Our tax dollars at work (you pick the institution UN or Iraq) a Jewish free Mideast. Thanks to Bush.

Mark - I think you are dead on in your reading of Maliki. However, what you ignore about Annan's remarks is that Israel bombed UN personnel, and Hezbollah didn't.

Another major car wreck on the Bush's "roadmap" to peace.

How much failure will it take before you at least --at the very least-- question Mr. Bush and Republican policies?

Are you so confounded with idol worship that you cannot pause for a moment and question what causes this mayhem?

Wade

Israel bombed UN personnel, and Hezbollah didn't.

Email was received from one of the UN observers before he was killed that he did not believe the attacks on the UN position were intentional.

Hezbollah has no airplanes, how could they bomb anything? If Hezbollah was doing anything, they were (and still are) trying to use UN positions as shields - just like they're doing with civilian locations and people.

Israel has apologized, calling it an accident. The accusation from Annan that it was intentional was a rare view behind his phony facade into what he really thinks about Israel or waiting to find out how the incident happened. Guilty until proven innocent. Typical Annan. Typical UN.

Also, Maliki knows that if the US were to cut and run, he would have to contend with Iran, Syria and his own terrorists. Watch what happens as threats to his government begin to lessen.

I can't wait until Kofi Annan's term ends...

Yo Trouble: If the US cuts and runs, Maliki's only option would be to be hung from a lamp post or to flee Iraq.

And Reverend, I have to agree with your take on the UN post bombing. Hezbollah was using it as a shield. In my opinion, however, the IDF's determination to blast the terrorists over-rode any concern about the UN Post unfortunately. The UN should have cleared out when the fighting broke out.

And Mark: Regarding your crazed statement "While I'd like to see an Iraqi army on its way to Damascus to turn out the Baathists there". I presume you actually mean the IDF, not Iraqi army. Whatever, come on, have you not learned anything about the futility of trying to force democracy dowm Muslim throats?

Mark-

Were you expecting as Shi'ite, elected by other Shi'ites, running a mojority Shi'ite country to condemn a Shi'ite organization for attacking Jews?

Let's not forget that the Koran is the root of this whole conflict. Muslims believe that once a parcel of land comes under Muslim control, it cannot leave muslim control, and, if it does, they have to put it back under Muslim control.

Until we acknowledge that and act accordingly, we can't win the peace.

Redirect that last comment at Barney, I'm so used to disagreeing with Mark...

Georgia Frawg

You are quite right. We don't seem to be able to have a frank discussion about the true nature of Islam.

Canuckguy

I think you may be spot on. Unfortunately for western culture to survive we will either need to remake the culture of Islamic Extremism or we will need to find a way to contain it. Now that they have allied themselves with Russia and China they become even more dangerous.

In order to remake their culture, we will likely need some type of strong man who can move them gradually towards represebtative democracy. Hopefully the elected leaders can serve in this capacity. If we lack the resolve to remake their culture, we will need to find a way to contain them. At a minimum, unrestricted immigration of Muslims to western nations should end.

Georgia Frawg

You are quite right. We don't seem to be able to have a frank discussion about the true nature of Islam.

Posted by: B.Poster

Hear! Hear!
:)

Let's not forget that the Koran is the root of this whole conflict.

When I was in grade school (back in the '50s), our simplistic teaching of history told the story of one religious war after another. It was hard to even grasp that those kinds of things ever occurred - and all the examples were from centuries before.

I never thought that I would be seeing the replay of many of them now. WWI and WWII were mostly about imperialism - the lust for conquest. Starting with Korea it was between Communism and Capitalism. And now we're back to the religious wars. I am convinced this is some kind of cycle.

I never studied world history seriously so I am not sure what stopped the last batch of religious wars, but I would bet that one side defeated the other in an abject and total fashion. Perhaps that is the answer now. Smart bombs, avoiding casualties, respecting religions that have sworn to destroy you -- they don't seem to be working very well and I am not interested in surrender.

In regards the UN being intentionally hit by Israel. I don't see the motive in Israel bombing them, but the UN outpost that was bombed was there for years, the UN called the Israeli military something like 7 times prior to tell them that bombs were getting very close, and it seems that it was a precision-guided bomb that hit the outpost.

I don't blame Annon for being pissed and saying it appeared to be an intentional hit.

Canuck,

Yeah, 'cause those Moslems just aren't suited to democracy, right?

You disgusting racist.

And I want an Iraqi army to march on Damascus, not the IDF...the Iraqis have a blood debt to settle in Syria.

Tom,

What would Israel gain by deliberately targeting a UN station? You really should think a bit about what you said.

At any rate, its the UN's own fault - what in heck are they doing there? They are supposed to be ensuring security for Israel while Hizbollah stockpiles thousands of missiles? They should have either been doing their job, or they should have been withdrawn.

"Let's not forget that the Koran is the root of this whole conflict. Muslims believe that once a parcel of land comes under Muslim control, it cannot leave muslim control, and, if it does, they have to put it back under Muslim control." Posted by: Georgia Frawg

You are correct, again, and timely. Al-Qaeda just confirmed this Islamic principle, today. Al-Qaeda also called on all Muslims to team up with Hezbollah and Hamas to destroy Israel:

Al-Zawahri calls for holy war on Israel

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Al-Qaida’s No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from “Spain to Iraq.”

In the message broadcast by Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahri, second in command to Osama bin Laden, said that al-Qaida now views “all the world as a battlefield open in front of us.”

The Egyptian-born physician said that the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah and Palestinian militants would not be ended with “cease-fires or agreements.”

“It is a jihad (holy war) for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq,” al-Zawahri said. “We will attack everywhere.” Spain was controlled by Arab Muslims for more than seven centuries until they were driven from power in 1492.

He said Arab regimes were accomplices to Israel. “My fellow Muslims, it is obvious that Arab and Islamic governments are not only impotent but also complicit ... and you are alone on the battlefield. Rely on God and fight your enemies ... make yourselves martyrs.”

He also called for the “downtrodden” throughout the world, not just Muslims, to join the battle against “tyrannical Western civilization and its leader, America.”

“Stand with Muslims in confronting this unprecedented oppression and tyranny. Stand with us as we stand with you against this injustice that was forbidden by God in his book (the Quran),” al-Zawahri said.

I don't blame Annon for being pissed and saying it appeared to be an intentional hit.

The news reports - before the email from the Canadian Colonel who was there and eventually died - indicated that Israel did not have a bomb or rocket go astray, the site was the target. And the bunker there was targeted with a precision guided bomb that is so accurate they can put one right through your living room window from 10,000 feet and flying at 500 mph. So it was not unintentional as for the target being selected and hit.

But the Colonel's email indicated that he did not believe that the targeting was Israel trying to hit UN observers, and noted they had been under fire for several days. The close proximity of their observation post and the ferocity of the fighting there, plus the fog of war where communications are less than perfect, all contributed to the mountain-top bunker being hit. Israel apparently believed that Hezbollah was using it to fire down on them or Hezbollah WAS firing from that area. The kidnapping that started this fighting two weeks ago was witnessed by the UN, they did nothing, and when it was discovered they observed it, they attempted to cover up the fact that they stood there and watched Hezbollah kill 8 Israelis and kidnap 2 more. It should not be much of a stretch to see where its highly possible that Hezbollah was on that mountain top too and the UN just stood there watching them fire down on the Israelis.

On top of all that, the Israelis told UN observers all over Lebanon that they'd better get out of the area because their safety could not be guaranteed. Add to that the fact that the UN (and that clown Kofi) should have told their teams to get out of the area. They were not there to act like football referees nor were they there to observe this war. They were there as part of UN 1559 and once the shooting started, that was a moot point. So if you want to blame someone, blame "Goofy" Annan. If he would have told his UN troops to get out of the way, they'd all be alive today.

Rev, I find it very plausible that Hezbollah was using that mountain top to fire on Isreal, and that the UN observers did nothing.

As for Maliki, he may survive a US cut/run, if he has the backing of the Shia majority and militias, something he would never get by condeming Hezbollah and Hamas.

If the Islamic extremists want to reclaim the land that they once held in Europe, there are some nations that should be very nervous, because they once held a large area, not just Spain.

And Mark, I agree, the Iraqi army would be the appropriate army to march on Syria, once Iran is not backing them.

So if you want to blame someone, blame "Goofy" Annan. If he would have told his UN troops to get out of the way, they'd all be alive today. by: Reverend Scaramonga

Has "Goofy" ordered the 2,000 UN troops to bug out, since then?

Wade said, "Are you so confounded with idol worship that you cannot pause for a moment and question what causes this mayhem?"

That's a great question, although not in the way Wade meant it. If the 1.2 billion Muslims of the world were to realize that they are worshipping an idol-Allah-then the cause of "this mayhem"-Islam-would cease to exist and there would be peace in the Middle East.

Allah-the Moon God

The Archeology of The Middle East

"As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.[..]

CONCLUSION
The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel."

Mark-

Actually, Canuck has a point.

It's not so much that they can't "handle" democracy; it is just that they have been brainwashed into believing a certain brand of Islam. When given the vote, they will vote for the rule of Sharia (Islamic Law) and thusly for their own opression. Then, the rebirth of the Taliban will be complete; it will just have a new name.

Mark Mark Mark;
I did not mean "cause those Moslems just aren't suited to democracy, right?". Don't put words in my mouth. There is a difference in my intent when I wrote: "have you not learned anything about the futility of 'trying to force democracy down Muslim throats'?" Democracy and intolerant Islam cannot co-exist. Surely you must realize that. Yeah, democracy forcing is going so well in Iraq and Afghanstan. Yeah, there are so many good examples of Muslim democratic countries. And I have to laugh at you calling me a racist when all I was doing was pointing out the obvious.

And dream on about an Iraqi army marching to Syria's capital. They cannot even handle the so-called 'dead enders' yet. Jeez, what a fool you are. The concept was so out-landish that it made sense to me you meant the IDF.

Georgia- Of the posters here you make the most sense on this issue. I think your views on it are objective, which is why they make more sense than others who are laden with ideology or emotion. Do you think we have any possibility of succeeding in bringing democracy to the Middle East?

My view is that fundamentalist Islam is anti-Democratic. Democracy needs to evolve slowly in a society, and is best served by a secular, not a religious-based government. I heard Patrick Buchanan say once that they have not evolved enough to understand or appreciate democratic values-that they are stuck in the 12th or 13th century developmentally. That is why the Bush Doctrine is a failure. Probably Saddam bothers us more than he did the Iraqis- as you say they are used to being oppressed.

Georgia Frawg,

Yes, Muslims have been brainwashed into believing Islam. But, I believe this brainwashing can be reversed through freedom and information. For instance, if Muslims learned that their god, Allah, is actually a pagan idol, then Islam itself would implode and cease to exist.

We-the West-must attack the root cause of this global war which is Islam. If we don't, then you're right, as "good Muslims" they will vote for Islamic Shari'a Law. Sunnis and Shias will continue to fight until one side ceases to exist.

Qur’an 49:9 “If two parties among the Believers fall into fighting, make peace: but if one becomes aggressive, then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies.”

The West must convince Muslims to reject Islam-or the fighting between us will never end. We must show Muslims that there is a better way to live and that way is to live in freedom and democracy.

Freedom-

There inlies the problem...

When we let Muslims vote and give them information, they will inevidably vote before they can process all of the information. That government, seeing that contra-islamist information would hurt their rule, would ban such information... and it's a slippery slope downhill.

Canuck,
Are you at all serious. "Shoving democracy down their throats" Are you completelt incapable of recognizing what they call Jihad-the idea behind that is to rid all the "infedels" who do not believe as they do-talk about shoving something down someone's throat. You are disgusting.

(via LGF)Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week

From the UN’s own press releases:

24 July 2006:

One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa. He was operated on, and his condition is now reported as stable.
*****

25 July 2006:

This morning, Hezbollah opened small arms fire at a UNIFIL convoy consisting of two armored personnel carriers (APC) on the road between Kunin and Bint Jubayl. There was some damage to the APCs, but no casualties, and the convoy was obliged to return to Kunin.

"That government, seeing that contra-islamist information would hurt their rule, would ban such information..." by: Georgia Frawg

Georgia, it's already banned by Islam. You cannot question Islam.

Questioning Islam = blasphemy = the death penalty.

The West has got to start the information campaign against Islam in the West. France, Spain, the Netherlands, much of the rest of Europe including Italy have large Muslim populations. America also has about 5 million Muslims located throughout the US, principly in Detroit, Michigan, New Jersey and Southern California. This is where the push to reject Islam must start.

Iraq has protection from the American military. This makes questioning Islam somewhat possible. We need to encourage this questioning of Islam in Iraq and elsewhere. But make no mistake about it, if a Muslim in the Middle East questions-or rejects-Islam, that Muslim/ex-Muslim will be targeted for death.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Only a fool would not have foreseen the marriage of the Sunni and the Shiite to crush the "crusader-Zionist enemy". And that is just what the Christian Right/Zionists/neo-cons are....fools. Peace

Freedom1,
You are spot on...The influx of Muslims in Europe and the US is troubling. They educate themselves in our Universities, assimilate in our society and return to their birthplaces and pretend they didn't enjoy the freedoms they were exposed too. The 9/11 hijackers certainly weren't following their teachings when they were frequenting bars and other"havens of evil" What a bunch of hypocritical zealots.

mary s...

you're right about this: "The 9/11 hijackers certainly weren't following their teachings when they were frequenting bars and other'havens of evil'"

One of the problems is, that they realized they weren't following the teachings, and in their twisted minds, the guilt they felt by doing so could only be alleviated by destroying those 'havens of evil' or, even better, the society that allowed them.

Placing the blame elsewhere lets them believe that they hold no responsibility for their own choices that they deem wrong.

Mary Mary
Quite contrary:

You misunderstand as well. In the religious frame of mind that the majority of middle eastern Muslims seem to be in, it would be like force feeding democracy down their throats from their viewpoint. I said it before, fundamentalist Islam, which, as far as I am concerned, is followed by the majority of middle eastern Muslims, is not compatible with democracy. I think most bloggers here would NOT disagree with that. First I am a racist according to Mad Mark, now I am disgusting according to you. So how do my opinions on this issue make me disgusting.
And finally, I clearly recognize the danger of the Jihadists. And that they are masters of force feeding their views. No argument there. We should have coffee sometime(lol)

LNC,
Excellent points I failed to identify, let me add that the promise of "72 virgins" is stupifying to me when one acknowledges the treatment of Muslim women, contempt and abuse.

Canuck,
If I misunderstood I apologize. When I referred to you as disgusting it was because my understanding of your position is that we, the U.S., as leaders of the free world were somehow more contemptible than the muslim extremists and their desire to spread Islam. As for coffee I like Turkish blends, but will only drink it the states LOL

The 9/11 hijackers certainly weren't following their teachings when they were frequenting bars and other"havens of evil" What a bunch of hypocritical zealots.-Posted by: mary s

LOL!
:)

...let me add that the promise of "72 virgins" is stupifying to me when one acknowledges the treatment of Muslim women, contempt and abuse.
by: mary s

Seriously! It's disgusting!
:(

Until we acknowledge that and act accordingly, we can't win the peace.

If, by "act accordingly," you mean we fight an aggressive war and blow the bastards up, I agree with you completely. However, if you mean we should give them back "their" land, I find you full of Barney...I mean, full of poop.

Scar, note how the first few troll posts, after more facts come available, turn out to be wrong. Wade is famous for this; he must sit at his computer all day, waiting to display his stupidity.

Get a job, Wade...

Wade-Steve-Tom AKA-Moe, Curly and Shep

Wade-Steve-Tom AKA Moe, Larry and Shep

Wade-Steve-Tom AKA Moe, Larry and Shep

O Keefer... you know I want those bastards to fit in a matchbox...

They want all of us nonbelievers to die... I say to them: "After you..."

O Keefer... you know I want those bastards to fit in a matchbox...

They want all of us nonbelievers to die... I say to them: "After you..."

Mary, that would be Moe, Larry, and Shemp. You're correct, however, in your assertion that they're the Three Stooges.

Keefer,
Nice to meet you-I'm new to the blog.Yes you are correct I meant Shemp, never was quite sure how they were pronouncing it on the show! Mary

"Let's not forget that the Koran is the root of this whole conflict. Muslims believe that once a parcel of land comes under Muslim control, it cannot leave muslim control, and, if it does, they have to put it back under Muslim control." Posted by: Georgia Frawg

No Georgia, this isn't a matter of Koranic law - it is simply a matter of human justice. What would you do if you and all of your friends, relatives, and neighbors were suddenly displaced from the land you had lived in for generations? If you resisted that, would that mean you are motivated by Muslim beliefs, or a simple universal sense of fairness?

Aarontime,

Muslims conquered and held Spain for 700 years. Muslims were driven out of Spain (al-Andalus)in 1492.

So you want to give Spain back to the Muslims. I think some of the Spaniards won't like that.

"So you want to give Spain back to the Muslims. I think some of the Spaniards won't like that."

huh? I am well versed in Spanish history, but your statement is the very definition of non-sequitur.

Mark -

As has been pointed out in other posts here, that UN outpost had been there for years, and its position was well known. Furthermore, UN commanders repeatedly alerted the Israelis to their position throughout the day. That the Israelis ended up landing a precision-guided bomb right on top of the UN position may indeed have been a mistake, yes. But doesn't that in itself demonstrate the indiscrimate, grossly negligent nature of the Israeli bombing campaign? I meean, if a well known UN position in close contact with Israeli field commanders cannot avoid becoming collateral damage, what hope do innocent Labanese civilians have, who do not have the protections inherent in being members of the world's premier international organization? If the Israelis hit the established UN outpost, doesn't that show that they really don't care too much what they hit in Lebanon? What does such callous indifference indicate about teh Israelis?

Aaron,

What Freedom is pointing out is that the Moslems were forcibly displaced from Spain...is Spain to go back to Islam? Do Moslems have a legit gripe about Spain 500 years later? When does "legit gripe" expire? Does it ever? Also, since the Christians were forcibly displaced from, oh, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Turkey, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco by the Moslems, do we have a legit gripe?

And as for the UN post - my understanding is that some UN posts are a literal arms length away from Hizbollah posts...if this is the case, and I believe it is, then anyone who stands that close to a terrorist has only himself to blame when the terrorist gets hit.

Georgia and Canuck,

Ummm...in Iraq and Afghanistan, when they voted, they didn't vote for a Sharia-law government.

You guys have to get the blinders off...stop stereotyping the Moslems.

Ummm Mark...

While Iraq didn't vote for a sharia government, there are a few things to keep in mind...

It would be kind of hard to impose Sharia when Americans are the predominant military power in the country.

Iraq did elect a majority that not only seems to be against our objectives in the Middle East (condemnation of Israel while not condemning Hizbullah), it is also supported by the theocratic Iranian government. There are also Shia groups run out of the Israeli police that perpetuate the sectarian violence by killing Sunnis.

In Afghanistan, the Warlords in the south have more power than the elected government; they are also now one of the largest exporters of opium in the world (not really relevant, but interesting nonetheless).

Some of the countries that have democratically elected governments (or large minorities) consisting of terrorist or hardline groups are: Iran, Lebanon, and Egypt.

Think of this logically Mark...

You are a conservative Christian who wants laws in your government passed that represent Christian beliefs; why would you expect conservative Muslims to be any different?

Another thing, the King of Saudi Arabia recently wanted to allow women to drive. It was public pressure that kept him from doing so.

Think of this logically Mark...

Must be why when the Shah was the ruler in Iran they were so into Sharia. Wait... But how about Turkey? Hmmmm. Pakistan?... There are countries in the Middle East that run the gamut from pretty democratic to oppressively Sharia controlled.

But it is not universal that Muslim means Sharia. And the more freedom and democracy these countries experience, the more difficult it is to get them to bend to the will of the Mullahs. Why do you think the hard-over Mullahs are preaching so much hatred for Western ideas and culture? It threatens their control over their own people.

Think of Nazi Germany. Did everyone in that country back Hitler? No way. Some even tried to assassinate him. But the knuckled under to his overwhelming force and his SS troops and Gestapo. As his strength weakened his control of the population folded like a house of cards. This is the same old story.

Georgia,

I expect the Iraqi and Afghan governments to reflect the desires of the population - and, yes, that means a very strong infusion of Islam into their laws. What of it? It is what they choose, and as long as people aren't being stoned to death in a sports arena because their ankles showed in public, then who are you and I to complain about how they conduct their own affairs?

A democracy in Islam doesn't mean that Baghdad University will have a Transgendered Studies Department - a democracy in Islam just means that the local pols will be beholden to their constituents - who might very well want some very strict, Islam-inspired laws on public morality, but who will also want schools, roads, jobs, health care, etc...there isn't much time or will, in a democracy, for Jihad.

The Hamas government is held up as the worst thing that can happen in Moslem democracy - and it is pretty bad, but it also seems a bit divided and it does appear that the kidnapping which started this new battle wasn't something 100% agreed upon by all of Hamas.

Whatever the case may be, the millenium will not start tomorrow unless God, Himself, wills it so - meanwhile, we can only do our best, and as a conservative, a Christian and an American, I can only work for democratic government around the world.

Aarontime,

For someone with a Jewish handle its ironic that you are a muslim apologist. Are you a self hating Jew?

Let's face it, the UN had no business being there, they haven't done their job for the past 6 years in Lebanon.

As unarmed "observers" they have basically served as human shields for Hizbullah, which was launching missles in and around their position, as well three other UN positions.

The UN has become witting or unwitting accomplices to muslim terrorists. The link that Scar posted the other day showing a video of armed Hamas gunmen using UN ambulances is testament to their duplicity in this affair.

Kofi Annan is an embrassment and the should be tarred feathered and run out of town on a rail.

The League of Nations was disbanded when it became disfunctional. The UN has long ago passed that point. It should be disbanded and a new organization of democratically elected governments should take its place. Enough of giving a platform to tin horn dictators and terrorists.

"When you are in a den of jackels, there is no point to seeking consensus" Daniel Patrick Moynihan