JS,
It's true that there are a number of liberals in the military. However, they seem to be the "old school" liberals: strong on defense, but still prone to seek governmental solutions to problems that would be better solved by the government butting out. When I think of "good" liberals (those who place the good of the country above partisan politics), I think of Joe Lieberman, Sam Nunn, Zell Miller, Scoop Jackson, and JFK. I would hope you fall into that category.
The issue we conservatives have with the most vocal liberals - those who are anti-military, anti-freedom, anti-democracy, and anti-Bush - is that they are weak on national defense, they deny or ignore the great good that the US military and our foreign policies have produced, they care olnly about attacking the President, and are pessimists at heart.
They consistently bash the President over his "failed" policies, yet:
He has taken the fight against global terrorism to the terrorist, rather than allow us to be hit again and again, as President Clinton did.
He has enforced the UN Cease-fire and the 17 UN Resolutions against Iraq when no other leader would.
He has caused the liberation of 50,000,000 Afghans and Iraqis from dictators, murderers, and tyrants.
He has fostered the birth of democracy in the Middle East, when democracy has never existed, except in Israel.
He is addressing the issues of North Korea (which was caused by the failed policies of the Clinton Administration, regardless of how Ms. Albright attempts to spin the facts), and of Iran (which was caused by the failed policies of the Carter ADministration and never addressed by the Clinton Administration), through diplomacy.
The Administration has withstood a recession that began before Bush took office, 9/11, and several natural disasters, yet the liberals attack every solution developed by the Administration while presenting no solutions of their own, except throwing more money at the problems.
The tax cuts he has pushed through congress has spurred widespread economic growth, increased employment, low unemployment, and low inflation.
The tax cuts have also reduced the tax burden on the lower income earners, while increasing the burden on those in the higher income brackets (exactly the opposite that the liberals claim).
The Global War on Terror is succeeding in killing or capturing terrorists and disrupting their plans, regardless of the media's attempts to undermine the efforts by disclosing classified anti-terrorism programs.
He has weathered non-stop attacks by liberals and their accomplises in the MSM for nearly six years. Many of the attacks are based on false premises.
As for your platoons 70/30 split for Kerry, it was obviously an exception, rather than the rule. What perplexs me is how can anyone with a lengthy military career, such as you, can support an individual who apparently got himself awarded two Purple Hearts for self-inflicted wounds, left his comrades after his third Purple Heart (which was awarded by a commander who had no knowledge of the "wounds", since his commander at the time the "wounds" occurred denied the PH), visited Paris to talk with the North Vietnamese which still a member of the USRN, lied before Congress about his experiences in Viet Nam, lied about his Cambodian adventures, lied about his involvement with the VVAW, lied about throwing his medals away, had his Silver Star certificate issued three different times, with different citations and signed by progressively senior Naval officials, ending with the Secretary of the Navy (decades after the incident for which the SS was issued), and has been a political opportunist his entire life. Even his discharge papers have irregularities. Kerry could easily clear up the controversies about his Naval career by simply signing the SF 180 and allowing the release of his military records. Since he refuses to, he obviously has something to hide. Could it be that he did not deserve the medals he received in Vietnam? Could it be that he did not recieve an honorable discharge? Enquiring minds want to know.
I can understand that, as a liberal, you wouldn't want to vote for your commander-in-chief, but Kerry had no redeeming qualities.
I'm willing to accept your claims of your military service. I just don't understand your distaste for jumping. I have my Master Wings (earned my wings in '74 while in the USMC. Spent 6+ years in a LRS Company.) I have always held that, contrary to the USAF claims about "jumping from a perfectly good airplne", "perfectly good" airplanes still crash. We jump before they do.
"I know that some of your liberalis and lefties out there genuinely support the troops and what they are fighting for."
Could you please provide proof of this statement? A list of these "liberals" that support our troops and what they're fighting for would be nice.
Here's maybe the closest any of us will be able to "share in their sacrifices."
http://www.thewartapes.com/
I'll be seeing it this weekend.
CJ,
Many liberals have fought and died in combat, same as conservatives. Are those dead liberal soldiers not heroes? Are they terrorist-lovers, like all other liberals?
By the way, what proof do you have that conservatives support our troops? Because they put a bumper sticker on their car, because they vote Republican? None of these things really helps troops in any way.
Finally, I think we all know how far your support for troops or vets goes. As long as they don't criticize Dear Leader, then they are heroes deserving our respect. The second they say something critical of Bush or his administration, they are pinko lefty wimpy terrorist-sympathizers.
I believe most people would characterize your "support" for the troops as a mile wide and an inch deep.
cj, I am guessing Mark made that statement in blind faith. If their is any known liberals and lefties it's a good chance it's a short list.
There are many liberals who believe that the general population in America has not been asked to sacrifice anything in the Global War on Terror. To this end, they advocate the resumption of the draft so all Americans can "share the sacrifice". What they really want is to generate additional animosity against the Bush Administration. The truth of the matter is that the only way a draft would be necessary is if Congress drastically increased the end strength authorizations for the four branches of the US Armed Forces and the recruiting services could not meet end strength for a sustained period of time. But there is no reason to do that. Besides, 15 years ago we were able to maintain a force structure that was about 50% larger than it is today, without a draft. The present "All Volunteer Force" is much more professional, is more dedicated, and is more effective than a force with draftees. I think our "friends" on the left should applaud the administration for being able to conduct combat operations in both Afghanistan and Iraq without an increase in end strength authorizations.
If you on the left want to "sacrifice", either because you are a patriot, or more likely, to assuage your feelings of guilt, may I suggest one or more of the following:
1. Volunteer at one of the Veterans Administration Medical Centers.
2. Volunteer at one of the Military Medical Centers.
3. Join your state's Committee for Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve (ESGR). ESGR is a DoD agency that provides education, consulting, and mediation services to employers and their employees who serve in the Guard and Reserve.
4. Volunteer or donate to your state's Family Support Group. Family Support Programs provide grants to military families who experience financial hardships.
5. Contribute to the DoD "America Supports You" program.
6. Send a care package to the troops.
7. Join or donate to one of the Military Service Orgainzations.
8. Donate Gift Certificates, Frequent Flyer Miles, or Phone Cards.
9. Donate to a Scholarship for Military Children.
10. Volunteer or donate to the USO.
11. Volunteer or donate to one of the scores of other Military Support Organizations.
I love lists! You guys are so right on the money.
I really don't like busting out my resume, but it seems like I always need to show the crazies out there that it's possible to align a leftward-leaning political philosophy with pride in my country, service to country, and support for our troops.
I work for the Department of Veterans Affairs and I have my entire professional life. Wel,, except that year I spent in Afghanistan. I've worn a uniform longer than I've worked for VA.
I'll agree that there is less of a propensity for liberal folks to join the military, but don't make the mistake of assuming that there aren't a whole bunch of us out there that maybe either developed a political conscience after we joined or are able to separate our politics from our service (as it should be).
And although I tend to leave my political beliefs at the door when I put on my soldier suit, it's probably worth mentioning that during the 2004 election cycle when I was in Afghanistan, my platoon was split 70/30 in favor of John Kerry. It didn't work out, but it says a lot.
Put me on your list.
Mark, Don't be discouraged! I have heard from multiple "horses mouths" and they see what your doing here & approve bigtime! They believe the idiological fight here at home is quite important also! I was given a token of their appreciation just for blogging here at B4B, it was an amazing experience. It's not like I have the time to really take on these libs and their insane ideology, but the common sense posts we make increase the moral of those reading, and increase confidence in the people of this country!
A-10, those are great suggestions & support groups, they also should be commonplace issues in our day to day lives!
Support your troops cause they do more than support you!
Let me be the first to call bullsh*t on JS. As you can see the military favored Bush by an astonishing 72-17 margin.
Ah yes, our troops... the REAL protecters of civil liberties, not the ACLU.
CJ - you can call bullshit all day long. Funny, I didn't see you there.
I didn't claim there was a scientific poll conducted nor was a service-wide representative sample taken. What I saw were 30 guys in a hooch at an isolated FOB in Afghanistan talking politics.
You're welcome to your opinion that the military is this great bastion of conservatism, and I won't disagree that there are a lot of conservative-minded folks in it. But there are also plenty of us who vote the other way with vigor. I'm in this fight to win and that has everything to do with the guy to my left and my right and nothing to do with my personal political ideology.
The army today is a thinking-man's army. Soldiers are smart, well-eduated, critical thinkers and they don't need to be conservatives or Republicans or even agree with their Commander-in-Chief politics or foreign policy to be great at what they do. They even vote for Democrats. I dare you to accuse them of not supporting the cause just because their voter registration card doesn't say the same thing as yours.
I suggest you invest more time doing whatever you think your part is in fighting the war on terror, and less time accusing others of not doing enough.
I'm a liberal and I've actually fought in this war on terror. There's your proof.
CJ,
Two sure give-aways:
In my 27 years in the military (USMC and ARNG), I have never, ever heard someone refer to their uniform as their "soldier suit". "BDU's", yes. "Cammies", yes. "Soldier suit", never.
Afghanistan, Iraq, and the dozens of other places our service members are fighting the GWOT are large theaters of operation. What is the chance that someone serving in one of those theaters would remember a chance encounter with someone who uses the name "CJ" on a blog. How would anyone serving in the GWOT know if you or anyone else posting on this blog or any other blog had also served in the GWOT?
Js.
Here I put my coin on the table and agree. Our Military is diverse in gender, race and politics. I know many on both sides of the street in uniform and just as many who do not belief in either party. We all have different reason’s to serve and wear the uniform and to be honest, they tend to be too complex to explain, but one reason I have found true is not politics.
But! That being said JS, I think we can all agree that the ‘liberals’ we meet in uniform tend to take off their rose colored glasses and see the real world. That does not make anyone a conservative, but it does tend to bring home the fact that the world is not all they believed it to be.
We need to separate service from politics. If you are or have, you served, be proud of that. Never take light of ones service because of how they vote! I have never asked the person next to me before boots on the ground how they vote, only, ‘are you ready’.
And again, men and woman, every color, every age has been ready, they have stepped up and put their boots down and moved forward, they don’t all like it, or want to do it, or even be there, but they have and they do. It’s something deep inside, its something so deep and so personal you spend years getting your finger on it, the reason you put those boots on, but politics ( how I vote ) is not one of them.
Js.
Here I put my coin on the table and agree. Our Military is diverse in gender, race and politics. I know many on both sides of the street in uniform and just as many who do not belief in either party. We all have different reason’s to serve and wear the uniform and to be honest, they tend to be too complex to explain, but one reason I have found true is not politics.
But! That being said JS, I think we can all agree that the ‘liberals’ we meet in uniform tend to take off their rose colored glasses and see the real world. That does not make anyone a conservative, but it does tend to bring home the fact that the world is not all they believed it to be.
We need to separate service from politics. If you are or have, you served, be proud of that. Never take light of ones service because of how they vote! I have never asked the person next to me before boots on the ground how they vote, only, ‘are you ready’.
And again, men and woman, every color, every age has been ready, they have stepped up and put their boots down and moved forward, they don’t all like it, or want to do it, or even be there, but they have and they do. It’s something deep inside, its something so deep and so personal you spend years getting your finger on it, the reason you put those boots on, but politics ( how I vote ) is not one of them.
A-10
That's what makes me sick, when you have some far left wing kook like JS pretending to be in the military. It's the most disgusting thing they can do. I guess that's the only way they think they can get some kind of respect.....if they pretend they were a real soldier. Sad and pathetic but oh so predictable.
A good friend of mine is hosting an exchange student from Pakistan. She sees hosting as an opportunity to spread goodwill to the world. There are students from around the world. I am thinking about doing this as well. Want to contribute to world peace? Check out their website:
http://aspectfoundation.org/
And what does that have to do with "vets for freedom" ash!
Burr, my email is down! I'm recieving but can't send. I'll shoot you one as soon as it is fixed. God Bless!
Bear
Well A10 listed several ways to "sacrifice"
If you on the left want to "sacrifice", either because you are a patriot, or more likely, to assuage your feelings of guilt, may I suggest one or more of the following:
I was just trying to add to his list as way's to help veterans by making war less probable.
You got a problem with that?
Hmmmmmmm.........so I guess that Iraqi family(refugees) that were staying with some friends of mine, were supposed to make war less probable (this was before we invaded)when they were telling the horror stories about saddams regime in front of our church! Wow, that idea really backfired! good suggestion tho Ash, I just don't think it's going to produce the utopian ideals you are hoping for!
CJ and A-10:
Actually, I borrowed the term "soldier suit" from David Hackworth. He uses it in the prologue to his autobiography "About Face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior " and I've also seen him use it in several articles over the years. If you don't know who he is, Google him. Here's a link for a "soldier suit" reference:
http://www.hackworth.com/26oct99.html
Third paragraph, first sentence. Sorry, I must've gone to the Ann Coulter school of plagiarism.
And A-10, I don't even understand what this means:
"Afghanistan, Iraq, and the dozens of other places our service members are fighting the GWOT are large theaters of operation. What is the chance that someone serving in one of those theaters would remember a chance encounter with someone who uses the name "CJ" on a blog. How would anyone serving in the GWOT know if you or anyone else posting on this blog or any other blog had also served in the GWOT?"
I can't believe I'm dignifying your suggestion that I'm an imposter with a response, but if you truly doubt my service, I've got a way for you to verify it. One of my former soldiers from our OEF rotation owns and runs a website called milblogging.com. Go to that website - I can throw some hits his way too, and it's a really great site that tracks thousands of servicemember blogs - e-mail JP (the webmaster) from the "contact us" section of the site and ask him anything you want about his squad leader starting with what his initials are. You can also ask how many awards of the Combat Infantryman Badge his squad leader has.
Find out if what I've written here matches what he says about me. And don't worry - he's a very conservative Republican that you can trust. Have him give you a question to ask me that only I will know the answer to.
Try it out.
JS,
Nice try. How do we know that you and the webmaster aren't the same person?
"And A-10, I don't even understand what this means"
You stated: "Funny, I didn't see you there." How would you know if you saw him there or not? You don't know who "CJ" is. For all you know, he could have been in Afghanistan or Iraq and you'd never see him. Your "Funny, I didn't see you there" statement is sign of your arrogance.
As for your apparently multiple awards of the Combat Infantryman Badge, are you the Squad Leader you are referring to? If you are, and based on your previous statement that you served one year in Afghanistan, then you can only have one CIB. AR 600-8-22 prescribes that only one award of the CIB will be made for service during a specified "conflict", "regardless of whether a soldier has served one or multiple tours". If you are wearing a CIB with a star and didn't serve during Operation Desert Shield/Storm, you don't rate the award.
I am that squad leader.
I can't convince you that I'm not the webmaster other than to ask why (in your estimation) an unsupportive, anti-war, anti-soldier left-wing liberal defeatist who never served would run such a pro-troop, pro-Bush, pro-war website, but we can certainly take this discussion offline if you need further clarification. My e-mail address is:
crispygorde@gmail.com
Bring it.
Your right-wing, conspiracy-addled brain is going to believe what it wants to, but please don't hesitate to drop me a line.
As for your reference to my arrogance, I was referring to CJ not being in the aforementioned hooch during my platoon's political discussions. If he was there he should say so. For that matter, if he was in any of those theaters at all, then thank you for your service, CJ. I'm all ears.
I know 600-8-22. And you win the prize! I was awarded my first CIB in 1991 and my second in 2004. I have orders for both. I served 5 months in SWA in 1991, 3 months in 1992, 3 months in 1993, and 1 year in Afghanistan 2004-2005. But we were talking about the GWOT, right? I never mentioned my previous experience. But you're spot on with the CIB stuff. OEF marked the start of 4th qualifying period for which the CIB is awarded.
It's obviously going to take a face-to-face meeting with picture ID, copies of orders, and a butcher's block with bright crayons so I can break it down Big Bird style for you. I'll also include a copy of my ACLU membership card.
A-10
Oh man, I can't stop laughing at JS comment. It's amazing how far a keyboard commando will go to fake his military credentials. Remember that guy recently who claimed to be an Iraqi vet and that he killed 200 innocent Iraqis? Only took a few minutes for real military to out him as a fraud. This JS fraud reminds me of him.
CJ,
Right, Jessie Macbeth. Washed out of Basic Training, claimed he was Ranger and SF qualified. Won the Bronze Star, two awards of the CIB, and jump wings with three combat stars, meaning three combat jumps. Thats amazing since there have been only two combat jumps in the past ten years.
Operation Bright Star, in Afghansitan in 2001 - 147 airborne ranger jumpers
Operation Option North, in Iraq in 2003 - approx 1,000 paratrooper of the 173d Airborne Brigade, 18th Expeditionary group-USAF and 250th Forward Support Team (ABN).
MacBeth claimed he was in the 3rd Battalion, 75th Infantry Regiment, a Ranger Unit. They did not participate in the Iraqi airborne operation.
Yeah, that guy. You think JS could be him?
JS,
Since you claim to work for the VA, yet served one year in Afghanistan, you must be in the Reserve Components. ARNG or USAR? Which state and unit?
As for being having a "right-wing, conspiracy-addled brain", I might lean to the right, but I've never met a conspiracy that I couldn't get a good laugh out of.
"It's obviously going to take a face-to-face meeting with picture ID, copies of orders, and a butcher's block with bright crayons so I can break it down Big Bird style for you. I'll also include a copy of my ACLU membership card."
Still playing with crayons, are you. Well sonny, I enlisted into the Marines while you were still in diapers (1973). And I'll match my DD Form 2 (Retired) as a LTC against your's any day.
Finally, I never "estimated" that you were a "an unsupportive, anti-war, anti-soldier left-wing liberal defeatist". Those are your words, not mine. For all I know you are a supportive, pro-freedom, pro-soldier left-wing liberal defeatist. But you'd be about the only one on earth.
If you did serve, I applaud your service. If you are a hoax, you are an insult to those of us who have devoted our entire adult lives in service to our great nation. We've had too many chair-borne Rangers on this and other sites. When you arrive on the scene, spewing opinions as facts, and making claims that are 180 degrees out of phase with reality, you are going to be questioned.
A-10:
I don't claim to work for VA, I do work for VA. I started with VA after I was discharged from the regular army, through college, up to the present day.
I was, until earlier this year, a member of the VAARNG, Company A, 3rd Battalion, 116th Infantry, 29th ID (L), part of the modern incarnation of the Stonewall Brigade. I'm sure, given your rank, you can check into and verify our deployment. E-mail me. I'll send you copies of my orders.
Prior to that I was just a career enlisted grunt who chose to end his 16 year-career because he has a little girl at home who needs him more than the army does. Definitely not much glamour, and I make no claim of SF tabs, Ranger School, Bronze Stars, or combat jumps. I am Airborne qualified, but I never had much of a taste for jumping. My 2nd Award CIB is my proudest achievement in life outside of fatherhood. I got promoted to about 3 ranks higher than I ever though I would. But through this entire exchange, I never once questioned your military career, I've just defended my own. I offer you my respect and thanks for your many years of service.
I suspect my tone was a direct result of the "two sure give-aways" you alleged. I don't like the suggestion that I'm a fraud, and I don't really care if you are a retired LTC, a dishonorably discharged private, or Batman. The burden of proving I'm a liar, or a "chair-borne Ranger," is on you. I've given you some easy ways to verify everything I've said here - the website, my e-mail. Hell, I'll go into AKO and get my Company Commander's e-mail address for you. Use them.
The conspiracy was the idea that I would go to the trouble to set up an awesome website like milblogging.com, send you there, and then pretend to be someone else to perpetuate a lie that I have no reason to tell. Your insinuations didn't really seem shrouded in laughter either.
I don't believe I said anything initially that wasn't factual, much less out of phase with reality. The assertions I made were based on my own personal observations, and I hope you won't disagree that soldiers today are smarter, better informed, and independent-minded than ever.
Like you, I have actively devoted my entire adult life to the defense of this country. I've also cared for those that have served her, and for a long time now, both.
And perhaps not quantitatively, but qualitatively, I'll match my 2 DD 214s and NGB 22 with you as well.
JS,
It's true that there are a number of liberals in the military. However, they seem to be the "old school" liberals: strong on defense, but still prone to seek governmental solutions to problems that would be better solved by the government butting out. When I think of "good" liberals (those who place the good of the country above partisan politics), I think of Joe Lieberman, Sam Nunn, Zell Miller, Scoop Jackson, and JFK. I would hope you fall into that category.
The issue we conservatives have with the most vocal liberals - those who are anti-military, anti-freedom, anti-democracy, and anti-Bush - is that they are weak on national defense, they deny or ignore the great good that the US military and our foreign policies have produced, they care olnly about attacking the President, and are pessimists at heart.
They consistently bash the President over his "failed" policies, yet:
He has taken the fight against global terrorism to the terrorist, rather than allow us to be hit again and again, as President Clinton did.
He has enforced the UN Cease-fire and the 17 UN Resolutions against Iraq when no other leader would.
He has caused the liberation of 50,000,000 Afghans and Iraqis from dictators, murderers, and tyrants.
He has fostered the birth of democracy in the Middle East, when democracy has never existed, except in Israel.
He is addressing the issues of North Korea (which was caused by the failed policies of the Clinton Administration, regardless of how Ms. Albright attempts to spin the facts), and of Iran (which was caused by the failed policies of the Carter ADministration and never addressed by the Clinton Administration), through diplomacy.
The Administration has withstood a recession that began before Bush took office, 9/11, and several natural disasters, yet the liberals attack every solution developed by the Administration while presenting no solutions of their own, except throwing more money at the problems.
The tax cuts he has pushed through congress has spurred widespread economic growth, increased employment, low unemployment, and low inflation.
The tax cuts have also reduced the tax burden on the lower income earners, while increasing the burden on those in the higher income brackets (exactly the opposite that the liberals claim).
The Global War on Terror is succeeding in killing or capturing terrorists and disrupting their plans, regardless of the media's attempts to undermine the efforts by disclosing classified anti-terrorism programs.
He has weathered non-stop attacks by liberals and their accomplises in the MSM for nearly six years. Many of the attacks are based on false premises.
As for your platoons 70/30 split for Kerry, it was obviously an exception, rather than the rule. What perplexs me is how can anyone with a lengthy military career, such as you, can support an individual who apparently got himself awarded two Purple Hearts for self-inflicted wounds, left his comrades after his third Purple Heart (which was awarded by a commander who had no knowledge of the "wounds", since his commander at the time the "wounds" occurred denied the PH), visited Paris to talk with the North Vietnamese which still a member of the USRN, lied before Congress about his experiences in Viet Nam, lied about his Cambodian adventures, lied about his involvement with the VVAW, lied about throwing his medals away, had his Silver Star certificate issued three different times, with different citations and signed by progressively senior Naval officials, ending with the Secretary of the Navy (decades after the incident for which the SS was issued), and has been a political opportunist his entire life. Even his discharge papers have irregularities. Kerry could easily clear up the controversies about his Naval career by simply signing the SF 180 and allowing the release of his military records. Since he refuses to, he obviously has something to hide. Could it be that he did not deserve the medals he received in Vietnam? Could it be that he did not recieve an honorable discharge? Enquiring minds want to know.
I can understand that, as a liberal, you wouldn't want to vote for your commander-in-chief, but Kerry had no redeeming qualities.
I'm willing to accept your claims of your military service. I just don't understand your distaste for jumping. I have my Master Wings (earned my wings in '74 while in the USMC. Spent 6+ years in a LRS Company.) I have always held that, contrary to the USAF claims about "jumping from a perfectly good airplne", "perfectly good" airplanes still crash. We jump before they do.
A-10
You can choose to believe this obvious imposter but I'm not falling for it. People like him disgust me!
CJ,
Yes, he could be a poser, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing about or tracking down his military service. Its easy to make claims and then put the burden of proof on us to prove he is not who he says he is. If he's lying, he's the one who has to live with that on his conscience, not me.
I am interested in his response to my question as to why he, and 70% of his "platoon" members, felt that Kerry would be a better President than President Bush, and his explaination of Kerry's shady military record.
JS,
You have stated which unit you claim you were last with in the VA ARNG. Which unit did you deploy with?
The above post specifies my unit - A/3/116, 29th ID (L).
I'll get into the John Kerry stuff as time permits.
CJ - fuck you. If you have any friends, fuck them too.
JS,
You weren't clear that A/3/116 was the unit that was deployed.
What region in Afghanistan did the unit operate in?
Who was the Bn Cdr?