What times we live in! This threat to our democracy – a threat that is not communists, or socialists, or fascists, but is fundamental religious zealots. Zealots, who in a power grab, overrun that bright line, that firewall, that separates church and state – and leads those who will follow the rest of the crowd. We have seen those crowds before - all through history - do I need to list them out for you? Good people who do bad things caught up behind the seemingly God inspired leaders.
No, I’m not speaking of Hezbollah, or Hamas, or the Islamic Jihad, or even Al-Qaida.
I’m talking about Southern Baptists. Baptists, who not too many years ago were relatively independent and loosely associated Protestant churches, that have now been overtaken and strictly organized by an aging but fanatical, and inerrantly believing their word-by-word interpretation of the King James Version of the Christian Bible, group of zealots -- who believe they alone have God’s personal blessing.
They hate the direction that American families have gone, adultery, rampant unwed mothers the rule, single family parenting, abortions, soaring divorce. And like the power grabs of religious fundamentalists everywhere – there has to be a devil. For the Islamic zealots – it’s Israel. For Southern Baptists – it’s the queers. Queers are responsible for the decline of the American family and their queer agenda has to be stopped.
How stupid really are Americans? Didn’t Lincoln say you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time – but you can’t fool the American people forever. Hopefully forever comes before November – because in November the Virginia electorate go to the polls – those relatively few who can drag themselves away from work and shopping to take the few minutes behind the curtain. And fewer still will have any idea what the first ballot issue is about – an amendment – to our Bill of Rights – to for the first time in our history to engrave in our most hallowed document of state, a state endorsed and prescribed discrimination against a minority of our citizens.
Why? Because it is a low and debased trick to energize the fundamentalist Republican base, who might otherwise notice that in the past six years, with their party in control of all branches of federal and most state governments – that just about any measurable quality of life has deteriorated. It plays on ignorance and it plays on fear and it plays on bigotry and it plays on the basest of human emotions.
They know – science and medicine knows – enlightened people know – homosexuality is NOT a moral choice – it IS a condition of being – probably closer to being left-handed. There is not an iota of evidence that giving our gay citizens equal civil rights to their straight families, neighbors, coworkers – there is not one iota of valid argument that giving homosexuals equality in civil law with heterosexuals will adversely affect anyone’s marriage or anyone’s family.
Virginians – where is your commonsense? Commonsense argues that allowing, finally, for gays to have stable and civil recognized relationships, and the attendant responsibilities and benefits, will be a step towards embracing family values. To offer equal protection to the gay children, natural or adopted, by gay parents is an embracing of family values.
But, I have to say, by making an issue out of gay marriage Republicans cleverly hope to divert attention. Gays have little if anything to do with the state of marriage today in America and legislating away their arguably inalienable rights is not going to either help marriage or help homosexuals. But that is not the intention. The intention is to divert attention – and to ensure their hold on the reins of power.
Sort of like the Muslim religious fundamentalists – who also have crossed long ago that bright line, that firewall between church and state - a protection our forebears so wisely crafted when they originally formed this union.
========================
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Martin Niemoelle
Mark, I agree that the best thing we can do is look at a difficult political or moral issue with reason and intelligence. That applies not only to gay marriage but many other issues as well.
However, as usual, you ALWAYS blame the left only for making mistakes. Conservatives ALSO respond to heated political issues with anger, resentment, and a general attitude of superiority over other points of view. You HAVE to see this, Mark, if you say you are looking at the world through reason-seeking eyes. Conservatives are JUST AS GUILTY, if not moreso, as Liberals in treating other points of view as non-existent or with anger and condesention.
On July 4th, for example, my gf and I had a very upsetting Independence Day experience. As we took a leisurely walk through a park on a beautiful day, we heard a loud sound behind us. Looking up, above us we saw a small airplane flying with a banner attached to it that in 6 foot high letters said "This is Roe Vs. Wade." Beside that was a 10-foot by 10 foot picture of an aborted fetus, gore streaked, bloody, and very disturbing. Mark, there were very young children in the park that day, and ALL of the public was exposed, against their will, to this sight. Imagine trying to explain that to a five-year-old.
The point is this, Mark, Conservatives scream and tantrum at the mere thought of mentioning sex to young children in schools, trying to educate them about responsible ways to live (the very thing that might stop abortion), and scream and shout that the Liberals are evil for trying force their children to see things they don't want them to see (hmm, kinda like a giant flyer of abortion)and say "You are not gonna teach that to MY kid," yet they will proudly fly this abortion message high above public places for all to see.
Tell me, Mark, do you see the hypocrisy?
Tell me, Mark, who is being more childish?
I think the Conservatives, at least in this experience, are MUCH more lacking in common sense and the ability to do morally what is right, don't you??
We are in multi trillions of dollars in debt, half of which is held overseas; we are in the midst of a might struggle in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which have an uncertain outcome. We have missiles coming at us from Iraq, New Orleans to rebuild, world opinion turning against us everywhere, and what do we spend time on? - gay marriage and flag burning.
If the purpose of all this is to detract, well I guess that's fine, because there's a lot of things we would just as soon not talk about (GITMO, Abu Ghraib, American murders in Iraq, profligate spending and lack of vetos).
With all the icebergs that surround us, does flag burning compare to the danger? If my next door gay neighbor runs off to Boston to marry his same sex partner, how does this bother me?
Don't we have more important subjects to attend to?ĺ
We are multi trillions of dollars in debt, half of which is held overseas; we are in the midst of a mighty struggle in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which have an uncertain outcome. We have missiles coming at us from North Korea; we have New Orleans to rebuild, world opinion turning against us everywhere, and what do we spend time on? - gay marriage and flag burning.
If the purpose of all this is to detract, well I guess that's fine, because there's a lot of things we would just as soon not talk about (GITMO, Abu Ghraib, American murders in Iraq, profligate spending and lack of vetos).
With all the icebergs that surround us, does flag burning compare to the dangers as above? If my next door gay neighbor runs off to Boston to marry his same sex partner, how does this bother me? How does it compare to the invasion of Gaza and what our (non-response) to it?
Don't we have more important subjects to attend to?
"As Democrats, we believe that every American has a right to equal protection under the law and to live in dignity. And we must respect the right of every family to live in dignity with equal rights, responsibilities and protections under the law. Today's decision by the New York Court of Appeals, which relies on outdated and bigoted notions about families, is deeply disappointing, but it does not end the effort to achieve this goal."
-Howard Dean
Way to misuse and distort the quote. I'm sure you are proud of yourself.
Conservatives are bigots.
Robert,
Abortion is the horrific murder of unborn human beings - sorry, but anything to wake you up to just how revolting the practice is should be done. The left ensures that each and every terrorist bomb blast gets massive television coverage, so don't try to tell me that you're shocked and hurt because someone put a picture of inhuman barbarism right in front of you.
The difference, you see, is that the left is trying to push things unsupported by the broad majority of the American people - the people, for whatever reason, don't want gay marriage. The left is, indeed, trying to shove something down our throats...and the are using dastardly and dishonest tactics in trying to get it done.
Gay Patriot shows just how the gay marriage issue SHOULD have been approached by gay marriage advocates - that it wasn't is no fault of the right, and if we are outraged, it is because of the outrageous behaviour of the left on this matter, as well as all too many others.
BMOC,
Real worthwhile contribution to the debate - Robert, I think that is Q.E.D. for me.
Mark,
You mentioned previously that Man is fallen. I'm curious how that concept fits into your stands on (1) abortion, (2) invitro fertilization, and (2) collateral damage. In other words, if it is absolutely morally wrong in every instance to deprive a fertilized egg of the chance to live a long, healthy life, then it seems to me that both (2) and (3) should be equally and absolutely abhorrent to you. But that doesn't seem to be the case. As far as I know you have never mentioned (2). And as far as (3) goes, as far as I can tell that's just the cost of doing business -- e.g., if a terrorist is standing next to (or even MAY BE standing next to) a pregnant woman when you blow him to kingdom come, well, that's the breaks. Mind you, I'm not condemning any of your opinions. I'm just wondering how you rationalize them. It seems to me that there's a certain amount of moral relativism involved.
It is an unfortunate circumstance. The GOP's 'vision' has been proven to be an absolute failure. Antiquated and regressive. Good luck with that.
John's litany of Neorad talking points makes no real point at all, other than to illustrate the dependence of the New Radical Liberal on others to do his thinking for him and to tell him what to say.
Yes, we're in a world of hurt. Yes, bad things are happening all around us. John is deeply concerned, evidently, about "world opinion turning against us" though that is nothing new and cannot be avoided. When and if we fall to the status of other once-great nations, and other countries no longer envy us or resent us for being strong, free, rich, comfortable, safe, and a land of oppportunity, we may then be found acceptable to others in the same boat. But as I have said in other posts, there are two ways to look at those who have more than we do: To see this as proof that it is possible to strive and achieve, or to sulk and try to bring them down to our level. I look at the many many millions in the world who have had the wisdom to take the first approach when seeing the greatness of America, who have come here specifically for the freedom, the safety, and above all the opportunity, and I look at the others who simply wallow in envy and resentment and wish we would be punished for our greatness, and I make a conscious choice about which response I find more important. John appears to be siding with the malcontents.
But back to the thread. While there are some conservatives who take a very hardline and intolerant view of homosexuality, most simply do not care about the private lives of people.
However, there is a many-centuries-old cultural and traditional view of the unique relationship which we call "marriage". In all of human history, this relationship, which is a legal as well as sometimes spiritual union, has had very specific parameters, and these definitions have accumulated great, deep, profound, meaning to many millions of people.
The strident and relentless determination of a few radical homosexuals to hijack this exact word and change it to mean something very different from its historical and cultural and religious meaning is the heart of the matter. And this is NOT a seeking of "equal rights". It is the effort to IMPOSE an alien POLITICAL agenda on an unwilling people. This is not based on a desire to have equal protection under the law---much of it is to flaunt a feeling of disrespect for those who value tradition, and/or religion.
If the gay acitivist community were to simply present a plan for acquiring equal protections and equal status, but without the insistence on the word "marriage" I think they would be successful. It is the disrespect for those for whom the traditional meaning is so important that is creating most of the hard feelings.
And what I find so amazing is that the party which constantly brags about its "tolerance" is so INtolerant of the deeply held religions and cultural feelings of so many.
Robert says:
"Imagine trying to explain that to a five-year-old."
Imagine trying to explain that he would have had a brother or a sister, but Mommy was in line for a promotion, or wanted to be able to take the family to Disneyland, so had the sibling-to-be scraped out.
Imagine trying to explain to a five-year-old that some children are important, and some are not, and those that are not are simply killed.
Imagine trying to explain to that five-year-old that you can only kill very tiny children, who have not yet had a chance to breathe, even though they COULD breathe if just allowed to slide five more inches down the birth canal.
Imagine trying to explain to a five-year-old that life is not important, or even protected, merely because it IS life, but that each Mommy can choose for herself if the life of her child is important, or legal, or worthy of protection.
I'm in favor of protecting children from all kinds of things they simply are not equipped to handle. I am disgusted by the theft of childhood from children, by the fact that six-year-olds know that you kiss a Mommy one way (closed mouth, pursed lips) but you kiss a girlfriend or boyfriend with a wide-open mouth and a thrusting tongue and lots of grinding back and forth. I am in favor of protecting children from those who want to "love" them by being sexual with them. I am in favor of protecting them from the horrors of much of life in this century, from kidnaping and torture and the knowledge that this happens to others. But first of all, I am in favor of protecting them by letting them be born, from the acts of selfish women and irresponsble men.
And if that bloody image was recognizable as a baby, and therefore frightening to children, it was obviously killed far beyond the much-claimed "bundle of tissue" stage the pro-abortionists like to describe to encourage women to get rid of their unborn children. Blobs of unrecognizable "tissue" do not frighten children.
Almiranta, my point was this - WHY is it okay to show these images (as an obvious political ploy) but NOT okay to talk about sex?
If people were more responsible about sex we might not need abortion.
However, Conservatives would rather shield their children from sex and them condemn people later in life when they have irresponsible sex (because Conservatives denied them education about RESPONSIBLE things to do and explanations of sex so that people may be more responsible instead of ignorant about it), and then wonder why people might consider abortion.
The point is this - why is a naked human body more horrible to show a child than images of death?
If children were more educated about sex, abortion might never have to occur.
Conservatives are ill-informed, hypocritical, and just plain lack common sense and judgement when they say "you're not gonna teach MY kid about sex, " yet proudly go around condemning pro-choice people.
It is idiocy, pure and simple, and is ALL about politics and NOT about saving lives.
If we could all get together on this issue, we might find a REAL soultion, but no, Conservatives would rather bash Liberals and claim they are right than do something useful.
Please for the love of GOD tell me that you are kidding.
First off, who are you to say what's wrong and what's right? Whatever happened to the seperation of church and state? What logical reason is there for a ban on gay marriage? What have the gays done to deserve second class citizenship? Being "icky"?
Please sir, give me one good reason that gay marriage should be banned that doesn't involve the phrase "Because god said so" or "Because god made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
If you can do this one little thing, I'll give you my rebuttal and show you that us gays aren't idiots as you seem to inisinuate.
Thanks.
What times we live in! This threat to our democracy – a threat that is not communists, or socialists, or fascists, but is fundamental religious zealots. Zealots, who in a power grab, overrun that bright line, that firewall, that separates church and state – and leads those who will follow the rest of the crowd. We have seen those crowds before - all through history - do I need to list them out for you? Good people who do bad things caught up behind the seemingly God inspired leaders.
No, I’m not speaking of Hezbollah, or Hamas, or the Islamic Jihad, or even Al-Qaida.
I’m talking about Southern Baptists. Baptists, who not too many years ago were relatively independent and loosely associated Protestant churches, that have now been overtaken and strictly organized by an aging but fanatical, and inerrantly believing their word-by-word interpretation of the King James Version of the Christian Bible, group of zealots -- who believe they alone have God’s personal blessing.
They hate the direction that American families have gone, adultery, rampant unwed mothers the rule, single family parenting, abortions, soaring divorce. And like the power grabs of religious fundamentalists everywhere – there has to be a devil. For the Islamic zealots – it’s Israel. For Southern Baptists – it’s the queers. Queers are responsible for the decline of the American family and their queer agenda has to be stopped.
How stupid really are Americans? Didn’t Lincoln say you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time – but you can’t fool the American people forever. Hopefully forever comes before November – because in November the Virginia electorate go to the polls – those relatively few who can drag themselves away from work and shopping to take the few minutes behind the curtain. And fewer still will have any idea what the first ballot issue is about – an amendment – to our Bill of Rights – to for the first time in our history to engrave in our most hallowed document of state, a state endorsed and prescribed discrimination against a minority of our citizens.
Why? Because it is a low and debased trick to energize the fundamentalist Republican base, who might otherwise notice that in the past six years, with their party in control of all branches of federal and most state governments – that just about any measurable quality of life has deteriorated. It plays on ignorance and it plays on fear and it plays on bigotry and it plays on the basest of human emotions.
They know – science and medicine knows – enlightened people know – homosexuality is NOT a moral choice – it IS a condition of being – probably closer to being left-handed. There is not an iota of evidence that giving our gay citizens equal civil rights to their straight families, neighbors, coworkers – there is not one iota of valid argument that giving homosexuals equality in civil law with heterosexuals will adversely affect anyone’s marriage or anyone’s family.
Virginians – where is your commonsense? Commonsense argues that allowing, finally, for gays to have stable and civil recognized relationships, and the attendant responsibilities and benefits, will be a step towards embracing family values. To offer equal protection to the gay children, natural or adopted, by gay parents is an embracing of family values.
But, I have to say, by making an issue out of gay marriage Republicans cleverly hope to divert attention. Gays have little if anything to do with the state of marriage today in America and legislating away their arguably inalienable rights is not going to either help marriage or help homosexuals. But that is not the intention. The intention is to divert attention – and to ensure their hold on the reins of power.
Sort of like the Muslim religious fundamentalists – who also have crossed long ago that bright line, that firewall between church and state - a protection our forebears so wisely crafted when they originally formed this union.
========================
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Martin Niemoelle