I guess Time was a bit premature when it said, "Cowboy diplomacy is dead." Thank goodness they were.

It's embarrasing that Mr. Bush represents this country.

Invading Iraq was supposed to bring about a transition to peace and democracy in the Middle East. Bush's neocon fantasy has just been blown to bits.

Why is Syria going to stop anything. We are hopelessly pinned down in Iraq, bleeding lives and treasure with no end in sight and no plan from Republicans.

Sad day for America.

Wade

Wade,

Great DNC talking points - now, why don't you sit and think a bit about what is going on.

Independent thought only hurts the first time you do it.

Rev,

A bit more blunt than I'd have been, but probably salubrious in the overall situation.

Wade,

Seems to me you've got two choices. You can go find a tall building, go to the roof and jump, or you can get a flight to Beirut and join Hezbollah.

But for everyone's sake do one or the other soon and stop that pantywaist whining - its unbecoming of you.

"No plan from the Republicans" - Wade

Actually, Wade, if you read the rest of Bush's quotes, he has a plan:

He's hoping Kofi Annan and the UN can do something and he's going to hide behind Condi's skirts while she does some talking. That's brave, brave, sir George for you.

Other choice bits of wisdom: "Russia is a big country. China is a big country."

Sad day for America.

Wade

the president said the word "shit" and it becomes a sad day for america? you lefties are priceless!!!(which is a nice way of saying worthless)

Give them hell Mr. president . . . you're a breath of fresh air in this phony, media driven leftist charade, passing itself off as "news".

Wade: It takes about two posts to see where Rev. Knuckle Dragger is coming from.

His I.Q. doesn't even match that of his cats.(Cats are for gays any way)

Ignore him.

I agree Syria, the H's, and Iran are becoming more emboldened because it is obvious we are not as powerful as they thought. It's kind of like the playground bully: the first time he gets his chin busted he is no longer invincible.

Ash and Wade, you have no idea what you're talking about. What? Does history start for you 3 and a half years ago or 6 years ago? Syria and Iran and Hezbollah have been a problem since the end of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s respectively. You really need to live outside the bubble and realize that history existed before President Bush. M'kay? By the way, good "liberal" comment for you to write: Cats are for gays any way. How PC of you.
-OC

Wade

I have not seen your plan. The DNC plan is to "redeploy." As we have seen with the situation in Israel, this would not be workable. Israel redeployed from Lebanon, Gaza, and part of the West Bank. All this accomplished was to stregthen the terrorists. Besides if we withdraw from Iraq right now, we would probably have to go right back in anyway. They would simply re establish the terrorist training camps. My suggestion is as it has always been. Commit more troops and more equipment to get security under control. Also, the forces we have in the region should be used more decisively.

Ash

The US and its allies are not the bullies here. The bullies are the terrorists. They are the ones who deliberately target civilians and they are the ones who are trying to exert control over the world. Israel is in the process of teaching these bullies a lesson. Lets hope they succeed. The best thing for the US to do would be to stay out of their way and let them smash Hamas and Hezbollah. This would be a big help to everyone.

Mark- So they are DNC talking points but your parroting of President Bush (shit-man) is not? hmmmmm.

What's more offensive? Bush using a barnyard epithet, or Clinton saying, "Kiss this, honey!"?

Go Dubya!

Looks like Time was shoveling more liberal S**t...Comboy diplomacy is alive and well.

Drives you libs wild when President Bush talks the talk and walks the walk. Makes me proud to finally have the real deal commanding our military.

Much better than the 8 embarassing years I served under BJ Bubba and the hildebeast.

what a disgrace. if he were not born in CT, i'd say he's just another southern redneck with poor table manners and a barely-passing grasp of proper language skills.

good thing the microphone didn't pick up his farting!

nice nebraska,
anytime bush speaks your 'language' you finally get it. four letter, one-syllable words really ring true. what is this? a spaghetti western? no, its called being the frigin president of the united states and acting like one.

honestly, you guys set the bar so-low around these parts i feel like i'm watching the special olympics.

God(s) willing, perhaps cooler heads are set to prevail.

The israelis are floating the idea of a re-working of their demands, they are asking for the two troops back, stoppage of the rocket barrage, and Lebanese army to take over the border.

All I can hope is that this isn't an empty offer, I am afraid the prideful idiocy of Lebanese/Hezzbollah officials don't get in the way of them doing what is right for their people, but I guess after the display of Hamas prior to this year, maybe my expectations are too 'pie-in-the-sky'.

May God(s) give Israeli leaders the wisdom to stop anymore loss of innocent lives, and forgive those who trespass, and have faith that they will forgive you for yours.

I'm all for the eradication of anyone who is a member of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, or any other terrorist organization. God speed, Israel. Kill 'em all....

"'pie-in-the-sky'."

Yep. I knew you was up there!

Just another liberal in the mix!

Jeremiah

When you compare Bush's non-existent diplomacy and failed policy to Jimmy Carter's and even (gasp) Richard Nixon's accomplishments, you wonder.

What happened to America? What allowed this buffoon Bush into the White House and the capitulating Congress to allow this folly?

I blame the liberal, progressive establishment for not fighting hard enough. After 40 years of astounding successes in social policy, equality and economics, we became complacent. We never expected to have to fight these battles against discrimination and exploitation all over again. Wrong we were.

Through persistence and sheer unethical tactics, the "conservatives" have captured the heart of the unruly mob whilst lying to the same. The religious fundamentalists, the modern-day Pharasies, have hijacked the party of Lincoln and fouled it with prejudice and ugly hyperbole.

What we are left with is shell of an executive who thinks that he is on a mission from God while his backers and handlers are on a mission from Wall Street.

It will no go on forever.

But the Democrats need to pick up the sword and defend that which made America the great nation she was once. Progressive (as in progress) made this country the envy of the world.

Now we are just the biggest braggart, biggest borrower and biggest polluter.

Liberals, it is time to once again come to the defense of your nation.

Wade

God(s) willing, perhaps cooler heads are set to prevail.

Are you a Muslim? That sounds like it. But no matter, cooler heads will not prevail.

The israelis are floating the idea of a re-working of their demands, they are asking for the two troops back, stoppage of the rocket barrage, and Lebanese army to take over the border.

If Hezbollah returns the prisoners (which they won't) they still will not move back from the border. Why? Because the only other place they could go to exert any influence would be Beirut and the Lebanese government ain't having none of that. But Hezbollah wouldn't back off anyway. Plus we've found out that they have rockets from Syria and Iran that can hit Israel no matter how much they back off the border. Israel knows that too and this is just a ploy on their part to seem reasonable. They will crush Hezbollah without mercy. There will be no deal.

All I can hope is that this isn't an empty offer

The only reason Israel made it is because they KNOW the terrorists won't take it. If they thought there was any chance of them accepting it, they would never have offered it.

I am afraid the prideful idiocy of Lebanese/Hezzbollah officials don't get in the way of them doing what is right for their people, but I guess after the display of Hamas prior to this year, maybe my expectations are too 'pie-in-the-sky'.

They are and naive and uninformed too.

May God(s) give Israeli leaders the wisdom to stop anymore loss of innocent lives, and forgive those who trespass, and have faith that they will forgive you for yours.

Being an atheist, I see no value in that statement. This ain't about god or God or gods. This is a fight to the death for Hezbollah and they will die as a terrorist organization before this is done.

You leftists forgot the following:

Bush ate with his mouth open as far as MSNBC's Sissy Matthews just stated. He also acted like a cowboy and a frat boy per Matthews. I just wonder how come the Socialist Italian Prime Minister Prodi can use a cell phone at the same dinner table. Is he ill mannered too maybe a frat boy.

Oh one more talking point, Bush created Hisbullshit (Hezbollah).

So when Clinton has oral sex in the Oval Office, it's "his personal business," but when Bush says "shit" to a friend in what he thought was private, it's "a sad day for America."
Rrrrrright.

I think the Demorats are in trouble- You have Howeard Dean taking the side of Hisbullshit against the Israelis. The last month or so, the Demorats have gotten no traction in the mid term election. In fact, in several Senate seats, they are now trailing (ie in NJ and MN). Maryland and PA are now tightening up.

Rev,

You're a contrarian, which is about as bad as being a used car sales man.

Israel isn't going to destroy anything, other thana few buildings, this is a pissing match, they know if they don't bear some teeth then all the other kids are going to think they are sissies, it's cyclical, I expect it to happen every 10-20 years until they decide it's more profitable to remove themselves from the occupied territories, and stop the BS stealing of water resources.

I fear this is just a ploy by Israel, since they know that Hezzbollah won't give up the troops, but I think the time for negotiations was over when they bombed Beirut's airport; Nationalism is about to kick in, and Israel has precious few choices now, either engage them in urban warfare or carpet bomb the whole of southern Lebanon, either way they are going to drag the rest of the ME in with them...somehow I think you're licking your lips at the prospect of that.

God(s) or no God(s) this isn't going to end well for anyone unless both sides grow the F*ck up, but one thing is for sure, Bush won't have the political capital to drag us into another war we have no exit from.

TEO: The occupation ends when the terrorist recognize Israel's right to exist and stop attacking. Its that simple. Every time Israel tries to withdraw from territory they just get attacked. You can't defeat an enemy who wants to destroy you by giving concessions. As for any stealing of Palestinain resources, the media never tires of telling us how the poor little Palestinians are being mistreated. The world community would never allow Israel to steal resources from the Palestinians. The allies of the Palestinians are to powerful.

The US does not need to get involved in this. If the US will stay out of the way, Israel will either demolish Hezbollah or they will severly degrade its capabilities. This should be a good thing for the free world.

The approach of the US to the Israeli/Arab conflict has been to largely act a neutral third party. As such, I don't think the US will get in the fight for Israel. What does concern me is in the coming days or perhaps weeks the international community will put pressure on the USA to force Israel into a cease fire. I'm concerned this could happen before Israel has the chance to finish off or degrade Hezbollah enough to make a difference. My hope and prayer is the Administration and the US government will have the cojones to stand up to the international community and do what is right. This will not be easy. The allies of the Palestinians are numerous and powerful and they control large amounts of oil, as well as large amounts of US debt.

tom,

what is 'sad' is the very real fact that we have a GOP puppet who was put in office 6 years ago whom possesses neither the mental acumen nor the social graces to be president of the most powerful country on the globe. moments like this - chewing with mouth open, swearing, complaining about the length of other speeches, complaining about wanting to get home - are indicative of a man who clearly relishes the power of his seat but wants not the responsibilities that come with it.

its clear to most americans and the rest of the world that our president, bluntly speaking, is an idiot and is really the laughing stock. while he likes to pull his charades with the press, its quite apparent the joke is really on him.

Sad day for America.

Wade

Posted by: Wade at July 17, 2006 12:11 PM

mmmmmmmmmmm.........nope! Sad day for Wade, TEO, Ash, etc. You guys really need to stop pretending you represent the majority........."YOU DON'T"!

Thank God the president is "human", I'd hate to see him have the "The God complex" alot of these dumocrats have these days!

B,

The Palestinian people want a two state solution just as much as the Israelis, the problem is you aren't going to get anything if they don't give up their occupied territories, and fall back to '67 boundries, until then the Palestinians have every right in the world to keep fighting.

I beg you, read up on the water dispute, and see who controls the water in the region, figure out why occupied territory in Golan Heights, and Southern Lebanon are so important in the riparian system there.

http://www.arij.org/pub/corissues/

Before they destroy Hezzbollah, they will have to destroy a lot of people, and most of Lebanon, the wider ME will not stand for this, and will get sucked into a regional battle...again

If Israel is smart I think they will keep their boots off the ground, continue to bomb the south (why are they bombing northern lebanon?) and make overtures for truce, they dont want a geurilla war against a people who are battle-hardened and filled with nationalistic pride.

Ha! Straight talk from President Bush! President Bush is right!

Wade said: "Liberals, it is time to once again come to the defense of your nation."
That is the funniest thing I have read today. When has a liberal every took up defense of the nation?

What a load of crap. All you libs spout is cowardice. The only bravery you exhibit is from behind the keyboard.

TEO,

"The Palestinian people want a two state solution just as much as the Israelis,"-TEO

Bwahaha! No, they don't. The Palestinian people want a one-state solution-theirs. They hate Jews and Israel. They want Israel destroyed, that's why they elected Hamas to govern them. Hamas is dedicated to Israel's utter destruction.

The Palestinian people want a two state solution just as much as the Israelis

That must be why they have been screaming for the obliteration of the "Zionist entity" for the last 50 years. Yea, that sounds like a "two state" solution. First state: Israel exists. Second state: Israel destroyed.

until then the Palestinians have every right in the world to keep fighting.

And they will continue to suffer the results of that fighting. Tel Aviv is a thriving metropolis. Palestine is rubble city.

I beg you, read up on the water dispute, and see who controls the water in the region, figure out why occupied territory in Golan Heights, and Southern Lebanon are so important in the riparian system there.

So how was it again that the Israelis came to control those areas? Did they sneak into them in the night time? Space ships?

Before they destroy Hezzbollah, they will have to destroy a lot of people, and most of Lebanon, the wider ME will not stand for this, and will get sucked into a regional battle...again

Nah, even the Arabs are turning against the Hezbollah idiots. Their only "supporters" are unable to provide anything now. It won't be long and Nasrallah will be dead and Hezbollah will be an artifact. And just as the Israeli ambassador to the UN told the Lebanese ambassador the other day, "If we succeed, you will be glad." Lebanon wants nothing more than to be rid of Hezbollah and Syria's influence.

If Israel is smart

Israel is very, very smart.

I think they will keep their boots off the ground

They've already sent troops into Lebanon for a brief excursion. Looks like a prelude to bigger actions.

continue to bomb the south (why are they bombing northern lebanon?)

To isolate it from Syria and any attempts to re-supply Hezbollah.

and make overtures for truce, they dont want a geurilla war against a people who are battle-hardened and filled with nationalistic pride.

Here's a clue for you. Winners in a conflict rarely, if ever, sue for truces, cease-fires or anything for that matter. They apply enough force to elicit a surrender from the other side, or its total destruction. Israel is in no mood for a truce. The minute they escalated the war, Gaza and Hamas were placed on the back burner. Israel would never have gotten into this fight if they didn't intend on winning it.

TEO: Everyone is already familiar with the pro Palestinian propaganda. When the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, in their native tounge, then negotiations on boundaries and even on water rights become possible. As many commentators have pointed it, if they ceased terrorism the US and other countries would force Israel back into the 1967 boundaries. Any valid complaints the Palestinians have will be discussed in the msm and the Israeli side will receive scant coverage if any. This is how it always has been and probably how it will be for the forseeable future. The reason we don't see as much anti-Israel coverage in the US, as some other countries is because the US has a free press and for such diatribes can't stand scrutiny.

I think we can agree that Israel probably does not want to put boots on the ground. I don't think they have enough. I think it should have become obvious to western governments that the size of their militaries needs to be increased.

With American actions sometimes its hard to tell if they were justified or not, however, with a samll country like Israel with no true allies it should be easy to figure out they are just fighting for their continued existence against an enemy who has more collective power than they do.

For international law to have any credibility, they will need to actively condemn the terrorists for their wanton targeting of civilians and work harder to get the terrorists to the negotiating table.

The Arabs can easily solve the refugee problem by recognizing Israel's right to exist and they have plenty of land and resources. It should be no problem for them to absorb the refugees.

Freedom,

Why do you insist on making stupid comments, you enjoy getting smacked back into reality, don't you...you're a masochist, aren't you?

over 70% of Palestinians see either a two state or bi-unity state in their best interest.

Palestinians voted for Hamas was because the options were more of the same from the PLO, or the group which has spent the past 20 years building schools, hospitals, and feeding the people, a vast majority of the Palestinian people are more concerned with making peace than war.

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no58.pdf

TEO,
Whether the Palestinian People want a two state solution, they elected a group, Hamas, that is committed to the destruction of Isreal. The abduction of the IDF corporal was by Hamas members that wanted to scuttle any agreements that were being negotiated to recognize Isreal's right to exist. The Hamas government has not been willing to reign in its own people.

As for Hizbollah and Lebanon, the problem is similar. Hezbollah has been elected to the Lebanese government, and then refused to make its fighters follow the agreements the government had entered into.

Isreal is capable of taking care of herself, and they will. Pray that the other actors in the area (Iran and Syria) get that message before the bombs hit them.

Rev,

Gotta get going, i'll be back in a bit to dissect your post.

"Being an atheist, I see no value in that statement. This ain't about god or God or gods. This is a fight to the death for Hezbollah and they will die as a terrorist organization before this is done."

Posted by: Reverend Scaramonga at July 17, 2006 02:23 PM

This is all going to end leaving you "shoot um up" Regressives with a serious anti-climax.
Hezzbollah will be in place at the end. Hamas will be there to, Isreal will have their soldiers and Bush will be talking to them and not shooting off his mouth, like he should have been doing a week ago. But you retarded republicans enjoy your fireworks for now. What you don't seem to get is ,this is why the American people want Democrates running Congress again. Calm rational cool action. Not hot heads like you guys.

Check this out. Liberals looked like their usual fools.

Leftorium,

Hezzbooah and Hamas are essentially ideas with zealots acting on those ideas. I think what the hotheads don't understand that it is a lot easier to bomb than to defeat an idea.

Their (those with a playground bully mentality) actions actually are counterproductive. How many more militant Muslims do you suspect there are in the world as a result of our actions in Iraq?

We have to understand that what terrorist groups say in English and what they say in Arabic are often different. Their standard operating procedures are "death to America", "death to Israel", "Israel will be wiped from the map," or "we will burn the roots of the anglo-saxon race." This war will end when the terrorists realize their goals of world domination cannot be achieved.

Israel can and will take care of itself. The best the US can do is to stay out of Israel's way and let them demolish Hezbollah. This will be good for people who want peace everywhere.

Leftorium, have you ever studied history? You might want to go back over the past 50 years or so of Isreali history and think about what you just posted.

Hezzbooah and Hamas are essentially ideas with zealots acting on those ideas.

Beirut US Marine Barracks bombing - 241 dead Marines.
US Embassy bombing by Hezzbollah - 63 people dead.
USS Cole Bombing - 17 people dead.
World Trade Center hit by two hijacked airplanes - 2,752 people dead.
Pentagon hit by hijacked airplane - 189 people dead.
Flight 93 hijacked and crashes in Pennsylvania - 40 people dead.
Bali Bombing - 202 people dead.
Madrid Train bombing - 190 people dead.
Bombay train bombing = 147 people dead.

Not all were Hezbollah or Hamas, but the bombers and hijackers were all of a single purpose.

I think what the hotheads don't understand that it is a lot easier to bomb than to defeat an idea.

Seems to be borne out by the list above - which is only a partial one.

How many more militant Muslims do you suspect there are in the world as a result of our actions in Iraq?

Don't know how you'd figure it out, but I'd say less - lots less. We've been killing them pretty fast. Not fast enough for my liking, but still pretty fast. Even the ragheads can't produce replacements fast enough, no matter how many of their "wives" they get pregnant. Still takes years.

Bush's plan for the middle east doesn't seem to be working.

The main issue is with spreading democracy to the Middle east... it won't work.

Sam Harris makes a great point about it in his book The End of Faith. Basically, when you get a group of people who have been blindly following a certain ideology for centuries, when given ballots, they will most likely vote for the enforcement of the ideology, thusly voting for their own opression (HAMAS in palestine anyone?).

We need two things in the middle east... a short-term benevolent dictator (to steer them in a more secular direction that has respect for individual rights) and for Wahabiism to be destroyed.

For that second one we would need to cut ties with Saudi Arabia... and that won't happen under Bush and can't happen when we need so much of their oil.

Georgia Frawg

Unfortunately I think you are right. Before we can change the direction of their culture, it must first be subdued and they must realize their goals cannot be achieved. The force structure we used in Iraq was only enough to remove the government. It was insuffiecent to subdue and pacify the country.

The short term dictator might work. We will need to be sure he does not betray us or attempt to do so. Wahabiism and other strains of Islamic Extremism are predatory. Perhaps a secular dictator can keep the forces of Islamic Extremism in check while we work with him to change the culture. This will be tricky. He may decide to form an alliance with these people against the West.

I agree wtih your points with one addition. The benevloent dicatator will need to be watched carefully so he does not betray us.

I hope we will cut our ties with Saudi Arabia. If this keeps up, the people will demand it and it won't matter whether the president wants to do it or not.

Third Eye Open,

You are so clueless! Reverend Scaramonga has already trashed your entire post so I'll just add one more thing. A poll showed that 77% of those "peaceful" Palestinians supported the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Almost as many Palestinians support the future kidnappings of Israeli civilians.

What's more offensive? Bush using a barnyard epithet, or Clinton saying, "Kiss this, honey!"?

Neither Scott. You posting it is.

Oh please, who doesn't swear now and then. I can't believe this is even in the news.

President Bush rocks!! He's the man!! He tells it like it is and he says the same thing in private as he says in public. No phonyness, no dishonesty, just honest George! It's not like he received a blow job from his mistress in the Oval Office and then lied to his wife, the american people on national television and under oath in a court of law, leading to his impeachment and disbarrment.

Guess Bush has spent too much time on his ranch hanging around with his steer. I wasn't that crazy about his father, when he was president, but at least Bush, Sr. was above reproach as a representative of our country. He had a great gift for diplomacy, and still does as an elder statesman. He was also smart enough to marshall support for the first gulf war, and when his advisors nixed going after Saddam in the '90s, he was smart enough to listen and realize the complexities of regime change.

Dubya does not have strong relationships with our allies (with the possible exception of Mr. Blair) and has to use intermediaries to talk to Iran, Syria, Palestine, Hamas and Hezbollah.

So how can we have any influence in the region diplomatically? And oh, wait, we can't take any action militarily because our military is STILL in Iraq and Afghanistan. What's left? Economically. Well, we've tried to starve out the democratically elected Hamas, but no dice there either.

I see the Star and Sickle gang could not wait to jump on this one, (meaning our Liberal friends here). I bet they put out their red and flags and danced around their May pole.
Remember Wade and Ash, all your efforts are for the Mother Land, and you will be remembered after the Revolution.

"Leftorium, have you ever studied history? You might want to go back over the past 50 years or so of Isreali history and think about what you just posted."

Posted by: kjstrouble at July 17, 2006 05:05 PM

Oh I have studied the history.
What, you think cause they won a couple of wars they are going "wipe out" the Persian opposition? Militarily they can fight well and defend themselves against any attacks but in the end they have not the resources nor the political support to crush Syria or Iran in any meaningful way. That would require Israeli troops occupying Iran and Syria. Good luck there, America is in no rush to help them with that idea. In the end this is Israel's new government overcompensating trying to look tough to it's neighbors. They did the wrong thing and in the end they along with Bush will come to the table for talks with Hezbollah. Sorry to everyone here who was getting a woody cause the bombs were falling. I know it must be exciting. Watching the news must take you back 3 years to your salad days in Iraq.

"Don't know how you'd figure it out, but I'd say less - lots less. We've been killing them pretty fast. Not fast enough for my liking, but still pretty fast. Even the ragheads can't produce replacements fast enough, no matter how many of their "wives" they get pregnant. Still takes years."

Posted by: Reverend Scaramonga at July 17, 2006 05:20 PM

Man I thought the new improved republican party had gotten past it's racist tendencies. Just goes to show you that a leopard can never change it's spots. How sad.

Rev,

“That must be why they have been screaming for the obliteration of the "Zionist entity" for the last 50 years.”

--Stop your mouth-breathing for a second, and understand the difference between what is seen as “Zionist entity” and the normal Jew to Palestinians, there is a difference there otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking a dual state/unity state solution.

“And they will continue to suffer the results of that fighting. Tel Aviv is a thriving metropolis. Palestine is rubble city.”

--First of all, Israel couldn’t exist without Palestinian laborers. Secondly, the occupation of lands which don’t belong to them, and the concentration of Arabs into what amounts to Ghettos is nothing to get your seed shooting at attention for, your cheering shows why people who hold your beliefs are dangerous when given power.

“So how was it again that the Israelis came to control those areas? Did they sneak into them in the night time? Space ships?”

--No, that would be the illegal occupation of lands which don’t belong to them, but thanks for asking.

“Lebanon wants nothing more than to be rid of Hezbollah and Syria's influence.”

--This is absolutely true, and should be accomplished, but when you invade another nation, blow up infrastructure which civilians use, and set them back 20 years in construction terms, then who do you think the populace is going to lash-out against. Israel is creating a fertile ground for more attacks, and another front for them to fight. You seem to overlook nationalism, and the power it carries when a civilian population is reaping “collateral damage” from an invading force.

“They've already sent troops into Lebanon for a brief excursion. Looks like a prelude to bigger actions.”

--You introduce an invading army into another Muslim country, and you’re going to invite the same situation we created in Iraq, sectarian strife in conjunction with the flooding in of foreign fighters, Israel is not going to bog itself down in an insurgent campaign, especially when the American public has no stomach to fight a second front for Israel when the inevitable consequence of that action comes to fruition; The American public has about had its fill of guerilla campaigns for this generation.

“To isolate it from Syria and any attempts to re-supply Hezbollah.”

--That is the most simplistic excuse for bombing civilian targets I have ever heard, not to mention raw BS. Their bombing campaign has hit totally unrelated sites in the North, including a Greek Orthodox area, and predominantly Sunni holdings, these people have nothing to do with Hezbollah, if you would bother to look at a map, you can see that Syria has no reason to use the completely out of the way north to try and re-supply Hezbollah, yet they [northern areas] are catching the ire of an overaggressive Israeli retribution campaign.

“Here's a clue for you. Winners in a conflict rarely, if ever, sue for truces, cease-fires or anything for that matter. They apply enough force to elicit a surrender from the other side, or its total destruction.”

--Would you mind citing the last time an insurgent force was routed by an invading force without completely razing the area? Shall we take a look at the recent debacles:

Afganistan; Algeria; Vietnam; Northern Ireland; Malaysia; First battle for Fallujah etc.

History doesn’t seem to be on the side of the invaders, buck-o

Leftorium

Israel does not need America's help to dismantle Hezbollah. What they need is for the USA to stay out of their way. In the coming days or possibly weeks, our "moderate" Arab "allies" along with Europe and the UN will likely pressure the US to pressure Israel to agree to a cease fire. The primary concern is that Israel will be pressured into a cease fire before they have significantly degraded Hezbollah's capability. I hope and pray the President and the American governemnt have the back bone to stand up to the pressure they will be under.

Once Hezbollah and the other terrorists understand that their goals of the destruction of Israel, America, and of world domination cannot be achieved it may be possible to negotiate a settlement. Any agreement we would reach right now would only be one of those "peace in our time" agreements that preceeded WWII.

Freedom,

If Mexicans were running across the border with M-16s, taking hostages would be the last thing on your mind, so don't pretend you know what you're talking about, go back to licking boots of the next lead-head who strokes your ego.

Just keep in mind, good people, that the S word will only be tolerated on this thread...

"If Mexicans were running across the border with M-16s,"-Third Eye Open

This is a total dodge. Must have touched a nerve, huh, TEO?

However, it's also partially true. Mexicans are running across the border with weapons. A lot of them.

... (idiotic insult deleted here) ... understand the difference between what is seen as “Zionist entity” and the normal Jew to Palestinians, there is a difference there otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking a dual state/unity state solution.

They're not. That's a lie that unfortunately too many fools have bought into, but their numbers are decreasing quickly.

“And they will continue to suffer the results of that fighting. Tel Aviv is a thriving metropolis. Palestine is rubble city.”

Israel couldn’t exist without Palestinian laborers.

Do you think that the people who work as laborers in Israel want a war? I don't. But there are plenty in Palestine who do and their name is Hamas.

Secondly, the occupation of lands which don’t belong to them, and the concentration of Arabs into what amounts to Ghettos is nothing to get your seed shooting at attention for, your cheering shows why people who hold your beliefs are dangerous when given power.

The occupation came as a response to being attacked. This is normally called the spoils of war. Israel has given back much of what it acquired, mostly as buffer zones, and little remains in their possession that they don't own. And as far as I can see, possession is nine-tenths of the law. The Israelis would give everything back to the Palis if they thought they would no longer have to live in constant fear of terrorist attacks, rocket attacks, and artillery shelling.

No, that would be the illegal occupation of lands which don’t belong to them, but thanks for asking.

Do you find this avoidance of the facts works for you often? Where, over at the DU? They occupied the land after being attacked and taking it in a war.

then who do you think the populace is going to lash-out against.

Well, history has shown that it isn't usually the liberators.

Israel is creating a fertile ground for more attacks,

...and before this they weren't ever attacked? Hahahaha!

and another front for them to fight.

Not to worry. The Israelis can handle themselves. Read a little history. Remember not too long ago when virtually every country in the ME attacked them? Six days later, they were all begging for a cease fire.

You seem to overlook nationalism, and the power it carries when a civilian population is reaping “collateral damage” from an invading force.

Casualties to civilians so far have been less than most terrorist bombing attacks. Lebanon might have some nationalism, but they sure didn't show it against the REAL occupiers - Syria and Hezbollah. They just caved in to them.

You introduce an invading army into another Muslim country, and you’re going to invite the same situation we created in Iraq, sectarian strife in conjunction with the flooding in of foreign fighters,

Shiites and Sunnis have been at each other's throats for centuries. We didn't create anything in Iraq, except an atmosphere to have democratic elections, a constitution, and a parliament in place of Saddam's dictatorship. Turns out that the Shiites, who Saddam murdered by the millions, finally saw their chance for revenge and went after the now-out-of-power Sunni. I think we should have just let them go git her done. Cuts down on the number of war crime trials you know. Lebanon has been embroiled in civil war before too, and might be again. Bankrupt cultures and their ancient grudges are nothing new in that part of the world.

Israel is not going to bog itself down

We finally might have found a point of agreement. Israel will not stop until the "insurgent" (code name for terrorist Hezbollah) forces are destroyed. And they surely don't need us to do it.

The American public has about had its fill of guerilla campaigns for this generation.

Don't be too sure. I'm part of that public and I'm not full. I'm ready for more. We learned a lot in Iraq. Let's put our newfound knowledge to work, say, in Iran!

That is the most simplistic excuse for bombing civilian targets I have ever heard,

How else do you knock out infrastructure, roads, bridges, and other means of supply?

Their bombing campaign has hit totally unrelated sites in the North,

Yea, yea. Israel is totally ignorant and doesn't know how to fight a war in the Middle East, and you do. Hahahaha!

Would you mind citing the last time an insurgent force was routed by an invading force without completely razing the area?

So what's wrong with razing? Ever hear of World War II? Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Okinawa? The pounding every major German city felt from round the clock bombing runs? Razing has its advantages.

History doesn’t seem to be on the side of the invaders

Ever heard of Normandy? Inchon? The Battle for the Pacific? Only then people who talked like you would likely have either been in a trench somewhere in France scared out of their wits, or in a federal penitentiary.

TEO: You ask to cite the last time an insurgency was routed without razing the entire area? I'm not sure if it has ever been done. This is not a pleasant thought, but I have thought from the beginning that this may need to be done. Bo one wants it but it may be the only way to win. If we don't stop these people now, they will raze our cities. During WWII the enemy had to be completely defeated. History teaches that when an intractable enemy is appeased, they will only come back stronger. We can reference Nazi Germany for an example. The best we will get from any negotiated settlement, at this time, is a "peace in our time" agreement like the one Neeville Chamberlin got.

Razing entire civilian populations is an unpleasent prospect but, if our civillization is to survive, it may need to be done. These are people who hide among civilians. It amy be the only way. If it comes down to this, we will want to be careful of the response of Russia and China.

We may be able to avoid razing civilian populations, if we can just get Russia and China to stop supporting these people!! In any event, to achieve victory a WWII type moblization may be required. We could have done this post 911 but we did not. If we set out to do this, it would at least convince our enemies that we are serious. Right now they are doing what they are doing because they honestly belive their goals are achievable.

Btw, Freedom is largely right about Mexico. I'm not sure about any kidnappings, however, they are coming accross the border with large amounts of weapons and they have been raping, robbing, and killing. Furthermore, Mexican drug gangs are conspiring to fix elections in border towns to serve their interest.

I am no expert in foreign policy. I do have a good grasp of history (as written by historians and not the Daily Kos). I also have a good grasp of the Constitution as I spent four years studying it... But what I do know with that limited knowledge is that throughout history, negotiating with terrorists has never worked.

The Romans eventually fell to the hordes. The British are still wrestling with Northern Ireland. France gave the US their Vietnam problem. And on and on. Why is it today; many people seem to say, TALK to Hizbollah and give them what they want and they'll act reasonably? I'm not saying that talking is bad, or engaging them in dialogue is bad, but when do people who have nothing to loose think about gaining ANYTHING through reason.

The palestinian people are starting to realize terrorism will not get them a state, but the larger arab muslim community (who doesn't care about the palenstinians) use their plight to further their cause.

Perhaps in the future, more and more people around the world will recognize you can achieve something without strapping a bomb on a teenager and blow up a bus full of innocent people.... or take a plane and crash it into an office building. The symptoms of both are the same. People who want to further their political ends by destroying lives and causing carnage.

Rev,

I thought that maybe some common sense was left to rattle around in that tin-can on your shoulders, but apparently I was wrong.

Your "plan" involves basically a massacre for the sick thrill of saying "we won", well it doesn't quite work that way, tonto.

Israel is not going to invade much of anything, they will get their thrills bombing, and eventually, just like any campaign where you don't put boots on the ground, they will come to the table and discuss the terms of disengagement. In the meantime they are going to alienate the Christian, Greek Orthodox, and other small minorities which were the real soldiers we need to turn out Syria for good. This will be just what Bush has found himself in, a shite-creek, and lacking a paddle.

By the way, you may be part of the 'Back-wash' brigade, but that doesn't mean anyone really cares what you think, and you aren't going to find many sympathetic ears for another war, while Bush can't finish the two he has on his plate. See you losers in November, and don't forget to bring your walking shoes, pink slips are gettin' handed out.

Rev,

You say that we learned alot in Iraq and you think we should put our newfound knowledge to work in Iran.

Militaries should be used to either A.) Subdue things, B.) Destroy things, or C.) Both A and B. The best use of a military is not to "liberate." After a country is subdued, one can then mold the country in a way they might choose to. For example, I would have molded Iraq and Afghanistan in such a way that they could not threaten America again. For example, after Japan and Germany were completely subdued at the end of WWII we could chart the course of the country and when they no longer desired to threaten us we transferred full soverignty to them. While we have made some progress in Afghanistan and Iraq, we did not commit enough force to the areas to completelyy subdue them and in some cases the forces we committed we did not use decisively enough.

If yu are still on this thread, I have a couple of questions for you.

1.) With one trident missle submarine the US could completely obliterate Iran in about an hour. Unlike the Iranian Mullahs who wish to destroy America and sudue the world under their banner of Islam NOBODY of any consequence in America wants to destroy Iran. Removing the regime could probably be done relatively easily. The problem becomes who do you replace the mullahs with?

2.)In the case of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance was capable of taking over secutity. I'm not aware that Iran has anyone like this. Whose army would you use to provide security for the new government? What I learned from Iraq is, to accomplish our very worthy goals, more boots on the ground would be helpful.

Willy,

I totally agree, we are in a very sticky situation, one of those catch-22s the old folks always talked about, or was it 23-skidoo...I can never remember, but either way this is going to turn ugly if Israel gets its panties in a bunch and decides to exercise their military might. I don't think that even a collection of arab states could really beat them back, but the aftermath could have ramifications for a century, and would pretty much guarantee a WWIII, and I don't know about some of the folks who post here, but I ain't hankerin' for a nuclear free-for-all, one errant launch from India or Pakistan in the chaos, and we are proper-fiznucked, so I think we need to get to doing what it is we do best, talk these nutjobs down from the ledge, and pretty darn quick-fast.

Violence is never the answer, infact it is violence in itself which shows the failures of humanity. I think we can take a page from Ghandi, and engage people like Hamas and Iran, and atleast air out grievences; Doesn't it seem that at the precise time when we SHOULD have an ambassador over there, we have decided against it?
While talking doesn't stop madmen, it does help win hearts and minds, which are the same hearts and minds which get duped into strapping suicide belts on.

We must pressure Syria each and every day.

We may very well be in WWIII.

Rev

I submitted a much more detailed response to your last post but it was outside of type key. You say we learned alot from Iraq. The main thing I learned from Iraq is that more boots on the ground would be helpful in achieving our worthy goals. Overthrowing the Iranian mullahs should be fairly easy for the US military. It can reduce the country to rubble in less than an hour. The problem becomes who you replace the regime with and whose boots on the ground you are going to use to provide security for the new government. Do you have any ideas? If you are stil on this thread, I would appreciate your thoughts.

I thought...

If you had a thought, it would be serial number 00001.

but apparently I was wrong.

About more things that you will ever realize...

Your "plan" involves basically a massacre for the sick thrill of saying "we won", well it doesn't quite work that way, tonto.

What plan? I don't have a plan. I just want some hot popcorn with butter so I can sit back and watch. And don't knock winning, its a good feeling, not that you libs would know what it feels like. Tonto? What happened to your famed "ethnic sensitivity?" Just another phony pile of steaming leftist moonbat dung, no doubt.

But but but, you just said they wouldn't engage. How could they disengage? This war stuff is pretty hard for you to understand, isn't it?

In the meantime they are going to alienate the Christian, Greek Orthodox, and other small minorities which were the real soldiers we need to turn out Syria for good.

More of your military and foreign policy expertise. Hahahaha!

This will be just what Bush has found himself in, a shite-creek, and lacking a paddle.

Your wishes are not the reality. Maybe if you click your heels together 3 times and say, "There's no place like home..."

By the way, you may be part of the 'Back-wash' brigade, but that doesn't mean anyone really cares what you think,

There you go again, projecting.

and you aren't going to find many sympathetic ears for another war, while Bush can't finish the two he has on his plate.

That kind of fantasy does it for you?

See you losers in November,

I can't wait. But promise me two things. First, when your worthless party gets its ass handed to it once again, please no whining about "stolen elections" or "recounts" or "hanging chads." And second, please go away until November. We will try to make do without your "wisdom" or as most would call it, "noise in the system."

and don't forget to bring your walking shoes, pink slips are gettin' handed out.

I agree. Murtha will be the first of many traitors on the unemployment lines.

TEO:
I disagree with the theory talking helps win over the minds of suicide bombers. We don't win these people over... because our logic cannot fight someone who's well versed in Islamic scripture saying killing innocent people will give you 70 virgins and a place next to the host of Heaven.

Talking to the leaders of Lebanon and encouraging them to stop supporting Hizbollah and Hamas, and we can prop them up as they work to building a lasting democracy... that's a smart conversation, but we cannot talk to a fanatic and hope to win their heart...we talk and they have the knife in hand to stab us in the back.

TEO: This is not about chest thumping to say we won. This is about the survival of our civilzation. There is no one we can talk to over there. These people are very similar to the Nazis who once ruled Germany. Sure they might give you a treaty. It would be something like what Neeville Chamberlin got.

You seem to think Israel is playing some sort of game. They are not. They are fighting for the survival of their country. Its a true pity that Lebanon has to be caught in the middle. They might have avoided this by actively working to reign in Hezbollah. This is no game.

Personally I don't care who wins the election, I want someone to win who understands that the Islamic Extremist/Marxist alliance is a survival threat to our country and will work to deal with it accordingly.

Wawilliyo

You natiled this far more articulately than I did, however, I will take this a step further. Islamic Extremist culture needs to be subdued then we can begin the long arduous process of reforming it. The bottom line is, Islamic Extremism and Western culture cannot peacefully exist side by side. Islamic Extremist culture is predatory. First we must understand that Islam and Western Judeo Chrisian culture are not morally equivalent.

We either get serious about dealing with this threat now or we do it after a dirty bomb is detonated in one of our cities. If this happens, no matter who POTUS happens to be at the time he or she would have to respond decisively. If it wanted to do so, the US military could destroy Iran. After the destrcution of an American city, this might be the response of the American military. Anyone who doesn't think we might not do this does not understand human nature. Of course NO ONE here wants it to come to this, therefore, it is far better to deal decisively with this threat now.

Of course we could quickly win the GWOT if we could get Russia and China to stop supporting the terrorist supporting states. Without Russian and Chinese support the terror supporting states would only have a fraction of the power they have now. They would become much easier to deal with.

So Rev. Scaramonga,

I see your back to sliming people over here again. Does this mean you're no longer thinking of suing Blogs for Bush to get them to stop linking to your site, or has your mama told you, there, there, stop crying and go back and play? Be careful out here, Scar. There are big boys here and you can get your widdle feelings hurt, just like the last time you went home crying.

...I would appreciate your thoughts.

Ok, let me see if I can answer your questions. As far as more boots on the ground, I'd say that might be part of a larger issue. I think we were way to cautious in our PC efforts to minimize collateral damage and civilian casualties and that caution was interpreted by the terrorists and insurgents as weakness. That encouraged them to attack us and use IED's and suicide bombs, etc. Some of that would likely have happened anyway, but the "shock and awe" part of the tactics wasn't shocking enough and did not inspire enough awe.

Secondly, we allowed foreigners to enter and leave the country pretty much at will. That is partly a "boots" problem and partly not enough airborne resources committed to seal off the borders. Had we done that early on, the dead-enders would have quickly run out of weapons and the jihadis would not have been able to enter the country to fight.

Also, a lesson learned - we should have put the fear of Allah into Syria early one in the fight. I contend that much of our difficulty was due to their sending fighters and weapons over the border without much challenge for a long time. A few supersonic low flying US jets over Assad's palace and that would have stopped. If not, time for some urban renewal in Damascus.

To summarize, quicker control of the borders, giving seriously underlined warnings to Syria of the explosive kinds, and not pussy-footing around in places like Mosul and Fallujah would have brought us to where we are now a lot sooner.

When it comes to Iran, the entire formula is different. Not that long ago, Iran was a thriving country and US ally. When the Shah was in power, Teheran was indistinguishable from most European cities with bars, night clubs, restaurants, and all the entertainment and night life you might want. Many Iranians traveled the world extensively and attended Western schools including US universities. We had major military installations in the country and the Shah supported the mutual friendship with the US. Many of those people are still living there under the iron fist of strict Muslim law. And most of them don't much care for it. There is the mullocracy and the Revolutionary Guard - which answers to the Ayotollah only and was created and functions to force compliance with Muslim dictates. As a military force they're zilch.

Given that reality, and a couple others like the fact that Iran is a net importer of gasoline for example, and you start to get the picture that they are pretty much paper tigers. And if their oppressive Revolutionary Guard is defeated and the mullahs head for the hills, the people will likely turn to the Shah's son for leadership - and he is willing to do that. I would personally like to see him elected rather than to go back to the imperial system, but he is extremely popular in Iran. So much so that he dare not set foot in the country for fear of being killed by the regime.

The country is run jointly by a screwball president who's main claim to fame is that he was one of the hostage-takers at the US Embassy during Jimmy Carter's worthless term and a religious fanatic. Not much of a challenge militarily. And Iran has had no experience in that arena since they took power in the 1970's.

One other thing that MUST be high on the list in Iran is to destroy their nuclear facilities completely. If we get into a fight with them, we MUST do that without fail. It will stop them cold and will send a chilling message to any other country contemplating taking that route.

The country of Iran was, before the Muslim radicals took control, a peaceful nation and a strong ally of the US. They are not Arabs but they are Persians. And the Arabs fear them. They can be our allies again.

We may very well be in WWIII.

Yep Ames that's the RNC talking point now. First heard Newt say it last night. You think this may compel Dubya to expand his "wartime powers"?

You think this may compel Dubya to expand his "wartime powers"?

One can only hope. So, Ass man, you a Canuck or not?

Rev,

Thanks for the reply to my post. I think I understand where you are coming from. Essentially your observations are the following:

1.) Due to PC concerns we did not operate as decisively as we should have during Operation Iraqi Freedom and the terrorists took this as a sign of weakness.

2.) Iran is different from Iraq because it was once a heavily pro Western country and the Shah's son who we think is pro-Western is popular in the country. If this is so, we should be able to establish a pro-Western country much easier than in Iraq. In contrast, Iraq has never been reliably pro Western. We did work with them to contain the Mullahs but that is about it. Iraq was never reliably pro Western. Since Iran was once pro Western and a popular exile is pro-Western there may just be a decent chance that we can get Iran to work with us.

2.) It also seems to be your contention that since Iran has little military experience since the Iran/Iraq war they should be easier to deal with. This is in contrast with the Iraqi military who had a great deal of experience. This was the Iran/Iraq war, the invasion of Kuwait, two Gulf Wars, and what several commentators referred to as a "low grade war" between the two Gulf Wars. Btw, it is interesting that the Shah is popular but he cannot set foot in the country. This is in contrast to the USA, the West, and Israel where people are allowed to oppose the rulers with impunity. As such, there is simply no one currently in Iran we can talk to and reach an honorable agreement with. Countries who follow Islamic Extremism or Marxism brook no dissent.

Btw, before we hit Iran's nuclear sites we will need to know where they are. It is my understanding that neither we nor Israel are quite sure where all of thme are.

My posts have been rather long lately. Please let me know, if I misunderstood any thing you wrote or if you think my analysis might be wrong in any way.

There should have been 3 points not a double 2 in my post!!

Ash

Bush can only initiate any war tiem powers with the consent of Congress. If the Democrats wish, they can fillibuster any laws. This is a Republic not a Monarchy. Of course if you assign powers to the President that he does not have, you make it much easier to vilify him.

It is my understanding that neither we nor Israel are quite sure where all of thme are.

I'd say that's probably a smokescreen. They know where they are alright. We can read the printing on a matchbook cover from space. Even if they're deep underground, they had to show signs of building them there and there have to be roads for supplies and the workers.

I used to work in nuclear power as a reactor operator on Naval ships. These reactors (and Iran would have to have a reactor), produce large amounts of heat which must be gotten rid of via cooling towers, or in the case of ships, into the ocean. The heat signature would be unmistakable.

There's plenty more ways they could find them from satellites; for example they produce a unique radiation signature as well. And all of that does not take into effect HUMINT - human intelligence, which we are certain to have.

I'd say we know right where they are within a few feet but don't want the Iranians to know it for sure. James Bond stuff for sure.

Poor delicate fragile Wade. If he came this undone at a crude but not profane word from Bush, he must have had a serious case of the vapors when John F'n Kerry was quoted, or when Kerry referred to his Secret Service guard as a "son of a bitch".

But it is so much easier to swoon over a casual comment made in what was thought to be private than to try to address the real issues.

Hizbollah wants Israel to not exist. They say so and they take action to make it so. Couldn't be any simpler to understand. Iran has promised a world without a United States. Somehow this doesn't seem to bother our resident, or rather invading, Libs. They are too busy reaching for the smelling salts because Bush is blunt.

Israel has given back Gaza and southern Lebanon and is still under attack. They know what the hanky-fluttering libs here still can't grasp---that there is one thing, and one thing only, that radical Islam understands, and that is violence. Talking to a terrorist is like talking to-----well, kind of like talking to Ash. No matter how right you are, no matter how clear you are, it will simply not get through.

Speaking of ashinine---what's with the gay-bashing, ash? Seems like all of a sudden you are preoccupied with homosexuality. Remember, yours is the party of tolerance, liberalism, and diversity. Don't go all Falwell on your fellow travellers, now. I know you were recently bragging about being a 'womanizer'---methinks thou dost protesteth too much.

This thread amuses me... why are we looking back 50 years? How about we look back 500 years? Maybe 5000 years?

The Middle East has been at war just about as long as the first two guys got there and discovered that if you point the sharp end of a stick a the other guy you can make him do what you want him to do.

What fuels the fire? Hate, it has been driven so deep into the people of the region's area that they are willing to strap bombs onto themselves and blow up bus stations to kill people that otherwise might have been their neighbors.

Thinking that "talking it out" or even "going to war" will resolve the issues there is just crazy.

As for Bush uttering the "S word." What does it matter? Who here has not said an "offensive word" to their friends when talking about the actions of a third party (sure in this case it is two world leaders) but it certainly was more of a off the cuff remark then anything that should be found o