Do you have any evidence that Iraq's WMD's were originally from France and Russia? Or is it just a wild accusation on your part?

Wasn't Oil for Food enough to make France and Russia want to hold up the Iraq invasion?

Just thought that I would point out a factual error in the post: (from wikipedia->Chemical Weapons)

* The Japanese used mustard gas and the recently-developed blister agent Lewisite against Chinese troops. During these attacks, the Japanese also employed biological warfare by intentionally spreading cholera, dysentery, typhoid, bubonic plague, and anthrax. As of 2005, 60 years after the end of the war, canisters that were abandoned by Japan in their hasty retreat are still being dug up in construction sites, causing many injuries and deaths.

* In 1944, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the senior Islamic religious authority of the Palestinian Arabs and close ally of Adolf Hitler, sponsored an unsuccessful chemical warfare assault on the Jewish community in Palestine. Five parachutists were supplied with maps of Tel Aviv, canisters of a German–manufactured "fine white powder," and instructions from the Mufti to dump chemicals into the Tel Aviv water system. District police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi later recalled, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers." [5]

* The Nazis used the insecticide Zyklon B, which contains hydrogen cyanide, to kill large numbers of Jews and other victims in concentration camps such as Auschwitz and Majdanek during the Holocaust.

That was just in WWII.

Georgia,

The Japanese reference is something that I'll have to check out - but the Grand Mufti would probably be trying to use biological agents in a terrorist attack, while the use of poison gas in the Holocaust wasn't warfare.

I'll stick by my statement - since WWI, only Russia and Saddam used chemical weapons in wafare.

Three years later and you are still trying to justify Bush's Blunder in Iraq. Truly pathetic.

We should've never invaded and occupied Iraq. We are paying the price now in American lives (not to mention about 50,000 Iraqi civilian lives ... which the Bushbots will never acknowledge) and treasure. This is entirely the fault of Bush/Cheney and the rest of the Neo-Cons. You reap what you sow and all of this blood is on your hands. I hope you are proud.

The weapons don't exist now and Bush knew it all along. But he played into your fear and your perverted idea of patriotism after 9/11 and you took the bait, hook line and sinker.

Maf,

The liberation of Iraq received all the justification it ever needed prior to the actual liberation - what you should be thinking about is the substance of the post.

As far as can be determined, every intelligence agency in the world which looked at the situation came to the conclusion that Saddam had large stockpiles of WMD. While intelligence estimates frequently have mistakes in them - that being the nature of secret intelligence: you can't possibly get the full story - they don't make mistakes of the magnitude you on the left insist they made. What I mean is that intelligence agencies don't say that large quantities of something are somewhere when there are none of that thing at all. Whether Saddam had one ton or ten tons of WMDs isn't really the issue - the issue is that he certainly had some. Our big question: where did they go?

There have been reports in middle eastern media that large convoys of trucks travelled from Iraq to Syria in the weeks prior to the liberation - Syria and Saddam's Iraq were, to say the least, not exactly great friends. In fact, they were deadly enemies, in spite of both being Baathist dictatorships. Saddam wouldn't have been sending just anything to Syria and, indeed, he may have intended to send nothing to those deadly enemies of his regime (lost in the shuffle is how Syria backed Iran strongly during the Iran-Iraq War...).

It is known that of Saddam's WMD programs, a good deal of the basic materials and know-how were of Russian origin - and what wasn't Russian was German and French. It would not be in the interest of any of those nations - and especially Russia - for the United States to obtain WMD and WMD-related materials in Iraq which clearly came from those three nations.

The reason I peg Russia as a likely party to the removal of Saddam's WMDs is the fact that Russia helped a lot in the WMD programs, and has long been aligned with both nations - meaning that they would know who to see in both countries to get in to Iraq and get the WMDs to Syria.

It is a lot of speculation - and the hope is that Russia just reclaimed their own and Saddam's WMDs are relatively safely in Russian custody...but they may also be in Syria, and that is worrisome.

It's a miracle! Chems and bios with an infinite shelf life! Man, those terrists can really move heaven and earth!

Maf53 said, "We should've never invaded and occupied Iraq. We are paying the price now in American lives (not to mention about 50,000 Iraqi civilian lives..."

While in another thread Third Eye Open said, "We smiled and patted ourselves on the back as 500,000 children starved to death at the hands of our collective punishment of Iraqi citizens due to sanctions..."

The UN sanctions were in place on Saddam's Iraq for 12 years. It's been three years since the Iraq invasion. Over the next 9 years, the Bush Administration will save the lives of over 450,000 Iraqi children now that Iraq is free and the UN sanctions are a horrible memory. On these grounds alone, the Iraq War was justified. What were you saying about blood, maf53? You would have left Saddam and those UN sanctions in place. Oceans of Iraqi blood would have continued to flow if Saddam's Baa'thist regime were still in power in Iraq.

Iraqi WMD Shipments to Syria. "...Hizbollah, Iran and Syria meeting to work out ways and means of keeping up the fight against Israel..."-MN

Ok. So, what does the US do about this? What are we waiting for a WMD strike on Israel by Iran or by its proxy army Hezbollah?

This is nothing but rumor and speculation. The source of this information is an Iraqi opposition source. Given that the Iraqi opposition has been repeatedly found to be liars, (Remember those mobile biological weapons labs?) it seems foolish to put much credence in this 'report'.

Furthermore, Look at the date of this report, July 13 2003, at just about the time when the proverbial s**t was hitting the fan because no WMDs were found. This was most likely a disinformation response to the growing realization that there were no WMDs, and that the Iraqi opposition had lied to the US. This is probably nothing more than a CYA report by Iraqi opposition desperate to retain US favor in a bid to be installed as the new Iraqi government.

Incidentally, if this was true, and Iraq sent a convoy of 50 trucks across the Syrian border moments before we invaded, don't you think the US would have caught this through satellite or spy plane photography? If they did, don't you think they would have acted? Why didn't they?

If they didn't see this alleged convoy, it would probably be because they weren't watching the border. Wouldn't this in itself be a massive failure of the Bush adminstration?

You're grasping at straws here, Mark. The rest of the world accepts that the WMDs simply weren't there, maybe you should too.

What were you saying about blood, maf53?

No no no no! The numbers you cite were all made up by Karl Rove. And even if Saddam was murdering his own people, heck, they are his own people and he's the ruler. Not our business. And the Oil For Food? So what if we allowed him to sell enough oil to feed his people and he took the money to build up his military and pay terrorists instead? So what if as a result of that tens of thousands of children died? Not our business. Nah. We don't give two hoots in Hell for all those innocent Iraqis that Saddam murdered. Nor do we care that he was funding terrorist attacks. No should we have cared that the evidence, still being revealed, indicates he DID have WMDs. See that's just an excuse we are using to justify the war, because, like, Karl Rove and Halliburton have ordered us to defend it so they can rule the world and get all that free oil. Where have you been, son? Don't you get it?

And who cares if the sanctions were soon to expire and the no-fly zones eliminated allowing Saddam's air force to bomb Kurds in the North and Shiites in the South? Its his country. He can do what he wants. Wake up!

Rev/Freedom,

"500,000 children starved" not to mention all the mass graves but those things dont matter when BDS is involved. Maf doesnt care about those people because it wasnt on TV...they didnt exist. Folks like maf, co and congressive exist in their own cognitivly disconnected universe where they use the deaths of people as nothing more than a tool to support their warped reality. One day in the future their history will make for an interesting study of mental illness.

Congential Idiot says

"It's a miracle! Chems and bios with an infinite shelf life!"

Chemical weapons, particularly the skin blister agent "mustard", have a notoriously long shelf life and indeed such shells derived from the first world war continue to be discovered and require destruction and disposal. US and Russian weapons currently being destroyed by OPCW that were manufactured years ago and are predicted to have a residual shelf life of at least a further ten years. In Iraq shells containing mustard were discovered in August 1997, which were manufactured in the late 1980s, and were found to contain mustard of 98% purity. Iraq deployed three biological agents in weapons in 1991.

# Anthrax spores have a half life of decades,
# Aflatoxin at least ten years.
# Smallpox, a suspected agent within its arsenal, has a shelf life of decades.

According to UNMOVIC's Working Document of March 6, 2003:

Iraq primarily filled 155-mm projectiles [the same caliber as the IED in question] with high purity Mustard that remained stable during long-term storage. However, Iraq also provided some information and documents on the development and tests of 155-mm binary nerve agent (Sarin and Cycolosarin) projectiles. UNSCOM found several examples of these munitions at the Muthanna State Establishment. Iraq has provided a number of explanations regarding the disposition of approximately 550 unaccounted for Mustard filled 155-mm projectiles. UNSCOM, having determined that the Mustard . . . was likely to remain stable for a long period treated this issue as a serious matter. Iraq was developing binary chemical weapons, where the two precursor chemicals are stored separately in the same shell, and mixed to form the agent immediately before or when the shell is in flight. This approach has the dual benefit of making the issue of shelf life irrelevant and greatly increasing the safety of the sarin munitions

There is more on the subject but once again Congential Idiot rears his extremely stupid head.

Maf...3 years later and every time evidence comes up showing Iraq had WMD all you do is dismiss it?

Exactly who is the one being pathetic here? It appears to be you!

What amazes me is that these liBS constantly REPEAT that Hussein's removal was not justified.

BUT, they all lined up to defend Clinton's removal of Melosevic.

Melosevic did not attack us. Melosevic did not threaten us. Melosevic was contained. AND WHAT'S WORSE, WE STILL HAVE TROOPS IN THE BALKANS!!!! WHERE WAS THE EXIT STRATEGY??? (Sound familiar liBS? - why did you not apply those to Melosevic and protested Clinton?)

Their answer? Melosevic was a brutal dictator who killed tens of thousands. Actual numbers showed that Clinton exaggerated the intelligence. Hussein was a brutal dictator who killed tens of thousands. BUT according the the liBS, he did not needed to be removed.

In liB's eyes, the Iraqis are not important enough to liberate.....when there is a non-liberal in the White House.

Bullshit walks liBS, get steppin'.

Tired...it's about one thing and one thing only.

They hate George Bush with every bone in their body. EVERY CELL in their body. So if he came out on television today and said the Sun would rise tomorrow they would blast him for that as well and argue it isn't really the Sun, but a magical ball of fire but not actually the Sun.

It's about Bush, and NOTHING more. If they get control of the House they will not care ONE IOTA about the American people and will start impeachment hearings almost immediately (of this same group ripped on Clinton impeachment hearings as well).

They hate Bush...that's what this is about.

TOLBS,

GREAT F*CKING POST!

Libs = Hypocrites = Fascists

Why do righties think "congenital idiot" is such a funny put-down? Do you realize what you are implying? Are you really that insensitive to those with birth defects? Do you think Down's Syndrome is funny? Cystic fibrosis must be a real hoot to you. Do you think you are somehow morally superior because you were born to parents with good genetics?

Apparently so. Good for you.

Zoot, so now you are a fan of the UN are you? Hans Blix is one of your heroes now, is he? Very convenient, quoting pre-war documents that called for further inspections. Now that we have FULL access to virtually EVERYTHING in Iraq, we know there was no program, we know there were no nukes, we know the UN was right to call for more inspections BEFORE making a horrible mistake bombing Iraq.

Very convenient.

Awww, I've gone and been politically incorrect and been insensitive according to Ms. Manners. Actually a close friend of 30 years has a downs child, great kid and a great mom. A CF sufferer I've known, whos been beating it back for 30+ Very convenient, quoting pre-war documents that called for further inspectiyears, is also a friend. I doubt they would have a problem with my description after reading your mental flotsam.

"Do you think you are somehow morally superior because you were born to parents with good genetics?"

I didnt say that nor imply it. I'm sorry if in your limited reading comphrension thats what you thought I'd implied. I thought I was clear but I suppose I can be more blunt...your an idiot. Your thinking is sloppy, your reasoning is negligible and your comprehension is minimal. Hows that?

"Zoot, so now you are a fan of the UN are you?"

No I'm not a fan of the UN, we ought to get the hell out asap, probably a big suprise to you huh. I'll type more slowly so you will understand. I wasnt addressing whether he had them or not in my reply, I dont really care. You said "It's a miracle! Chems and bios with an infinite shelf life!"

I posted info that clearly shows your statement to be just another idiotic one in the long history of saying stupid things while posting here.

"Now that we have FULL access to virtually EVERYTHING in Iraq, we know there was no program, we know there were no nukes, we know the UN was right to call for more inspections"

You dont know sh**, no one really does yet and if any error is to be made I want it to be on the side of caution.

"more inspections BEFORE making a horrible mistake bombing Iraq."

Yea, the 80,000 people a year that were dissappearing in Iraq under Sadam were happy to do it so you could be faux morally superior. Have you no decency. Have you not seen the pictures of the children in mass graves still holding their teddy bears. The pics of women holding their child with blood running out of their mouths after a chem attack. To support your BDS you are more than willing to ignore that which does not support you warped sense of morality. Your selective sensitivities and moral blindness is astounding. You are a coward.

Somehoe this line got mixed up.

"A CF sufferer I've known, whos been beating it back for 30+ Very convenient, quoting pre-war documents that called for further inspectiyears, is also a friend. I doubt they would have a problem with my description after reading your mental flotsam."

Should be.

""A CF sufferer I've known, whos been beating it back for 30+ years, is also a friend. I doubt they would have a problem with my description after reading your mental flotsam."

Didnt want to confuse you. I suppose I should proofread.

Somehoe this line got mixed up.

"A CF sufferer I've known, whos been beating it back for 30+ Very convenient, quoting pre-war documents that called for further inspectiyears, is also a friend. I doubt they would have a problem with my description after reading your mental flotsam."

Should be.

""A CF sufferer I've known, whos been beating it back for 30+ years, is also a friend. I doubt they would have a problem with my description after reading your mental flotsam."

Didnt want to confuse you. I suppose I should proofread.

maf, you and your fellow travellers keep coming up with numbers for the so-called "civilian casualties" in Iraq. Of course, there is no real source for these various numbers, other than Air America, but y'all sure love tossin them around.

So, maf---define "civilian". How many of those "civlians" were, for example, men between 16-30, who happened to not be wearing uniforms? Does that make them civilians? For that matter, how many of the "non-civilians" WERE wearing uniforms? But how, exactly, can you tell who is and who is not a civilian? You neorads seem to have way to tell---please share.

How about women who support terrorist attacks? Are they "civilians"? Why? Would you say they are "civilians" because they, too, are in "civilian" clothing? How would that make them any different from combatants? What are the criteria? Define it all for us, please.

What if a woman wants to kill all infidels and helps shelter, feed, and then hide combatants? If a bomb or rocket lands on her house after it has been identified as the source of attacks, at what point does she cross the line from "civilian" to "enemy combatant"? Does she have to have a gun in her hand? Does she have to have actually built a bomb?

What if that woman uses her own children as a shield for the adult male combatants? You know, those brave and noble MEN who routinely hide behind the skirts of women and the bodies of children. If they are killed, who is repsonsible? Those trying to elimniate the sources of attacks, or those who callously chose to put those children in harm's way and thereby set them up as corollary targets?

What if the decision to expose those innocent children to violent death was made because of a belief that dying, even as a child, in a war with infidels, is a pathway to heaven? What if it was a conscious decision by the persons most charged with the protection of those children---the parents?

In other words, the claims of so-called "civilian casualties" are garbage. No one knows how many people have been killed in Iraq. Beyond that, no one knows how many of those adults were actually innocent non-combatants. And beyond that, no one knows how many of the children ACTUALLY killed (as opposed to those CLAIMED to have been killed) were killed because their 'caregivers' made the cold-blooded choice to put them in harm's way because that met some personal agenda of their own.

Yet on the other hand, as Zoot has pointed out, you seem very comfortable with the many thousands of children who were ritualistically tortured and then murdered, either for pleasure or to torture their parents by making them watch or to punish adults who had somehow offended Sadaam. You appear to be much more upset by a child killed by a bomb after his "mother" decided to put him in harm's way by using him as a human shield for a cowardly killer than by a four-year-old girl raped by a dozen men while her parents were forced to watch, and then hacked to death.

Zoot hit it on the head---your selective sensitivies are disgusting.

However, if you prefer to boast that your stupidity is acquired rather than congenital, I won't argue with that. Quite simply, I have known many who have been born with some kind or degee of intellectual limitation, and none have been so resolutely and determinedly incapable of rational thought as you, so I will go along with your argument that you had to work hard to get where you are, and genetics probably did not play much of a role.

Evidence? Yes, it is. Highly speculative and circumstantial though.

On a side note....Wasn't it agreed to quash all this name calling crap. You can get your points across much better without the insults.

"Libs = Hypocrites = Fascists"

"Congential Idiot"

"Truly pathetic."

...your stupidity is acquired...

morphie, please don't take quotes out of context. I did not say "..your stupidity is acquired." I said "... If you prefer to boast that your stupidity is acquired rather than congenital, I won't argue with that."

The whine was about the non-PC comment about congenital stupidity. I merely offered an alternative source for such noted and documented stupidity.

And being wrong is not proof of stupidity. Insisting on being wrong is. I went on to say....

"Quite simply, I have known many who have been born with some kind or degee of intellectual limitation, and none have been so resolutely and determinedly incapable of rational thought as you, so I will go along with your argument that you had to work hard to get where you are, and genetics probably did not play much of a role."

Key words: Resolutely and determinedly. In other words, some choose stupidity and work hard to cultivate it.