For part of your post I think that you confuse religion and community. I don't purport to go about life on my own, but I don't feel "overwhelmed" because I don't have a church to go to.

Secondly, it is folly to believe that religion is the only place that we get our "rules." In fact, it was a middle eastern tyrant, Hammurabi, (before God gave the ten commandments to the Jews) who gave us the concept of punishments that are proportionate to the crimes for which they are given (The bible just says they deserve death).

Believe it or not, millions of people managed both not to kill eachother and not have sex with goats while not being "given rules by the religious" (Confucionists are a good example). In fact, people decided that things like murder were wrong years before God supposedly said "Thou shalt not kill."

I am not going to say that religion is necessarily bad. Muslim scholars gave us (westerners) tremendous advancements in mathematics (like our numbers, for example) and really made the Rennaisance possible. Christians have also given the world many advancements in exploration and, ironically enough, science (that is, science that doesn't conflict with the bible).

I am also not going to say that religion is necessarily good. It brought us things like torture techniques (perfected during one of the various Christian inquisitions), the majority of the wars throughout history, and the reason for most of the strife in the middle east and southeast asia (not to mention other beautiful things).

The fact of the matter is, whatever who whoever we get our rules from, we live in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious society. In order for our Government to be a truly non-biased arbiter and protector of our people (based on its own laws), it must be void of direct ties with any specific religious doctrine. People can still put their naitivity scenes on display, but the government should only enforce its own laws that protect the integrity of all people.

Besides, if we are going to honor the basis of our laws and legal system, we should honor them all equally. That would mean giving Hammurabi, Confucious, Aristotle, ancient Greeks, ancient Romans, a few dead English Kings, and a few other various French and German figures.

Are you ready to build that many statues?

Mark,

I'm glad to see you're finally asking the important question..."Why Religion" because only through asking that can you finally see there is no good answer...

Your answer of "because we can't do it alone" is absurd and Georgia made some excellent points as to why...

Keep asking Mark, questioning “why” is the poison pill of religion and it's the only way you free youself from it

That was weird... I refreshed the page and it reposted my comment...

Sorry about that...

Mark - you were Navy if I remember. This post was a good example of giving someone enough rope. Good.

Georgia Frawg

Many of us share your thoughts on religion. Thanks for an excellent, concise post.

When believers start spouting crap about their religion being the only true religion, my attention goes elsewhere as I know I'm dealing with someone who is surely lacking in reasoning power.

Opus,

Just to clarify - I asked this question the first time about 25 years ago, and its been about 20 years since I came up with the answer provided in this blog. To try and shake me from religion, Opus, is to try and shake the stars out of the sky. You seem to be under the illusion that people who believe in God are people who don't question - actually, the truest believers are those who asked the most difficult questions...they, unlike some, have merely accepted the answer. You, on the other hand, haven't even started asking the questions.

Keep thinking about it, though - if you really are a person who questions (rather than somebody who merely pretends to question), then eventually you'll accept the answer...and that will be a glorious thing.

Mark,

I agree. That religion is very much a part of everyones everyday lives, or at least it should be, I know it is a very important part in my life!, in example; people of all walks of life, have faith everyday, i,e. the car will be there when we need it, the floor will hold us up, etc,etc.

As you say, "but at the end of the day, we can't get through the day unless thousands of people help us", Very true!, in the sense others help us in our everyday walk, depending on what it is we are following after, (in religious terms)!!

But, it's not so much the religion itself; There are many different religions, many different idols, gods, etc, etc.

Ok, Now, What It's more about is, Obeying Gods word!, doing as He would have us to do!!

God! is the glue that binds us together, as one family, and there are believers in every faith of life, But, Christ! is the only man!!, who came once for all!, and He and His Father are ONE, He is the Holy Ghost also; The TRINITY! as you have read!!

Jude the brother of James: wrote about those, who help to keep us from stumbling, and help to keep us in the straight and narrow way!!

Brothers! in Christ!!

Call to persevere!

Jude : 24-25

"To him who is able* to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence* without fault* and with great joy-- to the only God* our Savior be glory, majesty, power, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore*! Amen*

Why Jesus? Because He's the only one who can save us, and snatch us from everlasting fire and darkness!!

Great thread Mark! :) Keep heaping it on them!!

Jeremiah

Georgia,

Religion is the glue of community - without religion, you don't have community. Even Confucious based his writings upon the moral precepts built up in China in the centuries before he developed his philosophy. An example:

It is seldom that a man of filial piety and brotherly love would be inclined to offend those above. There has not been a man inclined to cause disorder without the inclination to offend those above. With the roots established, the way grows. Are filial piety and brotherly love not the roots of benevolence?

This was just a random selection of Confucious I pulled off the web - I had never seen this quote before, but knew I would find something like it because I am generally familiar with the philosophy of Confucious. This is simply shot through with reference to universal - ie, God-given - morality. And all Confucious was attempting to do was codify the already existing laws of God - ie, to set down firmly the Rules which all must obey because without such obedience, society is impossible. While not strictly the founder of a religion, his followers took on a quasi-religious order.

According to archeology, there has never been a human society which did not have reference to a supernatural sanction for human behaviour. You can assert all you want that Hammurabi wrote his laws before Moses received the Ten Commandments, but if you check you'll also see that Hammurabi claimed to have received his laws from a god - once again, providing supernatural sanction for the laws - ie, a religion with which to propagate good behaviour among his people.

The laws either come from God, or they are nothing at all and only to be obeyed as long as it is expedient for any given person to do so. You are either under the Authority of the Lord on high, or you are at the mercy of whomever is strongest. If you accept Authority, then you have to have a body of religious thought and practice to instruct the young in to this Authority.

You can also lay all the sins you wish at the feet of religion, but the plain fact of the matter will remain that the 20th century, alone, saw far more bloodshed and mayhem at the hands of the deliberately non-religious than there ever was at the hands of those who claimed religion as a sanction for sin. If you want to see what a society freed from religion is like, then look at Soviet Russia, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Hitler's Germany.

You live, day by day, under the protection of a Judeo-Christian society sustained entirely by those who actually believe - without us, you'd be at the mercy of the wolves in human guise who are just waiting to take you and all you have the moment the guard of the religious is down.

Canadian,

And just why would my conviction that my faith is the correct one be evidence of lack of reasoning? Is there no chance that I reasoned myself in to faith?

Jeremiah,

I figure if we at least get them thinking, then they'll at least be better off than before...

Umm... once again religion on a political blog. Oh sure I know it's Mark's blog and all and he can put whatever he wants but I have to wonder why. As I've said before to me religion is between you and your God and nobody else. What's the point in debating over it?

Do religions have an impact on our communities? Yes.

Have they been at the root of many of our earliest civilizations? Yep.

Have they been blamed as the cause of many conflicts? Yes again.

Who are the ones who cause the arguments between different religious views? That's the question. Be it believer or unbeliever it is those who try to impose their views or attack someone elses views that cause the issues.

Gozer,

I bring it up because it is intensely part of the political debate - whether we like it or not, the place of religion is clearly up for debate in our politics, and one view or the other will prevail.

Mark,

it has taken you 20 year and all you could come up with was Georgia's def. of a community?

Your wrong Mark, straight and simple, religion relishes the idea of giving up on the search for knowledge you only have to look as far as Kansas for that....

How arrogant can you be to think that one of the main tenants of your faith is to convert others while maintaining that it would be impossible to move you away from those beliefs...You said it yourself, throughout time there has been no human cultur void of a supernatural authority...how many of those religions lasted and how many can be discredited as superstition? Why do you continue to think that your imaginary friend is better then mine or anyone else’s...?

You’re coming around Mark, try this, take it all literally or not at all…problem is if you take it all literally then you’re a fool, don’t take it all literally and you’re a hypocrite…which will it be?

OPUS THIS IS FOR YOU, MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!
..................................................

A YOUNG MANS HINDU BELIEFS IN QUESTION!!
..................................................

During my third year in high school I experienced an increasingly deep inner conflict. My growing awareness of God as the Creator, Separate and distinct from the universe He had made, contradicted the Hindu concept that god was everything, that the Creator and the Creation were one and the same. If there was one Reality, then Brahman was evil as well as good, death as well as life, hatred as well as love. That made everything meaningless, life an absurdity. It was not easy to maintain both one's sanity and that good and evil, love and hate, life and death were One reality.

One day a friend of my cousin Shanti, whose name was Molli, came by to visit. She asked me about whether I found Hinduism fulfilling. Trying to hide my emptiness, I lied and told her I was very happy and that my religion was the Truth. She listened patiently to my pompous and sometimes arrogant pronouncements. Without argueing, she exposed my emptiness gently with politely phrased questions.

She told me that Jesus had brought her close to God. She also said that God is a God of love and that He desires us to be close to Him. As appealing as this sounded to me, I stubbornly resisted, not willing to surrender my Hindu roots.

Still, I found myself asking, "What makes you so happy? You must have been doing alot of meditation."

"I use to" Molli responded, "but not anymore. Jesus has given me a peace and joy that I never knew before. " Then she said, "Rabi, You don't seem very happy. Are you?"

I lowered my voice: "I'm not happy. I wish I had your joy." Was I saying this?

"My joy is because my sins are forgiven," Said Molli," Peace and joy come from Christ, through really knowing HIm."

Well the story goes on to say that little Rabi gave up his sins to Jesus Christ and became a New Creature in Him!

Someone asked him: "Did Jesus really change your life?" He smiled broadly and said " He sure did! Everything is different now."
..................................................

Opus, Would you like to know the happiness that ONLY Jesus can give??

Jesus is knocking, won't you open the door and let him in?

Jeremiah

Jeremiah, thanks once again for speaking the truth. I believe the end times are upon us, so keep speaking truth to powerless! I greatly respect what you say. Never ever stop!!!

Opus,

It is difficult for you and I to talk because you are so desperately clinging to that which man has set up, rather than turning towards that which is genuinely real - the fact of all facts, the most solid thing in the Universe.

When you get right down to it, all we ever choose is God, or man - we will worship one, or the other. I have turned towards God, you are still firmly turned towards man. You will, I believe, turn towards God in the by and by - your mind is working just too closely in the paths mine worked once upon a time. You're actually all set to go, you just lack that last nudge to comprehend the truth. I can't provide it,unfortunately, as the political divide has made you entirely unreceptive to what I have to say - but that nudge will come.

Meanwhile, I shall continue to pray for you.

Jeremiah

I've found God, I've found true happiness, I don't need the approval of an idol propped up to promote one point of view, I hope some day you can see that you too can find happiness within yourself and your relationship with God and realize everything else is just..."fluff"

Mark,

Why do you keep assuming I don't turn to God? the reason we don't see eye to eye is that I was able to find God, you think you've found Him through a hierarchal organization. Mine’s a question of spirituality, your’s is one on acceptance. You’re trapped in your faith only because it won't allow any questioning of it...have blind faith or else...there is no questioning...

I'm wondering Mark, do you take it all literally?

Mark, Jeremiah, Bob Arctor, etc., etc.

You can worship whatever God or spirit you wish. I have no problem, whatsoever, with that.

But do not tell me whatever God or spirit I wish to worship is wrong. That, I do have a problem with. Take a look around at the violence erupting even as we speak. Religious zealots insisting they have the keys to paradise, each one maintaining their religion is the one and only true religion. Everyone else needs to be converted, by any means, violent or otherwise.

As you know, there is one religion still waiting for its Messiah to appear. Since they do not accept Jesus as their savior, what will become of that nation when the end comes? - Mark, Jeremiah, anyone?

Opus,

Every last word of it - who is smarter, after all, you or the collected wisdom of thousands of people over thousands of years?

Have you ever read "The Great Divorce"? The Episcopal Ghost is you in spades...

Opus,

Remember!

We have faith ONLY through things we CANNOT SEE!!

If you can see it, there is no room for faith!!

Because earthly things will pass away!!

Earthly things will be destroyed!!

ONLY those who believe in Christ Jesus will live!!

Why you ask? Because HE LIVES!!

JESUS IS YOUR HOPE!!

JESUS SAYS: I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!

YOU BELIEVE IN MY FATHER, BELIEVE IN ME LIKEWISE!!

NO ONE!! GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS!!
..................................................

Opus, Do you know Jesus?

Jeremiah

Canadian,

Any system of belief which holds to a Creator who demands certain forms of behaviour from his creatures is at least to some extent correct - but just as there is only one God, so there is only one truth, and thus there is to be one set of beliefs which is more in accord with truth than any other. As for me, I'm a Christian - this means that I hold that the Christian view of it all is the most correct.

I have no right or power to compell you to believe as I do - I pray that all hearts are opened to the truth.

But to get us a bit back on topic - you can say, along with our friend Opus, that to subscribe to a certain theology is to limit one's self, to cut one's self off from possibility. An arguable point, but not one of real merit - to set yourself up as the arbiter of what is right and wrong, even if just for yourself, is to ensure that you will fall in to massive and destructive error. We are made for a communal life - each of us to help the other.

Each helping the other does not just mean me providing you food and shelter when you are in a bad economic fix - no, my helping you is a much larger thing than that, as is your helping me. We must help each other to not only be well in the physical sense, but in the moral sense, too. It does me, nor you, any good to feed a poor man who then goes off to rob a liquor store to get money for drugs - unless we help him in all ways, we haven't helped him at all.

In religion, each of them at least partially true, one of them completely true, we have the only mechanism known which can actually help both the physical and the moral (or spiritual, if you prefer).

The huge problem of our modern times is that we want men to be honest, but we don't care if they are faithful; we want men to be responsible, but we don't care if they are irresponsible; we want me to be brave, but cowardice is no shame; we want men to be generous, but we don't punish them for being lazy.

You're trying to have half a society - a society which strictly adheres just to those moral precepts you like, but doesn't bother with those you find irksome. Well, it doesn't work that way - it is all, or nothing. In the end, in the most literal sense - you will either attain to God, or you will attain to nothing.

"As you know, there is one religion still waiting for its Messiah to appear. Since they do not accept Jesus as their savior, what will become of that nation when the end comes?"
..................................................

Canadian Observer,

The apostle peter has given me the answer,

The coming day of the Lord.

2 peter chapter 3.

"Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say,
"Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word* the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time deluged and destroyed.
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.
That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."

Jeremiah

Mark, a quick question, but one that has great merit I think. You keep saying that there is only ONE true religion, which I think might be the problem that causes so much friction. The ARROGANCE of man to believe that whatever he thinks is the ONLY true answer. This is shown in many religions, from Christianity to Islam to even many scientists who feel there to be no questioning of "facts."

However, you make an interesting point and I give you credit to admitting that all religions have elements of truth in them. But here is the question of all questions...

Can ALL religons have elements of truth, but also elements of fiction.

Mark, what if we DO NOT know the answer yet? what if we may NEVER know the truth?

The Universe is a BIG place, and human beings have only been around a little while in the great scheme of things. Are we SO arrogant that we assume we know the answer, when we are but dust motes in the eyes of the Universe?

Is it not possible that we cannot even begin to imagine what force that might control the Universe
could be like? Are we so arrogant that we presume to know the mind of God?

Give it a hundred years, Mark, or a thousand. THEN see what the human race might understand about the workings of the Universe. Even then we will probably just be scratching the metaphysical surface of truth.

Until then, why not stop fighting about whose god has the biggest family jewels and bond TOGETHER as a HUMAN race to help each other and to always stay inquisitive in a search for truth.

One of the worst human sins is Pride, and if we choose to REALLY love our neighbor, instead of just trying to prove that we are right, we might find that EVERYONE has some insight into God and the Universe. ALL people can understand parts of truth, and ALL people can give us guidance on our journey through life.

others, like Danforth, holding that he's an "I'm ok, you're ok" retailer of psycho-babble about all ideas being welcome.

Amen, brother. I honestly have more respect for an atheist or an islamofascist than an "ecumenicialist." Pick a belief, any belief, no matter how misguided, and show some gumption and stick to it.

"Jeremiah, thanks once again for speaking the truth. I believe the end times are upon us, so keep speaking truth to powerless! I greatly respect what you say. Never ever stop!!!"
..................................................

Bob Arctor,

I really appreciate that!!

:)

I can only say that I am thankful to mark & matt for allowing me the oppurtunity to share the bible here!!

MY MISSION STATEMENT:

:) TO WIN THE LOST!!:)

"This is the day that the lord hath made, let us rejoice and be glad in it!!
:)

Jeremiah

Mark-

Are you a proponant of Divine Command Theory?

In a nut shell, it states that actions are moral in so far as God commands us to do them; it also states that actions are immoral in so far as God commands us not to do them.

I am not saying that religion is all bad... it has been used for evil in the past, but I also gave some examples of the good that religion has done for us.

If you want to find a good example of a non-religious community, turn to nature. Most animals generally don't kill eachother unless threatened, generally don't have sex with other species, and usually aren't gay. Many mammals also do other things such as care for eachother's young and defend other, more vunerable members of their community. Generally, these animals don't profess to believe in God (or any religion for that manner).

Mark-

Are you a proponant of Divine Command Theory?

In a nut shell, it states that actions are moral in so far as God commands us to do them; it also states that actions are immoral in so far as God commands us not to do them.

I am not saying that religion is all bad... it has been used for evil in the past, but I also gave some examples of the good that religion has done for us.

If you want to find a good example of a non-religious community, turn to nature. Most animals generally don't kill eachother unless threatened, generally don't have sex with other species, and usually aren't gay. Many mammals also do other things such as care for eachother's young and defend other, more vunerable members of their community. Generally, these animals don't profess to believe in God (or any religion for that manner).

Georgia,

Get with REALITY, MAN!!

Like!,I mean, really dude!!, why is man so smart???

Uh, Must be someone!, a LOT smarter than man!!

Uh, Why are animals so dumb???

Uh,Animals DO NOT have a spirit, or soul, and they were created lower than man!!

Uh, How did they get here???

By HIM!, Who?; GOD, they were created; and, for HIS pleasure, they were created!

Why are they here???

God gave man animals; for FOOD, dude!

*sighs*YAAAAAAY, We passed the test!!!

Jeremiah

Georgia,

Divine command theory? I have to admit I've never heard of such - if what you mean is that I believe that God commands what is best for us and that only our rebellion makes things bad, then I'll give you a "yes" on that.

In Christian theology what God wants to give us is everything we could possibly want - just for the asking, really. Don't have to pay for it, don't have to jump through hoops...just ask, and receive. Pretty neat deal, if you ask me.

The problem comes in when people want to be as gods - whether we worship ourselves, our Nature, or some idea, we are in all cases turning away from God and trying to have some little corner of our lives which is not God, but only ourselves, alone.

Well, that doesn't work - All there is of you is from God; He gave it all to you, and it is an absurdity for you, or anyone else, to try and say to God, in effect, "love ya, big guy, but I want this just for me". Doesn't work that way - He has freely given you things you never earned, and the only thing you can do with it and be happy and worthwhile is to give it all away. Lewis had it best - its like a game where you pass a ball from person to person, and the only time you lose points is where you try to hold on to the ball.

I am, just to be clear about this, a pretty horrible person - I am, like all of us save a few saints, self-centered, greedy, egotistical, proud, profane, dishonest, etc, etc, etc. I am like this because I am a child of wrath, inheritor of the original sin. That sin is now excused, as are all sins - but the affects of the sins are still there and I cannot, by my own efforts, escape the affects.

What I am looking forward to is being made whole - being made a real man, as God intended us to be, but we rejected and rebelled against. It will not be my own efforts which will make me whole, but the freely granted grace of God - all I have to do on my part is turn towards God, and ask him to make me what I am supposed to be.

In the end, all that God has commanded is a set of rules whereby we can volunteer to have everything our heart's desire.

"As you know, there is one religion still waiting for its Messiah to appear. Since they do not accept Jesus as their savior, what will become of that nation when the end comes?"

Jeremiah

The answer you gave to the above question is obtuse and although I've read your response carefully it is still not clear what would happen to those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior at the 'coming day of the Lord'.

Perhaps you could provide your own interpretation
in lieu of the bible scriptures. Thank you so much.

Canadian Observer,

It is obvious that atheists have no regard for what the Lord has done for them, He has shown His majesty in all creation, through the vastness of the sea, to the expanse of the sky!!!

How much longer will mankind hold out!!

The Lord says; "Behold, I am coming soon!* My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done."

Then it goes on to say, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have right* to the tree of life* and may go through the gates into the city!"

In fact, the Lord says, "But the cowardly, THE
UN-BELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars* -- Their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death!!

Now! My interpretation here is EVERYONE, Will die a physical death, as it is written, (It was the penalty for SIN) as in all people; meaning everyone from beginning to end, HAVE! and WILL!, experienced and will experience the first death, Which of course is death of our bodies in the flesh, the bodies that we feel, and touch, and see with, which is natural!!

Now!, The second death, Is ONLY, for the group of individuals who deny that, JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, The second death is, DEATH OF THE SPIRIT, meaning; Everlasting seperation from GOD!!

Also, for those who profess to know Jesus Christ, Yet do not do what his word tells them to do, will also experience the second death!!

So........In referance to your question CO.

What will happen to those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior, at the coming day of the Lord?

They will be eternally seperated from Jesus, in hell!!
..................................................
Message to those who do not believe!!!

It would be a great service to, and Bless the Almighty, to see you accept His Son Jesus christ TODAY, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!

TRUST AND OBEY!!, FOR THERE'S NO OTHER WAY, TO BE HAPPY IN JESUS!!

That's the best I can tell you!!

There's NO OTHER! explanation needed!!

Jeremiah

Canadian Observer,

I would like for you to read the book of JUDE, It's just a short book, 25 verses long.

It tells about who God will judge, and previous examples set before us, to show us who will be cast down!!

Jeremiah

Amazing how this turned from a discussion of religion and spirituality to a conclusion that sends at least 2/3s of the population to hell. Of course although 80% or so of Americans claim they are Christians, only 50% of those are regular church goers so depending on your definition of religious, that just ups the crowding in hell. Of course I am probably confusing "church going" and "religious" and "Christian" so... These "judgments" of the religious and who's side God is on, is a cornerstone of world and regional conflict. I can not imagine how the Hindu's keep their 10,000 gods straight when most people cannot keep one consistent.

I could never sort through the discrepancies stated by the religious and people who quote the bible to support this and that position on things like the death penalty, offensive war making, buying cars on Sunday, or eating this and that, etc., so I'll try to stick with the golden rule (which is hard enough) and sit and watch the religious demonstrate their disregard of their "rules". These precious rules seem to be broken when it is convenient for personal wealth, power, pleasure, etc. and I wonder how a God can be serious about rewarding that behavior in the afterlife and not reward anyone, anywhere, at anytime who are not "Christian."

To find this discussion on a Blog for Bush is most interesting.

modernone,

Yes, Hypocrites too!!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah

Modernone has raised many interesting & legitimate points. Would you care to address any one of them?

Also, you said:

So........In referance to your question CO.

What will happen to those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior, at the coming day of the Lord?

They will be eternally seperated from Jesus, in hell!!......

So, Jeremiah, according to your interpretation, this is what the Israeli people, among countless others, have as their eternal destination?

The fundamental precept that I believe most strongly is this: God created heaven and earth and everything in it. And in that creation he set down the natural order of things and the laws that govern them. Thus, by revealing the laws that govern the natural order of things one reveals God at the same time (whether one appreciates it or not).

One corollary that falls out of that precept is that morality is, in a sense, built into the natural order of things. For example, rape and incest are not only immoral, they are also dysfunctional because they have deleterious effects on society and/or progeny. Likewise, murder, theft, yada yada yada.

In trying to make sense of one's existence there are three basic approaches one can take: (1) a top-down approach, wherein one emphasizes the dogma of a given religion, church, or sect with little or no reference to the natural order of things. (2) a bottom-up approach wherein one emphasizes natural order of things with little or no reference to (or belief in) the entity that set them in motion. (3) a unified approach where one relies on one's understanding of religious teachings in order to illuminate the natural order, and vice versa.

IMHO, the unified approach is the correct one because it relies on all your human faculties equally -- faith (the heart, for lack of a better word) and mind (or logic, for lack of a better word) are treated as one, with neither in ascendance. The other two will lead you into blind alleys where the most apalling things can happen in the name of purity and righteousness. That's not to say that apalling things CAN'T happen if you try to follow the unified approach, but at least in it there is some hope that at some point you'll realize that you can't blame your mistakes on purity and righteousness. You alone are responsible. According to the unified approach, faith illuminates, it does not justify.

That's just a thumbnail sketch and I'm sure I didn't do it justice. But I should add that in any set of dogma from any church or sect, contradictions abound. For example, in Christianity there is this notion of the Holy Trinity, which when I was a kid made no sense to me at all -- if God is One, what's this Trinity stuff? Likewise, in science (which is, after all, the study of natural laws), uncertainties and contradictions abound. They abound not only WITHIN a given field, but especially across them. For example, progress in developmental biology has made invitro fertilization possible, and is on the brink of making human cloning possible, but those possibilities say nothing about the societal impact they have or will have. In either case, one has to embrace the apparent contradictions if one is to attempt to a fuller, more complete understanding.

The present topic was sparked by a comment by Sen. Danforth, the most controversial sentence was this: "We have always, always seen ourselves as the middle way. We have always seen ourselves as the place where all kinds of people can come together around the same altar and say the same liturgy and have all kinds of different views, all kinds of political views, theological views." Personally, I think he overstated his case. But what he was suggesting is that God's will is unknowable, and thus doubt and questioning are appropriate -- necessary, in fact -- for believers. If you are interested in really knowing what he thinks, this is a good place to start. Or you can read one of his books. His basic contention is this: "There's a difference between having positions on one hand, and saying `my position is God's position`." The latter is the worst kind of hubris imaginable.

Earlier in this thread Jeremiah graced us with the epistle of 2 peter chapter 3. In it Peter beseeched Christ's followers to be spotless, blameless and at peace with Him. That is a personal choice. And that, to me, is what Christianity is all about. Trying to force one's faith on others negates the whole notion of free will, IMHO. Mark said, "Why religion? My answer is fairly simple: Because you can't do it alone." It seems to me he ignores the fact that in the beginning, the only Christian was Christ himself. And Christ, through Matthew, said this: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...." (Matthew 6:5-6). Christ never forced His word on anyone -- all were eligible, but none were bound. And it is always a personal choice, and only a personal choice. IMHO, a true Christian influences others by personal animus -- by example, in other words -- not by force. Force, while necessary sometimes in the corporal realm, is anathema to Christianity. Properly applied (at least in my view) the Christian warrior concept is all about an internal struggle -- a struggle within each and every person. It is not about a struggle between communities or religions. Said in another way, people are capable of being saved, not nations (or churches).

The fundamental precept that I believe most strongly is this: God created heaven and earth and everything in it. And in that creation he set down the natural order of things and the laws that govern them. Thus, by revealing the laws that govern the natural order of things one reveals God at the same time (whether one appreciates it or not).

One corollary that falls out of that precept is that morality is, in a sense, built into the natural order of things. For example, rape and incest are not only immoral, they are also dysfunctional because they have deleterious effects on society and/or progeny. Likewise, murder, theft, yada yada yada.

In trying to make sense of one's existence there are three basic approaches one can take: (1) a top-down approach, wherein one emphasizes the dogma of a given religion, church, or sect with little or no reference to the natural order of things. (2) a bottom-up approach wherein one emphasizes natural order of things with little or no reference to (or belief in) the entity that set them in motion. (3) a unified approach where one relies on one's understanding of religious teachings in order to illuminate the natural order, and vice versa.

IMHO, the unified approach is the correct one because it relies on all your human faculties equally -- faith (the heart, for lack of a better word) and mind (or logic, for lack of a better word) are treated as one, with neither in ascendance. The other two will lead you into blind alleys where the most apalling things can happen in the name of purity and righteousness. That's not to say that apalling things CAN'T happen if you try to follow the unified approach, but at least in it there is some hope that at some point you'll realize that you can't blame your mistakes on purity and righteousness. You alone are responsible. According to the unified approach, faith illuminates, it does not justify.

That's just a thumbnail sketch and I'm sure I didn't do it justice. But I should add that in any set of dogma from any church or sect, contradictions abound. For example, in Christianity there is this notion of the Holy Trinity, which when I was a kid made no sense to me at all -- if God is One, what's this Trinity stuff? Likewise, in science (which is, after all, the study of natural laws), uncertainties and contradictions abound. They abound not only WITHIN a given field, but especially across them. For example, progress in developmental biology has made invitro fertilization possible, and is on the brink of making human cloning possible, but those possibilities say nothing about the societal impact they have or will have. In either case, one has to embrace the apparent contradictions if one is to attempt to a fuller, more complete understanding.

The present topic was sparked by a comment by Sen. Danforth, the most controversial sentence was this: "We have always, always seen ourselves as the middle way. We have always seen ourselves as the place where all kinds of people can come together around the same altar and say the same liturgy and have all kinds of different views, all kinds of political views, theological views." Personally, I think he overstated his case. But what he was suggesting is that God's will is unknowable, and thus doubt and questioning are appropriate -- necessary, in fact -- for believers. If you are interested in really knowing what he thinks, this is a good place to start. Or you can read one of his books. His basic contention is this: "There's a difference between having positions on one hand, and saying `my position is God's position`." The latter is the worst kind of hubris imaginable.

Earlier in this thread Jeremiah graced us with the epistle of 2 peter chapter 3. In it Peter beseeched Christ's followers to be spotless, blameless and at peace with Him. That is a personal choice. And that, to me, is what Christianity is all about. Trying to force one's faith on others negates the whole notion of free will, IMHO. Mark said, "Why religion? My answer is fairly simple: Because you can't do it alone." It seems to me he ignores the fact that in the beginning, the only Christian was Christ himself. And Christ, through Matthew, said this: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...." (Matthew 6:5-6). Christ never forced His word on anyone -- all were eligible, but none were bound. And it is always a personal choice, and only a personal choice. IMHO, a true Christian influences others by personal animus -- by example, in other words -- not by force. Force, while necessary sometimes in the corporal realm, is anathema to Christianity. Properly applied (at least in my view) the Christian warrior concept is all about an internal struggle -- a struggle within each and every person. It is not about a struggle between communities or religions. Said in another way, people are capable of being saved, not nations (or churches).

Ricorun,

You say "That is a choice".

Well, I agree, to dis-agree!!

It is a choice because God gave man a conscience, and the ability to choose on his own, between right and wrong!!

But!!!!, You have to REMEMBER that God does NOT want to see ANYONE go to hell!!

And that is why He commands us to be good stewards of His word, always following and striving to be like Him!!

He sent His Son Jesus as an example!!!

God said: Go into the world and spread the good news, about His Son Jesus Christ!!

So, after man has heard about the Savior!, ought he not want and strive to be like Him?

God has specifically told us in His word, That He goes and has prepared a place for us, that where He is, there WE may be also, provided we obey!!

Should'nt we WANT to be part in what it is He has prepared for us, with an eternity with Him!!

I don't want to see ANYONE go to hell!!!

It is un-fathomable what hell would be like, a TERRIBLE!!!!!!! place!!!!
__________________________________________________
WORKERS FOR CHRIST!!

Jesus says, "THE HARVEST IS (WHITE) RIPE, BUT THE WORKERS ARE FEW!!

Let's be WITNESSES FOR CHRIST!!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah said: "You say "That is a choice". Well, I agree, to dis-agree!! It is a choice because God gave man a conscience, and the ability to choose on his own, between right and wrong!!"

Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds like we agree -- even down to the part where you say each man (I'm assuming the "each" part, but from the context of your statement I assume that's what you mean -- it wouldn't make sense otherwise) has the ability to choose on his own. Well you know, the "ability to choose" is essential. You can't force belief on anyone.

God did send his son as an example, and you might want to take note of that example: Jesus tried His mightiest to influence people, but He never, ever, resorted to force. Force just wasn't part of His repertoire. And with good reason -- the more force you try to apply the less you are likely to succeed. That is part of the natural order of things. Funny how that works out, huh? God may not want anyone to go to hell, and you might not either. But in the end it is each individual's choice, not yours. Judge not, Jeremiah, lest you be judged.

Ricorun,

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, But never the less, Why would anyone want to go to hell?

Jeremiah

Ricorun,

But isn't it that Jesus must either be lunatic, Lucifer or Lord? I've long liked that formulation of Lewis'.

In my view, you are mistaken here - Jesus did not come down to merely provide an example, but to instruct us in how we are to live - and not just live like we're living, you and I, here on this world...but to live a real life, to live more abundantly, as Jesus put it.

As for Jesus never using force - well, that would be because God wishes to have his creatures volunteer to love Him...there is no compulsion on you, but there is force at the back of it all in that we are assured, by Jesus, that we won't like it if we choose not to be with God...not, of course, because God will spitefully make us miserable because we didn't choose Him, but because if we don't choose Him, then we have chosen misery, and that is precisely what we will get.

Also, I don't think Jeremiah is judging - he can't possibly know what is deep within your soul, so he cannot know precisely what path you are on or, God forbid, where you'd go were you to die today...but he does understand what Jesus says, and he can tell when someone is in peril.

Canadian Observer,

First off, I have come to the conclusion that your entire purpose of being here is not to know the word of God and accept it, but in truth you are only here to trample, and REFUSE to know what is GOOD, and of what vital importance it is to you!

Now! I want to make something VERY clear to you!!

A nation that has turned it's back on God Almighty will reap his JUSTICE!!

Do you get what I mean?

Ok, Furthermore, an individual, who has turned their back on God! will reap his judgement, and be thrown into hell!!

There is a difference there, do you see it!!

So, No! the whole nation of Israel, will not be destroyed, because not all of them; will be sinners, just some!!

Will you accept Jesus as you savior?

Jeremiah

"although 80% or so of Americans claim they are Christians"
..................................................

mornone,

Many do profess to be christians!, But, It's not the claiming that gets you to heaven, It's doing what Gods word would have us to do!!

"so I'll try to stick with the golden rule"

Well, The Golden rule is NOT what gets us to heaven!, But I can tell you what will, It's knowing Jesus as our personal savior, and living as He would have us to live, with His help we can do all things, the bible says so, He says: "Without me, ye are nothing, With me ye can do All things!!!!!"

"I can not imagine how the Hindu's keep their 10,000 gods straight when most people cannot keep one consistent."

That's just it. They can't!, because NONE of their gods are living, NONE of their gods provide, love, joy, peace, and comfort. None of their gods will provide an escape from our sins, ONLY Jesus can do that, That's why he WILLINGLY gave up his life, just for YOU!!

"and I wonder how a God can be serious about rewarding that behavior in the afterlife and not reward anyone, anywhere, at anytime who are not "Christian."

Well, to set the record straight, God does not reward hypocrits!, He says: "You are either with me or without me, there is no middle ground, because if we are in the middle, then we are not a christian. The bible says: they(world) have a form of godliness -- but want nothing to do with them, meaning they want nothing to do with those who have the truth, Godly TRUTH.

"I could never sort through the discrepancies stated by the religious and people who quote the bible to support this and that position on things like the death penalty, offensive war making, buying cars on Sunday, or eating this and that."

Well, The bible tells you there is law of the land, and to respect it, the same, as you would the Almighty!

And I don't think God wants us to let a nation of Good, honest, God fearing people be slaughtered by some sick mans ideology!!

Well, as for the buying cars on sunday deal, I can tell you real quick, You should know that one!!, because, I think everyone!, should know the ten commandments, because, the ten commandments, clearly says, for us to rest on the sabbath and to keep it holy!!

So, mornone!, I hope you will think about what I have said, and dig into the word of God, and He will surely show you the way!!!!!!!

Psalm 118:24

"This is the day, that the Lord hath made, Let us rejoice and be glad in it!"

:)

Jeremiah

"although 80% or so of Americans claim they are Christians"
..................................................

mornone,

Many do profess to be christians!, But, It's not the claiming that gets you to heaven, It's doing what Gods word would have us to do!!

"so I'll try to stick with the golden rule"

Well, The Golden rule is NOT what gets us to heaven!, But I can tell you what will, It's knowing Jesus as our personal savior, and living as He would have us to live, with His help we can do all things, the bible says so, He says: "Without me, ye are nothing, With me ye can do All things!!!!!"

"I can not imagine how the Hindu's keep their 10,000 gods straight when most people cannot keep one consistent."

That's just it. They can't!, because NONE of their gods are living, NONE of their gods provide, love, joy, peace, and comfort. None of their gods will provide an escape from our sins, ONLY Jesus can do that, That's why he WILLINGLY gave up his life, just for YOU!!

"and I wonder how a God can be serious about rewarding that behavior in the afterlife and not reward anyone, anywhere, at anytime who are not "Christian."

Well, to set the record straight, God does not reward hypocrits!, He says: "You are either with me or without me, there is no middle ground, because if we are in the middle, then we are not a christian. The bible says: they(world) have a form of godliness -- but want nothing to do with them, meaning they want nothing to do with those who have the truth, Godly TRUTH.

"I could never sort through the discrepancies stated by the religious and people who quote the bible to support this and that position on things like the death penalty, offensive war making, buying cars on Sunday, or eating this and that."

Well, The bible tells you there is law of the land, and to respect it, the same, as you would the Almighty!

And I don't think God wants us to let a nation of Good, honest, God fearing people be slaughtered by some sick mans ideology!!

Well, as for the buying cars on sunday deal, I can tell you real quick, You should know that one!!, because, I think everyone!, should know the ten commandments, because, the ten commandments, clearly says, for us to rest on the sabbath and to keep it holy!!

So, mornone!, I hope you will think about what I have said, and dig into the word of God, and He will surely show you the way!!!!!!!

Psalm 118:24

"This is the day, that the Lord hath made, Let us rejoice and be glad in it!"

:)

Jeremiah

Jeremiah

You know, I've always thought of Jesus as being a kind and gentle soul who took care of all those who were in need; a liberal, if you will.

The Jesus you depict is a kick-ass, everyone for himself, destroy the non-believers before they destroy us, have no mercy kind of deity - more in the vein & teachings of a neo-con, for example.

So, if I'm to accept your version of Jesus as my personal savior, I say no, I am going to give it a pass.

ISAIAH CHAPTER 53

"Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was peirced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that was brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned in his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgement he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death, though he had no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the Lords will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring* and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life]* and be satisfied*; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jeremiah

Mark said: "In my view, you are mistaken here - Jesus did not come down to merely provide an example, but to instruct us in how we are to live - and not just live like we're living, you and I, here on this world...but to live a real life, to live more abundantly, as Jesus put it."

In agreement with Jeremiah, I said Jesus came down to provide an example. I made no representation as to whether that was His only purpose. So if you are disagreeing that Jesus came down to provide an example at least in part, then I strongly disagree with you. What other purpose could there be for God to occupy a corporeal form? Did He intend to instruct? Yes, obviously. But if that was his sole purpose, a burning bush or something would have sufficed. For that reason I believe that his example is an inextricable part of his message. And when you say, "As for Jesus never using force - well, that would be because God wishes to have his creatures volunteer to love Him...", all I can say is... Bingo!

I should also point out that Jesus arrived on earth, born as a Jew, at a time when the Jewish homeland was occupied by a foreign power. Did Jesus resist that foreign power? No. Why? Well, I'll let you figure that out. But I'll tell you one thing, if you really, truly believe that Jesus was God incarnate, it wasn't because he didn't have the power. And that, I guess, speaks to your Lewis quote.

As for me admonishing Jeremiah to judge not, it was not directed at him judging me. Frankly, I don't care what he (or anyone else) thinks of me. I was referring to his propensity for judging others. And as if on cue, he offered up this: "Now! I want to make something VERY clear to you!! A nation that has turned it's back on God Almighty will reap his JUSTICE!!" Forgive me Jeremiah, but let me make THIS clear: it is not your call. To think that it is sets you up for accusations of being a false prophet. You asked me in a previous post, Jeremiah, why would anyone want to go to hell. All I can say to that is... sometimes the choice involved isn't an explicit one. Sometimes I think that moral certainty is the devil's most effective tool. If you catch my drift. I apoligize if I offend, but I think it needed to be said.

And given what I mentioned above, it's pretty clear to me that by both example and instruction, Jesus did not concern himself much with nations in the corporeal realm. He was a shepherd of men, nothing more (or less).

Mark said: "In my view, you are mistaken here - Jesus did not come down to merely provide an example, but to instruct us in how we are to live - and not just live like we're living, you and I, here on this world...but to live a real life, to live more abundantly, as Jesus put it."

In agreement with Jeremiah, I said Jesus came down to provide an example. I made no representation as to whether that was His only purpose. So if you are disagreeing that Jesus came down to provide an example at least in part, then I strongly disagree with you. What other purpose could there be for God to occupy a corporeal form? Did He intend to instruct? Yes, obviously. But if that was his sole purpose, a burning bush or something would have sufficed. For that reason I believe that his example is an inextricable part of his message. And when you say, "As for Jesus never using force - well, that would be because God wishes to have his creatures volunteer to love Him...", all I can say is... Bingo!

I should also point out that Jesus arrived on earth, born as a Jew, at a time when the Jewish homeland was occupied by a foreign power. Did Jesus resist that foreign power? No. Why? Well, I'll let you figure that out. But I'll tell you one thing, if you really, truly believe that Jesus was God incarnate, it wasn't because he didn't have the power. And that, I guess, speaks to your Lewis quote.

As for me admonishing Jeremiah to judge not, it was not directed at him judging me. Frankly, I don't care what he (or anyone else) thinks of me. I was referring to his propensity for judging others. And as if on cue, he offered up this: "Now! I want to make something VERY clear to you!! A nation that has turned it's back on God Almighty will reap his JUSTICE!!" Forgive me Jeremiah, but let me make THIS clear: it is not your call. To think that it is your call sets you up for accusations of being a false prophet. You asked me in a previous post, Jeremiah, why would anyone want to go to hell? All I can say to that is... sometimes the choice involved isn't an explicit or conscious one. Sometimes I think that moral certainty is the devil's most effective tool, if you catch my drift. I apoligize if I offend, but I think it needed to be said.

And given what I mentioned above, it's pretty clear to me that by both example and instruction, Jesus did not concern himself much with nations in the corporeal realm. He was a shepherd of men, nothing more (or less).

"forgive me for saying this but it is not your call"

Ricorun,

Listen!!, I am not basing my decision on my sole belief, I base it, on the WORD OF GOD AND IT ALONE,
You can say all day long as you wish, but that does NOT change His Holy word!!

This is how I believe........

Bear in mind now, This is not man speaking But God himself.

Ps 9:17
The wicked shall be TURNED INTO HELL, and all the NATIONS that forget God.

Here's a worthy saying from the Apostle Paul in the New Testament concerning the reason Christ Jesus came into the world.
1ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus CAME INTO THE WORLD to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

And remember this my friend, I can quote my own ideology until you're blue in the face, because the word of God is mightier than a two-edged
sword and Mark 7:13 says the following.
Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of NONE effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

We have our own ideologies, traditions, and such like which really amount to nothing but a violatile argument when presented to others because
they may not see exactly the way we say, they don't hear the way I hear, and so forth.
This has went on since the beginning of time.
What truly matters is to have a foundational belief that is rock solid, It's the word of God and we can refute it all we would like, but HIS word shall forever stand. When heaven and earth shall pass away, The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is God Almighty's Word shall remain.
It shall never falter, fail or fade. That's what I believe. And I know its true, because His Word is within my heart.

Jeremiah

As an atheist, one that grants that anyone should be allowed to practice any form of religion they wish to practice, I find it amusing to read the "experts" here explaining what their God wants, doesn't want, does, did, will do, et. al.

When questioned, these same people will resort to circular logic in one of several ways:

1. It is so because I believe it to be so.

2. It is written in the (insert religious book of choice, e.g., Bible, Torah, Koran) and so it must be true.

3. Or they take pity on you for being unwashed, uninformed, and weak of faith.

I have seen no evidence of a God. People believe their various religions and Gods based on one thing: Faith. Someone once said about that if you are faithful, proof is not needed. Sorry I have to have proof. I believe in things I find to be convincing based on evidence - not faith that the evidence will someday materialize.

I do not think that these faithful have some defect or that they are wrong. I do not cast any kind of aspersions on them for being believers and being true (as true as they can be) to their various faiths. I do not demand that they not put their religious symbols on public land - that is a violation of freedom and serves no purpose.

And I do think I understand the faithful, I just don't buy signing up to something on faith alone.

Now on the other hand, those that for one reason or another persecute people based on their beliefs (or non-beliefs) are vile and despicable. And I think they act from fear; a sense of being threatened - not by violence but by not being allowed into the social group because they don't believe.

For all you preachers, save your breath, I cannot be converted. I have moral standards that are as high as any of yours and I probably live them more often than you do yours. I don't question my reason for being and I seek no afterlife.

Reverend Scaramonga

On this issue we agree.

If God does not exist? Then there is no explanation for this earth we live in and the universe surrounding it!!

TING! AHA!! SAID THE BLIND MAN!! NOW I SEE!!

INDEED!! THERE IS A GOD!! AND HE IS REAL!!

wake up people!!

Jeremiah