The French revolted and overthrew the king using the American Revolution as example and 217 years later the Republicans condemn their actions. In 1776 the French fascist also condemned the revolt in America. The Pope tried to correct both events with the Congress of Vienna of 1814. When that failed Napoleon was called back into action and the final push to create a civil war in America was begun. Peaceb

Mark,

Those "cut throats" also gave us the basic foundation for our political philosophy.

Je ne parle pas le fromage!

Absolutely. Those lowlifes made citizenry a dominant political force and created a major turning point in the history of Western democracy and ended the age of absolutism.

A similar thing happened a few years earlier when a bunch of terrorists, dressed as Mohawks, destroyed merchandise in Boston Harbor simply because that merchandise was cheaper than what the terrorists could provide. They were clearly enemies of capitalism.

Mark, all that wouldn't have happened except for the fact that the mob appeared at the Bastille and the guards and admins immediately surrendered.

;->

Ironically, on this day in Clarksdale, Mississippi, I was thrust upon an unsuspecting world. Happy birthday to me!

steve, I am not comfortable with your genralization, "217 years later the Republicans condemn their actions." I don't know the history around Bastille Day, so I don't even know if I agree with Mark or not. He could be wrong in my eyes or he may be right with some explaination or qualification, I just don't know. Peace.

Mark, you really have lost your marbles. This post (as if most of your other posts haven't done so already) shows me to never to take you seriously, 'cause you really have GOT to be joking )or just completely nuts.

Those French people were laying the foundations for Democracy in their country. How can you, as a Conservative, not like to see when Democracy spreads. America was their example ! You sure wnt democracy in Iraq. Why not France?

The Boston Tea party might have been considered an act of TERRORISM at the time by some British in the colonies. These "French cut throats" were doing the same as AMERICANS.

Is your recent pathetic hatred for the French because of Conservative ARROGANCE causing you to make up your own history?

Mark, go eat your "Freedom" fries and take a chill pill. Also, STOP TRYING TO BLAME EVERYTHING BAD ON LIBERALS OR COUNTRIES WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH GEORGE BUSH!!!

You are being a BABY!

Speaking of the French and their wisdom, below are excerpts from a speech delivered by the French Foreign Minister to the UN on the eve of the Iraqi invasion. If Bush only listened.

With regard to nuclear weapons, Mr. ElBaradei's statement confirmed … the IAEA will be able to certify the dismantlement of Iraq's program.
…
What conclusions can we draw? That Iraq, according to the very terms used by the inspectors, represents less of a danger to the world than it did in 1991, that we can achieve our objective of effectively disarming that country. Let us keep the pressure on Baghdad.

To those who believe that war would be the quickest way of disarming Iraq, I can reply that it will drive wedges and create wounds that will be long in healing. And how many victims will it cause? How many families will grieve?
…
Is it a matter of fighting terrorism? War would only increase it and we would then be faced with a new wave of violence.
…
Is it finally a matter of recasting the political landscape of the Middle East? In that case, we run the risk of exacerbating tensions in a region already marked by great instability. Not to mention that in Iraq itself, the large number of communities and religions already represents a danger of a potential break-up.
…
But there is nothing today to indicate a link between the Iraqi regime and al Qaeda. And will the world be a safer place after a military intervention in Iraq? I want to tell you what my country's conviction is: It will not.

For those who are not familiar, please go look up the Bastille prison in the enyclopedia to see what Mark means by "harmless".

Mark, this includes you; go find yourself a history book. I wonder if you would still think the prison guards and administrators were "harmless" if you were an inmate in a similarly nasty sort of prison.

And what the hell does "go figure" mean? There are plenty of reasons not to like the french, but overthrowing their monarchy should not be one of them.

I hear the French are great at head butting soccer players in the chest, ignoring their huge immigration Muslim issue until they burn their cities down, raging unemployment and best of all the ability to cheat the United Nations in the Oil for Food program while at the same time applauding how wonderful the UN is.

The French....pathetic.

Wow Mark.... You are a true idiot.
I love coming here to read your articles because they are so full of ignorance and lack of truth.
Long live Blogsforbush.....LOL!!!

Warrior,

Just because we can't field a team that doesn't look like the Ramsey Nursing-Home Allstars compared with a vast majority of the rest of the world, doesn't mean you have to get all jealous...go back to watching a 4 hour baseball game with our supreme, juiced-up heroes of the game.

Secondly, If no one informed you, the OfF program had fraud from our side too. We have plenty of US companies involved, and there were serious lacks of US oversight with regards to such fraud. So get over the fact that somehow we weren't sharing in the filth that was floating around the UN.

"The United States (government) was not only aware of Iraqi oil sales which violated UN sanctions and provided the bulk of the illicit money Saddam Hussein obtained from circumventing UN sanctions. On occasion, the United States actually facilitated the illicit oil sales."

--Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations

"Likewise, the maritime smuggling that took place under the nose of "the UN" in fact took place under the nose of something called the Multinational Interception Force, a group of member nations that responded to the general invitation of the Security Council for nations to interdict Iraqi smuggling. The "UN" Multinational Interception Force turns out to have consisted almost entirely of the US Navy. The commander of the MIF was at every point, from 1991 to 2003, a rear admiral or vice admiral from the US Fifth Fleet. The United States contributed the overwhelming majority of ships--hundreds in fact. Britain provided the deputy commander and some naval forces and other countries contributed a few ships. The UN itself provided no forces or commanders. "The UN" failure to interdict Saddam's tankers of illicit oil turns out, in nearly every regard, to have been a US naval operation."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20041206/gordon

Damn headbutting Frenchies!

Robert

Mark really dropped the ball on this one. Haven't got a clue what he was thinking or should I say NOT THINKING when he posted this thread.

I Love it Mark!

You throw some humorous bait out and the moonbats, frothing at the mouth, suck it down hook line and sinker.

What humorless bafoons.

To all you cheese eating surrender monkeys and terrorist apologists out there:

Happy Bastille day!.

In response to BarneyG's post:
No link between Iraq (assuming Barney means Saddam's Iraq) and Al Qaeda? I beg to differ. Ever hear of Abdul Raman Yasin? He was one of the AQ terrorists who hit the WTC in '93. He was then sheltered for 10 years, and given a stipend by Saddam's government. For more info, read Richard Miniter's book "Disinformation". There was LOTS of involvement between Saddam's regime and AQ. Ever heard of Salman Pak? It was a terrorist training camp in Iraq, the only one, as far as I know, that included an airplane fuselage. If there were any other camps which included an airplane fuselage, would someone please point out which?

Bigfoot, what a load of crap (from WIKI):

Another defector who interviewed Mr. Ghurairy noted, ""He is an opportunist, cheap and manipulative. He has poetic interests and has a vivid imagination in making up stories."[48] Inconsistencies in the stories of the defectors led U.S. officials, journalists, and investigators to conclude that the Salman Pak story was inaccurate. One senior U.S. official said that they had found "nothing to substantiate" the claim that al-Qaeda trained at Salman Pak other than the testimony of several INC defectors

On several occasions, Iraq offered to turn Yasin over to the US government in exchange for lifting UN economic sanctions. Tariq Aziz, spokesman of Iraq, claimed that in the 1990's all Iraq wanted in return was a signed statement that Iraq had handed over Yasin. But reportedly the statement presented to the U.S. at the time contained lengthy wording essentially exonerating Iraqi involvement in the 1993 WTC attack. Nevertheless, Kenneth Pollack of the State Department stated that there was no CIA information tying Iraq into the 1993 WTC bombing.

With Yasin reportedly being held as a prisoner in Hussein's Iraq, Leslie Stahl of CBS interviewed him there for a segment on 60 Minutes on May 23, 2002 (see below). Yasin appeared in prison pajamas and handcuffs. It was claimed that Iraq had held Yasin prisoner on the outskirts of Baghdad since 1994. Stahl also interviewed US Attorneys who acknowledged they had agreed to release Yasin to Iraq. (CBS 2002 Briley 2005)

Where is your evidence that Iraq had any opperational ties to 9/11? Bush doesn't even claim such a link.

Barney: this is what you do... he simply said there were connections between AQ and Saddam's Regime... the person Bigfoot mentioned told you what occured in 1993...

So you change the subject to prove your point...

Typical.

"Typical."

If that means correcting a misleading neo con talking point (10-years in abu gharib = "sheltered, and given a stipend by Saddam's government") so be it.

Wow... now Barney can change history at his will...

Even though that's not even what I was talking about... and that's not what the guy before you was talking about... but then again... you barely have a grasp of reality, much less facts.

"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire 1778. How ironic, with his throat cut and all. Peace

Wow, the ultimate warrior is posting on blogs for Bush! I just HAVE to throw him to the ropes now!

phnxbmed, you rock. Turn this insane post into a clever ploy to bait moonbats. What will you think of next? I'm sure I can't even comprehend it.

Warrior: wow. Your post is devoid of ANY points. You grumble about this and that, and provide irrefutable logic as to why the French are pathetic (actually, you don't).

From what I can see, ANYONE who says ANYTHING even remotely 'against' you is surely, clearly, irrefutably the 'enemy'. Why the hostility? It makes you sound insecure. However, having been to your website, I know you do not FEEL insecure (in ANY way!). You are just SO SURE of the 'truth' (whatever that is, man). At any rate, I'd advise opening your mind instead.

It sure is easy to lay into THE ENTIRE NATION of France over Zidane's headbutt. One guy! All of France! One guy! I know you are/were an athlete, but your Olympic sized jumps in logic are beyond me (well, I am a moonbat... you will have to talk down to my level).

Come to think of it, didn't you earn paychecks dancing in tights issuing headbutts for a living? Oh, that was acting! Not a sport, so it's okay. Nevermind! :P I'd better calm down with these comments before I earn myself a bodypress or something more sinister. Come to think of it, I don't think there's a whoopin' I'd rather receive, actually! Bizzare.

Warrior, props to you for believing 100% in your mission. I respect you, but think you are driving the wrong way in the wrong lane. Still, I respect you for doin' your thing. Let's mentally wrestle some other time.

Warrior_fan

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz....that's the sound of my rod and reel hooking you in. Glad you swallowed it whole.

Hey, you knuckledraggers, take it easy on the Frogs, they gave us the metric system after all and some day, the USA will wake up and accept it like most of the world.

ROFL - thanks, lefties, I needed a laugh today.

Nate,

The Bastille, by 1789, was a place of genteel confinement for well to do layabouts. When the mob stormed the prison there were seven (7) prisoners confined within. What was really horrific is the way the mob wantonly murdered the warden and guards for no reason other than bloodlust.

Robert,

What the mob in Paris was laying the groundwork for was the first leftwing experiment in government - and in true leftist fashion, the storming of the Bastille was instigated by a man who roused the mob by lying to them about the intentions of the king; asserting that the Royal army was to enter Paris and massacre the inhabitants, then the king had given no such orders, and had no such intentions (as was borne out in 1792 when the mob stormed the royal palace and the king forbade his guards to fire on the crowd - even though a wiff of the grape would probably have dispersed them and saved his throne and the life of himself, his wife and his son).

Rather than democracy, what the French got was a tiny elite riding herd over a senseless mob and kept in power by means of terrorism. The people of France, on the whole, didn't want a revolution - they just wanted an end to burdensome taxation and petty snobbery on the part of the nobility. Large sections of France rose in spontaneous revolt against the revolutionary French government - which preached the equality of all, but where some seemed to be far more equal than others. In addition to this, most of France did not want to war on religion the way the radicals in Paris did.

Mobocracy leading to Terror leading to imperial dictatorship - that is all Bastille day meant.

This is where conservatism started! Edmund Burke's
Reflections upon the French Revolution started the entire conservative movement. Never mind that he was half mad, broke and repentant for having taken away George III's sinecure power. The Reflections are extraordinary in that he was so prescient. He predicted the Terror, the Grand Peur, Napoleon.

But lest we forget. There were centuries where the aristocracy pretty much just exploited the rest of France. The Notables had a chance to finally tax themselves (they never paid for wars)and they refused. The world fell about their heads (literally) because they were too greedy. Plus the Church was equally recalcitrant...

Yeah the Bastille was a mob action and it was nasty with the heads being paraded around and all. But we must remember that La France is our traditional ally and the reason they went broke and went through their Revolution was because they went broke giving us our independence from England. Yorktown would never have happened without the French ships in the Chesapeake...

Vive la France!

Same thing happened in Russia in 1917. The aristocrats chose to ignore the well founded discontent of the poor masses and like the French aristocrats, were killed in large numbers. In both cases, a reign of terror ensued orchestrated by radicals.

Happy birthday, Carl! The world is better off for your presence.
:)

I don't know about all this, but I do know they have one hell of a party in the Soulard Market area of St. Louis to celebrate Bastille Day. Lots of cake, champagne and bare beas..., can I say that on B4B?

Nevertheless, Vive la France. Here's looking at you.

Vive la France?

I heard an interview with Winston S. Churchill, Churchill's descendant, on FoxNews last week. He said that the estimated demographic outlook for France predicts that Muslims will be the majority in France in just one generation.

Vive la France?

I heard an interview with Winston S. Churchill, Churchill's descendant, on FoxNews last week. He said that the estimated demographic outlook for France predicts that Muslims will be the majority in France in just one generation.

Muslims will be the majority in France in just one generation

And? What's your point?

Willem:

Our right wing friends think in black and white.

Muslim bad. Christian good.

I thought so already. Isn't it extremely hilarious that fundamental Islamists and fundamental Christians want exactly the same thing?

Canuck,

1917: Another senseless explosion of hate-filled violence...

Mark, you did it you got yourself an encylopedia, didn't you?

You need to read it a little more, though:

- "The Bastille, by 1789, was a place of genteel confinement for well to do layabouts."

Yes, and... so what? In 1789, the Bastille reigned as a symbol of the oppression and cruelty of the commoners by the elite. Seriously, you won't have to read your book too much farther to find this out. The monarchy was making use of other, much worse prisons to do it's bidding by this time, but none of these other prisons was quite the symbol that the Bastille was.

- "What was really horrific is the way the mob wantonly murdered the warden and guards for no reason other than bloodlust."

Yes, the governor died badly that day. And he probably wasn't such a bad guy. Again, so what? Does this mean that the frenchies of today should abandon the Bastille's storming as the symbollic start of the revolution? What the hell for?

The rest of your suspiciously well-written response is just as useful. Yes, we know about the self serving motives of many of the revolution's leaders, and yes, we know how crappy the french government is.

But your last line is the real kicker:

- "Mobocracy leading to Terror leading to imperial dictatorship - that is all Bastille day meant."

This is a completely meaningless sentence. This is like saying, "Oppression of indians and making war for oil - that is all the fourth of July means".

Means to whom? To you? To the french people? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a french person who would say the Bastille day symbolizes "mobocracy" or "dictatorship". And such a person would be unlikely to celebrate Bastille day, just as Native Americans are somewhat less likely to be excited by the Fourth of July.

So what are you saying? That this is just what Bastille day symbolizes to you? And if so, who gives a sh*t?

Nate,

Actually, that was all out of my own little head...though I did have to check Durant's "Rousseau and Revolution" to recall the exact number of prisoners released.

France didn't want a revolution - a small, wealthy elite ginned one up because they didn't want to just reform the system, they wanted to take it over completely. The instructions to the delegates of the States General indicated that loyalty to Louis XVI was the order of the day, and they just wanted relief from burdensome taxation, petty noble snobbery and other reforms necessary to secure the safety and happiness of the French people...they didn't vote, in 1789 or 1791, for a bloody, twenty-year long extravaganza which would eventually see Frenchmen dying by the tens of thousands in support of the mad dreams of a megalomaniac general who hijacked the tattered remnants of the French Revolution in 1799.

It was a mistake, you see? It shouldn't have happened - our Founders for the most part reacted in horror to the excesses of the French revolution - even to engaging in a naval war with the cruel and rapacious French "Republic".

France would have been better off with slow, organic change towards a constitutional monarchy.

So, Mark, in other words- "Let them eat cake". Yes the French revolution was brutal to the monarchy and the aristocracy-in that way the people were assured there would be no going back. Any monarchy or dictator that disregards its people the way Louis XVI did risks the same. The French were driven by the innate unfairness of economic inequality and lack of basic freedoms to turn into the mob that stormed the Bastille. Vive la France!

Muslims will be the majority in France in just one generation

"And? What's your point?"-Posted by: Willem van Oranje

The point is, as the population of Muslims outnumbers the population of non-Muslims, France will slowly cease to be a western, secular nation. Islam prohibits Muslims from integrating into non-Muslim societies. Muslims keep their own Islamic customs. So-called "les banlieux" are Muslim-dominated, Muslim-controlled areas in France. There are many of them throughout France. Police call them "no-go zones" because they are afraid to go in them. As the number of Muslims grow, and the number of French non-Muslims shrink, France will increasingly become Islamic. That's bad-unless you like burkas and mosques and Islamic terrorism.

Kritter,

Of course, Marie Antoinette never actually said that - yet another example of a lie being used to incite hatred. In fact, both king and queen spent vast sums of their personal money on alleviating the suffering of the poor. Louis XVI wasn't a great king, but he was a good man and he did work hard to try and better the lot of his people.

There has been, in human history, really only one properly conducted revolution - and that was ours. Thank God for Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, et al, we had a group of men who weren't personally ambitious save in their desire to earn the esteem of their fellow men.

"France would have been better off with slow, organic change towards a constitutional monarchy."

There it is, people. The truth is out. Mark's fondest wish for these United States of America.

All hail King George! Or else it's Guantanabastille prison for the lot of you worthless peasants!

"Isn't it extremely hilarious that fundamental Islamists and fundamental Christians want exactly the same thing?" -Willem van Oranje

That's ridiculous. Have you been living under a rock for the past 5 years? That's a rhetorical question.

Islam = suicide bombings, Islamic terrorist bombings, beheadings, stonings, gays hanged, hands chopped off for theft, "honor" killings, female genital mutilation, burkhas, legalized rape, mosques everywhere with the call to prayer ringing out 5 times a day; the waging of a global jihad to force everyone-including Willem van Oranje-to convert to Islam, be subjugated to Islam (dhimmitude), or to be murdered by Islam. This is what Islam wants.

It's too late in the game to be this dangerously naieve, Willem van Oranje. Get a clue.

Warrior, props to you for believing 100% in your mission. I respect you, but think you are driving the wrong way in the wrong lane.

I don't know where you're from, but in this country you're supposed to drive in the right lane. Keep to the right!

It seems to me you're the one driving in the wrong lane, the far left lane.

Say Mark, do you have time for all of this?

Remember, you have to pay my tax breaks. I suggest you go back to work and leave all this blogging to those damn hippies. And if there is any time left, please use it to protect my rights from the terrorists.

The point is, as the population of Muslims outnumbers the population of non-Muslims, France will slowly cease to be a western, secular nation.

Typical National Front's racist propaganda. France has a population of approximately 60 million people. Approximately 3.1 million people have a Muslim cultural background, of which an estimated 600,000 people describe themselves as observant.
How many of those 600,000 can be considered radical islamist and how long will it take before these radical islamists have outnumbered the French as a whole?

Sure, there are tensions between ‘les banlieux’ and the rest of France. Not because the banlieues as Muslim, but because the people in these banlieues are struggling with poverty and unemployment. The riots from last year have made it abundantly clear the people, especially the youth, from these banlieues consider themselves French.

This is all racist scaremongering, racists have done this in the past - and some still continue to do so today - with Jews and Blacks and now they're using Muslims and Gays for their scaremongering.

Islam = suicide bombings, Islamic terrorist bombings, beheadings, stonings, gays hanged, hands chopped off for theft, "honor" killings, female genital mutilation, burkhas, legalized rape, mosques everywhere with the call to prayer ringing out 5 times a day; the waging of a global jihad to force everyone-including Willem van Oranje-to convert to Islam, be subjugated to Islam (dhimmitude), or to be murdered by Islam. This is what Islam wants.

I live in a predominantly Islamic neighborhood nowadays, I was raised in a predominantly fundamentalistic Christian neighborhood 45 yrs ago. I prefer to live in the Islamic neighborhood - even as a gay man - over the Christian one.

Human progress will be very difficult until, among other problems, the entire concept of nobility and monarchy (constitutional and otherwise) are eradicated from the planet.
Mark, like a traditional (unAmerican) conservative still holds a soft spot in his heart and in his head for the "divine right" of kings.
Down with all tyrants! Vive la France!

"I prefer to live in the Islamic neighborhood - even as a gay man - over the Christian one." Willem van Oranje

Willem, go to the local mosque and announce your sexual predelection for men and ask your muslim neighbors what they think of that. I'm sure they will be most understanding.

Christ said, "love the sinner hate the sin.
Mohammed said "kill the infidel"...that means you.

"Typical National Front's racist propaganda."-Posted by: Willem van Oranje

Here's a clue. Islam is a RELIGION, not a race.

"Approximately 3.1 million people have a Muslim cultural background, of which an estimated 600,000 people describe themselves as observant."-Willem van Oranje

Where are you getting your numbers from? Seasame Street?

"Sure, there are tensions between ‘les banlieux’ and the rest of France. Not because the banlieues as Muslim, but because the people in these banlieues are struggling with poverty and unemployment." -Willem van Oranje

Oh, yeah, riiiight. All those Muslims screaming, "Allah ackbar!" while they torched hundreds of cars and clashed with police had nothing to do with Islam. Riiiight! All those Muslim gang-rapes that the media likes to ignore, but still happen constantly in "les banlieux" have nothing to do with Islam. Riiight!

"The riots from last year have made it abundantly clear the people, especially the youth, from these banlieues consider themselves French." -Willem van Oranje

Bwahaha! Oh, that's perfect! You have been living under a rock for the past 5 years. Your ignorance of the situation is near total.

"This is all racist scaremongering, racists have done this in the past - and some still continue to do so today - with Jews and Blacks and now they're using Muslims and Gays for their scaremongering."--Willem van Oranje

Once again, Islam is a RELIGION, not a race. Gays are a "race" now?!? Are you dense? Also, I'm so glad that you brought up Jews and Blacks. Let's see how Islam treats Jews and Blacks...

Blacks:

Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Bukhari: V9B89N256 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.’”

Jews:

Qur’an 2:61 “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.”

Qur’an 5:59 “Say: ‘People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?’ Say: ‘Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine.”

Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

Qur’an 4:55 “Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!”

"I live in a predominantly Islamic neighborhood nowadays, I was raised in a predominantly fundamentalistic Christian neighborhood 45 yrs ago." Posted by: Willem van Oranje

Did you move into it, or did it gradually become "predominantly Islamic" by a growth in the Muslim population?

"I prefer to live in the Islamic neighborhood -even as a gay man - over the Christian one."-Willem van Oranje

Good luck with that!

Amsterdam Shari'a Watch

New Zealand MP: Some Stoning OK

12/6/2003: Aussie Imam: Gays Should be Beheaded

Sistani: "Gays Should Be Killed in Worst Way Possible."

Congressive,

Yeah, much better to have a bloody revolution followed by dictatorship and 20 years of war...organic change would have nade us miss Napoleon...

Freedom,

Maybe it is that he'd rather be stoned to death than listen to a Christian sermon? The left seems to be getting like that...

"...organic change would have nade us miss Napoleon..." Posted by: Mark Noonan

LOL!
:)

"Maybe it is that he'd rather be stoned to death than listen to a Christian sermon? The left seems to be getting like that..."-Mark Noonan

Guess so. The world is getting weirder by the day.

"Muslim bad. Christian good." Posted by: Ash

I never said that. Check your reading comprehension, Ash. Islam is bad. Chrisitanity is good.

Muslims may or may not be bad, since they are human beings capable of rational thought and decency. However, the Islamic religion is totally evil. The degree to which a Muslim adheres to Islam determines whether they are good or dangerous.

The metric system. Fantastic. I think they also gave us the white flag, the run and retreat, and sourdough bread.

Yeah because those Muslims are so kind to gay men. Many Muslims will kill you in some parts of the world as homosexuality is a big no-no in the Muslim world.

So have fun with that, if you're even telling the truth which I doubt.

Freedom1

Check this out:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Seems that Islam is not a religion of the Book afterall.

Oooh, Can't you just FEEEEEL the Christian Luv.

So, to sum up the Western view on and treatment of women, non-israelites, gays, etc., we only have to cite the Bible?

And no, I don't have to go to the mosque and/or to my neigbors: the neighborhood knows I'm gay. Even better, I've got Turkish friends, living in the same neigborhood, who are - openly - gay.

The treatment of homosexuality (and sexuality in general) in Islamic countries or by Muslims is far, far, far more complex than what the Qu'ran says about it or how it's portrayed in your kneejerk reactions.

How's that "winning the Hearts and Minds" thing going? I don't consider your views on Islam and Muslims as a winning strategy. Why don't you follow your ‘Leader’ in this?

Willem van Oranje,

Where did your "outrage" over racism go?? I just showed you Islam's racism towards Blacks and Jews and you didn't even bother to condemn it.

"...the neighborhood knows I'm gay. Even better, I've got Turkish friends, living in the same neigborhood, who are - openly - gay."-Willem van Oranje

That's wonderful. Then you have nothing to fear from these particular people then do you? But, what about other Muslims? Willem, I'm just pointing out the danger you are in. At least take the warning under advisement.

"The treatment of homosexuality (and sexuality in general) in Islamic countries or by Muslims is far, far, far more complex than what the Qu'ran says about it or how it's portrayed in your kneejerk reactions."-Willem van Oranje

"Kneejerk reactions"-do you really want to throw in yet another cliche? It's annoying. Yes, the treatment of homosexuality in the Qu'ran and in Islamic countries is more complex; but what's not "complex" is that in many Muslim countries gays are killed for open homosexuality. Dead. Hanged. Stoned. Beheaded. No discussion. No debate. No mercy. DEAD. I'm guessing that's NOT okay with you.

"I don't consider your views on Islam and Muslims as a winning strategy."-Willem van Oranje

I'm shocked! Shocked I say!/sarcasm. Did you say you were Dutch? Anyway, you might want to take a few minutes and scan the following links to see what's been going on in the Netherlands and in Europe regarding Islam and Muslims. Perhaps your views might be altered. Then again, probably not.

Honor killing

40% of Young Dutch Muslims Reject Democracy

Honor Killing Family Guilty in Denmark

"Seems that Islam is not a religion of the Book afterall." Posted by: phnxbmed

No, it's not, Phnxbmed. The archeological evidence is overwhelming! Great link! From your link: Allah-the Moon god:: As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.

[...] CONCLUSION
The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

"Seems that Islam is not a religion of the Book afterall." Posted by: phnxbmed

No, it's not, Phnxbmed. The archeological evidence is overwhelming! Great link! From your link: Allah-the Moon god:: As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.

[...] CONCLUSION
The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

hey, no you didn't snag that guy. i AM the ultimate warrior.

Freedom1 has evidently proven the old saying that a little bit of knowledge in the hands of a fool can be a dangerous thing. Care to take that same archeological dig into the beginnings of Judaism and Christianity? Oh let me guess, you never have cause if you did and found something a little off from the world view handed down to you, well then you just may go to hell. Remain locked up in your little world "freedom" and keep blowing crap. That seems to be all you have left to offer anymore.

"Care to take that same archeological dig into the beginnings of Judaism and Christianity?" Posted by: Leftorium

Didn't you ever go to school? College? Archeological digs into Judaism and Christianity have been ongoing almost constantly. Archaelogical findings have NEVER disproven anything in the Bible. Try again Leftorium.

"...that a little bit of knowledge in the hands of a fool can be a dangerous thing." -Leftorium

For someone who wasn't even aware of the major, ongoing, worldwide archeological expeditions into the origins of Christianity, the fool appears to be you, Leftorium.

Care to denounce Islam's racism towards Jews and Blacks? Care to denounce Islam's rejection of democracy? Care to denounce Islam's horrendously violent treatment of women-female genital mutilation, burkhas, legalized rape? Care to denounce Islam's global jihad against infidels consisting of suicide bombings, Islamic terrorist bombings, beheadings, etc. to force everyone-including you Leftorium-to convert to Islam, be subjugated to Islam (dhimmitude-aka slavery), or to be murdered by Islam? Care to denounce Islam's Shari'a Law legal system-stonings, more beheadings, hands chopped off for theft, death for blasphemy, death for leaving the religion of Islam? I'm waiting Leftorium.

"Care to take that same archeological dig into the beginnings of Judaism and Christianity?" Posted by: Leftorium

Didn't you ever go to school? College? Archeological digs into Judaism and Christianity have been ongoing almost constantly. Archaelogical findings have NEVER disproven anything in the Bible. Try again Leftorium.

"...that a little bit of knowledge in the hands of a fool can be a dangerous thing." -Leftorium

For someone who wasn't even aware of the major, ongoing, worldwide archeological expeditions into the origins of Christianity, the fool appears to be you, Leftorium.

Care to denounce Islam's racism towards Jews and Blacks? Care to denounce Islam's rejection of democracy? Care to denounce Islam's horrendously violent treatment of women-female genital mutilation, burkhas, legalized rape? Care to denounce Islam's global jihad against infidels consisting of suicide bombings, Islamic terrorist bombings, beheadings, etc. to force everyone-including you Leftorium-to convert to Islam, be subjugated to Islam (dhimmitude-aka slavery), or to be murdered by Islam? Care to denounce Islam's Shari'a Law legal system-stonings, more beheadings, hands chopped off for theft, death for blasphemy, death for leaving the religion of Islam? I'm waiting Leftorium.

My, you're an even bigger idiot than I originally surmised. By the tone and content of your knee jerk posts I can see that what schooling you've had didn't take. As for myself I hold 3 degrees and one of them is in Art History. So I'm well aware of the archeological history pertaining to Judaism and Christianity.

I'll explain it slower and with smaller words if that can help you.
By archeological dig, I was referring to your personal search for the origin of Allah. You searched out and found that Allah was originally viewed as a Moon God. As if that somehow discredited the religion.
Well did you ever consider the original versions of God in the Christian religion? Ever read Greek mythology? Ever ask yourself why you celebrate Christmas when you do? How about Easter? These are just a few things to look at, there's much more on the subject. Do a little more "research" and I think you'll be surprised. However your regressive tendencies will bar any new knowledge from entering your cerebral cortex so it's probably worthless to try.

Freedumb, I don't really believe you are all that concerned with Islam's treatment of women or it's views on slavery or it's views non-Muslims. Trust me, the last time Islam was any real threat to the religious purity of the western world was the 15th century. So drumming up hatred against them is hardly necessary.
I'm not here to be Islam’s advocate or it's apologist and I don't appreciate being put in that position by a piss ant like yourself just because I think you’re a raving dumbass. Likewise you, even though you may have a grandiose view of yourself, are not exactly what Christianity is looking for in a spokesman. What you obviously are is a cultural supremacist. This century's last accepted bigotry. Well Christianity isn't all that forward thinking with concern to women's rights either. And as for beheadings, Christians in this country advocate the death penalty based on the eye for an eye Old Testament law. What I'm saying is every religion has it fundamentalists and extremists. Should we judge Christianity based on the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church or the Nazis? How about we draw conclusions about Christ from the actions of the Catholic Church. We can start with that whole Inquisition period and go from there.
Grow up and gain some perspective.

And now a few proponents of the religion of peace:

Gary North:

The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.

Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)

Bailey Smith:

With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew.

Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994

Randall Terry:

I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism.

The News Sentinel, (Fort Wayne, Indiana), August 16, 1993.

Randall Terry:

When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.

Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995

Francis J. Lally:

The Church has through the centuries, understood that ideas are really more dangerous than other weapons. Their use should be restricted.

Francis J. Lally, American Roman Catholic Monsignor. Interview with Mike Wallace, 1958.

Jerry Falwell:

I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One's misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status.

USA Today. Quoted from: The Religious Freedom Coalition.

Tom DeLay:

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.

House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) at the First Baptist Church of Pearland, Texas, on April 12, 2002

Ann Coulter:

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.

Newspaper Column, September 2001.

David Chilton:

The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of His chosen people until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers - the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (1984)

"As for myself I hold 3 degrees and one of them is in Art History."-Posted by: Leftorium

Wow. You managed to get three degrees without learning anything. Impressive. Although, you do know how to call names like a six-year old-ie.-"idiot", "fool", "Freedumb". Childish.

"Do a little more 'research' and I think you'll be surprised."-Leftorium

Already done. I'm well aware of those things. I especially love Greek mythology. Christianity has been attacked by people like you for 2,000 years. Scholars, archeologists, philosophers, historians, scientists, you name it, have all attempted to discredit Christianity. None have succeeded. None ever will. My faith-Christianity-has been one of the most thoroughly examined faiths in the history of the planet. It has withstood all attacks, because it is the TRUTH.

"What I'm saying is every religion has it fundamentalists and extremists."-Leftorium

What you're really saying is that you've never bothered to research Islam. Islam itself is violent, misogynistic and imperialistic. Muhammad was a violent murderer, polygamist, pedophile, torturer, thief, liar, and conqueror...and he's the "Model to Mankind" for Muslims. I don't base my analysis of Islam on the actions of Osama bin Laden or the ravings of some random Muslim cleric. I base my analysis on the Qur'an and the Ahadiths (Muhammad's sayings and deeds). Jihad Your ignorance of Islam was "okay" before 9/11, but it's dangerous for Western Civilization now in 2006. We are in World War III-Islam vs. the World.

"Trust me, the last time Islam was any real threat to the religious purity of the western world was the 15th century."-Leftorium

Oh, please! Are you blind?!? Most of the wars going on in the world today involve Muslims! You can't just wish that away.

"I'm not here to be Islam’s advocate or it's apologist and I don't appreciate being put in that position by a piss ant like yourself just because I think you’re a raving dumbass."-Leftorium

Translation-Leftorium refuses to condemn Islam's barbarity and global jihad. Afterall, you wouldn't want to be "cultural supremacist"-even if that other culture wants to kill you.

As for all those quotes, it's stupid to judge a religion based on what contemporaries say about it. Afterall, it's just their opinion and you can easily find someone else whose opinion is the exact opposite. Judge a religion based on its source material-in Islam, that's the Qur'an and the Ahadith.

Where did your "outrage" over racism go?? I just showed you Islam's racism towards Blacks and Jews and you didn't even bother to condemn it.

Apparently you can't read very well so I'll retype it more slowly: "So, to sum up the Western view on and treatment of women, non-israelites, gays, etc., we only have to cite the Bible?"

In other words: there are numerous instances in the Bible that are equally racist and sexist as the Qu'ran. Even worse, the Biblical God goes on a smiting-rampage like a little kid with ADHD who didn't get the medication. He had a rather strange predilection for killing first Both have influenced the history of racism, etnocentrism, sexism, etc. tremendously but both are not the modern views of both religions. Except for the fundamentalists from BOTH religions.

But you are totally missing the plot. Since when is neigborhood similar with religion? Where did I state that I'm a defender of Islam or some such thing? I've told you that I was brought up in a fundamentalistic Christian neighborhood and that I am currently living in a Muslim neighborhood and that I prefer living in the Muslim over the Christian one. Where in that statement does it say that I prefer Islam over Christianity or the Qu'ran over the Bible. I think their both ridiculous. Especially when the fundies give their version of their religion.

You've pointed to several entries on an extremist hatesite to back up your view. All entries are extremely slanted. One entry caught my eye "40% of Young Dutch Muslims Reject Democracy".
Did LGF also post the rebuttal of Frank Buijs, Froukje Demant en Atef Hamdy, the three researchers from that report? I guess not.
In short: "This is not what the report says". The report has found that 40% of Moroccan (not Turkish, not Bosnian, not Arabic, not Indonesian) youth thinks that an Islamic lifestyle and a Western-European lifestyle are incompatible with each other. Big difference, it doesn't say how many support either one of these lifestyles.

I think a fundamentalistic Christian lifestyle is incompatible with a Gay lifestyle. What does that make me?

"In other words: there are numerous instances in the Bible that are equally racist and sexist as the Qu'ran." Posted by: Willem van Oranje

That's completely false. The Bible says that ALL people are equal, regardless of race or sex. Your ignorance is appalling. Where's your condemnation of Islam's racism towards Jews and Blacks?

"Even worse, the Biblical God goes on a smiting-rampage like a little kid with ADHD who didn't get the medication." -Willem van Oranje

That is incredibly blasphemous.

"...tremendously but both are not the modern views of both religions. Except for the fundamentalists from BOTH religions."-Willem van Oranje

Again you have no clue. Your ignorance is really astounding. Read the New Testament of the Bible for Jesus' "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy". As for Islam, the Qur'an's last everlasting command is for ALL Muslims to wage a global jihad against all non-Muslims until Islam reigns supreme over the Earth. Read the "Jihad" link above for proof. Also, where have you been the last 5 years?!? Seriously! 9/11, Madrid, London 7/7, Bali, Beslan school massacre, 17 Canadian terrorists, NYC Path train plot, etc., etc., ring a bell???

"Except for the fundamentalists from BOTH religions."-Willem van Oranje

One more thing, those Muslim "fundamentalists" are involved in almost ALL of the current world wars. TheReligionOfPeace.com

"I think their both ridiculous. Especially when the fundies give their version of their religion."-Posted by: Willem van Oranje

You obviously don't understand either one of them; so what you think of them is highly suspect. But, whatever.

"You've pointed to several entries on an extremist hatesite to back up your view."

"Extremist hatesite", huh? Whatever gets you through the night, Willem. The hate and the violence and the beheadings and the stonings and the honor killings and the hangings and the, "Die infidels, die!" and the suicide bombings and the terrorist bombings and the jihads are perpetrated by Muslims as reported by Reuters, AP, the BBC, and a slew of other media outlets. LGF simply lists these articles and gives posters a chance to comment on them. Islam IS extremely hateful. Glad you noticed.

"I think a fundamentalistic Christian lifestyle is incompatible with a Gay lifestyle. What does that make me?"-Posted by: Willem van Oranje

Correct. But, you also know that Christians won't kill you for being gay. Murder is against Christianity. In Islam, you are considered both gay and an infidel. Your survival in an Islamic country would be questionable. Like I said before, good luck and stay safe.

Freedom-

Thought this may interest a scholar such as yourself.

Does The Bible Preach Violence?

Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example.

This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.

Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However, this would not stop a Christian terrorist from interpreting the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors, as Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095 or as many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery.

Political and religious extremists have abused Islamic, Jewish, or Christian scriptures continuously throughout history. Cal Thomas, a man who claims to be Christian, would do well to learn something of his own faith s scriptures and history before accusing Islam s Quran of promoting violence.

-- Edward Flaherty

That is incredibly blasphemous.

Read your bible.

LOL, Leftorium! You WISH I was quoting the Qu'ran and Ahadith out of context in an attempt to distort Islam. The truth is the context promotes violence-extremely brutal violence. If you want to read the entire Qur'an and Ahadith for yourself to get the complete context, here they are in their entirety: USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts I encourage you to read them. Of course, you won't do that. You will probably continue to deny that Islam promotes violence right up to the point where some jihadi raises his sword above your neck. Jihad

Willem van Oranje, God did smite people. It was your characterization of God that was blasphemous. An intelligent person would take the smiting as a warning that you, Willem, will one day stand before God and He will judge you. Do you want to spend eternity in Heaven or in Hell?

Willem-
It's no use trying to reason with types like Freedom 1. He's the same kind of person who used to tell me when I was a kid that if we didn't eat our vegetables, pray to Jesus 3 times a day, and say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning then the Commie heathens would come and take our houses away.
People like him are driven by fear. They need to have an object to hate, that’s what drives them. Don't try to wrestle them from that fear because it's wrapped tight around them like a security blanket. After he's done hating Islam and it's practitioners he'll move on to other groups. All you can do is just sit back and enjoy the spectical he'll make of himself.

Leftorium,

I don't know much about Ed Flaherty, but some of his assessments of biblical teachings are stunningly innaccurate:

Mark 7:9 does NOT have Jesus condoning the killing of children. In Mark 7:6 through 7:13, Jesus tells the Pharisees that their strict religious rules are self-contradictory, and he gives an example where their observance of the old law ran contrary to a specific regulation that had newer origins. Jesus is CLEARLY not advocating for any piece of the Pharisees' regulations, and this fact is plainly evident from the text.

Luke 19:22-27 are part of a parable, a fictitious story that Jesus tells his disciple to illustrate some principle. This particular story illustrates God's expectation that we will wisely use the gifts and resources that we have been given in this life, and that God's judgement for those who refuse to obey will be destruction (eternal damnation, etc). This is nothing new; the whole sinners-go-to-hell axiom is probably the most common criticism of christianity. But it is ludicrous to claim that Jesus is ordering the death of anyone in these verses.

As for the other verses that Laferty points out, these are all from the old-testament. Christians study the old testament, and are bound to recognize all of it as truth. But the teachings of the old testament are NOT the basis of christianity. The teachings of Jesus are the basis of christianity, and the law of Moses (contained in the old testament) forms the basis of Judaism.

There is no doubt that the old testament contains a lot of violence. But in order to accuse christians of following an inherently violent/hateful religion, I think it is important to prove that Jesus preached violence/hate, which he very simply did not.

"I don't know much about Ed Flaherty, but some of his assessments of biblical teachings are stunningly innaccurate:"

-Nate

OMG Nate!! That's the point!!!! Jesus, are you Conservatives so paranoid and looking to be attacked that you argue with people who are AGREEING WITH YOU!!!!!!!
Damn it's like talking to a brick wall in here.
Flaherty is saying that people who condemn the Koran and Muhammid are wrong because they base their criticism on partial or out of context information. He use's the Bible as an example of how you can take texts out of context. By using the Bible he counts on us knowing the true intent of the book while he selectively quotes from it taking it's meaning into a new and unintended direction. Thus he is drawing a comparison between what he did and what wackos like Freedom 1 do with the Koran.
Whew.

Oh, right, I missed that. Cool, well that makes me feel better about him then.

I can't really comment on any of the comparisons with the Koran, because I know very little about Islam. I will change that one of these days.

Nate-

Sorry about the heat in my last post, my bad, that really should have been directed at Freedom 1. I really don't know much about you and I think we may not agree on alot but I just wanted to say you showed real class in not commenting on something before you know more about it . And if you do want to investigate the subject, get a full range of sources. I wished freedom1 would heed your example and do a little more unbiased investigation.

Nate-

Sorry about the heat in my last post, my bad, that really should have been directed at Freedom 1. I really don't know much about you and I think we may not agree on alot but I just wanted to say you showed real class in not commenting on something before you know more about it . And if you do want to investigate the subject, get a full range of sources. I wished freedom1 would heed your example and do a little more unbiased investigation.

No worries!