How about most of Western Europe during the middle ages? You know... that whole "God sent me to be King" thing?

Didn't you insist in a recent post that America was "yours"?

This seems to be a bit of a contradiction...

Or do you mean to say that Christians are my protector?

Please clarify...

What all these books are harping about is not that christianity is bad.
They are claiming that the agenda of the Religious Right has become the policy of the Republican party, verbatim.
They are afraid of a Christian "nanny" government, dictating what people can and cannot do.
The see the change from "small government" conservatives into "big brother" neo-cons, as bad.

Mark:

This is perhaps the most *ignorant* statement I have ever seen:

"There never has been a Christian theocracy, don't you know?"

Gheeez, read some history. Please.

Wade

The change from small government ideas to big brother ideas is deffinetly a bad one. I'll fully agree there. What I disagree with is the constant labeling and "blaming" of religion on everything.

I've been posting here for quite a while now and it's a reoccuring theme to have folks bring up religion as either a defense or an attack. To me that's the biggest issue here is that folks believe it's something that should even be disucssed outside of a religious discussion. If you can't back up your views without bringing in religion, Nazis, or "if you haven't done it then you can't say anything" arguments then I think you've got to examine your view a bit more.

Mark,

I think it's fear of the unknown. I've found over the years that the people who attack Christianity and who think the "Religious Right" is trying to establish an "American theocracy", don't understand Christianity.

Mark,

You have often argued that the "separation between church and state" doesn't exist, or at least, shouldn't exist. Certainly I don't need to dig up quotes to support it, but as an example, you said about mandatory school prayer:

and given that at least 70% of Americans are Christian of some sort, I see no problem with the kiddies starting the day here with a Christian prayer

Or that:

And all we want is the First Amendment strictly enforced...and in that, there is no wall of separation of Church and State...indeed, "separation of Church and State" appears nowhere in the US Constitution.

I find such contradictions with what you said in this post a bit incredulous.

Wade,

Name the Christian theocracy, since you've read so much history.

winnow,

Were we a theocracy back when we had prayer in public school? Were we unfree before the SC started enforcing a mythical "wall of separation" between Church and State? Are you saying my father labored under a Christian theocracy and wasn't free to believe, or not believe, as he saw fit?

You're confusing things - a theocracy is when some religious elite tries to rule the secular world via attempting to figure out what God would have decreed for government. This is something a Christian cannot agree to because people can get it wrong, sometimes deliberately so. Prayer in public school and having religion present in the public square isn't theocracy - its just normal, common-sense society.

Freedom,

I think you're hitting the nail on the head - with my only observation being that Christianity is unknown to them because they simply refuse to learn anything about it. More comforting, it seems to them, to not know about it at all and just rely upon slanders issued by the overtly anti-religious.

This website sucks. Seriously, fix the:

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We apologize for the reoccuring server errors that are currently being experienced at Blogs For Bush. Something has been causing a problem with the server, which we are trying to isolate and resolve.

If you were posting comment, your comment was likely received and you probably do not need to resubmit. In the event of a double-post, we will do our best to delete them when we can.

How many times do I have to post for something to go through?

"There never has been a Christian theocracy, don't you know? There have been some religious groups and movements within Christianity who have tried to have a strong influence on politics, but all Christianity all the time has recognised a very clear distinction between Church and State."

http://otherside.junik.lv/pages/inquisition.html

They are afraid of a Christian "nanny" government, dictating what people can and cannot do.

Exactly. However, they wouldn't mind a secular, liberal, nanny government, dictating what people can and cannot do...with their wallets!!!

This website sucks. Seriously,...

Then don't come here. Stay at your own blog, where you and DAV are the only participants.

How many times do I have to post for something to go through?

Once--that's all it takes, if you exercise some patience. Why don't you go post at your lonely blog; you never have problems there...

Winnow: Maybe it the Christian theocracy woking to silence you.

It's not the religion that is the problem, it is when men use religion and the citizens' personal connection to it to gain power and money. It is when these men spout rhetoric that they don't believe in to bend the will of the people through trickery of association that upsets me.

Religion has and always will be a tool of manipulation for those in power and those seeking power. It is an available tool, not the only tool and not always used and that certainly is an unintended consequence of strong faith. This is why I would never vote for a candidate based on religious beliefs.

George Bush could be saying a holy prayer one day talking about angels and giving America the finger on camera the next. (we've all seen the clip of Bush giving America the finger, so I won't provide the link).

Being a non-subscriber to the idea of ghosts and goblins and other such mumbo-jumbo like religion, I find this discussion quite humorous and also an example of how to waste one's time on dumb stuff.

Although I am an atheist, I do not hate nor fear religion. What I do despise are those who use religion, any religion, to serve as an excuse to kill or enslave others. Those people (not necessarily the religion) are evil and must be captured, imprisoned, or killed.

I've only been on the planet for six decades, but the biggest event I ever witnessed that involved Christians and violence was Waco and the Branch Davidians. And as I recall it, all those who were killed were....Christians - thanks to Janet Reno and Ol' Slick.

Mark:

You requested, "Name the Christian theocracy, since you've read so much history."

My reply:

Great Rome, after 324.

Byzantium, until it's fall in 1453.

Hey Mark,
What would you call the Spanish Inquisition?
Just wondering.

Rev.-

Are you saying that the President and the Attorney General should personally direct the ATF, completely ignoring the estabished chain of command?

The ATF is just a joke, period.

What would you call the Spanish Inquisition?

Ummm, the Spanish Inquisition. Just a guess.

Rev.-

Are you saying that the President and the Attorney General should personally direct the ATF, completely ignoring the estabished chain of command?

The ATF is just a joke, period.

To be fair, Clinton used religion as well, especially among black voters. He then committed several obvious sins with no regard for his supposed religious beliefs.

I know there are candidates out there that have strong religious beliefs. I believe that they don't survive Washington though. Working in their home states? Sure. However, Washington is anything but christian.

"firmly respect the rights of others", the right of gays to make legal contracts with the several states in marriage? The right to Not say the pledge of alligence or pray in public schools? The right to see a doctor of your choice and have medical proceedures kept private? The right to not work on the Sabbath as Commandment #3 commands? Peace

From the LA Times, we have this clear indication that Reno was in charge and was giving the orders. I'll bet she was checking with Bubba all the time too.

But the FBI believed Koresh was stalling and would backpedal once more. The bureau convinced Janet Reno that more must be done.

Her reasons: Koresh was becoming more erratic. There were reports that the children were being beaten (though these reports were never substantiated). There was concern that the FBI's hostage-rescue team was getting fatigued.

Reno and the FBI insisted the plan was not to end the standoff then and there. The action was "not an indication that our patience has run out," said bureau spokesman Bob Ricks. It was instead "the next logical step in a series of actions to bring this episode to a conclusion."

Reno authorized the use of CS gas--actually a fine powder that burns the eyes and skin. It was known that the Davidians did not have children's gas masks; it was hoped that the "maternal instinct" would lead mothers to bring their children out.

Interestingly, the US Atty General ordered gas attacks on children under the "enlightened" Clinton administration. We all know how Waco turned out. The ATF worked for Reno. She gave the orders.

So how is Clinton directly responsible for the actions of Janet Reno?

Did the trail ever lead directly to clinton?

So how is Clinton directly responsible for the actions of Janet Reno?

Who appointed her? Did he fire her? Sounds like an endorsement to me. Its good though that you backed off from claiming Reno was innocent.

If lack of punishment equates to endorsement, then does Bush endorse Saudi Arabia's teaching of Wahabiism (known to the US as a terrorist Ideology)?

If lack of punishment equates to endorsement, then does Bush endorse Saudi Arabia's teaching of Wahabiism (known to the US as a terrorist Ideology)?

If lack of punishment equates to endorsement

And now you resort to changing the subject. I will assign that as your admission that you have no legitimate argument.

shortz,

You bring up a Mel Brooks skit as your proof? Jeesh! There's just no hope for you, it would seem.

Salve,

An attempt to enforce social and religious conformity in the service of Spanish political goals - it was the Spanish government that created, endorsed and profited from the Inquisition...the Church in Rome repeatedly told the Spanish to cool it, only to be rebuffed...because Spain wasn't a theocracy and thus the Pope could be ignored at will.

I generally agree with most of what you write, but you botched one big time in your recent posting. Check out a history book at your local library and look up Cromwell, and while you are at it, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holy Roman Empire, and the entire history of the middle ages in Western Europe. You'll no doubt come to the conclusion that the statement about never having been a Christian theocracy was rather inane.

with my only observation being that Christianity is unknown to them because they simply refuse to learn anything about it. More comforting, it seems to them, to not know about it at all and just rely upon slanders issued by the overtly anti-religious.

Since were relying on personal observation I will say my observation is that most Americans who are not tied to any religion were typically raised Christian and many even attended Christian schools. There are exceptions of course, but everyone I know was raised as a Christian. I find it quite ignorant to say these people know nothing about Christianity.

How many of the atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc that post here were raised Christian? I was for starters.

How about the Papal States?

slaw,

The Papal States were a secular nation providing the head of the Catholic Church the means to not be dominated by any temporal ruler. While governed ultimately by the Pope, day to day affairs were largely in the hands of secular authorities and at no time did the Pope's attempt theocratic rule.

Gary,

I beg to differ - look up what constitutes a theocracy and see the difference.

Ancient Egypt was theocratic; ancient Sumeria was; modern Iran is. While at times Christianity has been very dominant, it never ruled - it couldn't; its simply not possible.

we are the most vigorous defenders of individual freedom

-now that's funny...sad, but funny

I fear Christofascists because:

I'm not afraid of gay marriage.
I am afraid of no health care.

What is wrong with a Christian theocracy? I can understand a democrat's fear of one, but Republican's need to circle the wagons and push for theocracy. President Bush IS the one, I am convinced of it, the one chosen by Our Father to lead the world to rapture. We may get there in less than ten short years, but only if Republicans can shut the Dems out long enough to keep them from mucking up the President's well-laid plans for creating the groundwork for the final battle on the plains of Armageddon in the Middle East. Stand together!

Opus,

Ah, but we are - we just don't think that freedom really entails the ability to get laid whenever you want...freedom is the ability to worship God, or not worship, as one chooses...the rest of it is fluff.

Mark should be in some home for crazy people. I don't know where he is writing this blog from, nor do I care, but this guy is nuts, he doesn't live on this planet, he doesn't live in this dimension. He is so uneducated I have a hard time understanding how he could get through this world knowing absolutely nothing, and actually having contradictory ideas about life and history, yet he knows how to write.

Sorry I can't debate you, but in your head, the only voice that exists is your own and who ever is in power at the time.

"There never has been a Christian theocracy," you wrote. Are you totally ignorant of history.
1400's Isabelle of Spain ran all the Jews out of Spain because she thought they would pollute the Christian culture. Those that did not leave were victims of the Inqusition.
Early Popes had that most powerful armies of Europe. During the Medici's times, Pope Sixtus was a tyrant who planned the assasinations of Lorenzo Medici and his brother. The assasinations were carried out by priests. Lorenzo survived.
The theocratic conquest of the Hawaian Islands killed 98% of the native population through disease.
This is why George Washington stated in the Treaty of Tripolli that the U.S. was NOT founded on Christian principals. Most of the founding fathers were not Christians. Thomas Jefferson scoffed at Christians.

"There are exceptions of course, but everyone I know was raised as a Christian. I find it quite ignorant to say these people know nothing about Christianity." by: Brokeback

Knowing something about Christianity is not the same thing as understanding Christianity.

Many Americans were raised by doctors. Does that mean they understand medicine? Many Americans were raised by chemists. Does that mean they understand chemistry. Many Americans were raised by lawyers. Does that mean they understand the law? Many Americans were raised by architects. Does that mean they understand architecture? And so on....

PrinceofLight: Is that you Jeremiah?

I hope you are a spoofer cause I'm scared s**tless of being "left behind". Of course if the type of people that rise up to heaven are Mel Gibson and George Bush and Mark Noonan, well I'll take my chances right here!

The Gross Man claims "we've all seen the clip of Bush giving America the finger..."

We ALL have??? First, I have never seen a photo of Bush flipping anyone off. Secondly, who would be the person to know, somehow, that such bird was directed toward "America"? Get real. You have to stretch so far for something to gripe about, you just look ridiculous.

Correct! There has never been a theocracy by Christianity!

Although!, The thing we really need to focus on here is, is that WE(conservatives) as Christians unlike the dems, We DON'T want our symbols of God taken FROM America!, In example the dems want to remove the soledad cross, I think it's in the state of Washington, But praise God! they didn't succeed in doing it!, They wanted to take the ten commandments out of the court rooms, they want to take our freedom to pray in schools away!, they want to remove In God we trust from the federal mint, and many,many more of example's that the dems would like to take from the Christian community as our freedoms!!

You see many people confuse the Christian people as the ones responible for wanting to take away America's freedom to worship whichever gods they choose! BUT IT'S NOT!!
It is THEY the GODLESS DEMOCRATS which want to take away the ONE in which ALL RESPECT IS DUE!!

It is all you hear the democrats preach is "Oh those ol fundamentalist"!
It is not because the democrats are scared; it is because they have NO desire to yearn for Christ!, the one who PAID IT ALL, FOR YOU AND I!!

So, We as Christians need to share the love of Christ with the these people; and let them know that knowing Christ is the only way to have peace and comfort in there time of need!!

Jeremiah

PrinceofLight: Is that you Jeremiah?

I hope you are a spoofer cause I'm scared s**tless of being "left behind". Of course if the type of people that rise up to heaven are Mel Gibson and George Bush and Mark Noonan, well I'll take my chances right here!

There is something I would like to clear up for people here!!

Many people cannot distinguish between a Jew and a Gentile!, They ask the question, How do you know if you are a Jew or a Gentile?

These two verses should help!!

The first one is in Romans 3:29

Is God the God of Jews only?
Is He not God of the Gentiles too?
Yes, of Gentiles too, SINCE THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith!
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith?
Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Faith my friends, Faith in Jesus!!
He will work wonders in your life!!

Ok, The second verse states:

In John 4:21-24 He was speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well!

Jesus declared, ""Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor is Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
God is the spirit!!, AND HIS WORSHIPERS MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH!!

Jesus is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE!!

:)

Jeremiah

Ash,

I thought we already cleared that up about the spoofing issue?

I don't know who princeoflight is!!

AND.........

ONCE AGAIN!!, I AM NOT A SPOOFER!OK, ONE MORE TIME, I A-M N-O-T A S-P-O-O-F-E-R!!

Dad speaks for me once and a while, he had a typekey identity, you might remember: truthisright!, But he quit posting!

He's not interested in this blogging so he uses mine to speak instead, once in a while!!, and when he does post, he always makes sure to clarify that he's the one posting underneath his post!!, Just like I always put my name underneath my post!!

But, He probably not going to post anymore!

My brother lucas, he's not interested either!, He's got other things to do in his spare time like play his playstation II!!

It's shame this has to keep going on about spoofing!!, I don't know any other way to get you to believe me!!, It seems I have to tell you all my personal business and my life story to get you to believe me!! GEEESH!!!

Now this is the LAST TIME I'm telling you!!

Jeremiah

For many years the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of this world have been accused of trying to set up a theocracy in our nation. That is nothing but Dogma from the Left. These Believers have done a lot to help people. Sure they have made mistakes - all good leaders do! I have found that whenever good folks are having a positive impact on society, the Left throws a label on them. I guess the newest label is trying to set up a "theocracy."

For many years the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of this world have been accused of trying to set up a theocracy in our nation. That is nothing but Dogma from the Left. These Believers have done a lot to help people. Sure they have made mistakes - all good leaders do! I have found that whenever good folks are having a positive impact on society, the Left throws a label on them. I guess the newest label is trying to set up a "theocracy."

Jeremiah, I know you are not a spoofer. Don't worry about spoofing any more, okay?
:)

Bush giving finger:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2005/07/bush_flips_out_1.html

hhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=YVynnbx1Xsc&search=Bush%20finger

There you are, bush giving the finger. Not directed 'at America', just for fun. However, it isn't something my conservative father would ever be caught dead doing since you can't worship christ with the same tongue that curses others.

Freedom1,

Thanks!

I know you believe me!

I'm sorry I just got a little carried away there!

I guess Ash was just joking about hoping me being a spoofer!

Sometimes I don't use my thinker the way I should!

I won't bring it up again!!

Sweat beads popping out on my forehead I'm so embarrassed!!

I'm going to go hide, Mark is probablly going to scold me!!

Mark, I'm sorry I won't do it again!!

Jeremiah

I think Sunshine Rose hit the nail on the head, anytime that someone tries to do something that is actually good, the fire comes.

The Christians haven't tried to setup a theocracy, it is in-fact the left wing that has tried to do this. Along with their faithful allies the ACLU, Women's Liberation Movement, and the many other Anti-Christian groups that are out there. The way they see it, it's ok to have every religion BUT Christianity. Want an example? Right now we're at the point where if a Pastor speaks out against gay/lesbianism, the church can lose their right to being a non-taxable group. That means that if they say one thing that is considered against Gay people, then every donation, every offering, and every piece of material income that is brought into the church will be taxed accordingly. (I'm sure everyone knows and understands, just wanted to clarify). Is that not what you would consider trying to shut up and scoot out Christianity? They want to deny pastors, essentially, their right to free-speech and the right to spread the Gospel. They want to punish those who are trying to spread THE TRUTH!

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson haven't tried to setup any sort of theocracy, as much as some of the liberal-minded persons on here might like to believe. Many people have been seduced into a trap by the democrats, which is exactly what the demo's in the senate want. They try to make things look pleasing to the eye, and do their best at making people think that the world would be a much easier place if we all just decided to scoot Christian ethics to the side. This is one of Satan's main tactics. We see Satanic forces at work every day when things like this are audaciously proposed in the senate. We try to over-turn such laws as abortion and things like that, but the liberals hound and howl the people to make sure that they stay enacted. It is a crying shame. No, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson haven't tried to scoot anyone aside or make people think that Christians are supreme to everyone else. They've only tried to tell and warn people about the dangers of liberalism. Like the saying says "Sin will take you farther than you may want to go". But thanks be to God that we have an escape from the rope that is slowly, but surely, tightening around our necks, and that rope is [sin].

One last thought ...

As the democrats and satanic forces working through them continue to propose these "pleasing" ideas, they are trying to blind people into thinking that things will slowly get better with the more of their great ideas that they can get passed. But slowly, and surely, they want to lead to one thing. And that's a COMMUNISTIC SOCIETY!! People need to wake up and realize that this is the way it starts. Once they get Christianity out, it's all just a matter of time. We need to stand up for our Christian beliefs!! Just look back into history, at the rise and fall of many countries. Most all started out and were founded on Christian principles. One that sticks out in my mind is the Israelites. They were founded on God's Holy Word, back in the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses. They had their ups and downs, but God always saw through for them when an intercessory leader came along and cried out to God, but ya know what led to their exile? Paganism, the worship of false gods, kicking out Christianity, consulting mediums and spiritists and placing faith in them. They had put themselves into a disastrous position, and inevitably that's EXACTLY what happened A DISASTER!

It's scary to even think that American's could lose the one thing we hold precious, and that's our freedom. I hope that some will start waking up and start fighting for the correct team. And what team is that? The Christian Team, The Republic Team, The "Conservative Train" if you will. We have to be like trains, non-stop, fully-loaded, FULL STEAM AHEAD!

Lastly, I also wanted to say I'm sorry for my sporadic presence around here ... I just came to realize, this evening, that I've been prioritizing things wrongly. I hope you'll forgive me, and I'm gonna do my best to start "being more regular", like the Metamucil commercial says. :-D LOL.

Lucas.

Freedom,

Good point - I was raised by Christians, and yet I didn't fully understand my faith until about 10 months ago.

Ash,

It is a bit different from that...you might want to look some info up.

Mark, I got this from the catholic encyclopedia from newadvent.org.

"Consists of the civil territory which for over 1000 years (754-1870) acknowledged the pope as temporal ruler."

It states the pope was the "temporal" ruler, to protect him from the "secular" ruler. You seemed to have stated it the other way in your reply.

"During the Renaissance, the papal territory expanded greatly, notably under Pope Alexander VI and Pope Julius II. The Pope became one of Italy's most important secular rulers as well as the head of the Church, signing treaties with other sovereigns and fighting wars."

you stated "While governed ultimately by the Pope, day to day affairs were largely in the hands of secular authorities..." were not most of these "secular authorities" members of the clergy? All I have found in researching it states as much.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head - with my only observation being that Christianity is unknown to them because they simply refuse to learn anything about it. More comforting, it seems to them, to not know about it at all and just rely upon slanders issued by the overtly anti-religious.

Knowing something about Christianity is not the same thing as understanding Christianity.

Freedom0 please read what Mark wrote again. I was responding to what Mark wrote and I don't see him mention the word understand anywhere in there. He uses the word know multiple times. The closest thing to understand is the word learn. People that are raised Christian learn about Christianity, that is what happens when you are raised in a certain religion. When your parents are doctors you don't go the hospital every Sunday; but when you are raised a Christian you go to church every Sunday.

So, you want to change the argument in the middle of the debate because you have nothing to stand on. Why can you not admit that once again Noonan has been caught in an amazingly ignorant statement. His hatred of non-christians is evident everyday on this site and you seem to want to stand by him. Both of you really need to let go of your hate.

Good point - I was raised by Christians, and yet I didn't fully understand my faith until about 10 months ago.

You fully understand your faith? Really? Maybe I, a non-christian who therefore must not understand anything about your religion, give you a lesson. One of the main tenets of the bible is to not judge other people, to leave that to god for only god truly understands what is right and wrong. The only purpose of your website seems to be to judge others. Start with this and let me know when you are ready for another lesson.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head - with my only observation being that Christianity is unknown to them because they simply refuse to learn anything about it. More comforting, it seems to them, to not know about it at all and just rely upon slanders issued by the overtly anti-religious.

Knowing something about Christianity is not the same thing as understanding Christianity.

Freedom0 please read what Mark wrote again. I was responding to what Mark wrote and I don't see him mention the word understand anywhere in there. He uses the word know multiple times. The closest thing to understand is the word learn. People that are raised Christian learn about Christianity, that is what happens when you are raised in a certain religion. When your parents are doctors you don't go the hospital every Sunday; but when you are raised a Christian you go to church every Sunday.

So, you want to change the argument in the middle of the debate because you have nothing to stand on. Why can you not admit that once again Noonan has been caught in an amazingly ignorant statement. His hatred of non-christians is evident everyday on this site and you seem to want to stand by him. Both of you really need to let go of your hate.

Good point - I was raised by Christians, and yet I didn't fully understand my faith until about 10 months ago.

You fully understand your faith? Really? Maybe I, a non-christian who therefore must not understand anything about your religion, give you a lesson. One of the main tenets of the bible is to not judge other people, to leave that to god for only god truly understands what is right and wrong. The only purpose of your website seems to be to judge others. Start with this and let me know when you are ready for another lesson.

Brokeback - yes, one of the main tents of the Bible is to not judge other people. But those of us who are Believers in Christ are to be salt and light to the world. Salt preserves and light casts out darkness. There is right and wrong, good and evil. Not everything in life is the gray area - yes a lot is - but there is black and white, too. Being a Christian is quite a walk - it's a process of growing closer to the Lord - and at times when we feel like He has moved away -He hasn't, we have.

Broke,

Can you trace back and provide just one statement where Mark or any of the other Conservative Christians on this site have concretely judged anyone? I'm not asking for a big spill over this, I just want one statement.

Sure, they might have laid out simple fact as to what some people are doing, but they have never said "You [insert name here] are going to hell, and I know it for a fact!" If you are referring to them as doing something else, then you might have ground to stand on. Even so at that, you would have the wrong idea of what judging people is. Doing anything other than that is not judging people, it's called critiquing.

Provide one concrete statement, and then everyone can go from there. We wanna start with facts, and not just some out of the blue claim that you have fired off.

Lucas.