What I think is that if this is indicative of what people think when they're riled up, then that's actually not as upsetting as one might have thought. They're still not talking about wiping out Jews, they're denying wanting to destroy Israel, etc. This is two Muslims from that part of the world talking to each other. And the main affront seems to be one about honor.

If this were a generation ago it would have been talking about full blown invasion, driving the Jews into the sea, etc.

Now once we have the inevitable cease fire, and tempers have cooled, then what? My suspicion is that Hezbollah is not going to be seen as quite the heroes as much.

The thing is people are feeling free to talk, and even when they don't think anyone is listening they aren't talking about wanting genocide. Quite the opposite.

Tempers flare while shots are being fired. Remember that.

You seem to have a disconnect between pride and honor when muslims knock down christian buildings, and when christians and jews knock down muslim buildings.

We felt an indignant rage when 9/11 happened, it caused us to rally troops, fights wars, and ignore prudent facts; yet at the same time, you complain about the ignorance of this person, "Aslam" for pointing out that muslims will fight, including for their honor and pride.

What sort open sore on a collective people's pride would 40 years of impotence in the face of a stronger occupier cause you?

When you have lost all hope that your lands will be returned and your people respected in the homes of their fore-fathers, then what do you have left but pride, anger, and an indignant spirit?

Wasn't it an emotional wave of indignant-pride at Valley Forge, Battle of the Bulge, Guadalcanal...against a larger, more powerful force, having nothing but the idea that if 'God is on our side, then who the hell could be on theirs'? An indignant pride and sense, that in a world which seems to spit on you, that you are fighting back, tooth and nail, for what you believe is the right thing to do in the face of injustice?

Respect is a powerful feeling, and it takes a man who is more than the sum of his weapons to embrace that, perhaps it is time that we take a sobering look in the mirror as a nation, and not cheer the next civilian death as progress, but ask what exactly our role in a lasting world peace is.

War is War
Peace is Peace

Israel will not gain peace by blowing up Lebanese. On the Corner this morning.

“But it’s painfully obvious that Israel’s attempt to influence Lebanese politics in its favor is an absolute catastrophe right now. The (second in a decade) attack on Qana that killed scores of civilians has all but cemented the Lebanese public and Hezbollah together. Cable news reports that 82 percent of Lebanese now support Hezbollah. Prime Minister Fouad Seniora – whatever his real opinion in private – is now closer to openly supporting Hezbollah in public than he has ever been. The March 14 Movement (the Cedar Revolution) is, at best, in a coma if not outright dead.”

Last night, I was listening to talk radio and Thomas Friedman was talking about the whole middle east crisis and a recent trip that he had been on.

He said, while talking to the locals in Palestine and Lebanon, that civilians in those areas feel a sense of pride whenever a muslim group inflicts casualties on Israelis.

If this is true, then not only does it varify what I have said in other posts, it poses serious problems to any of our peace efforts in the region.

Look what our pal the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani is saying about the Mideast war:

``If an immediate cease-fire in this Israeli aggression is not imposed, dire consequences will befall the region.''

Just what we need, and with the US army in the middle. How will that play in midterm elections?

The Muslims are a very powerful force that has to be reckoned with. This is especially so, since they have Russia and China firmly behind thme and they are able to use their oil wepaon quite skillfully. Once they give up their insane desire for world domination, peace will become possible. Right now their theme is "we want to blow you up and/or subjigate you." Our theme is "we don't want to be blown up and/or subjigated." As long as this continues, their is no starting point from which to negotiate. While Western actions and American actions are often times less than perfect, we possess the ability for self examination. They currently do not. I'm not sure how much longer we must be humiliated at the hands of the Moslems before we fight back with more vigor than we currently have.

We must be willing to see this through to the conclusion. If we don't this enemy will only grow stronger and the war will be fought in the future when they are stronger. Until their leaders give up the desire for world domination, peace will not be possible. We should have learned from WWII that appeasement does not work.

I would suggest that the US and the West make it a top goal to achieve energy independence and to substantially increase the size and strength of its military. This would at least give us some leverage at the negotiating table.

The chief terrorist supporting states are Iran and Syria. The major supporting states of Iran and Syria are Russia and China. If we could direct diplomatic efforts at Russia and China to get them to stop supporting Iran and Syria the terrorists become much easier to defeat.

A certain historic general once said, to rougholy paraphrase, "if you know your enemy and you know yourself, you will be victorious every time." If you know yourself but not the enemy you will suffer one defeat for every victory." "If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle." So far we have been unable to have a frank discussion about the true nature of this enemy.

They don't have the power to resist us - heck, they don't even have the social make up which would allow them to obtain the power to resist us. All the Aslam's of the Moslem world can do is ensure a very large number of dead Moslems.

So it makes me wonder, why are our troops dying every day there? Why have we completely changed our way of life because of them (terrorists)? If the best missle the Hezbollahs can muster has a range of 15 miles, why the fear?

signed,

Curious in Colorado

The last 3 weeks in Lebanon has shown us all that the Wahabbists and the Zionists are anti-semites. And that a small group of Shi'ite zealots are being manipulated by everybody. Peace

Curious in Colorado

I don't think we have changed our lives very much. We are facing a survival threat to our civilization. Frankly, it amazes me that so many people are oblivious to this.

It is known that many terrorist groups, such as Hezbollah have global reach. The major concern of many in the government is that these groups could inflict enormous damage on American cities. My major concern is the support that these people are receiving from Russia and China.

What I think Mark is referring to when he says they don't have the power to resist us is, if we were fully mobilizied, it is unlikely they would be able to stop us. The problem is we are not. Most Americans are blissfully ignorant of the threat we face. If the Moslems actually did succeed in a mass WMD attack on American soil, the likely result would be alot dead Moslems when we respond. What the Moslems and us don't seem to realize is we are only playing Russia's game. They use the terrorists to destract us while they grow ever stronger.

Ash,

The protestants in Northern Ireland didn't have the make-up or power either, but they held out until they did...so did the North Vietnamese ... Malaysians ... Mujahadeens ... US Patriots ...

This is the nature of Insurgent warfare, once you have a larger power engulfed in these tactics, you have limited their choices, you can either engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide, or you can fight a small unit war that almost invariably leads to the loss of hearts and minds of the population you're fighting within, and the backlash of losing local support, such as we are seeing within many places within Iraq.

Dean

I hope you are right about that. It seems one way or the other either by the US or the EU Israel will be forced into a ceasefire before they have been able to completely degrade Hezbollah's military capability.

This is why warfare is doomed to failure. You can never defeat the minds of a people with attitudes and justifications based on "pride" and "honor."

And as far as those not "having the power to defeat us," I would be wary of such misplaced confidence.

History is replete with examples of the powerless toppling the seemingly undefeatable. Why I think this country was founded on a small pack of "rebels" defeating the then invincible British.

Islam will never be crushed by voilent force. Any attempt to do so would probably start World War III and usher in the long-awaited Armageddon. The attempt was made in the 11th and 13th centuries with disasterous results for all concerned.

Mark (there never was a Christian Theocracy) Noonan:

Don't advocate repeating failures of the past.

Wade

The middle east is still suffering from the injustices done to the palistians by the west and until the palistians get justice the rest of the stuff is there for all time as it has been for ever only the return of some land and a decent settlement will suffice in the uk today israel is losing all its goodwill they are on the brink of churning up all the old hatreds, ordinary people here are now saying the sorts of things that ignite the kind of hatred that leads to the purges of the past why is half the world under the threat of the bombers because of the injustices visited on the palistinians , get rid of one group of fundamentalists and another will rise , everyone said it was yasser who kept it alive its worse now he has gone, the palistian problem is a weeping sore and it must be treated

Ash,

We're suffering our causalties - and Israel is suffering her's - because we're being gentle. Do you recall how the Russians subdued the insurgency in Grozny? They stood back from the city and used artillery and aerial bombing to blow it to pieces. We didn't have to take Fallujah - we could have levelled it. We don't have to work to win hearts and minds in Anbar, we could be killing eveyone who looks cross eyed at us...these things work; people do bow to overwhelming force. The reason our occupation of Germany post-WWII went off without much a hitch is because up to the occupation we had demonstrated to the Germans that we considered them somewhat less than human...we killed them without compunction and, indeed, without even much thought about it. When you are dealing with people who will just kill you if you step out of line and where you simply don't have the power to resist, then you don't resist.

But we don't want to do that - we're trying to help, not destroy. My worry about Aslam is that he may be an indicator that we'll have to destroy in order to have peace. If it comes to that, then they simply don't have the power to resist us - we will simply do whatever we please, more hindered by rugged terrain than anything the Moslems can actually put up to withstand us.

While "warfare is doomed to failure" according to Wade and other appeasers, the alternative is merely a faster track to annihilation. Every population that chose 'peace' and meekly acceded to whichever force was threatening it was destroyed, or nearly so---look at the Jews' acceptance of the Nazi threat. They thought if they just didn't "stir things up" or "make things worse" they would survive. One thing about Jews---they do learn from history.

On the other hand, history is also full of instances of standing up to attempted conquest, and succeeding. I notice that Wade is not speaking German today.

What Westerners have such a hard time understanding is that when we are dealing with Islam we are dealing with an alien force, as much as if they come from a Star Trek movie. We keep trying to project our own values on them, and we keep expecting them to follow our own rules.

Only in Islam is there "honor" in hiding behind the skirts of women and the cradles of children. Only in Islam is there "honor" in lying, hiding, sneaking, ambushing innocents, skulking, hiding behind masks and striving for destruction merely for the sake of destruction. What makes a Muslim man proud is the same thing that fills a Western man with shame, or at least generates shame and disgust in others. We see five or six man hiding behind masks, pointing automatic weapons at one bound and blindfolded woman, and we think of them as shameful cowards. We just can't fathom anyone seeing that same image and being proud of people like that, and wanting to emulate them.

We just don't get it. We don't get it that to many of the secular Islamists, those for whom Islam is much more of a political movement than a true religion, death is preferred to life. We don't know how to deal with that kind of mindset.

We tend to think of war as something people start to GAIN something. The idea of wars started merely to DESTROY something is simply alien to us. But we can't keep trying to graft Western values onto Arabic mentalities. And as long as we do keep making that futile effort, we will lose.

B. Poster quoted: "If you know yourself but not the enemy you will suffer one defeat for every victory." Our military and leaders know themelves and are learning about the enemy, but until the country either shuts up and gets out of their way or learns what they already know, we are doomed to suffer AT LEAST "one defeat for every victory".

The biggest internal problem this country faces is the intransigence of the radical Left, which postures as anti-war "peace"-loving preferrers of diplomacy but is in truth so totally agenda-driven that they have made the calculation that the cost, to this country and to the world, of gaining power by undermining the current government is acceptable. Maybe some of them think they will be spared, as so many of those at Auschwitz thought, but most of them have not even thought that far ahead. They simply look at whether this administration is FOR something and then they are against it. This is why even with a military and administration which know the enemy we will be hamstrung by those who will stop at nothing to hinder every single effort they make, blind to the fact that it is their own lives they are putting in danger.

Wade and Ash and Barney and the Big Brown Eye try so hard to sound smart and thoughtful and rational, but their posts show them to be either in total denial of what faces us or too blinded by their emotional hangups to recognize the threat. Simpering about "peace" and proclaiming that "war is not the answer" is just hippy pap, appropriate for the very young and naive but not realistic or even reasonable. steve can drift along with his daisies to put into the barrels of guns and Wade can carry signs in marches, but the fact is, they will be protected from harm by people who are not afraid to meet the hard cold facts of life head on---and armed.

First the clueless one says:

History is replete with examples of the powerless toppling the seemingly undefeatable (sic).

Followed immediately by:

Islam will never be crushed by voilent (sic) force.

Circular logic? No, silliness.

But we don't want to do that - we're trying to help, not destroy.

I dare say there are nearly 50,000 dead in Iraq and hundreds in Lebanon who might take exception to that self righteous statement Mark. If you or a loved one are killed, it is hard to believe that they are being helped.

Simpering about "peace" and proclaiming that "war is not the answer" is just hippy pap, appropriate for the very young and naive but not realistic or even reasonable.

Well I guess you told us almiRANTa! And with your authoritarian, "daddy" world view, I suspect you truly believe this vitriol. Yes in your world there is only good and evil. There is only one answer. And your "daddy" knows best. Be it George W., George Patton, or Jesus.

Let me ask you this Alm, the Republican Party controls: 1) the executive branch 2) the legislative branch 3)the judicial branch 4) the military. (And I would argue the media, but let's leave that out here).

Now how can a few "burned out hippies" and far left nut cases stand in your way? Hmmm. This is the question. And the answer is they can't. I don't know about TEO and the others, but the President hasn't called me to ask what to do.

It is one of the charactor flaws of the authoritarian/conservative personality that they can't accept responsibility for their own failures. And if we are failing it isn't because of me, Alms, it is because of those in the vast majority of power.

We're suffering our causalties - and Israel is suffering her's - because we're being gentle.

Here's another perfect example of being unable to take responsibility for failure. Well if the namby pamby simpering flower power tree hugging burned out twinkle toed hippy far left would let us, we'd end this think with the big one. You know the one to make Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a tea party for third grade girls and pansy boys.

Then the evil ones would bow down and cow tow to those that are good and righteous.

(But they won't let us handle this like men. So it's not my fault)

iAnd if we are failing it isn't because of me, Alms, it is because of those in the vast majority of power.

However, I accept that:

I am failing because I can't convince enough of the 'blow em ups' that we can't win the way we are proceeding.

And if we are failing it isn't because of me, Alms, it is because of those in the vast majority of power.

However, I accept that:

I am failing because I can't convince enough of the 'blow em ups' that we can't win the way we are proceeding.

Reverend:

That's exactly my point. The "greater" power is not defeated through brute force and use of arms.

Only when you appeal to the hearts and minds of the people do you get a successful revolution.

Islam will never succumb to military force. Extremism of any stripe only grows deeper roots under the thumb of an oppressive, authoritarian power.

By the way, you could dispense with the personal insults. It only announces immaturity.

Wade

ASH:

The Republicans have honed the fine art of avoiding "responsibility for their own failures" while casting blame on everyone else.

Iraq is a quagmire not because of incomptent planning and ignorance. It's the media's fault.

Social services are sufferring not because corporations and the wealthy do not pay their fair share of taxes. It's because of "immigrants."

Terrorism is increasing worldwide not because of Bush's failures. It's liberals' fault.

Creationism is excluded in school as "science" not because it is total bunk. It's because of "activist" judges.

And when all else fails for Republicans and Mr. Bush, they blame President Clinton.

Wade

Well if the namby pamby simpering flower power tree hugging burned out twinkle toed hippy far left would let us, we'd end this think with the big one.

Ash, you credit yourself and those who share your views with waaaaaaaaay to much influence. At some point the gloves will come off, but, sad to say, it's probably going to take the loss of a major Western city before it happens. So far all we've done since the late 70's is keep hitting the snooze alarm.

Don't worry, though, when the time comes, there are plenty of men and women who value freedom enough to lay their lives on the line to protect your sorry A$$.

I'm betting, when it comes right down to it, that preservation of liberty will prove to be a more highly motivating factor than the yearning for 72 virgins.

Ash,

So much victimhood around here.

Scared little children who have no answer for the loss of control they feel recently, so they feel powerful and just in pooh-poohing the death of innocent civilians and the destruction of their houses, business', and families because we all know that its for their own good. These backwards sand-dwellers (I think the term is "Jawa"?) aren't cultured enough in the ways of western morals to know what is in their best interest, so just flee, with your rag-heads kids in tow, while we take care of their problems, and make life safe for good, judeo-christian God fearin' Americans.

I wish they had the perspective to realize that every day that passes is another day too long for our boys and girls to be playing in the giant sand-box, but to accept that our plans were flawed, that our assumptions about the socio-economic/religious minutia of the ME could have been naive, and change course, is tantamount to failure in these people's eyes; And we can't have failure, because then we can't project the arrogance of always being right a.k.a being American, then we are beaten...no more jokes about saving someone's butt in WWII when we have to endure caveats from smug euro-weenies about Iraq, that is much too much to bear for the fragile ego's of the morally vacant in Washington, and their cadre of salivating lead-heads, complete with their over-stimulated red-headed stepchild mindsets.

"Beat me more, Daddy, I know it's for my own good!"

Ash

The Republicans do not control the judiciary and they do not control the media, furthermore, the Democrats can filibuster whatever laws they don't like. We have a virtually even split among power in this country. Also, people need to be reminded that it is the terrorists who are doing most of the killing not the Americans or their allies.

TEO

You are right to a point. The "insurgents" at least those that are made up of former regime elements, Al Qaeda, and their Marxists allies who supply them are a survival threat to the USA. We did not use enough troops at the start, as such, even though the primary responsibility for the death of civilians belongs on the side of the enemy we do have some responsibility for failing to commit the proper troop levels. We can still correct this. I have been hoping that the opposition to the president would step up and workd to correct this oversight but they have not. Because of this we are left only with the current option that may or may not work or one that is guaranteed to fail.

Ash

I would place the responisbility for my dead loved one where it belongs, at the feet of the terrorists. That is assuming I had a free press to explain the facts of the situation to me.

The current strategy being employed may be a misguided one but it is borne out of a sincere desire to defend Americans from an existential threat that cannot be appeased. What most Americans don't seem to realize is that the enemy behind the terrorists is Russia. High oil prices that are the result of the invasion primarily benefit Russia. I would like to see more diplomatic effort directed at Russia to get them to stop their support for the terrorist supporting states.

For what its worth, you are not going to defeat something like Hezbollah without a massive ground invasion. If anyone did not know this, they should have learned from America's experience in Iraq. Even if you get the conditions for a cease fire, this will only be temporary, as the international force will not stay there forever. Then you are back where you started before with an even stronger Hezbollah. Unfortunately the Western world largely lacks the will to defend itself. This will go on until the Islamic Extremists give up their desire for world domination or they are completely defeated.

Posted by: Almiranta at July 31, 2006 01:08 PM

Damn, that was good!

How Indonesian Muslims view Islam and non-Muslims-

via LGF- "A survey of Indonesian Muslims by the Center for Islamic and Social Studies shows that more than 40% are ready to wage war against non-Muslims:" "Survey reveals Muslim views on violence"

The Jakarta Post.com: The survey, conducted from 2001 to March 2006, found 43.5 percent of respondents were ready to wage war on threatening non-Muslim groups, 40 percent would use violence against those blaspheming Islam and 14.7 percent would tear down churches without official permits.

“This condition has helped terrorists easily recruit new comrades and makes the country a fertile ground for sectarian radicalism,” Jajat said.

He added that a simultaneous study on the reasons for the results found Islamic teaching and Islamism made the most significant contributions to violent behavior, both in the domestic and public spheres.

“The more Muslims give their support for certain Islamic teachings legitimizing the use of violence, the more violence will happen.”

He noted that between 30 percent and 58 percent approved of amputation of the left hand for thieves and the stoning to death of rapists, as well as other tenets of sharia law, and opposed the election of non-Muslims for president.

Something struck me when Ash asked who I would blame if a loved one was killed during all of this. What are the people who live in these apartment complexes doing when Hezbollah moves the missles in? I mean I don't know about you but if a bunch of armed guys come in with really big and obvious targets wouldn't you leave the area? What's keeping these innocents there?

I can only think of three reasons.
1. These innocents are cooperating with Hezbollah and activly helping them by being shields.
2. They are being forced to stay there by the Hezbollah guys as shields.
3. They really don't think they'll ever be hit.

I don't really like any of these ideas so if anyone can help me out here please do! I mean who would activly allow or hang around things like this? Heck I can go stay somewhere else rather than stay around a potential target, couldn't you?

Frawg says....

"He said, while talking to the locals in Palestine and Lebanon, that civilians in those areas feel a sense of pride whenever a muslim group inflicts casualties on Israelis."

And this is new? We saw example after example of Muslims doing the Monkey Dance of Joy after 9/11. People using United States educational systems or living on United States handouts were bouncing up and down with goofy grins and pumped fists, celebrating the deaths of 3000 Americans at the hands of a few like-minded murderers. It's not just casualties on ISRAELIS that gets the fanatics all excited---it's the deaths of any 'infidels" anywhere at any time.

Thanks for the kudos, freedom 1. Whatever I said got poor Ash so flat on his ash he could only gibber and blather some typically incoherent babble. I read it a couple of times and couldn't make any sense of it at all. But he seems to think I project some sense of importance or relevance onto the existence of a few aged flower children who still float about dreamily whispering of "peace" and murmuring gentle platitudes about war being a bad thing.

Duhhhhh. Yeah, war is a bad thing. If the neorads could get over their utopian uber-simplistic world view and get a grip, they might catch on that those who are willing to fight do not do so because they lack the intelligence to comprehend the evils of war. If they could just get over their smug sense of superiority they might be able to grasp the fact that brave people do not fight because they WANT to, they do so because they understand that it is their only chance of survival as free people.

But as I have said, I remember clearly from my own hippy Liberal days the exhilerating sense of moral superiority conveyed by merely being AGAINST Bad Things. It was a short cut to the Higher Moral Ground. It involved no thought, no commitment, no investment of time or energy. It was simple: I am AGAINST war, therefore those who fight must be FOR war, therefore I am better than they are. Case closed.

I was there. I lived that lie. And I look back on it with a degree of embarrassment at my sheer arrogance and folly. Fortunately, I was very young---the only possible excuse for such self-righteous short-sightedness.

"Those who are not liberals in their youth have no hearts. Those who are not conservatives in their maturity have no brains."

Note that my entire argument was made without snide semi-sexual references, though I understand Ash's pique with me----I remembered that he bragged about his "womanizing" and then when he mentioned a wife I commented on it. And on his constant homosexual references, all either homophobic or over-defensive. So his fallback on "daddy" comments and ad hominem insults are no surprise. Nor is the total absence of real content or his ignoring of the real points of my post......"Every population that chose 'peace' and meekly acceded to whichever force was threatening it was destroyed, or nearly so....." and "Only in Islam is there "honor" in hiding behind the skirts of women and the cradles of children." And, of course, the need to see the Islamic determination to kill all infidels for what it is, and ot stop trying to cloak it in some anti-conservative rhetoric.

That's exactly my point.

You don't have a point - I mean beside the one on top of your empty head.

Islam will never succumb to military force.

Islam doesn't need to. Islamo-fascists and terrorists are who need to "succumb." Our military is "succumbing" them all the time. I just wish they'd "succumb" more and faster. But I am patient. The supply of those willing to die for their belief is being reduced dramatically by rough men who aren't afraid to do the necessary work. And our superior - make that far superior military can "succumb" them at an alarmingly rapid rate.

Extremism of any stripe only grows deeper roots under the thumb of an oppressive, authoritarian power.

Oooh. Is that something your teacher said? Did you read it in the Little Red Book? How does one acquire such wisdom? I mean without drugs.

By the way, you could dispense with the personal insults. It only announces immaturity.

Just what I need, advice from a flake. Don't know if you're getting the big picture there yet, Wade, but those aren't insults - they're my opinion of your "thinking." You're either very young and inexperienced, unread, or dumber than a box of Boxers. Or some combination. How can anyone take that nonsense you spew out like so much fetid vomit seriously? And remember, we're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you.

Wade,

Yes the Republicans cannot accept responsibility for any of their man f-ups.

And when all else fails for Republicans and Mr. Bush, they blame President Clinton

And if that fails, they call people names.

Ash,

Only in your twisted imagination could you think that I want us to just blast the middle east into smithereens...From President Bush on down, we of the conservative side have been risking our political future - gladly and with joy in our hearts - in order to take the risks for liberty and justice. We could have taken the easy, leftwing way out and just kicked the problem down the road.

As for the dead - we all have to die sometime, Ash...and better to die in the hope of a better tomorrow than to live as a slave. By your logic, we shouldn't have conquered Japan and set them on the path to democracy because the two million Japanese dead didn't want to die.

Ash, I'm afraid you grow more narrow minded and cold hearted by the day. Please let go of the hatred.

Ah, yes Mark. Thanks for proving my point. You are an authoritarian conservative who is never able to accept blame or accept being wrong.

It is always someone else to blame, not you.

Examine yourself under this analysis and you might find you are the narrow minded one.

gladly and with joy in our hearts - in order to take the risks for liberty and justice. We could have taken the easy, leftwing way out and just kicked the problem down the road.

Thank you, Jesus.

Ah, the old martyr syndrome. Well put Mark.

gladly and with joy in our hearts - in order to take the risks for liberty and justice. We could have taken the easy, leftwing way out and just kicked the problem down the road.

Thank you, Jesus.

Ah, the old martyr syndrome. Well put Mark.

y your logic, we shouldn't have conquered Japan and set them on the path to democracy because the two million Japanese dead didn't want to die.

You do realize how stupid that sounds. We'll set you free by killing you. So that is the logic I use.

Your punishment Mark: 50 Hail Mary's and 100 Yes Daddy May I Have Another's