If it appears that any of our troops have done wrong, try them in courts martial, not the media.

(Actually, I wanted to see how well my new Typekey account works.)

The Abu Ghraib and Haditha episodes have aroused my historical curiosity. I wonder, when was the last time an enemy in any war or conflict with the U.S. punished its own combatants for mistreating Americans? In other words, when the shoe was on the other foot, how did our enemies deal with it?

Do you really want to open this bag of worms? If every politician that has lied or slandered were sued for defamation of charactor, well that's all that would ever get done.

Yes let's take the horrible actions of these marines to courts martial. If Sgt Wuterich is found not guilty then and only then can he sue for defamation.

Any chance you'll change that Commit John Bolton ad any time soon?

It looks like exhibit A in Murtha and the congressmens' defense can be the report on the Naval investigation into the killings.

In other words, when the shoe was on the other foot, how did our enemies deal with it?

There have been trials of foreign soldiers and leaders for mistreatment of American POWs, but none by the country that did the mistreatment. In most wars, the ones who end up conducting the trials are the winners. The US still investigates and punishes American soldiers who mistreat POWs, but no other country has returned the favor for the many American POWs. Some, like Viet Nam, escape any accountability. Ask Senator John McCain how they treated him. Here's what President Bush said about the POWs from WWII at a ceremony honoring them:

"The men and women who suffered through the atrocious conditions of internment deserve our utmost gratitude and respect. Their fortitude serves as an example of placing the ideals of freedom and self-government above one's own interests. Many thousands gave their lives as the ultimate sacrifice, both on the battlefield and in the deadly prison camps of the Pacific and Europe." -- U.S. President George W. Bush, 2001

Thanks, Reverend. Yes, it's the winners who usually get to conduct trials, and most of the time, that's been us. Still, I was hoping that SOMEONE, somewhere in history might have actually held their combatants responsible for their actions like we at times have. Maybe the British in the War of 1812?

Believe me, I don't doubt for a microsecond that the NV treated McCain (and others) horribly. After taking over the South, the communists were even more cruel to their fellow Vietnamese, killing about 800,000 of them.

Ash, One of Congressman Murtha’s claim to legitimacy is his long and dedicated Marine service. While this is true and something to honor him for - it must be realized that many CURRENT Marines consider him a turncoat. I believe he is actually hated.

Not exactly the same thing, but do you remember when John Kerry tried to sit with the group of Marines eating at a Wendy's (I believe) during his campaign. They said NO THANK YOU.

There have been many claims like the ones against the Marines in Iraq. Heard of any convictions? It was a war zone and still in turmoil. The enemy does NOT wear uniforms and they hide behind innocent men, women, and children. Also, sometimes the women and children are active (non-uniformed) combatants.

I don't know how old you are. But the PFC's and Lance Corporals over there now were on you local High School Lacrosse and football teams last year. Their Sergeants have been in for three or four years. It was clear that Murtha was talking about ALLEGATIONS as if they were FACT and burning the Marines (the individual Marines in question) to make a political point.

I don't know about anybody else. But I know that being a Marine is all about friendship and LOYALTY. Marines do not charge machine guns for God and glory. They do it to save their friends. We are family. Black, brown, yellow, white, all Marines are green. And he sold us out. He sold out those young brave men out as sure as Sunday. Did you see the incident where Pennsylvania National Guard soldiers called him out for being full of crap in that anti-war town meeting?

Even if these guys are found guilty. He did not give them the benefit of the doubt and he publicly called them war criminals to the press. He has lost all credibility with Marines and soldiers. AS HAS MUCH OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

You might as well face it. We are in a protracted conflict with no hope of resolution soon. No more democratic milestones to work towards, Iraqis are now killing Iraqis at least as much as foreign fighters are, if not in greater numbers, and "crackdowns" by the Government and coalition forces are met by more violence.
What, precisley, is the soldiers mission there? What are they doing in areas where friend cannot be distinguished from foe? Where soldiers are not searching for foriegn fighters, but trying to keep the seething hatred neighbors feel for each other from boiling over.
Why are they trying to preserve a government(Let's face up to it, run by the Shia majority.) that wishes to build stronger ties with Iran? How can our soldiers stop the arming of militant groups by the Iranians there and elsewhere when each and every American gives money to those terrorists they support in Iraq and Isreal every time they fill up their gas tanks?
Our commander in chief refuses to condemn such acticivity, much less bring it to a halt by calling for a 100 tariff on Iranian oil while allowing a 100 percent tariff on Brazilian ethanol(8 times more potent than the corn based ethanol) to pay off the corporate farms who've reaped such a handsome dividend from their donations to Bush and his supporters.
How can we critisize the Chinese or any other country that does buisiness with Iran? How can a person call himself a respecter of life when he denies funding for stem cell research while allowing his countrymen to actively fund the arming of thugs and murderers?
If our leadership is this confused at home, is it any wonder that some of our our soldiers, over there feel isolated, and confused over there, not knowing who the enemy is?
Mr. Margolis, do you honestly believe that a mere anti defamation lawsuit is going to make this all go away?

Good post Kahn, and you took the words about Kerry right out of my own mouth-These two, are despicable in the behavior they have demonstrated towards our men/women in uniform. Kerry should have been tried on treason-with his lies and b.s. before Congress. Now, our soldiers are "found guilty" by Murtha, even before all the information is brought forward-this old geezer Murtha, is also quite disgusting-

Ash,

You're just as bad as Murtha on this - the "horrible actions" of the Marines? How do you know they did anything wrong? You don't - you can't know; it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to know.

Why don't you give the Marines the benefit of the doubt? Do you hate them that much?

Great post Kahn, I have very little to say these days! I am too disgusted with the likes of Ash. Those who are willing and able to give the benefit of the doubt to the enemy before they give it to the men/women of whom are out there bleeding red for us. You vile, disgusting excuses of human beings. You say you stand for the poor & helpless yet you can't let an honest condemnation of the enemy come from your mouths, your so caught up with being PC that your willing to crucify your own to satisfy your sadistic hunches. I'm so sick & tired of you liberal freaks of nature running off at the mouth without any proof, convictions, evidence, etc. It's a good thing we are Americans, Castro would shut your mouths permanently if he didn't like what your saying!

As for Staff S. Wuterich, Ooh-Rah brother! I hope your just the tip of the iceberg! It's time to put these terrorist apologist in there places!!!

By the Ash, We won't allow you to ruin our country with your poison. This country will always be protected by "The free & the BRAVE" not "The free & the depraved"!

God Bless America!!!

It's simple really; 'innocent until proven guilty'. Murtha took that simple right away from our marines and should be held accountable for it.

By the Ash, We won't allow you to ruin our country

Yeah you guys are doing such a great job!

But I know that being a Marine is all about friendship and LOYALTY

Sorry to use the old trite comparison, but it's true here: Adolph Hitler depended on this kind of blind loyalty.

OPh and bearman, I forgot to add:

God Bless THE WORLD!!!

Comparing the Marine Corps to the nazi's????

Good - make that your campaign slogan and see how well that works out. Be sure also to identify yourself as a Marine hating asshole when they come to pull you out of some foreign hellhole some rainy night.

No, Kahn, I'm comparing blind loyalty to Nazis.

Okay I retract the guilty verdict pending the trial. NCIS
seems to think there is enough evidence to take it to trial.

Just curious Mark. You mention giving them the benefit of the doubt. Which option below would exonerate them?

a) There really aren't dead bodies of 24 unarmed women and children.

b) They had it coming because the children would have grown up to become Hezbollah, Hamas or Alquida terrorists.

c) All's fair in love and war.

d) It was really a liberal who did the killing to set up the soldiers.

All hyperbole aside, I want a trial. I want the truth to come out, one way or another. Do you want a trial, based on NCIS findings?

Ash, Thanks for demonstrating why the military does not like or trust liberals. “Blind Loyalty.” You pip. I'm talking about the loyalty Marines have for each other. Do not presume to think you understand the honor and loyalty of the Marine Corps. The movies you've watched really don't tell the story.

Here we have low ranking enlisted Marines. All still in Iraq when this broke. No lawyers. Put on restriction. There are reports of accused soldiers and marines immediately being put into solitary confinement. Did you know that in the brig you can be put on bread and water? I thought not.

In this politically charged atmosphere, the Marines are questioned over and over by (idiot) NCIS people and returned to solitary confinement when done - all without lawyers. The military does the autopsies. Gathers "evidence" – possibly days, weeks, or months later. Maybe they let the Marines know. The Marines get to gather NO evidence and when they finally do get shipped stateside and get lawyers they are not allowed to do autopsies or visit the scene of the alleged crime.

Frankly, these investigations are usually so poorly run and the rights of soldiers and Marines are so completely trampled upon that a real AMERICAN court throws out the charges or finds the defendants not guilty.

But, hey thanks for jumping to conclusions. You exactly make my point. Again, run on the Marines are like Nazi's platform. Admit it, it's how you feel. Oh – and don’t be surprised if Marines develop a healthy hatred of you and people like Murtha.

Ash, Thanks for demonstrating why the military does not like or trust liberals. “Blind Loyalty.” You pip. I'm talking about the loyalty Marines have for each other. Do not presume to think you understand the honor and loyalty of the Marine Corps. The movies you've watched really don't tell the story.

Here we have low ranking enlisted Marines. All still in Iraq when this broke. No lawyers. Put on restriction. There are reports of accused soldiers and marines immediately being put into solitary confinement. Did you know that in the brig you can be put on bread and water? I thought not.

In this politically charged atmosphere, the Marines are questioned over and over by (idiot) NCIS people and returned to solitary confinement when done - all without lawyers. The military does the autopsies. Gathers "evidence" – possibly days, weeks, or months later. Maybe they let the Marines know. The Marines get to gather NO evidence and when they finally do get shipped stateside and get lawyers they are not allowed to do autopsies or visit the scene of the alleged crime.

Frankly, these investigations are usually so poorly run and the rights of soldiers and Marines are so completely trampled upon that a real AMERICAN court throws out the charges or finds the defendants not guilty.

But, hey thanks for jumping to conclusions. You exactly make my point. Again, run on the Marines are like Nazi's platform. Admit it, it's how you feel. Oh – and don’t be surprised if Marines develop a healthy hatred of you and people like Murtha.

Oh yeah,
That's the guy who is likely going down as this generation's William "Rusty" Calley. Leave it to the Bush bloggers to pick the greatest American heroes!

Oh – and don’t be surprised if Marines develop a healthy hatred of you and people like Murtha.

The feeling is mutual, if you are any example, Kahn

The movies you've watched really don't tell the story.

Sorry Kahn, bang, bang shoot em ups aren't my cup of tea. But I'll take your word for it.

I'm talking about the loyalty Marines have for each other.

And their superiors, all the way to the top. (AKA Adolph Hitler, or George Bush).

are questioned over and over by (idiot) NCIS people

Well so much for your unbiased outlook. (idiot NCIS)

But thanks for playing the home version of "Who's the Good Guy When Innocent Children Are Slaughtered?

You know all that semper fi and loyalty stuff has the ring of homosexuality to it. Are you gay, Kahn?

Not that there's anything wrong with it.....(Jerry Seinfeld)

Ash - Thank you so much. I goaded your true feelings about our kids in uniform out of you. No more hiding behind lies. I'll note your not just talking about the accused anymore.

Obviously the bang bang movies are exactly what I'm NOT talking about. A good one is Audy Murphy's story "To Hell and back". If you pay attention, it's a chronology of how all his best friends died. My uncle is portrayed in "Band of Brothers", another good one. He was a rock solid Democrat till the day he died. I wonder if your idiot hatred could have helped me sway him over to the GOP? Maybe.

Let me summarize your hate filled feelings: Marines are gay Nazi's baby-killers with blind loyalty to each other and George Bush." Does that about sum it up?

Geeezzzz, are you REALLY Howard Dean? How the hell do you people evere expect the American people allow you to lead? You really make it too easy. Thanks again. Thanks for harboring crazy and hateful prejudices about the brave young men and women who chose to put themselves in danger to serve this nation. And thanks for openly expressing these views here in public.

Ash - Thank you so much. I goaded your true feelings about our kids in uniform out of you. No more hiding behind lies. I'll note your not just talking about the accused anymore.

Obviously the bang bang movies are exactly what I'm NOT talking about. A good one is Audy Murphy's story "To Hell and back". If you pay attention, it's a chronology of how all his best friends died. My uncle is portrayed in "Band of Brothers", another good one. He was a rock solid Democrat till the day he died. I wonder if your idiot hatred could have helped me sway him over to the GOP? Maybe.

Let me summarize your hate filled feelings: Marines are gay Nazi's baby-killers with blind loyalty to each other and George Bush." Does that about sum it up?

Geeezzzz, are you REALLY Howard Dean? How the hell do you people evere expect the American people allow you to lead? You really make it too easy. Thanks again. Thanks for harboring crazy and hateful prejudices about the brave young men and women who chose to put themselves in danger to serve this nation. And thanks for openly expressing these views here in public.

Oh and Ash - good. Make insults about me being gay. Hey, wait a minute.... Isn't that against your belief pattern? Isn't it wrong to denigrate gays? Oh, you have no real principles (I forgot) Only hate. Didn't we recently point out that is democrats that always point out gay Republicans or use it as an insult? Thanks for proving another point.

Cheap insults are the refuge of the weak minded. It is too late for you Ash. You comited a sin for liberal bloggers. You let me goad your true hateful and stupidly prejudicial views on the military out of you IN PUBLIC. I note the next several posts from you are crazy insults as you try to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube.

I was going to insult you back, But you're just too pathetic to waste my time on.

In ten years, when all the military is Republican and all the verterans are Republican it will be a very interesting political landscape. You liberals have made a HUGE mistake by refusing to serve. You will not have ANY real world experience. TV shows written by crazy liberals are not real, and that's all you'll have.

Meanwhile. God Bless the Marines. And God Bless the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. And the Democrat hate merchants can go to hell.

Oh - and I have actually seen the NCIS in action..... have you?

You lobbies are willing to give murderous terrorists in Gitmo more rights than Americans in Uniform. This will not stand. You will not get power back this way. Ever.

[banned until further notice --moderator]

GTH Ash. You spilled your true feelings didn't you? Thanks again - we knew thats how your party felt - but now it's confirmed.

Don't hide behind lies liberals. Be proud of who you are! If you hate our military, say so. If you want to take our guns, say so. If you think it's OK to kill almost born babies, say so. Tell us what you beleive. Tell us who you are!

By the Ash, We won't allow you to ruin our country

Yeah you guys are doing such a great job!

Well, you are still running around free as can be mouthing off about matters you know little. Seems to me your freedom is as intact as ever.

While many of your conservatives here will not believe this, but as a Vietnam Vet and former officer in the USAF, the new today of charges filed (see below)saddens me. But the final blame lies not with the 'grunts' but rather with the leadership that has engendered the situation that allows such actions as this and all the others to happen. As Truman said "the buck stops here" and it it as ture when he accepted that as it is now even if the leadership does not accept their responsibility.

Assault charges were filed against six Marines on Thursday as the result of an incident that occurred in April in the Iraqi village of Hamdania and was uncovered during an unrelated investigation into the slaying of an Iraqi civilian later that month, military officials said.

Three of the Marines charged Thursday are currently in the brig at Camp Pendleton on murder and kidnapping charges in connection with the April 26 slaying of 52-year-old Hashim Ibrahim Awad in Hamdania. The other three had not been charged in that case.

Meanwhile, a seventh Marine, an officer, is expected to be charged next with in the assault, according to Lt. Col. Colby Vokey, the Marine Corps' defense coordinator for the Western United States.

OG - thanks. And that is a reasonable way to state your view. Murthas, and some of the liberal posters here chose the wrong way.

I have read that these kids, when arrested have been left in solitary confinement for months and the only people they see are guards and interrogators.

OG. Good post. Just the facts. Charges, unproven at this time.

Often, these charges turn out to be baseless. Or the military is so heavy handed and clumsy with the investigation, that when the soldiers or Marines DO finally get lawyers - they tear the cases to shreds. It will remain to be seen if there are any convictions. I don't think any of these Marines took pictures of themselves like the idiots guarding AbuGrab.

The point here was, I believe that Mutha publically denounced thes young Marines FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES and any mileage he had with us (Marines past, present, and future) is now GONE.

What do you think of the Marines and Corpmen being locked in solitary confinemet all that time just for being charged?