I tried to post this in the previous thread, but didn't seem to take. It's more appropriate here:

Hate to break this to you Mark, but most people understand that this is in a way a proxy war between the US and Iran.

that this war started a day before the UN was to meet on Iran's nuclear program is no surprise.

Unfortunately, the US and Israel made the mistake of thinking that Israel could destroy the military militia of hezbollah with a military campaign. They could if innocent life was of no consequence, but it is. And now they see what many others have seen for a while, that only through negotiation and politics will Israel be secure.

In 1982 after a assassination attempt by the PLO operation inside of lebanon, Israel launched Operation Peace in Galilee. This ended in the occupation of southern Lebanon which was the driving force behind the creation and existence of Lebanon. Just some have claimed that Israels attack now will bring about peace, they thought the 1982 invasion would bring peace. It clearlly did not.

Also, Israeli destruction of the PLO in Palestine led to Hamas. No peace there.

As I said before, it was hard to blame Israel for their immediate and strong military action. And that there was nothing much to initially do diplomatically. Unfortunately, the US made the mistake of not intervening soon enough and calling for a cease fire before negotiations. Israel now sees that its military might will not bring about the demands it made on totally disarming hezbollah (they have backed off this demand) and they now see their military campaign is doing more harm that good (48-hour halt to the attacks).

It was the US' job to help bring these two things about quicker. They failed to do this. Hezbollah is still going to be standing after this is all said and done, with much more support in the arab world than it had before.

What the US has to do now is call for an immediate cease fire and have serious talks with Syria about aiding the US in cutting off Iranian influence in Lebanon.

Tom,

No, that is a fool's errand - a cease fire will be considered a sign of weakness and will only encourage the Islamo-fascists to fight even more...they must be destroyed, or surrender unconditionally. There is nothing for us to negotiate with the Islamo-fascists about - they want us destroyed, we don't want to be destroyed, there's no middle, compromise course between the two extremes. This isn't you and I swapping an increase in primary education funding in return for a capital gains tax cut - we're not dealing with reasonable people open to debate.

It is our job to back Israel 100% in this until total victory over Hizbollah.

Well Mark, sounds like you're coming around to my view, which I've posted earlier (or maybe you had it all along). There are two ways, and ONLY two ways to deal with jihadi terrorists:
1. Kill them, or
2. Let them kill you.

Likewise, Tom, there are ONLY two ways to bring peace between Lebanon and Israel:
1. Hezbollah is destroyed, or
2. Israel is destroyed.

Yes, I know that sounds drastic, but I'm just facing reality, harsh as it is. We all need to get through our thick skulls the basic fact that the fight against radical Islam is a fight TO THE DEATH, and the reason for this is that the existence of non-muslim states is against the religion of the jihadis.

Israel must totally destroy Hezbollah!

Tom

"We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

As Iran's proxy, Hezbollah shares Iran's goal. Its really pretty simple. We don't wish to be ruled by Islam or by Islamic Extremists. There really is nothing to negotiate. The only choice is to fight through to a complete victory, much like in WWII. An imcomplete victory will only mean the enemy will come back stronger than before. The only reasonable "job" the US has is to stay out of Israel's way and let them take care of business. Unfortunately a 48 hour halt will probably be to much. It will allow Hezbollah time to rearm and to regroup. This will only lead to more deaths on all sides.

If we wish to have diplomacy, these efforts should be focused on getting Russia and China to withdraw their support from the terrorist supporting states. If we are able to do this, the terrorist supporting states should be much easier to defeat.

The world has lost its way morally. It is unethical to compromise the national securtiy of a western style democratic country because of oil needs or because we are afraid of more terrorists attacks. Specifically the current American policy of treating Arab theocracies as equals to Israel needs to stop.

Finally, if Israel is going to completely eliminate Hezbollah's military capability, at some point, they will need to commit a large amount of soldiers on the ground. For whatever reason, thus far they have been reluctant to do this.

A cease now as opposed to two weeks ago or even one week ago will be seen as more an act of weakness. But, sometimes you just have to do the right thing.

An initial show of Israeli force was all that was needed. They hit hezbollah hard in the first week. The US shouild have called for a cease-fire then engaged the lebanese, UN and other mideastern countries (most specifically Syria) toward to disarmorment of hezbollah. Israel would have had the moral authority at that point. They could have more effectively spoke with the Lebanese people about Hezbollah holding their country hostage.

Now with 3 weeks of attacks and casualties and Hezbollah holding up relatively well, Israel's position is weakened. Destroying Hezbollah militarily is not a tenable goal, even Israel knows this at this point, Mark.

What you are advocating right now is what people who backed the '82 invasion advocated. Peace through war. 25 years later, it's deja vu all over again.

Tom,

You really need to grasp this - as long as Hizbollah isn't destroyed or forced to surrender unconditionally, then none of its sponsors will ever agree to its disarmament. Why on earth do you think Syria and Iran built up Hizbollah? They did it for precisely the reason of causing death and destruction upon command in the service of Iranian and Syrian interests. The Iranian mullahs aren't horrified by what is happening - they are laughing with delight over it - this is what they want: death and destruction, especially of innocent people.

They are wicked, Tom.

If I remember correctly, Hizbollah was elected to power in a fair election.

It's very easy to tar an entire group of people with a broad brush and then advocate they all be eradicated. I beleive that is called "ethnic cleansing," or "genocide," or some such behavior of fascists and dictators.

A lesson here is that Bush's self-appointed Messianic trip of transforming the Middle East into a peaceful, democratic region is yet another abject failure.

War needs to be rightly seen as a total failure of civility, diplomacy and politics on the part of all those involved. But many here seem to cheer it on hoping for more death and destruction.

Maybe you own stock in United Technologies, Boeing or firms that make caskets and body bags.

It's really ironic that many Bush supporters also claim to be followers of Jesus yet are more excited about bunker buster bombs and dead Arabs than you are about helping the poor and healing the wounded.

Wade

One question for Wade- How should the hezbos shooting rockets from civilian buildings be dealt with?

"It's really ironic that many Bush supporters also claim to be followers of Jesus yet are more excited about bunker buster bombs and dead Arabs than you are about helping the poor and healing the wounded."

Wade

While their unbending, uncompromising stance is applauded and cheered by the faithful, death & destruction is visited upon the innocent who are caught in the crossfire. War, any war, seems to be their new religion. Forget the teachings of Jesus, they are just not interested.

If I remember correctly, Hizbollah was elected to power in a fair election.

To power? 20 percent of the parliament is "to power?" I'll bet you think the donkeys are in charge of congress too.

It's very easy to tar an entire group of people with a broad brush and then advocate they all be eradicated. I beleive (sic) that is called "ethnic cleansing," or "genocide," or some such behavior of fascists and dictators.

It is very easy to "tar" a group like Hezbollah which has as part of its charter the destruction of Israel. Its whole purpose to drive Israel from its land. And the eradication of a band of terrorists who repeatedly attack Israel, killed over 200 Americans in Beirut in 1983 an has a long history of unprovoked violence is not "ethnic cleansing" no matter how much you wish to characterize it as such That very fact that you try proves that you are not a serious person. The attempt to exterminate the Jews, which is the sworn objective of Hezbollah, is the fascist position - defending them means you are defending fascism. What does that make you? Either a fool or a fascist. Or both.

A lesson here is that Bush's self-appointed Messianic trip of transforming the Middle East into a peaceful, democratic region is yet another abject failure.

Total bull. The President is attempting to bring about a transformation in the Middle East because he knows, as you apparently don't, that democratic governments have no history of attacking each other. And he, unlike you, was elected and re-elected to his job based in part on that vision.

War needs to be rightly seen as a total failure of civility, diplomacy and politics on the part of all those involved. But many here seem to cheer it on hoping for more death and destruction.

War is what you have whenever a country attacks another. Hezbollah, hiding behind civilians did that to Israel and Israel responded. At this point there is no war, but there could be. Lebanon's prime minister announced today that the country now stands united with Hezbollah to fight Israel. I think were I him, I would think twice about that - before Israel does declare war on Lebanon, which won't last long.

Maybe you own stock in United Technologies, Boeing or firms that make caskets and body bags.

And maybe your panties being in a bunch makes you sound like such a twit, but I suspect this is the real "you."

It's really ironic that many Bush supporters also claim to be followers of Jesus yet are more excited about bunker buster bombs and dead Arabs than you are about helping the poor and healing the wounded.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am an atheist. That stupid little trick won't work on me. Now go find your mommy and see if she can give you a nice warm glass of milk and tuck you into bed before the bogey man gets you.

Earlier today, in Church, we all prayed for the deaths - every last one of them, on both sides.

Not what you wrote, but what you meant.

Tom, Wade, CO,
If this truly is a war between us and the Iranians, how exactly did we get them to kidnap Isaeli soldiers and fire on Israel. Then we instructed Hizbollah to launch from civilian settlements, then according to your statements we instructed Israel to fire on these targets. But we were really clever when we had them hit a target that had "civilians" knowing that it would give Kofi another platform to rant and rave against the US. I've seen footage of some of the launchers, kinda hard to miss, so why aren't these people in Lebanon raising holy hell when these things drive into a neighborhood. Your fantasies amaze me, have you tried online chess-you could move all your little pawns around and pretend its the US versus the rest of the world. Then you could make sure that we (you know the US and Israel) would lose and you go to bed happy. The rest of us will handle reality.

Israel must totally destroy Hezbollah!

This is truly a fools errand Mark. Hezbollah is the PLO in different clothing. Did you watch any of the tapes from Beruit today? Death to Israel. Death to America. This is what you heard above the crying. Don't you realize how many new recruits were made today?

Israel misjudged Hezbollah's strength. There seems no military way to defeat Hezbollah. It will just morph into the next incarnation.

Barney,

That is a cruel and outrageous statement on your part - we really did, I really did, pray for them all...I want this war to be over...but it won't be over by allowing the wicked to survive. They must be taken or destroyed.

“I've seen footage of some of the launchers, kinda hard to miss,..” posted by mary s

Yes, this true. I saw the launchers as well. Now, why don’t you go on Al Jezera, and convince the Arab world that those 17 kids had it coming? Let me know how that turns out.

BG2000,
I'm not as good at rhetoric and propaganda as they are on al jezera. Why don't you answer the question why they are launcing near civilians-bet you won't see that question on al jezer or any of the other arab networks you frequent!

That is a cruel and outrageous statement on your part

Are your panties in a bunch Mark or are we seeing a softer tender side of the man who wants to blow people off the face of the earth?

"bet you won't see that question on al jezer or any of the other arab networks"

Again, I agree with you. That is the point.

Wade,

This is just considered 'compassionate conservatism'.

Mark,

I find it ironic that a self-claimed Man of Chirst would advocate a full-out war when Jesus taught his followers to peaceful, charitable men But I digress.........................

Now with the plan of destroying Hizbollah, let me make this point: even if you destroyed Hizbollah, you would have another terrorist orgainzation sprout from the ground over time, that could be ten times worse than the organization you just got rid of.

In my opinion, diplomacy is our best weapon against terrorism, cause you can drop as many bombs as you want but keep this in mind: the person you kill today, the terroist network, whoever it may be, will use that person's death to drawn more people to their cause.

To all the Bushbaots who have murder on their minds, remember this:

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."
-Jesus Christ

It's very easy to tar an entire group of people with a broad brush and then advocate they all be eradicated. I beleive that is called "ethnic cleansing," or "genocide," or some such behavior of fascists and dictators.

No, Wade, this is genocide. Getting rid of Hezbollah is just draining the swamp.

Now, why don’t you go on Al Jezera, and convince the Arab world that those 17 kids had it coming? Let me know how that turns out.

Probably about the same as all these incidents, Barney.

Teenage Liberal,
As a mom of teenagers I don't like to see you pummeled on your thoughts. I do not agree with them, and I read some of your comments the other day regarding religion and find it a bit hypocritical for you to tap into now to further your point. I myself am not a believer in organized religion, but that does not keep me from being spiritual in my own way. I do admire you for having opinions and trying to state your point. I have a teenager that posts here as well, and let me tell you the libs are NOT kind to her, but she like you has every right to her opinion. I once heard a phrase that I may or may not repeat here perfectly but here goes-conservative when you're young you have no heart, liberal when you're old you have no brain. When you're young and even when you are old like me these events unfolding can be upsetting, no one wants war. But at times it is inevitable, this case is an example of a nation doing what is has to do to ensure it's own existence. I support that, even when it is unpleasant.

A liberal view...

America must disarm all police and law enforcement personnel if we want to reduce and ultimately eliminate violent crime.

Police and law enforcement personnel who carry guns cause criminals to feel threatened. Criminals fear for their own safety and their very lives from these law enforcement personnel. It is this threat that encourages criminals to carry knives and guns in self defense to protect themselves. We must eliminate this threat to criminals if we want or expect them to lay down their weapons. We must learn to talk to criminals and engage them in a dialog. By doing so, we can teach them the error of their ways, and they will ultimately stop their criminal activity. By permitting law enforcement personnel to carry guns, we are only encouraging more criminals to carry guns and knives for their own self protection.

It is up to us as a civilized people to make the first move. We must set an example. We must disarm the police to show that we mean criminals no harm. Only then can we expect criminals to lay down their arms. As long as we permit police to carry guns, we are only encouraging even more criminals to carry guns for their own protection.

It is the police who are the real problem... not criminals.

AAR

Wade and Barney,
How 'bout it-what is your stance on Hizbollah launching from areas packed with civilians. We'll wait......

Wade and Barney,
How 'bout it, what's your stance on Hizbollah launching from civilian packed areas? We'll wait....

Okay let me just pop in here real quick with this. Haven't we talked with these folks before? Didn't we make Israel pull back after they kicked butt last time? Didn't they give them land again and again? How much "talks" can folks do before they take action?

They took action before and then pulled back, what happened then? Haven't they been attacked even after "pulling back" several times? How many times must the same dance be repeated?

If the gaol of Islamist extremists is to eradicate Jews this is an expected outcome of religious intolerance and ignorance. On the part of the Hezbollah, in this case.

Taking up arms to neutralize Hezbollah's fighting ability will only have very short term effects, if any.

The only "solution" people in power see is to drop more bombs promising only greater sufferring on both sides.

Religious extremism fuels this rage in the Middle East and education and healthy skepticism will "drain the swamp."

We also need to address religious extremism in this country that advocates bigotry against homosexuals, assualts on liberties and glorifies war and violence.

War and conflict in the middle east result from religious factions taking over what should be civic governments. You don't like the results, eh?

Well don't let it happen here, either.

Wade

The root of thi

If the gaol of Islamist extremists is to eradicate Jews this is an expected outcome of religious intolerance and ignorance. On the part of the Hezbollah, in this case.

Taking up arms to neutralize Hezbollah's fighting ability will only have very short term effects, if any.

The only "solution" people in power see is to drop more bombs promising only greater sufferring on both sides.

Religious extremism fuels this rage in the Middle East and education and healthy skepticism will "drain the swamp."

We also need to address religious extremism in this country that advocates bigotry against homosexuals, assualts on liberties and glorifies war and violence.

War and conflict in the middle east result from religious factions taking over what should be civic governments. You don't like the results, eh?

Well don't let it happen here, either.

Wade

The root of thi

Hizbollah committed acts of war against Israel; Lebanon did nothing to stop these attacks from their territory. Hizbollah does not wear uniforms and fires from civilian and even UN areas.

So.... what do you expect? I mean really? The libbies are always saying how the Geneva Accords apply to the Islamo-wackos. So, where are their uniforms? What the hell are they doing firing from apartment buildings? And, their PRIMARY target appears to be civilians.

The Arab street is mad? To hell with them.

"Israel must totally destroy Hezbollah!"-Freedom1

Yes. Absoulutely!!

I was watching War stories by Oliver North, and he said that Hezbollah has killed more American people than any other terrorist organization!

No cease fire will work, time has proven it, so if this means fight to the death, then this is what Israel must do for freedom!

Hezbollah are a cruel, cruel people this cannot go on any longer!!

Jeremiah

You are all missing an important point.
Hezbollah's leadership - its REAL leadership - is in Iran. Along with its bank account.
Lebanon is not going to solve anything.
You are smashing the worker ants when you need to get the queen.

AAR:
Actually, the police and law enforcement officials have not been able to eliminate the crime rate because they are reactive, like the UN. They have to wait for a crime to be committed, then they must follow all sorts of confining rules in order to stop the criminakls from reoffending. Watch Law and Order to see what I mean.
Now, a proper neo-conservative police force would arrest anyone they suspected of committing a crime, and anyone they reasonably believe MIGHT commit a crime, now or in future. That way, crimes would not be committed.

Anyone find it interesting that the only civilians dying each time are women and children....hmmmm.

To quote a soldier departing for Iraq (or to wherever he deploys from) tomorrow:

"I wish we would have just nuked those ragheads at the gitgo."

He'll come back a changed man as this is his first deployment and is still an immature bastard. However, get the women and children out and get on with the non-nuclear destruction.

TL,

By your logic, we shouldn't have fought the Nazis until they were taken or destroyed because some other Nazi-like organization would have arisen to take its place.

You're a bright kid, but you also don't know very much yet. I think some time ago I recommended you read Winston Churchill's "The World Crisis" - you really should...a sample:

War...should be a succession of climaxes on which everything is staked, toward which everything tends and from which permanent decisions are obtained. These climaxes have usually been called battles. A battle means that the whold of the resources on either side that can be brought to bear are, during the course of a single episode, concentrated upon the enemy. The scale of a battle must bear due proportion to the whole fighting strength of the armies. Five divisions engaged out of any army of seven may fight a battle. But the same operation in an army of seventy divisions, although the suffering and slaughter are equal, sinks to the rank of petty combat. A succession of such combats auguments the losses without raising the scale of events.

Moreover, a battle cannot, properly speaking, be considered apart from the time factor. By overwhelming the enemy's right we place ourselves in a position to attack the exposed flank or rear of his centre; or by piercing his centre we gain the possibility of rolling up his flanks; or by capturing a certain hill we command his lines of communication. But none of these consequential advantages will be gained if the time taken in the preliminary operation is so long that the enemy can make new dispositions - if, for instance, he can bend back his lines on each side of the rupture and fortify them, or if he can withdraw his army before the hill is taken which would command his communications.

This is war, TL, and wars don't end with cease-fires - they end when one side quits. Israel has the power to take or destroy Hizbollah and if Israel has the courage to press on, and provided Israel isn't held back by people entirely ignorant of how war is waged, then Hizbollah will be taken or destroyed. A battle will have happened - decisive results will be obtained, peace will be brought closer.

If, on the other hand, Israel falters or if Israel is forced to back off by world pressure, then all the death and suffering to this point will be WORTHLESS - it will be death and suffering to no purpose, and only the precursor to more death and suffering in the future, once Hizbollah is re-supplied and re-inforced.

My Lord does not say that I may never wage war - there is in the Bible not a single prohibition against war. We are prohibited to be cruel, to be unjust, to be uncharitible - we are commanded to love our enemies and pray for them, but we are not commanded to allow our enemies to rain death down upon us un-answered. The enemy has started this war and we must fight - and as soon as the enemy quits, we are to extend our hand and embrace them as our brothers who will then need all our help in order to rebuild their shattered lives.

Start to learn, TL - I'm sorry to so that those who have instructed you up till now have, wittingly or otherwise, fed you a diet of lies and half truths about the world.

Ash,

Don't be asinine - I want them to stop setting off bombs in marketplaces...just as soon as the terrorists stop doing that, then we'll have peace.

TL,

In shorter terms, it is much easier to argue if you assume your opponent's beliefs and walk away.

How do you negotiate with someone whose sole purpose is to destroy you?

It doesn't make sense...

"I want to blow you up."/"I don't want to be blown up."

That's about as a fundamental difference as you can have...

Ash is correct when he says:

"This is truly a fools errand Mark. Hezbollah is the PLO in different clothing. Did you watch any of the tapes from Beruit today? Death to Israel. Death to America. This is what you heard above the crying. Don't you realize how many new recruits were made today?"

Despite all of the calls here for Israel to destroy Hezbollah, modern history has shown that you can defeat states, but you can't defeat beliefs.

Lebanon has allowed an armed political party, essentially a belief movement aligned with other radical islamic movements, to attack a neighboring state from within its borders. Isn't this a pointless exercise in violence if Israel doesn't hold Lebanon responsible for Hezbollah? Shouldn't Israel be threatening to declare war on the STATE which condones Hezbollah's attacks - Lebanon?

Interesting.
While we're all saying that Israel cannot stop their attacks, and must crush Hezbollah or else, . . .

The Bush Government is negotiating a cease-fire.

Go figure.

Small Town Hick

I think the official line of talk is a sustainable cease fire that will lead to a change of the situation on the ground. As anyone who has read my posts here will know, I'm no fan of this president. It has alwasy been my concern that the US would push Israel into a cease fire before they have had a chance to accomplish their objectives. If this were to happen, this would only make the situation worse. It is unlikely that we will be able to achieve a change in the conditions on the ground that could lead to lasting peace without having Hezbollah militarily defeated. I hope and pray the Bush administration will recognize this and stay out of Israel's way.

extra,

Well, lets see...we've defeated Nazism, communism, fascism, Japanese imperialism, German imperialism...all beliefs, all defeated - and all defeated by war.

The belief we're currently fighting is that GOd commands and blesses a jihad against Judeo-Christian civilisation and that there is no chance that God's warriors can be defeated...for Hizbollah to stack arms and go into Israeli-run POW camps, and we'll strike a very, very strong blow against that belief.

"UPDATE II: Israel is bombing targets along the Lebanese-Syrian border."-MN

Good. It's about time!

B.Poster said, "I hope and pray the Bush administration will recognize this and stay out of Israel's way."

I think that President Bush wants Hezbollah militarily defeated, and he's attempting to give Israel the time and the political cover to do just that.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah is a cancer within the body of Lebanon. Hezbollah must be eradicated from Lebanon or it will just re-emerge stronger than ever. That means, obviously, severing Hezbollah's cash and weapons support from Syria and Iran, as well.

Hate to break this to you Mark, but most people understand that this is in a way a proxy war between the US and Iran.

Hate to break this to you Tom, but most of us already know this and you're a bit late with your revelation...as usual.

That means, obviously, severing Hezbollah's cash and weapons support from Syria and Iran, as well.

So, Freedom, would you agree that we need to inflict some major damage on both, and collateral damage be damned? It's the only way to get these tyrants to wake up, don'cha think?

Mark,

Yes, yes I get all that. But the fact is, we defeated Germany, not anti-semitism. We defeated Japan, not imperialism.

Israel wont defeat anti-Zionism by bombing civilian neighborhoods where Hezbollah fires rockets. Israel needs to hold the state - Lebanon - accountable for the actions of it's people. Especially if those actions are making war on neighboring states.

87% of the Lebanese people support Hezbollah's fight with Israel. Sounds like they're on board - not some innocent bystanders.

Wouldn't you say Israel needs to issue an ultimatum to Lebanon - round up and control these Hezbollah militants or we (Israel) shall declare war on Lebanon? From there, they could move on to Syria and Iran, if necessary. Drawing on the financial and military support of the US, their resources to wage war and defeat enemy states in the region would be limitless.

"How do you negotiate with someone whose sole purpose is to destroy you?"

You negotiate with hezbollah to stop the current violence.

Then the real negotiation and diplomacy comes with isolating hezbollah from the rest of the arab world. That is done through international aid and help for the lebanese government and pressuring syria to block the bridge between Iran and hezbollah, among other things.

This task is made harder the longer the violence continues. Destroying hezbollah militarily is not going to happen. Even if it did, when israel destroyed the military aspect of the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah sprung up.

The longer the fighting goes on, the more the arab street is for israel and grows angrier at israel, which makes it harder for arab governments to aid in the isolation and disarmorment of hezbollah.

The US should have stepped in MUCH sooner and seriously called for a cease fire. Israel is in a much weaker position now than it was two weeks ago.

Yeah, declare a cease fire. Have Kofi Cup Annan fly into Beirut to drink Cristal and eat an expensive meal. Nothing gets resolved with these cosmetic cease fires, which do not change anything ala the 1993 cease fire, the 1996 cease fire, and the wasted 2000 Clintune cease fire.

Maybe Madeline Albright can go in and fart on the parties.

87% of Lebanese support the Hezbos. What poll is this from? Is this a John Zogby Interactive Poll?

I thought that Daniel Ayalon's (the Israeli ambassador)comments to George Stephanopoulos, yesterday, when asked about accusations of war crimes committed by Israel were interesting -- "we didn't hear any questions about war crimes when your air campaign against Baghdad killed thousands."
The ambassador was correct in that we have heard darn little about possible war crimes in Iraq (and I don't mean a few rampaging marines), but that hardly absolves Israel for what they've inflicted on the Lebanese people.
I realize that the likelyhood of an Israeli general or minister finding themselves in a dock in the Hague is about the same as that of an American general or president joining them -- but until we start prosecuting ALL war crimes we will never achieve a truly civilized state.
I never fail to be amazed at the rampant militarism of this and other right-wing sites -- it doesn't take you long to realize that a lot of people (who don't have to die, of course) would choose war even when other options are available.
Madness!

Shouldn't Israel be threatening to declare war on the STATE which condones Hezbollah's attacks - Lebanon?

Absolutely. I have been wondering all along why Israel is not holding them responsible. This phony facade of "Hezbollah is doing this against the wishes of Lebanon" has been ripped to shreds and now even Lebanon's leaders are saying "Lebanon is one with Hezbollah in their fight against Israel." Note to the unobservant: They always have been. Ever wonder why UN 1559 was never implemented? Because Lebanon didn't want it implemented. Where there are problems like those between Israel and Hezbollah, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Lebanon is part of the problem.

I think that President Bush wants Hezbollah militarily defeated, and he's attempting to give Israel the time and the political cover to do just that.

Attempting? What is that? All he has to do is come out and say, "I support Israel's current efforts to defend itself from terrorist attacks, violations of its sovereignty, and the killing and kidnapping of its troops. My advice to Hezbollah is to disarm, negotiate a cease-fire with Israel, and forswear further acts of violence." Israel is the most hated nation in the world right now. What political cover do you think they have or need? Git her done, Israel and don't worry about what anybody thinks.

You negotiate with hezbollah to stop the current violence.

Pass that joint, pal. Negotiate with Hezbollah? You must be kidding. How, exactly, does a sovereign nation like Israel "negotiate" with a terrorist organization sworn to your destruction as their reason for existing? Where is their leader? We know where Israel's leaders are - why not Hezbollah's? I'll tell you why, their leader is that nut job in Iran. Nasrallah provides an effective target to deflect the aim from the true leader. And Iran is in no mood to negotiate anything but the method of extermination of the Jews.

Then the real negotiation and diplomacy comes with isolating hezbollah from the rest of the arab world. That is done through international aid and help for the lebanese government and pressuring syria to block the bridge between Iran and hezbollah, among other things.

You really believe this stuff, huh? Even given the latest statement from the prime minister of Lebanon stating that all Lebanon is united with Hezbollah? That is some good dope yer smoking there.

This task is made harder the longer the violence continues. Destroying hezbollah militarily is not going to happen. Even if it did, when israel destroyed the military aspect of the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah sprung up.

History is against you there. Hezbollah is easily defeated; Israel just has to drop the pretense that Lebanon is somehow an "innocent bystander" and get some troops into the country. The Lebanese army is a vaporous film of nothing. The only ones left to fight will be Hezbollah and with the pretense dropped, they will have no cover. Israel has a history of kicking butt in the Middle East and Hezbollah would be no exception if they just rolled up their sleeves and got busy. Then, they could negotiate - with the Lebanese.

The longer the fighting goes on, the more the arab street is for israel and grows angrier at israel, which makes it harder for arab governments to aid in the isolation and disarmorment of hezbollah.

They already, with few exceptions, call for Israel's "obliteration", "destruction", and "wiping Israel off the map." How much angrier can they get? And again, history is against you. In previous wars in the region that involved Israel, the longer they prosecuted the war, the more advantageous it became to Israel and the more her enemies were willing to negotiate - just to stop the resounding defeats.

The US should have stepped in MUCH sooner and seriously called for a cease fire. Israel is in a much weaker position now than it was two weeks ago.

The US cannot control this fight. They can talk to their friends in the Israeli government but they cannot dictate what they do. And I laugh at your assessment that Israel is in a weaker position. Which country is being systematically reduced to rubble? How high are the unreported casualties to Hezbollah? Which country's infrastructure is in shambles? Which country is blockaded? Which country has had all roads and bridges between it and Syria bombed into non-existence? Israel weaker? Hahahaha!

Yes, yes I get all that. But the fact is, we defeated Germany, not anti-semitism. We defeated Japan, not imperialism.

Bingo, EMedium

The ambassador was correct in that we have heard darn little about possible war crimes in Iraq

There's still a war in Iraq? Mmmm haven't heard much about that lately.

Day 1,229 of the war in Iraq

"Israel has a history of kicking butt in the Middle East and Hezbollah would be no exception if they just rolled up their sleeves and got busy."

If a history of kicking butt in the middle east was what was needed for lasting peace, why are they again fighting?

Again, Israel kicked the PLO's butt, and now we have Hamas (in power) and Hezbollah (the most popular organization right now in the middle east).

Military might is not the answer to a true peace. It is needed and is a component, but it's not the answer. History has proven this.

And I don't smoke pot.

"Even given the latest statement from the prime minister of Lebanon stating that all Lebanon is united with Hezbollah?"

If you recall, in the first week of this war, the lebanese government was much more distant in their rhetoric concerning Hezbollah. The conintued assault by Israel has united lebanon with hezbollah against Israel. It's in a sense justified some of hezbollah's extreme positions against israel to many lebanese.

Lebanon signed a UN charter saying it's goal is to disarm Hezbollah. With international support and aid (which was sorely lacking prior to this war) that can happen. This prolonged attack by Israel has made it harder though.

Extramedium is correct the war is with Lebanon, Iran, and Syria. Israel needs to be allowed to fight this war to completetion. While Israel has won every military confrontation, we in the West do not fully understand this enemy. Until we do, we will continue on the current stalemate or defeat. This is an enemy that will need to be fully defeated, in the manner of Nazi Germany or imperial Japan. As long as the war effort is directed at "terror" and not the states who support it we will not be able to have complete victory. Finally we need to recognize that the chief supporters of the terrorist supporting states are Russia and China.

"Hate to break this to you Tom, but most of us already know this and you're a bit late with your revelation...as usual."

That comment was in response to Mark's previous thread that singled-out the LA Times as understanding that this is a war with Iran -- while the rest of the MSM didn't.

Moved it to this thread because of the meat of the post was more appropriate.

But that was a good one, I'm totally late on stuff all the time.

If a history of kicking butt in the middle east was what was needed for lasting peace, why are they again fighting?

Because loony tunes types keep yelling "cease fire" before they get the job done and Israel agreed to go along with the "peace" nuts. That left them holding new territory and partially but not wholly destroying the enemies. All that ever did was allow them time to regroup, rearm and fan the flames of hatred until they were ready for another attack.

Again, Israel kicked the PLO's butt, and now we have Hamas (in power) and Hezbollah (the most popular organization right now in the middle east).

If Hamas is in fact the controlling power in Palestine, that makes Palestine the enemy of Israel. But they are not. And Hezbollah may be popular but what does that matter. Soon, if we let Israel TCB, they will be the "former" Hezbollah.

Military might is not the answer to a true peace. It is needed and is a component, but it's not the answer. History has proven this.

Neither is a stupid cease-fire. The way to end war is for one side or the other to win. Then there can be peace.

And I don't smoke pot.

Sorry, but the last guy I heard talking like that smoked it day and night. In a hooka, no less.

If you recall, in the first week of this war, the lebanese government was much more distant...

Well, I think your assessment is dead wrong. Lebanon has been in full support of Hezbollah for a long time. At least since the terrorist group blew up the US Marine barracks in 1983. What Israel has done is rip off this mask of deceit. The evidence is clear. Pity you can't see it.

Lebanon signed a UN charter saying it's goal is to disarm Hezbollah. With international support and aid (which was sorely lacking prior to this war) that can happen. This prolonged attack by Israel has made it harder though.

Yea, sure they did. That's why Hezbollah got disarmed, right? Are you sure you don't smoke pot?

And there's this report, complete with pictures, of the vile animals that Hezbollah are and how they put the civilian population at risk:

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

Another myth put to rest.

"87% of Lebanese support the Hezbos. What poll is this from? Is this a John Zogby Interactive Poll?"

This is from recent poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, reported by a variety of news outlets including here in the Christian Science Monitor.

I realize that the likelyhood of an Israeli general or minister finding themselves in a dock in the Hague is about the same as that of an American general or president joining them -- but until we start prosecuting ALL war crimes we will never achieve a truly civilized state.
I never fail to be amazed at the rampant militarism of this and other right-wing sites -- it doesn't take you long to realize that a lot of people (who don't have to die, of course) would choose war even when other options are available.
Madness!

Madness? Madness is you and you lefty, hate-America, blame-America friends who always bitch and whine about "disproportionate and unnecessary use of force," that "other options are available."

What are we gonna do, Sal--sit down and smoke the peace pipe with these barbarians? How 'bout we go to the U.N., who flew the Hezbollah flag next to theirs at observation posts in Lebanon? How 'bout we elect your saviour, Spitball Kerry, who claimed none of this would have happened under him?

C'mon, Sal, what would you do, smart guy?

Madness!!!

What are we gonna do, Sal--sit down and smoke the peace pipe with these barbarians? How 'bout we go to the U.N., who flew the Hezbollah flag next to theirs at observation posts in Lebanon? How 'bout we elect your saviour, Spitball Kerry, who claimed none of this would have happened under him? -- keefer

1. I don't smoke, so that would be a problem for me. Probably wouldn't hurt a few folks at this site, however.
2. As for the people in question; they certainly aren't barbarians -- though some of their actions seem barbaric. How very typical for you to attempt to dehumanize them though.
3. U.N. observers flying a Hezbollah flag next to their own sounds suspiciously like routine flag etiquette to me. You have heard of flag etiquette? Oh, that's right, you guys only respect one flag -- world be hanged.
4. I have no idea what Sen. Kerry (I assume that's the "spitball Kerry" you alluded to as my "saviour")would have done in Bush's place, though myself and most of the civilized world wish they'd found out.
As for your rant about disporportionate and unnecessary use of force and hate/blame America (madness) -- well, the massacre of civilians (by any party) in Lebanon and Iraq are plain and simple MURDER (or negligent homicide) and would certainly qualify as war crimes if a neutral party was doing the prosecutions (and could make the arrests).
The people who really hate/blame America are the myriad new enemies our actions (or, in Lebanon, inaction) have created:
Did you hear those folks chanting "Death to America -- death to Israel?"
The sum total of the Bush foreign policy -- really warms the heart.
I don't know about Sen. Kerry, but I opposed the Iraq War back when it was just a gleam in Rumsfeld's eye -- and I was right -- so that wouldn't be a problem.
A good president would have told Israel to cool its jets (literally) and use their special ops people to find their guys -- not kill a bunch of innocent women and kids.
There, that wasn't so tough was it?

Salvelinus

They were chanting "death to America" and "death to Israel" long before any of this started. Even if we had done nothing they would still be chanting these things. As for flying the Hezbollah flag next to the UN flag, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization who does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel is a member of the UN, as such only a despicable person would show Hezbollah the kind of respect that Israel should be shown.

When the US ivnaded Iraq, it was responding to a threat to its survival. When Israel invaded Lebanon, it was responding to an existential threat. The methods used to respond to these threats may have been misguided.

Simply sending in special ops guys to find their guys is not likely to work. It is generally assumed that the terrorist enemy we fight is weak. This assumption makes it far easier to vilify the US. Hezbollah terrorists are as well trained as any Israeli special ops person. There is a good chance they would prevail in such a confrontation. Israel needs to do whatever it takes to survive.

A good president would not tell Israel to cool its jets. A good president would stay out of Israel's way and let them do what they need to do to defend themselves.

Btw, if you've been paying attention you would probably realize that Qana may have been staged, however, it is unlikely the world will give Israel or America for that matter a fair trial. Oil and the threat of terrorist attacks simply speaks to loudly. By the calculations of most of the world, if it takes sacrificing Israel and compromising America's national security to stay in good graces with the world's major oil suppliers then so be it.

Finally, we do not "know" yet if it was a good idea to invade Iraq yet or not nor do we "know" yet if Israaeli actions were strategically sound yet or not. If people gave up this quickly in WWII we would likely be speaking German or Japanese right now.

There, that wasn't so tough was it?

It must've been, Sally, because you didn't answer a thing. In fact, you completed exposed yourself as a hate/blame-America/Israel terrorist appeaser. Thanks for the platitudes, Sally.

Matt, Mark, et.al., while I won't go as far as minnowhead and say this site sucks, because it doesn't, I will admit that the blue screen is becoming aggravating. And I know you don't have anything to do with TypeKey, but it's screwed up too. I ask to stay signed on for two weeks, but almost every time I leave this site, I am asked to sign in to comment.

It's almost as aggravating as Ash and Barney are...

Keefer:

My favorite bit of idiocy from your nutjob Nemesis "Sally" was this:

As for the people in question; they certainly aren't barbarians -- though some of their actions seem barbaric.

See, they're not barbarians when they crush a child's arm under a car tire because he got caught stealing a loaf of bread. And they're not barbaric when they behead women for showing their ankles and homosexuals for just being alive. And they're not barbarians when they kidnap people, torture them and then after making them beg for their lives, they behead them with dull knives, sawing and hacking away, while filming the even for the glory of Allah. See, they just "do" these things. That doesn't make them barbaric people, you know, like deep down inside.

I laughed so hard when I read that nonsense that tears rolled down my cheeks. This is the kind of ding-a-ling that comes onto the site to "present" leftist views? Man, they must really be in trouble.

Rev,

Funny, isn't it, how those here in America condemn their own country and her allies for fighting evil, yet they fail to condemn those who foment the evil.

And yes, kooks like Sally are hilarious. Speaking of hilarious, I was just watching John Gibson on FOX News, and he had one of Ramsey Clarke's butt-boys, Brian Becker on. You've got to check this Becker out; he makes hate-America kooks like Sally seem like a chiorboy...

87% of Lebanese support the Hezbos. What poll is this from? Is this a John Zogby Interactive Poll?

Tina I don't know what poll was cited, but I'm sure support for Hizbollah by Lebanese has increased astronomically since the horrific bombing yesterday.

Not a good way to win friends and influence people.

B. Poster... we may not know how well this tack will work, but we do know that appeasing the terrorists has never stopped terrorism in the past. Why should it? If you want something, and find a strategy that allows you to obtain it, then you continue to use that strategy. Attack a little, hold out until a cease fire is forced upon those you attack, and western nations fall all over themselves to offer you things to make you stop attacking, even for a little while, and assume that if you attack again, that they just weren't nice enough to you, and then give you even more. It's win-win for the terrorist regimes.

keefer... you're lucky in regards to Typekey. Not only can't I get it to keep me logged on between sessions, most of the time, I can't even get it to keep me logged on until I finish typing a longer post. I'll sign in, write out a bunch and hit post, only to be told I'm not logged in, and if I THEN try to re-log in, I'm not allowed to, and often lose my post in the process (so, I don't re-sign in... I just submit it throug B4B and wait until someone's available to approve it... an especially frustrating process when you know it should post automatically through TypeKey).

LNC

Thanks for the reply to my post. It seems the terrorists attack then we, being either Israel or the US kick their butts. Then a cease fire is called. The fighting stops for a while. Then the terrorist supporting states emerge fresh from concessions even stronger than they were before and the fighting goes on. I don't know if what we are doing currently will work, however, it is clear appeasement will not work.

I think more troops should be committed to Iraq. Some security experts estimate it will take 500,000 military personel to get security under control in the near future. If we can get security under control, we will likely be respected by these people. If this happens, we will probably have a reliable ally. The problem is the Aemrican people don't understand that if we fail in Iraq, former regiem elements, al qaeda, or a combination of the two will likely come to power. These groups along with their communist allies are a survival threat to the US. The gravity of the situation needs to be adequately explained to the Aemrican people. Then they would probably be willing to make the committment necessary to get this done.

Since the American people are not willing to make the committment, the best we can do is to provide support for Israel. When they succeed in Lebanon, this will likely have a ripple effect that will help out in Iraq.

Ash

Free press in the Arab world is virtually unknown. These people are not presented both sides of an issue. There governments will not allow it. As such, this poll is not surprising.

Yo wingnuts,
Exactly whose head did Hezbollah cut off with a dull knife? I think you are getting your brown people mixed up.
This new conjecture that the bombing was staged is probably the most shameless and dastardly use of "spin" that I've seen or heard.
Actually, if you apply the same timeline to WWII and 911 you'd probably notice that we had already WON WWII in the time we've spent muddling about the M.E.
But wait -- I just write stuff like that because I hate America and Israel.
The jury is not still out on the Iraq fiasco -- as Tom Friedman noted the other day: "It's all over but the killing.
I love the sniveling of neocons in the morning -- it looks like VICTORY!

But wait -- I just write stuff like that because I hate America and Israel.

Now, didn't you feel better getting that off your chest? Truth is a marvelous liberator. You should do it more often - I mean when the meds let you.

I love the sniveling...

Back to your meds. That's not sniveling. That is us laughing at you and your rag-tag band of idiots and fools. And we are laughing at you, for you are a thing of great humor: mouth all moving but nothing but fecal matter exuding powered by a head full of air and heart full of hate. We do wonder what will happen, though, when your minders catch up with you and get you back in custody. Will they make you wear those Depends again?