Comments are fixed - sorry 'bout that.

Since Latin Americans are heavily religious, perhaps you could just flood the country with more Mexicans. I predict a brownish, very christian country by 2050 with white heathens making up, oh, say 10% of the population.

I predict a brownish, very christian country by 2050

Even though I suspect you don't mean a word you're saying, there is still a defect. Leftists have no racial prejudice about religion. They attack them all. So the ploy would not work.

Organized Religion has oppressed more people, been the cause of more wars and conflict and held back progress more than anything else.

While there are far worse offenders than the Catholic Church where human rights are concerned, she does bear some blame in promoting unjust policies. The stand the Vatican takes against birth control is simply criminal. The outspoken anti-gay rhetoric is also beyond excuse.

The Church - any church - needs to be strictly separated from the state and totally denied any government access. Any religion needs to argue its case on the merits in the public sqaure and nothing more.

They should not even be tax exempt.

I am guaranteed the right to freedom of religion, and more importantly freedom *FROM* religion. If you think it is a "war" to uphold these rights than Bring it On!

Wade

The "war" against Christianity comes in response to the Bush "war" against Science.

- Stifling scientific evidence of the dangers of global warming.

- Influencing the FDA over the Plan B pill.

- "Packing scientific advisory panels with ideologues and imposing controls on collaboration with foreign researchers."

- Ideological approach to sex education.

- Bush's zealot cronies

- "Intelligent Design."

And on and on it goes.

The "war" against Christianity comes in response to the Bush "war" against Science.

No need to lie. This attack on religion has been going on since at least the 1960's. Bush wasn't even out of college until 1968.

Perhaps I should clarify - the *recent* "war" against Christianity.

Glad to see you don't dispute Bush's "war" against Science.

Glad to see you don't dispute Bush's "war" against Science.

- Stifling scientific evidence of the dangers of global warming.

Lie. Scientific evidence is published in scientific journals over which he no control. Unless you're talking about the fact that he laughed out loud at that screwball Al Gore.

- Influencing the FDA over the Plan B pill.

Influencing? That's a good one. The FDA works for him. All he has to do is ORDER them to do what he wants. See, they're in the executive branch and he is the chief exec...oh, this is probably all too tough for you.

- "Packing scientific advisory panels with ideologues and imposing controls on collaboration with foreign researchers."

Probably lies, distortions,and hyperbole on your part, but I don't care to investigate and you provide no proof except your words which I have little reason to believe.

- Ideological approach to sex education.

Can't have that now, can we? No need for morals or ethics. Much more important to teach junior high students about condoms. You call that science? Hahahaha!

- Bush's zealot cronies

Of course you libs are all studied, measured, calm and collected wise people with zero axes to grind and no fanatics at all. None. Hahaha!

- "Intelligent Design."

Not enough information. What about it? I don't happen to buy the concept, but I am an atheist. But I don't see saying "Intelligent Design" to have any impact on science at all. Methinks your real problem is an unrelenting fear of religion and people who believe in one. That must might be a weakness in YOU, not them.

But all in all, I DO dispute Bush's "war" against Science. I have not seen it. What I have seen his his insistence on some ethics - another word unfamiliar to liberals.

Mark-

It seems to me that we have differing perceptions of what constitutes a "war" on Christianity (at least at the American level).

I admit that christians across the world are being persecuted... as are secularists in different parts of the world (the muslim parts especially).

But lets talk about America:

I have a pretty free-market approach to freedom of religion. I have no problem with people of faith practicing their chosen religion in private or public; I even have no problem with people evangelizing at me (provided they stop when asked). I don't even mind if they buy billboards on the side of the highway (ever drive down GA route 316?).

If religious people want to use their own time and resources to propagate their beliefs (as long as said actions don't break the law) and build monuments to their God du jour, that's fine by me.

However, I do not believe that taxpayer money should be used to build religious monuments or be used for religious purposes. There is nothing in the constitution that says that the government should fund religion or the constrution of religious monuments (kind of like your argument against ESC).

Despite your sentiment that this is "your" (assumingly christian) country, it isn't "your" country, for it does not belong to christians. As the first amendment says, your being an American isn't contingent on your religious beliefs. America doesn't belong to christians. It belongs to Jews, Hindus, Christians, Athiests, Agnostics; it belongs to us... Americans.

--- "Lie. Scientific evidence is published in scientific journals over which he no control."

Ever hear of NASA?

"'In my more than three decades in government, I have never seen anything approaching the degree to which information flow from scientists to the public has been screened and controlled as it is now,' James Hansen told a University of Iowa audience."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6341451/

--- "The FDA works for him. All he has to do is ORDER them to do what he wants."

Pay attention to the following words: independence, and integrity. I know they are tough concepts to grasp.

"Von Eschenbach [acting commisioner] could demonstrate his commitment to the FDA's independence and scientific integrity and help restore staff morale and waning public credibility by stopping the rulemaking process and approving access to Plan B for women 17 and older."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022801027.html

--- "Probably lies, distortions,and hyperbole on your part"

Again, read, and learn:

"More than 4,000 scientists, including 48 Nobel laureates, have joined a call for 'restoration of scientific integrity in federal policymaking,' charging that the Bush administration is packing scientific advisory panels with ideologues and imposing controls on collaboration with foreign researchers, a scientists' group said yesterday."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37968-2004Jul8.html

--- "No need for morals or ethics. Much more important to teach junior high students about condoms."

Oh, I forgot - Republicans don't have any sex. Newsflash: teenagers do, regardless of the "morals" you try to impose upon them. What, no sex before marriage, Rev?

--- "But I don't see saying "Intelligent Design" to have any impact on science at all."

More so than any of your ridiculous statements, this one speaks the most to your ignorance.

How about Bush saying that "intelligent design" should be taught alongside evolution when teaching about the creation of life? Pandering to the extreme right wing idealogues, ya think?

Letter from Joe Repya, Lieutenant Colonel, U. S. Army, 101st Airborne Division

"I'm Tired"

Two weeks ago, as I was starting my sixth month of duty in Iraq, I was forced to return to the USA for surgery for an injury I sustained prior to my deployment. With luck, I'll return to Iraq to finish my tour.

I left Baghdad and a war that has every indication that we are winning, to return to a demoralized country much like the one I returned to in 1971 after my tour in Vietnam. Maybe it's because I'll turn 60 years old in just four months, but I'm tired:

I'm tired of spineless politicians, both Democrat and Republican who lack the courage, fortitude, and character to see these difficult tasks through.

I'm tired of the hypocrisy of politicians who want to rewrite history when the going gets tough.

I'm tired of the disingenuous clamor from those that claim they 'Support the Troops' by wanting them to 'Cut and Run' before victory is achieved.

I'm tired of a mainstream media that can only focus on car bombs and casualty reports because they are too afraid to leave the safety of their hotels to report on the courage and success our brave men and women are having on the battlefield.

I'm tired that so many Americans think you can rebuild a dictatorship into a democracy over night.

I'm tired that so many ignore the bravery of the Iraqi people to go to the voting booth and freely elect a Constitution and soon a permanent Parliament.

I'm tired of the so called 'Elite Left' that prolongs this war by giving aid and comfort to our enemy, just as they did during the Vietnam War.

I'm tired of antiwar protesters showing up at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. A family who's loved ones gave their life in a just and noble cause, only to be cruelly tormented on the funeral day by cowardly protesters is beyond shameful.

I'm tired that my generation, the Baby Boom - Vietnam generation, who have such a weak backbone that they can't stomach seeing the difficult tasks through to victory.

I'm tired that some are more concerned about the treatment of captives than they are the slaughter and beheading of our citizens and allies.

I'm tired that when we find mass graves it is seldom reported by the press, but mistreat a prisoner and it is front page news.

Mostly, I'm tired that the people of this great nation didn't learn from history that there is no substitute for Victory.

Sincerely, Joe Repya, Lieutenant Colonel, U. S. Army, 101st Airborne Division

The democrats only seek to destroy!!

I find myself in utter amazement at the left wing liberal parties notion that we the Christian nation, are at the level of paranoid false gossips, and it only seeks to remind me, Of a once dark age, when we as true believers in search of a higher being, were and still are to this day, persecuted for our right to life, and worship, the one who shed His life’s blood, for the very most moral human, to the very lowest lifer!!

Well, let me ask our left wing - liberal weaklings!!

If it is your intention to insist that it is our imagination? Then why do you set where you are today with the finest of today’s modern-day technologically advanced goods at your finger tips?

I want to assure you!!! that if it were not for the decent, God fearing people who sought and continue to seek to do good and right before the Almighty! then you would not be in this great land of finer common wealth, where you set today!!
……………………………………………………………………………………………
No, it was not our imagination THEN and STILL ISN’T to this day, it is REAL!!
And our left- wing hatemonger’s, only seek to bring back the dark ages once again, only because they still hate us with a passion, and with the obsession of right to gain power into the realm of destroying the life of those who try to do good before the eyes of Christ Jesus!!

The Democratic Party is a DISGRACE!! To this country!!

I can only hope that Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy and the like will wake up one day!! And see the stupidity in the damage they have done to this great country of ours!!
And it’s not because they don’t realize what they have and are doing it’s just plainly because THEY DON’T CARE! and they are trying to hijack, Almighty God!! Creator and provider, for One, And All!!, At least that is what they THINK!! And that is what makes them dangerous to America!! It’s their EVIL UTOPIANIZED MINDS!!

GOD, FORBID!!!! THEY’RE CONTROL OF AMERICA ONCE AGAIN!!

The bible says those who hate us, hate us WITHOUT reason and outnumber the hairs of our heads!!

The bible also speaks of the example set before us in the book of Jude and what people will reap who seek to destroy the God fearing foundation therein!!

It says the people of Sodom & Gomorrah serve as an example of who will suffer the punishment of eternal fire!! These very same people in this day and age are the very one’s, who’s condemnation was written about long ago, they are the godless liberal democrats, and their demented evil ideologies have slipped in among the good people of the United States of America!!

The bible says to BEWARE!!, of false teachers, such as liberal democrats! and to defend the Word of God against them!!

The democrats care NOTHING for others, the saying goes: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, well, if that is the case!! Then the democrats must be asking for an awful lot of harsh treatment, but you know, the democrats know they can get by with treating Christians the way they do, only because we Christians have turned the other cheek, and we treat others the way they SHOULD be treated, with the respect and love that they are due!!

We are the CHURCH!! the body of believers, of one, GREATLY ESTEEMED, WORTHY!!!!! Without ANY expectation of return reward in this life, but praise God!! in the next!!

And that is why I find it so very necessary to speak out, and stand up for the truth and it’s eternal, reward!! and what is the truth? The word of God Almighty!! Which is through, Christ Jesus, our Lord, and savior!!
………………………………………………………………………………………………
Mark, I am very pleased that you bring the truth!!!

Maybe now people will truly see that the democrats only seek to banish the Christian’s from the land they call home!!

Jeremiah

"...and the secular 'progressives' in Europe are busily doing what the secular 'progessives' would love to do here in the United States...regulate and harass the Church out of existence."-MN

The Christian church, yes. Meanwhile, these same secular progressive Europeans are importing Islamic followers by the millions. Christianity is dying in Europe. The non-Muslim European population is shrinking. Islam is thriving in Europe. The European Muslim population is exploding. Europe is going to wake up very soon and find out that they largely succeeded in stamping out Christianity only to replace it with Islam and Shari'a.

"... including an estimated 5 million Muslims in France. Though the figure 5 million may not seem large when viewed next to the populations of countries such as Indonesia, it still represents almost twenty percent of the people in France. What it has done to this western nation is negatively impact it so severely that it may soon lose its European identity. In fact, if the birth rate continues as projected, France will have a Muslim majority in less than 25 years.[..]

Just a few decades of high immigration of a group with high fertility has put France in the unenviable position of being the European nation thought most likely to be the first to introduce sharia (Islamic) law."-The French-Muslim Connection

More shocking details over at The Gates of Vienna: "At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe. We are in a new phase of a very old war."-

"According to some, one out of three babies born in France is now a Muslim. Around 70% of French prisoners are Muslims. Hundreds of Muslim ghettos are already de facto following sharia, not French law."

I think there is but one way of putting this - you DO NOT need religion to have good morality.

This "war on religion" is probably more the idea of using REASON and INTELLECT to show SOME Christians that they are being quite unreasonable and trying to force their opinions onto others - particularly in the form of law.

This country was founded on religious FREEDOM, which means that ALL are welcome to practice the religion of their choice.

It is NOT founded on the idea that SOME people (notice I did not say all Christians)force their way of life upon others. And then, like many Conservatives, blame the left for doing so.

The Conservative motto - when in doubt, blame it on Liberals - how very "Christian" of them....

Hey Warrior, Did you notice the lefty's come out of the wood work the second Israel invaded? As they did here in the U.S. before we went into afghanistan & Iraq! I'll BET any lefty here, that the libs will be wringing there hands in excitement as the number of Israeli dead creaps up to one thousand(If it were to get there, which is doubtful), the latest demoncrat talking point! Gotta love those lefty's, they are so predictable!

Jewish people came to this country long before Catholics. The first temple: built in 1697. Where is any Proof this a "christian country"?
Why do you care, what is it to you what religion Americans practice? How is that any of your business?
"brownish" "Leftists"??? Did you get left off the list, nobody told you this is the 21st Century, not the 19th??? You claim to BE "Christian" so how do you justify the vitriol, the hate directed at Democrats, "liberals" and people who think progressively and people who follow religion that is not 'Christian'? Which part of that is in your Bible? Is THAT what you learn in mega churches? You weren't born with hate, you learned it --from? What I really want to know: what about The Republican Plan? http://cancer-politics-remedies.blogspot.com/

Georgia,

But it is our country - we are the majority; we pay most of the taxes, provide most of the soldiers, do most of the work.

We will not be sat in a corner and told we can't bring our religion in to the public square. Our religion is what makes us what we are, and we must act upon it. You are asking us to pretend we don't believe what we believe when we are in the public square because this will offend against the Constitution - the Constitution we wrote, and have defended for more than 200 years.

No, Georgia, we will have our place in this country - and it will be the predominant place.

Yes, you Christians are being paranoid. There is no war against Christianity, despite the fact that you desperately long for it. It's all a part of you perpetual culture of victimhood. We didn't hear much about these issues a few years ago when you didn't have the oval office and the congress. Then, you just complained about the Democrats in power.

Now that you have governing power locked up (though you haven't yet neutered the Supreme Court), you drone on day after day about how you are poor victims of the liberals. The liberals wont report the news right, the liberals want to take Christmas away from us, the liberals are brainwashing our kids in school, the liberals want to impeach our good president, etc., etc., on and on...wah, wah, wah!

Georgia is right. You are free to practice your religion and proclaim it as loud as you like in the public square. Stand on a box in the park and talk through a megaphone, go door to door, hand out your leaflets on the sidewalk. Just don't ask the government to take an active role in helping you to promote it. That's all.

Nobody is making you sit in the corner. You are sitting in the corner of your own accord, crying “Look everyone, the Liberals made me sit in the corner!”

The stand the Vatican takes against birth control is simply criminal.

I'm curious, Wade, would you be able to explain why the Catholic Church teaches that contraception is wrong? I find that most people who criticize it don't even know the reasons.

If you wish to understand it, so that you can make an intelligent argument rather than just blowing smoke, I would suggest "Theology of the Body for Beginners" or "Theology of the Body Explained" by Christopher West. You can also get a free cd at www.catholicity.com that explains it.

I for one agree with the Catholic Church's stance against contraception.

-Lee

Has anyone thought about this in the perspective of 'free-markets'?

If Europe is seeing such a precipitous drop in Christians, then that must mean that their product just isn't all that good, sorry, go back and re-tool, and stop whining, the market is giving you their buying-signs, and they are telling you that Pauline-Christianity is just an inferior product.

Mark-

I didn't say that you had to "sit in the corner;" you are welcome to profess your religion in public places as much as you want to. You are welcome to do all of that with your own time and money, but I don't want the money that I pay the government to serve me to promote any religion or group of religions.

You can be the majority without the country being exclusively "yours". The country is as much mine as it is yours.

Mark-

I didn't say that you had to "sit in the corner;" you are welcome to profess your religion in public places as much as you want to. You are welcome to do all of that with your own time and money, but I don't want the money that I pay the government to serve me to promote any religion or group of religions.

You can be the majority without the country being exclusively "yours". The country is as much mine as it is yours.

First off, my liberal jabberator, take the time to learn how to embed your links to make them clickable. I don't see why I should have to cut-and-paste because you don't know how to embed a link. It won't take even 5 minutes for you to learn, unless you just ain't too swift.

"'In my more than three decades in government, I have never seen anything approaching the degree to which information flow from scientists to the public has been screened and controlled as it is now,' James Hansen told a University of Iowa audience."

So a Clinton holdover is unhappy. Knock me over with a feather. And speaking at a University too. Imagine that. There's certainly no liberal bias there, right?

"Von Eschenbach [acting commisioner] could demonstrate his commitment to the FDA's independence and scientific integrity and help restore staff morale and waning public credibility by stopping the rulemaking process and approving access to Plan B for women 17 and older."

The FDA is NOT independent. Thought I explained that to you already. Part of the reason that the President was elected was because the voters who elected him wanted him to stop some of this Mengele-style "science" to which you allude. Plan B is a controversial drug - commonly called the "Morning After pill" and many, including scientists, believe it can cause the rejection of a fertilized fetus from the womb - an abortion. So of course its going to be controversial and of course the President's people who he legally gets to appoint are going to reflect his views. YOu attempt to gain the high ground by claiming "science" but it is a transparent ploy. What you want is the legalization of a drug which many believe causes abortions. That is because you see nothing wrong with abortions. This has little to do with science. But for your agenda, which is obviously the pure one, its ok to play political games and hide behind "science." Show scientific proof (and I mean proof) that Plan B does not and cannot cause an abortion, and I will join your team on that issue. But you won't because you can't. And please don't bore me with he said-she said stuff. I need proof. Scientific proof. And we are back to the old story. Get someone elected who agrees with you and get it changed. But stop the whining.

Again, read, and learn:

"More than 4,000 scientists, including 48 Nobel laureates, have joined a call for 'restoration of scientific integrity in federal policymaking,' charging that the Bush administration is packing scientific advisory panels with ideologues and imposing controls on collaboration with foreign researchers, a scientists' group said yesterday."

Wow! There's a shocker! A bunch of academics, and oh, I forgot the Nobel winners (you know like Arafat), don't like the way Bush is running things. Well, maybe they ought to get a candidate elected who they do like. Good luck.

Oh, I forgot - Republicans don't have any sex. Newsflash: teenagers do, regardless of the "morals" you try to impose upon them. What, no sex before marriage, Rev?

Is this an example of your "scientific" mindset? Ever wonder why we question science when those who support it talk like that? The fact is, that it is the responsibility of the parents to educate their children about sex. The relentless attacks on the family, coupled with the liberal choke-hold on schools and the resultant introduction of sexually-oriented training even down into grade school make it difficult for the family to have a chance to do that. Liberals call this attack on family progress.

How about Bush saying that "intelligent design" should be taught alongside evolution when teaching about the creation of life? Pandering to the extreme right wing idealogues, ya think?

Where has he said that it shouldn't be? I missed that. Or are you just making that up?

Plan B either stops ovulation, fertilization, or prevents the egg from attaching to the uteral walls, therefore it can't EVER become a fetus, the progesterone-only nature of the pills doesn't affect the egg if it is already fertilized and embeded. Infact, there is no proof anywhere that the drug can or does affect the egg once fertilized.

"The post-fertilization effect was purely a speculation that became truth by repetition," says Joe DeCook, MD, a retired OB/GYN and vice president of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. "In our group the feelings are split. We say it should be each doctor's own decision, because there is no proof."

thus it can't be an "abortion", unless ofcourse you consider the natural process that a woman's body goes through in occasionally flushing an implanted egg from the uterus, "abortion", too.

Can you provide me some peer-reviewed material which calls into question whether Plan B aborts fertilized, embeded zygotes?

Next, we move onto sex-ed. It becomes a public-safety issue when kids are spreading disease from improper use of contraceptives, so it IS our responsibility to teach children how to be safe.

I don't want my child to get an STD because your kid has been left in the dark by his parents, and is too ignorant to use a rubber; Y'know in that act that many kids engage in, that some people refuse to admit happens in the real world. Are you afraid that the school may teach something incorrectly, is that why you propose children don't get educated before the parents grow the back-bone enough to do it themselves, or do you prefer that we wait until they are 18, and it isn't your responsibility anymore?

If Al Gore or Hillary Clinton were to have been elected during the time of George Bush, I feel firmly that we the people of the United States of America, would be in the hands of the Taliban, right now!!

And I believe that to be fact!!

And that is why I believe it is extremely important to keep Amereica out of the hands of people like Hillary Clinton and such other communist demoncrats!!

We are at such a critical point in time as to the safety of America!! there is a new election coming up, and if Hillary clinton were to run for president and make it, it would be tragic day for America!!

Jeremiah

"Just don't ask the government to take an active role in helping you to promote it. That's all."
..................................................

you see folks!! Right there is a prime example of hatred for Christians and God!!

The liberals don't want God to be part of government in any way shape or form!!, and that is the way the devil tries his best to make sure God is not recognized in the public!!

Well, I can tell you this mr.extremedem, We the Christian's will render to caesar, what it is caesars, BUT!, The WORD OF GOD!! SHALL REMAIN!!A PART!! AND A FOUNDATION!! OF THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!

NOTHING!! WILL EVER!! STOP THE WILL OF GOD!!

Jeremiah

And the will of God is what Jeremiah, Peace? If you believe that it is war then you have fallen from grace and cannot enter heaven,Jeremiah. You must work everyday and in everyway to bring God's "new heaven and new earth" and that can only be done by practicing non-violence. You aren't really a Christian are you Jeremiah? Peace

The Washington Post reports :

Some say it causes abortions. Some say it only prevents them. And the dirty little secret is, nobody really knows.

Are they lying? Sounds unlikely in this case. The fact is, nobody really knows.

Battles are raging everywhere. Last Monday, the governor of Illinois ordered a crackdown on pharmacists. Last Tuesday, the Maryland state Senate rejected over-the-counter access; last Thursday, the Colorado state Senate approved it. Already, EC is a factor in the 2008 presidential race. Republican governors Mitt Romney (Mass.) and George Pataki (N.Y.) vetoed EC access bills last summer.

Seems that fate has taken a hand. You blame the FDA, but these aren't FDA types. They're state government officials, elected by the people. Seems not everybody is buying your "scientific" scam.

The outcome of the war depends on whether EC gets defined as birth control or abortion. Several states have excluded it from insurance coverage or Medicaid-funded family planning. Romney, in his veto message, said if EC were "contraception, I wouldn't have a problem with it." Nor would most Americans. In a Zogby Interactive survey released a week ago, 44 percent of respondents supported over-the-counter access to "the morning-after abortion pill." Change that question to "the morning-after birth control pill," and the minority would instantly become a majority. Even Supreme Court nominees John G. Roberts Jr. and Samuel A. Alito Jr., while reserving judgment on Roe v. Wade, endorsed Griswold v. Connecticut, which established the right to birth control.

Note that this is further evidence that the issue is unsettled - even scientifically. If it were indeed to be declared without question to be birth control, I would support its use, like any birth control pill. But that has not happened, no matter what you claim.

The article goes on to point out:

That's the idea behind Plan B. "It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg," says the manufacturer, Barr Pharmaceuticals Inc. However, Barr adds, the drug "may also prevent the fertilization of an egg" or prevent a fertilized egg "from attaching to the uterus."

There's the rub. If you think a fertilized egg is a human being, as most anti-abortion activists do, then preventing it from attaching to the uterus is abortion.

Precisely the issue. Fortunately, pro-abortionists do not get to declare when a human being is a human being. I shudder to think what they would decide - they already support abortion up to the moment of delivery. Next might be, "the infant was unviable because the mother rejected it so it had to be euthenized, you know, just like a litter of unwanted puppies." You think that far fetched? Well, its those same liberals who are screaming that Dr. Death, Kevorkian the Euthenizer, should be let out of prison.

More from the article:

Abortion rights supporters are divided, too. Planned Parenthood, the Population Council and similar groups claim that studies prove EC has "no effect on implantation." But Plan B's manufacturer doesn't agree. Neither does James Trussell, who is a leading authority on EC. Trussell says that while EC usually prevents ovulation, some evidence "suggests a post-fertilization contraceptive effect." A week ago, he warned colleagues, "We cannot conclude that EC [pills] never prevent pregnancy after fertilization."

The issue is far from decided scientifically, no matter what you say. And until it is, Plan B should be banned or at least heavily controlled since it very well could be an abortion drug. What gets me is that the liberals seem to be afraid of their own positions. They are gung-ho supporters of free and easy abortions. What should they care if this drug causes them. They should champion the fact. But they skulk around behind their bogus claims of "science" to push their agenda dishonestly. I don't get it. I am against abortion and unafraid to admit it. I will oppose any attempt to spread the killing of the unborn. If that causes me to be ridiculed, so be it. I am proud of my position. Why must the liberals deny their own beliefs in order to convince people they really don't mean what they really mean?

You say sex education...
becomes a public-safety issue when kids are spreading disease from improper use of contraceptives, so it IS our responsibility to teach children how to be safe.

You are half right. It IS our responsibility to teach OUR children. It is not your responsibility to teach my children. And I have no obligation to spend my tax dollars paying for sexual indoctrinations in the public schools. To me it is no different than a teacher trying to teach religion in the public schools. Neither belongs there. If you have children who you are having sex at a young age, find them some help at the doctor's office - at your expense.

I don't want my child to get an STD because your kid has been left in the dark by his parents

Straw man argument. My child (why do you have a child and I have a kid?) knows everything possible about STDs and how to prevent them along with unwelcome pregnancies. He learned it from his home and family. Fortunately, he attended schools where that stuff was not permitted to be taught and we then had the chance to teach him ourselves.

Are you afraid that the school may teach something incorrectly

No. I am not afraid of anything. I know what goes on in schools. It isn't the mechanics of how to use a condom that are the problem. It is the fact that it should not be taught at taxpayer expense anymore than religion. It is the fact that the schools are rife with liberals who will take the opportunity to preach - "hey kids, sex is cool. Let me show you girls how to give really good head. And guys, do you know about flavored condoms?" Tell me that never goes on. Go ahead, tell me. At least once a month we read about teachers having inappropriate contact (liberal talk for sex) with students, some of which are not even into their teens yet. Think they might push "sex is cool - sex is fun" on unsuspecting students? This like the abortion scam is another leftist misdirection. You WANT them to teach that. But you are afraid to say it. Why?

is that why you propose children don't get educated before the parents grow the back-bone enough to do it themselves, or do you prefer that we wait until they are 18, and it isn't your responsibility anymore?

Stupid questions not requiring answers.

Georgia,

Indeed - and we shall hash it out and take a vote, and as long as it isn't expressly forbidden by the Constitution, it will be law...we are going to undo those "penumbras" which somehow made abortion legal, and prayer at school illegal.

The country is as much mine as it is yours.

You are absolutely correct, Frawg, but Noonan will never, ever accept that. Not when he thinks he can gin up some sympathy by bleating about how he's one of the most oppressed people around: a white Christian male. I mean, it's a good election ploy, right?

Mark- Bring it on! Just because a majority in this country is Christian, doesn't mean that a good many Christians wouldn't prefer to leave things the way they are. Many religious people consider religion a private matter that is not in the realm of the government to legislate.

The "War" on Christianity is an example of the exaggerated paranoia incited by extremists in the Christian right and by talk radio. No one on the left cares how you practice your religion, as long as you don't foist your religious beliefs and practices on the rest of us.

Even as a Christian, I am turned off by leaders like Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, James Dobson and Pat Robertson, and even more turned off by the politicians who pander to them so that they can obtain political power. By politicizing their religion they have cheapened it.

Rev,

I'm sorry, in all that talk about "ifs" and "maybes" and "perhaps'", was there anything in there from a peer-reviewed journal or paper which bolsters your position that fertilization is affected by these drugs? So, what you're saying is that your position is guessing, and you wan't to block the approval of a drug, based on non-scientific guessing by political appointees?

When even the pro-Life doctors are shrugging at this one, it can be called a non-starter.

In regards to sex-ed...was there some sort of fact to your argument about what is, and isn't being taught in health-classes? i didn't know you sat-in on every health class in the US to record your observations...wow, you must have a hell of a collection of frequent-flyer miles.

You may have taken the time to teach your kids, but that doesn't mean everyone else is, and when it comes to public health, we do have a responsibility to teach ALL kids the dangers, your assumptions about what quips are, and aren't taught in classes is nothing more than praddle, and conjecture. Perhaps we shouldn't teach history, don't want rogue teachers tellin' kids about the seedy-side of coloniolism and Vietnam.

I'm sorry..

Look even the manufacturer of the pill isn't sure. He's got to have a whole slew of scientists and researchers on his payroll and a vested interest in getting beyond this question, yet he can't. I will take his word for it and you can spout off all day about "peer reviews" but that's all it is.

The rest of your post is two things:

1. Loaded with sand man fallacies and...

2. A restatement of the fact that ***surprise*** liberals like you, and conservatives like me disagree about what the role of the educational system should be. Think you're gonna change my mind? Think I'll change yours? Why bother trying?

But stop with the rhetorical games. Do you really in the depths of your brain think that one has to attend every class in America on "health" to determine what is going on? Really? That's a stupid rhetorical ploy and is pointless and it adds nothing to your argument. But you probably already knew that.

Well at least the lefties here are up front with their prejudices, bigotry and ignorance. Unfortunately they won't acknowledge that they are prejudice, bigoted and ignorant. And probably will deny it or sarcastically admit to it or even point the finger, make an accusation, in an effort to divert attention.

Rev,

So what you're saying here is that the pro-lifers can't prove anything, yet based on their lack of proof, they want everyone else to just trust 'em, and stop the drug from being approved for use. That isn't how the FDA is supposed to work, they are supposed to take the advisement of their panels, especially ones which agree 24-0, not the conjecture and guessing of non-scientific "what-ifs".

You're right, I am not going to change your mind, so be it, I said my peace. On your final point about me "knowing" what goes on in health-classes, no I don't know *wink* *wink*, i would GUESS that these teachers have been so brow beaten, and hamstrung by scared school boards, that they probably don't step out of line for fear of being ratted out, and fired...but thats just a guess.

"You must work everyday and in everyway to bring God's "new heaven and new earth" and that can only be done by practicing non-violence."

Steve,

I did not start the war on Christian's, It is you and your party who have started violent acts towards Christian's!!

You think about it!, Your party the DEMONCRAT'S want to remove the soledad cross on the mt in washington!!

You want to take prayer out of schools that has been there ever since the beginning!, from primitive education, all the way to now!!

You want to take the ten commandments out of the court rooms!!

You don't want anyone to speak of God in public places period!!

And you know what? The more I think about it the angrier I get, and sorry for saying so, but someone needs to slap the snot out of you for you trying to push your tuff luck!!

You only come here to say something stupid and irrelevant to what the subject is, and it's only because you deny the truth and you hate Jesus for who he is and what he done for you steve, You are just like the crowd who surrounded Jesus at His crucifixion, they said SAVE YOURSELF IF YOU ARE THE MESSIAH, you are just like them, and you spit on Jesus, you do all kinds of hateful acts against the Christians!!

But the bible speaks of Christian's who are persecuted by you, it says for us to "Pray for you who despitefully use us, and persecute us for His name sake, AND OH MY!! WHAT DAY THAT WILL BE WHEN JESUS I SHALL SEE, I SHALL SEE HIM FACE TO FACE!! THE ONE WHO SAVED ME BY HIS GRACE, AND HE WILL LEAD ME THROUGH THE PROMISED LAND!!

WHAT A GLORIOUS DAY!!

The truth hurts does'nt it? well, if you want to live in the next life, steve, I would highly suggest you start LIVING IT! AND QUIT WHINING AROUND!!!

Jeremiah

-------------------
The liberals don't want God to be part of government in any way shape or form!!, and that is the way the devil tries his best to make sure God is not recognized in the public!!

Well, I can tell you this mr.extremedem, We the Christian's will render to caesar, what it is caesars, BUT!, The WORD OF GOD!! SHALL REMAIN!!A PART!! AND A FOUNDATION!! OF THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!

NOTHING!! WILL EVER!! STOP THE WILL OF GOD!!

Jeremiah
-----------------------

The way that I understand it is this country was founded on the freedom of religion. Plymouth Rock was founded by Pilgrims that wanted to escape the Church of England. People would actually be fined for missing any Church of England services and jailed for conducting any unofficial services not associated with the Church of Englad.

That doesn't sound like much fun to me. The pilgrims wanted the freedom to practice what they believed without anybody telling them differently. The way I see it is the Christian right is wanting to reform to the same method that caused our early American settlers to flee England---Government Religion!!!

Now I'm not saying that the government would ever implement a mandatory church gathering every week and imprison any non-christians, but why do you right wingers insist that government and religion belong together? In my opinion, we have churches for you to go and practice your beliefs.

Also, everybody is born an atheist until their parents tell them otherwise.

Chris

So what you're saying here is that the pro-lifers can't prove anything

Prove anything? What is there to prove? If this drug kills a fertilized egg, it has killed a human being. Since even its manufacturer says that he can't rule out that it does, why should we agree to allow widespread use of it? The burden of proof is on the pushers of the drug, not pro-lifers.

yet based on their lack of proof, they want everyone else to just trust 'em, and stop the drug from being approved for use.

No, they are not asking anyone to trust them. They are saying that the science has not PROVED that the pill does not and cannot be used to cause an abortion. If it were to go to market without that proof, it would be the same as approving an experimental drug - something which is rarely done - and then only when saving a life would be the likely result and worth the risks. currently nearly 100 percent of graduating physicians in America take the Hippocratic Oath. One paragraph from it says:

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

That isn't how the FDA is supposed to work, they are supposed to take the advisement of their panels, especially ones which agree 24-0, not the conjecture and guessing of non-scientific "what-ifs".

They can take the advisement and decide against it, can't they? If they are violating their charter, why hasn't someone brought charges? Just because you happen to disagree with them does not mean they're doing anything unethical or illegal.

...that they probably don't step out of line for fear of being ratted out, and fired...but thats just a guess.

How I wish you were right. I'd say it runs the gamut. In inner city and highly populated areas (where most people are liberals) they probably run down to the local porn store for the latest "gang bang" video. Four guys at at time on one girl can get really complicated and these youngsters need a little guidance. But in places like Mustang, Oklahoma, where my kid went to school, they stick pretty much to things like hygiene and stuff like that. In California, they're teaching sex education to 5th graders. (10 year olds) AIDs prevention to 6th graders. (11 year olds). There's also a course called "Parenting" for 7th and 8th graders (12 and 13 year olds). In California, which is crawling with liberals, this is probably appropriate but in most of America, people might have a hard time with the targeted age groups.

TEO,

This thread has nothing to do with abortion!!

We are talking about: Your parties war on christianity!!

What is it? You can't face, REALITY?

Jeremiah

TEO,

I'll tell you what to do!!

Why don't you go join those you so jealously defend!, and try hiding behind them for a while!!

See how long you last there!!

That would be a comedy, HA,HA!!

Watching them tell you to sit down and BE QUIET!!

You don't even realize what a danger your party is to you TEO!!

Yet!, you blindly follow!!!

\'pes'\

Jeremiah

"So what you're saying here is that the pro-lifers can't prove anything, yet based on their lack of proof, they want everyone else to just trust 'em, and stop the drug from being approved for use."

Nope, I believe he's saying that the pro-"choice"ers can't prove anything, and based on YOUR lack of proof, we're not going to just trust you and approve the drug for use with the possibility that it could result in an abortion.

Nope, I believe he's saying...

Wonder why that's so difficult for a librul to understand, LNC. Seems so simple to me.

LNC and Rev,

There are HUGE amounts of drugs which we can't prove side effects for, what you're asking for cannot, in the near future, be proven one way or the other, so what you've asked for is your opinion about when and where and how a human is a human to stop the manufacturing of a product.

What if I were to claim that pollutants from cars were capable of killing a fertilized egg, would I have a case to have the government stop the manufacturing of vehicles which emit those pollutants? What about cell phone radiation? living near power-lines? bio-engineered foods? tight pants?

If you don't like the side-effects of your actions, then don't take the product, it's that simple.

"Even as a Christian, I am turned off by leaders like Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, James Dobson and Pat Robertson, and even more turned off by the politicians who pander to them so that they can obtain political power. By politicizing their religion they have cheapened it."

Another prime example of hate for Christians!!

I'll tell you REAL FAST!!

James Dobson is a good man!!, and anyone who says otherwise is a HYPOCRIT AND LIAR, BOTH!!

James Dobson preaches the TRUTH!!, and that is Something you SUUUUURE do need to learn!!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah - you sir, are a hoot! The entertainment quotient of B4B has gone up considerably since you started posting. You just keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep LMAO. Thanks man!

extremedemon,

You can laugh all you want too!!

But, by you humiliating me, you only seek to humiliate yourself before the eyes of christ!!

As for myself though, the lord tells me in the book of Romans........
"Do not be overcome by evil" and.......

Furthermore, through my suffering, by sacrificing my time for christ, I find this passage in Phillipians a worthy saying......

"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ -- the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead."

So, In doing this I further my promise of the right to the tree of life!

Something you could practice a little of!!!

Unless of course, you care nothing for your soul?

Yeah, go ahead, laugh!!!!

:)

Ps 118:24 This is the day that the Lord hath made let us rejoice and be glad in it!!!

Jeremiah

extremedemon,

One more thing, I forgot to tell you !!

In this verse God tells me he will take care of you for me!!

My suffering for God will be rewarded!!

It says in Thessalonians!

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you!!

On down it says:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power!!!"
..................................................

mercy sakes!! You best be getting on your knees and getting rid of whatever it is that is in you, extremedemon!!

Jeremiah

Another post gobbled up by the crapola comment section of b4b. Nice.

testing testing testing testing

There are HUGE amounts of drugs which we can't prove side effects for,

Nice try, but no prize. The question is whether the pill can be used to cause an abortion. That is not a side-effect, that would be as an intended use. If the pill cannot do it, I say, based on its safety record, make it OTC. But first, PROVE it cannot be used to produce an abortion. If it can, it belongs in the same review and approval process as RU-486, not masquerading as a birth control pill.

what you're asking for cannot, in the near future, be proven one way or the other, so what you've asked for is your opinion about when and where and how a human is a human to stop the manufacturing of a product.

Baloney. It is probably already pretty well known in clinical tests whether it is capable of causing abortions. That's probably why the CEO of the company who makes the drug says he can't rule it out as causing an abortion. I'll bet he knows more than what he's saying, but in any case, let's find out for sure.

What if I were to claim that pollutants from cars were capable of killing a fertilized egg, would I have a case to have the government stop the manufacturing of vehicles which emit those pollutants?

Did you mean that as a serious question? Is that how you think you can advance a debate? By questions like that? Come on, you can do better than that - I've seen you do better. That was a real sad attempt.

What about cell phone radiation? living near power-lines? bio-engineered foods? tight pants?

More rhetorical game-playing. And I thought you were serious about solving the problem.

If you don't like the side-effects of your actions, then don't take the product, it's that simple.

Sure it is. Sure it is. You just keep saying that...

Rev,

It is a scientific question of limited technology. The variables concerned with trying to figure out at what point an egg is fertilized in a woman, is a difficlut matter, quite different than trying it in a dish. The chemicals involved in Plan-B are the same chemicals in standard birth-control, just larger doses.

"However, it is not known if this post-fertilization effect actually happens. "There is no evidence that the Pill's effect on the uterine lining interferes with implantation or has a post-fertilization effect," says contraception expert Felicia Stewart, MD, codirector of the Center for Reproductive Health Research and Policy in San Francisco. "Documenting it would be a very difficult research task."

"Consensus comes from a surprising source. "The post-fertilization effect was purely a speculation that became truth by repetition," says Joe DeCook, MD, a retired OB/GYN and vice president of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. "In our group the feelings are split. We say it should be each doctor's own decision, because there is no proof."

--It is only your feelings that lead you to believe that there is a cover-up, but the players involved can't say one way or the other. In the meantime, the guesses of one group of people are trumping the opinions of actual, medical doctors and FDA panel members.

I was being serious with my questions, If it could be proved that cell-phone radiation could affect a fertilized egg in the womb, and cause rejection or abortion, would we have a case to remove all cell-phones from the market by the nature of their inherent dangers to the pre-born?

What about a promising cancer drug? Would the chance of abortion in the course of saving a woman's life be enough to take the drug off the market?

TEO,

You are a CANCER!!, A cancer to B4B!!

Jeremiah

with trying to figure out...

You mean that your vaunted scientists can't figure it out and we are supposed to trust them? I call that circular logic.

"In our group the feelings are split. We say it should be each doctor's own decision, because there is no proof."

Feelings? Split? Where's all that talk about science. There's no "feelings" in science. And fortunately, those clowns are not who gets to make the decision, although I'm sure they'd like to. Can I hear a "ca-ching?"

I was being serious with my questions, If it could be proved that cell-phone radiation could affect a fertilized egg in the womb, and cause rejection or abortion, would we have a case to remove all cell-phones from the market by the nature of their inherent dangers to the pre-born?

Not it the "what-ifs" game - especially as it side-tracks the real issues here.

What about a promising cancer drug? Would the chance of abortion in the course of saving a woman's life be enough to take the drug off the market?

How would it ever get to the market? Stop with the rhetorical games and deal with the issue. Does the drug cause abortions or not. If the answer is no, and it can be proved to a scientific certainty, I say go ahead and legalize it. Make it widely available. But if the answer is yes, then it is not what it is being claimed to be and it is an immense fraud on the American public. And if the answer is "I don't know," find out. We can wait. Women have been on this planet a long time without the "benefit" of this drug. A few months or years won't make much difference in the big picture.

Rev,

"You mean that your vaunted scientists can't figure it out and we are supposed to trust them?"

--You're deflecting the argument, it was never the scientists burden to figure out whether it could possibly cause the rejection of a fertilized egg, just as it isn't the burden for scientists to figure out whether AIDS drugs could possibly do the same. It just isn't an argument that either side can prove, scientifically. By your threshold of proof, then every drug on the market can be held up indefinately until this question can be answered.

"And fortunately, those clowns are not who gets to make the decision, although I'm sure they'd like to. Can I hear a "ca-ching?""

--The people on the FDA panel though are doctors who matter, and their opinion on the matter was trumped.

Secondly, no-one involved with the Doctors are going to make any money, the drug was going to be OTC; Big-Pharma, Wal-mart, and CVS would be making cash, the Doctors would be left out of the loop on this one.

"Not it the "what-ifs" game"

--This entire rhetorical exercise from pro-lifers is a "what-if" game. The doctors, and just about everyone else who counts gave it the green-light. The process was stymied by un-provable hypotheticals.

"And if the answer is "I don't know," find out. We can wait"

--Why should the manufacturer be made to waste millions of dollars more to attempt to prove a point that may take years to test. I thought that the Republicrat creedo was to leave the market alone, why are you advocating more levels of red-tape for a product which isn't being disputed on the basis it poses a health-risk, only a '"what-ifs" game' as you put it.