they believe Muslims in the U.S. are not respectful of other religions

44 percent said Muslims are too extreme in their religious beliefs.

52 percent believe Muslims are not respectful of women.

39 percent said the U.S. should require Muslims to carry a special ID

57 percent believe Muslims should undergo more intensive security checks at airports.

39 percent said they "have at least some feelings of prejudice against Muslims
59 percent said they did not, and 2 percent had no opinion.

Opinions are different, however, among Americans who are personally acquainted with a Muslim, the poll disclosed.
For example:
10 percent of those who know a Muslim said they would not want one as a neighbor
24 percent believe Muslims should carry a special ID – compared to 50 percent among those who don’t know a Muslim.

Are these results MY fault? Are they the fault of other sites like Little Green Footballs or Jihad Watch?
I think it it’s the fault of C.A.I.R and the speeches, rallies and public statements NOT made that are the cause of the feelings shown in this poll. Personally I think the vast majority of Americans want to live well and harmoniously with their American moslem brothers its just that we never see the American moslem community trying to reach out to us. They didn’t attend that rally held in Washington specifically for them (you recall the one I am talking about...it was a flop). C.A.I.R. will say this poll shows Americans are bigots…BULL! It’s up to American Moslems to prove us wrong. We want you too, really.
What do you think? Please comment. @ my site, thanks
-Steve

Thursday, Aug. 10, 2006 4:48 p.m. EDT
U.S. Poll: Large Minority Fear, Mistrust Muslims
USA Today/Gallup poll:

Nearly four in 10 Americans admit having feelings of prejudice against Muslims living in the U.S. and are in favor of having Muslims carrying a special ID

22 percent of those surveyed said they would not like to have a Muslim as a neighbor.

31 percent of respondents said they would feel nervous if they noticed a Muslim man on their airplane flight

18 percent would feel nervous about a Muslim woman flying with them.

49 percent feel that Muslims living in the U.S. are loyal to this country.

34 percent believe American Muslims are sympathetic to the al-Qaida terrorist organization.

40 percent of respondents said they believe Muslims in the U.S. are not respectful of other religions

44 percent said Muslims are too extreme in their religious beliefs.

52 percent believe Muslims are not respectful of women.

39 percent said the U.S. should require Muslims to carry a special ID

57 percent believe Muslims should undergo more intensive security checks at airports.

39 percent said they "have at least some feelings of prejudice against Muslims
59 percent said they did not, and 2 percent had no opinion.

Opinions are different, however, among Americans who are personally acquainted with a Muslim, the poll disclosed.
For example:
10 percent of those who know a Muslim said they would not want one as a neighbor
24 percent believe Muslims should carry a special ID – compared to 50 percent among those who don’t know a Muslim.

Are these results MY fault? Are they the fault of other sites like Little Green Footballs or Jihad Watch?
I think it it’s the fault of C.A.I.R and the speeches, rallies and public statements NOT made that are the cause of the feelings shown in this poll. Personally I think the vast majority of Americans want to live well and harmoniously with their American moslem brothers its just that we never see the American moslem community trying to reach out to us. They didn’t attend that rally held in Washington specifically for them (you recall the one I am talking about...it was a flop). C.A.I.R. will say this poll shows Americans are bigots…BULL! It’s up to American Moslems to prove us wrong. We want you too, really.
What do you think? Please comment. @ my site, thanks
-Steve

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1225453,00.html

Time says NSA triggered the investigation

The fact that the common-sense program was done illegally is what caused rage on the both the left and the right and in the middle.

Nope, wrong. You'll be hearing screaming that you refuse to use the "rubber stamp court" because the only thing they won't approve is your monitoring of John Kerry's phone calls.

We could have provided all the same info using FISA. What we could NOT have done is wiretapped Claire McCaskill's or Jon Tester's phones looking for stuff to exploit.

Funny how much you guys crow about "freedom" while all of yours are being taken away. Anyway it's too nice a weekend to sit here and try to explain this to you. Take er easy. Peace

If the non-radical Muslims in this country, and worldwide, would stand up to the Islamofascists who are hijacking their religion, maybe some of this bigotry would go away.

It's hard to discern whom to trust anymore. War

Ok, I'm confused as hell about this post. When last we met on this issue you went on about how a signals intelligence program was not evesdropping at all - but rather a study of the patterns of the numbers called (or metadata) and how they might lead to a discovery of terrorist activity. Now you are telling us that signals intelligence is "listening in on communications".

Also, since the only all of the components of this plot were located in the UK and Pakistan, how is this related to US domestic spying at all? The Time article most likely most likely refers to US evesdropping on foreign communications which they shared with the British goverment. I don't recall that lefties have ever been opposed to foreign surveillance.

In your zeal to spin current events into support for right wing policies, you're running pretty loose with the facts.

Why don't I see Clerics on television denouncing terrorist acts? I don't think the mass media could be playing this down, I don't think the majority of Muslims are being heard! It is not a hostile religion, they just have a few bad pitas.

...you went on about how a signals intelligence program was not evesdropping at all - but rather a study of the patterns of the numbers called (or metadata) and how they might lead to a discovery of terrorist activity.

You misunderstood--he was talking about the collection of phone calling records, but he didn't mean that signals intelligence was limited to just that. SIGINT emcompasses a wide spectrum.

Mark, did you hear about Chuck Schumer? Apparently, he was in London when this went down, and his flight back to the U.S. was postponed. He whined to the AP about it being "a nightmare."

What kind of nightmare would he have had if these guys had not been caught? Also, the "illegal warrantless eavesdropping data-mining domestic spying" program he opposes may have saved his life.

I wonder if he's going to thank Blair/Bush. War

Anyway it's too nice a weekend to sit here and try to explain this to you.

Good, because it's too nice a weekend to read your troll b/s. War

Nowhere in this article does it say that the NSA triggered this investigation. The article DOES state that British intelligence had been tracking these cells for months, Us intelligence provided intercepted communications of those the Brits were tracking.

Furthermore, nowhere in this article does it say anything about signals intelligence or anything of its kind. The timetable implied here (Brits find out about these cells and track them, US provides assisting surveillance) means that the US intelligence agencies were most likely alerted by Brits to these cells and then began tracking them. All of this is easily accomplished under our existing laws, no need for illegal wiretapping or signals intelligence.

Final point: isn't it interesting how law enforcement was able to take down a terrorist plot? I thought law enforcement couldn't do that..

PEOPLE WAKE UP:

It is a case of garnering facts on Terrorists who
'WANT TO KILL YOU'.....SO, does this mean you are opposed, "cause it will infringe on your privacy-
DEAD, IS DEAD.......I personally think the agency
needs to hone in on the waves of killers, and I wouldn't care if they DID hear my phone calls-

NOTHING TO HIDE, AND....IF IT CAN TURN OVER THE KILLERS OF AMERICANS I AM ALL FOR IT.

LIKE I SAY: If you want to 'block the information flow, you are risking your lives, and
the lives of your loved ones'. I WANT these Bastards caught, before they kill any other Americans. You should too.

Time Mag is reporting:

Exclusive: U.S. picked up the suspects' chatter and shared it with British authorities; new federal alert warns that peroxide-based explosives could also be employed in future attacks in the U.S.

In spite of .... in SPITE OF the rabid left and their squawking about the rights of terrorists...

Now you are telling us that signals intelligence is "listening in on communications".

Come on, extramedium, are you really that dense? I used to have a patch on my navy flight jacket that explained it for people like you. It said "In God we Trust -- all others we monitor"

The fact that the common-sense program was done illegally is what caused rage on the both the left and the right and in the middle.

Posted by: westmich at August 11, 2006 04:31 PM

westmich...

Mind explaining how it was done illegally?

While you stumble around attempting to gin up a response...

I'll save you some trouble..

Nothing illegal was done...period...

You can find 5 case precidents where Appeals courts have held the President HAS the constitutional(Article II) authority to conduct warrantless wire taps where national security is an issue....

Two such cases are: Truong v. US(1980 4th Circuit) and Brown v. US(1973 5th Circuit)

In the case of Truong..it was found to be legal for President Jimmy Carter to authorize a warrantless tap and in that case BOTH ends of the conversations took place in the USA...and that was a physical wiretap that last 250+ days...not pulling electrons out of the air..

Lastly decades upon decades of legal precidence gives the US government authority to intercept and inspect ANY package, box, container, letter etc etc etc. that has a foreign destination or origin... Hell your ass can be inspected without a warrant if you're coming back from a trip overseas/foreign country.....

So to believe a phone call or email with foreign destinations or origins can't be listened to without a warrant is ...foolish...

Hell even the 9th Circuit just held an individual who travels overseas and returns..can have ANYTHING opened/searched...including ALL files in a laptop...

I guess I am that dense.

Sounds like a cool jacket, but I don't see how what you said has anything to do with what I said.

but I don't see how what you said has anything to do with what I said.

Well, I could explain it in detail, but then I'd have to kill you, heh.

RS,
Great to have you back....go ahead explain it to him! PPLLEEAASSEE!
Mary

mary s, one cannot explain logic to the illogical. War

No but it is sometimes fun watching the illogical try to figure out what you said. Cheap entertainment as long as the illogical person is not in a position of power.

KJ, Keefer,
I'd almost quess that extramedium was really Alan Colmes, but I think Alan's still out chasing Mike Wallace down for his autograph!

go ahead explain it to him! PPLLEEAASSEE!

Would that make your day, Mary?

It is next to impossible to explain intelligence matters to Libs. First of all, there's that "intelligence" thing -- Libs don't have any. Second, spooks don't always play by the rules -- don't always play fair; sort of "the ends justify the means", so to speak. Libs don't like "unfair", particularly as it applies to the treatment of our enemies, but, come to think of it, Libs invented "the ends justify the means", so actually, they should understand. (God, I knew I shouldn't have had that third glass of wine.) I really thought I was spelling it out pretty clearly when I said "In God we trust -- all others we monitor".

As more details emerge, we start to see a clear picture of lots of intelligence work both here and abroad that led to the busts of the terrorist plotters in Great Britain and Pakistan - and now 40 more in Italy.

By late 2005, the probe had expanded to involve several hundred investigators on three continents. They kept dozens of suspects under close surveillance for months, even as some of the plotters traveled between Britain and Pakistan to raise money, find recruits and refine their scheme, according to interviews with U.S. and European counterterrorism officials.

Precise details of the plot -- how many planes, their destinations and the date -- remain unknown. The shape of the operation changed regularly as the would-be bombers considered which transatlantic flights to target and prepared for a practice run, which was expected to take place in the next few days, U.S. law enforcement officials said.

Investigators eventually pieced together enough information from a blizzard of stakeouts, tips and wiretaps to make clear that something big was in the works, and that the plotters' preparations were nearing an end.

"It's not like three weeks ago all of a sudden MI5 knew about this plot and went to work," added a U.S. law enforcement official, speaking of the British security service. "They'd had a concern about these guys for some time -- for months. Details started to emerge, and it became clear over the last couple weeks the nature of the threat and the individuals," said the official, who like others interviewed for this story spoke on condition of anonymity.

A law enforcement bulletin issued Thursday by the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI described the conspiracy as "international in scope" but said there was no evidence that the plotters or any accomplices had set foot in the United States. "This plot appears to have been well planned and well advanced and in the final stages of preparation," the bulletin stated.

One U.S. intelligence source, however, said some of the British suspects arrested had made calls to the United States.

Source: The Washington Post

We owe them all a debt of gratitude and our whole-hearted support. They saved another 9/11 from happening and today it is back to work to try to stop the next one.

Cheap entertainment as long as the illogical person is not in a position of power.

Geez, is that all I am to you, kjs, cheap entertainment? Looks like my previous post dropped into the Server Error black hole. Oh well, guess I better have another glass of wine.

Spook, you are education to me. Extramedium's response would be the entertainment. When I read your posts I usually learn something new.

KJ, Keefer,
I'd almost quess that extramedium was really Alan Colmes, but I think Alan's still out chasing Mike Wallace down for his autograph!

Good one, mary s--funny but not offensive. However, I think you just insulted Alan Colmes. War

AJ Strata had a great post last night recounting his travel experience flying out of LAX yesterday.

kjs, I'm relieved (and flattered). Although I can think of a number of adjectives to describe extramedium, "entertaining" is not one of them. I think he himself said it best:

"I guess I am that dense".

Only if by dense he/she means downright dumb. I guess I enjoy watching some people make complete and utter fools of themselves.

I guess I enjoy watching some people make complete and utter fools of themselves.

You're right; it is cheap entertainment. I enjoy your posts too. You appear to have a pretty good grasp of what makes Libs tick.

The left is either really dumb (highly possible) or is acting that way so they won't have to give W any credit (that may also be because they are dumb).

I think that I have a pretty good idea what SIGINT is and how it was used. My squadron did EW and some small SIGINT work. But since then, I’ve been in the computer and networking industry in the D.C area for many years.

I've argued before that the Justice Department needs warrants, the military does not. Are these people criminals? Or, are they un-uniformed combatants acting as saboteurs? No uniform and wanting to deliberately kill civilians make them worthy of bullets either way. Hey, sounds like a job for the military.

By the way, the British system is set up differently than ours. That’s why you'll see the SAS doing raids and handling hostage situations. They (SAS) are military...couldn’t do that here.

But I wouldn’t bother trying to explain this to the liberal posters. Like their leaders, they can’t or deliberately won’t understand. That’s why they can’t be trusted. Their inane comments here and professed ignorance of intelligence systems is EXACTLY why they can’t be trusted with national security. The only way to expose them is to goad them into telling the truth about who they are and what they stand for. They are their own worst enemies.

nuk,

Who the heck is McCaskill?

westmich,

Its a war, not an episode of "Law and Order"...we don't need a warrant to fight a war, nor gather intelligence on the enemy.

Glad I could entertain you all. My pleasure. ;-)

Now back to the point. Jo - what I'm hearing you say to your government as it regards warrantless wiretapping is "go ahead and ignore the laws, take as much of my freedom and privacy away as you see fit, because I'm really afraid of terrorists."

What ever happened to the land of the Free and the Brave? Have we become such cowards that we would stop insisting that our leaders follow the law.

Go ahead - shower me with your brilliant wisdom and entertain yourselves some more...and don't forget to congratulate each other after!

Glad I could entertain you all. My pleasure. ;-)

Now back to the point. Jo - what I'm hearing you say to your government as it regards warrantless wiretapping is "go ahead and ignore the laws, take as much of my freedom and privacy away as you see fit, because I'm really afraid of terrorists."

What ever happened to the land of the Free and the Brave? Have we become such cowards that we would stop insisting that our leaders follow the law.

Go ahead - shower me with your brilliant wisdom and entertain yourselves some more...and don't forget to congratulate each other after!

Extra is right. The outrage/concern about the NSA program was that it was done domestically without warrants. It wasn't against the actual program. No one called for it to cease.

This is a great example of how we need to defend ourselves. Liberals are not against intel and law enforcement to fight the war on terror. In fact, that was the conservative rap on how Clinton decided to fight AQ, remember?

Also, no one (or pretty much no one) is against the monitoring program. The concern and in some cases outrage came when Bush and co. did so without warrants.

From what I've read, the monitoring program did not uncover this cell. A tip from some lady did. The monitoring certainly played a big role, but from what I've read so far, a tip led to survellance and monitoring. No one has a problem of using these tools if there's probable cause on against foreigners Seems there was probable cause and Americans weren't monitored without probable cause.

So good work by the Brits, US and everyone else involved. Sucks that I can't fly with an ipod though. f*cking terrorists.

Tom,
Once again the warrants are obtained legally, this is not an illegal operation when fighting terrorist threats. You know the sad thing about this, is that Brittish Intelligence was reluctant to share it's information at first. Due to the destructive and potentially devastating leaks from the CIA, yep there are libs there too, that would like to destroy Bush, and put our country in greater harm. They have the NY Times to help them out. I heard a commentator suggest we should outsource more of our intelligence contracts, one suggestion I thought was a great idea was to give a contract to the Mossad. Don't like the new travel quidelines? This is here forever, unless we completely defeat the Terrorists, maybe the loss of tour i-pod will inspire you now!

Oh, and Keefer, Rev, Retired Spook, kjstrouble, Kahn,
You all crack me up tremendously!! I LMAO, but like any good teachers, I learn a great deal from you, all while having a little fun with the libs!!! Let me be the first to pat you all on the backs!!!!

Once again extra:

I said I would not care "personally if MY calls were listened in on".....I am NOT forgetting the
Constitution. OUR PRESIDENT IN TIME OF "WAR" HAS THE RIGHTS AFFORDED HIM, TO PROTECT THE CITIZENS OF AMERICA-LEGALLY. "What part of that
do YOU, not understand. Nothing here is done on
an illegal basis. Don't you think many, of the
Whitehouse/legal Advisors, and Attornies have all
"Advised the President on HIS rights in time of WAR?" Get a life, and you better hope, that you
can keep your life. When you realize who is trying to keep YOU alive-President Bush-maybe then
you will show some kind of respect for THIS President who has shown some backbone, integrity,
and protection of Americans. Or, are you really
That Dumb?

By the way, what happened to the land of the Free
and the Brave? They were HIT on 9/ll, and thanks
to President Bush, we are being protected each and every day to thwart another attack by these
Terrorists who want to Kill Americans.

The Brave, are OVER in the Mideast fighting for our freedoms, and the Free, ARE Free, thanks to the BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM.

GETTING THIS EXTRA?

GETTING THIS EXTRA?

My bet's on no. See, libbies have this special talent that only libbies can possible possess to read the really, really, really, really small print in the Constitution that nobody else can see. That's how they found that "right to an abortion - even if the baby's kicking and screaming" along with the "right to marry anything that has an orifice of any kind and is breathing (or not)."

So we must depend on their superior eyesight and abilities to read that really, really, really, really small print lest some unfortunate terrorist has his rights taken away without due process and stuff.

BSOD yet again...

To all you warriors, former warriors, and supporters of warriors out there on this blog, I want to say thanks. It’s been a long, sad, frightening week, and this Saturday morning you gave me several good, healing laughs. Keep up the good work. And to all you folk serving, or ever having served in our military, I say another thank you. To all you Viet Nam vets who never got a proper welcome home and a thank you, I say it now: welcome home and well done. And Keefer, whoever you are, I appreciate how you sign your notes: War. I hate war, too, but I’m old enough to realize we must conduct war at times. That’s why when I send my check in to pay my income tax every April, I feel really cheerful about it. I hope they use it to help buy another bomber. Or to buy the artificial limb for a guy I know who lost his leg in Iraq. Or to send more arms to the Israelis. I’m in it for the long haul. And I encourage all of you who are busy out there communicating the message of freedom, and the cost of that freedom. Was it Jefferson (or who?) who said the Tree of Liberty must sometimes be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.
Maewynia, supporter of warriors

TS,

"Extra is right. The outrage/concern about the NSA program was that it was done domestically without warrants. It wasn't against the actual program. No one called for it to cease."

Your opening paragraph is proof why it is so difficult carrying on a sensible debate with someone of a liberal persuasion. You begin with an erroneous assumption and go downhill from there.

The NSA program was not done domestically. Never was. Never will be. When both ends of the communication are within the United States, it is domestic. When one end of the communication is outside the United States, as is/was with every NSA intercept, it is international communications.

Do you understand these simple facts? Both ends in the US = domestic. One or both ends in a foreign country = international. In five separate Federal court rulings (and one by the FISA COurt of Review), it has been held that warrantless intercepts of international communications to gather foreign intelligence are within the President's Constitutional authority. That means that it is legal for the President to authorize the NSA to intercept international communications. Why should there be any outrage (except for the usual outrage by the MSM and the liberals for the Bush Administration doing anything to protect our nation) about a legal program that has been effective in detecting and preventing terrorist attacks? My guess is that the MSM and the liberals don't want the Bush Administration to be successful in defending our country.

You also make the assumption that the Bush Administration is completely sidestepping the FISA Courts. From Jan 02 to Dec 05, the Bush Administration has gotten 6782 FISA warrants. That's an average of nearly 5 a day, 365 days a year. I would hardly characterize that as ignoring FISA.

So get this through your thick liberal skull, the NSA intercepts were NOT domestic, they were intercepts of international communications. Federal Courts have ruled the intercepts to have Constitutional authority when gathering foreign intelligence. The Bush Administration IS using the FISA Courts, in addition to the Constitutionally authorized warrantless intercepts.

If an enemy tank division was working its way up Florida, would we need warrants to interecept their radio communications? According to extrastupid we would.

extra-average shows us ever so clearly just how and why the Left are so bumfuddled all the time.

TWO surveillance systems, extra.

One was about electronic intercepts of international communications originating abroad but terminating within the U.S. borders. This is what westmich and nukular whine about and define as "illegal". (It's so much easier when you just ignore court rulings and just make up your own definitions for things...it's the only thing that lets folks like mich and nuke to go on.)

The OTHER was simple data mining by examining call records to look for and plot call patterns.

The first actually involved surveillance of what was said. The second was just a look at the records. Very separate. Very different.

NEITHER ONE involved "wiretapping".

When mich and nuke can give us a plan for dealing with disposable phones, and/or can explain just how we should deal with situations like hearing a call go through from a known terrorist and then realizing it has gone through to a number in the United States, we might be able to have a real discussion.

And no, FISA is NOT the answer. When that call goes through, there is a very small window of opportunity to find out what it is about. It MUST be monitored, at that time. Going after a warrant through FISA for that number is usually just a waste of time, given the awareness of the enemy of our tactics and abilities----they just have to toss the phone and go to the next TrackFone on their list.

But mich and nuke don't care about any of this, any more than they care if their prattling about things being "illegal" is accurate. They just love to whine and whimper and sneer, being emotionally governed and hate-based and oblivious to fact or fairness.

Hey westmich---how are those Eagles doing these days? Get back home much?

Almiranta,

If you're asking about Western Michigan University, they're the Broncos. Eastern Michigan are the Eagles.

Its funny that some with the screenname of westmich could be so liberal, the West side of Michgian is about as conservative as it gets. He/she must be the only liberal on that side of the state.