I think you mean "Carson," not "Carlson." I'm surprised it's not in your library.

Another environmental reminder:

If this plays out as predicted, anyone living in the desert states (like Mark) will be forced to move and have all their property value go to zero. Remember where you get your water from buddy. Just imagine what the impact of a significant reduction in snow pack does to Sin City.

Also, that article is just more misinformation in a different wrapper. There is much to be done. There is much we could have been doing already. Unfortunately, the Republican Party doesn't like to do things like raise CAFE standards, regulate the power industry, or heaven forbid, say anything to big oil. Hell, they won't even allow catalytic converters to be added to lawn mowers. For those of you who have been around more than 20 yrs, you remember what the air and water quality used to be and what it is now. Funny, the Republicans fought that as well. They seem to be genetically incapable of doing anything because it is the right thing to do, only things that make the select few wealthy at the expense of the rest of us.

GOP = Greed over People

I guess you're not an entirely stupid man, allthough your ignorance certainly shines through. keep an open mind man. The truth is what we are all seeking...linus

"Walk me through it - explain to me precisely how the world will warm up mostly due to human agency (and the warming must be, oh, at least 90% human caused if there is to be any chance that human action can halt or reverse it)...and when I say precisely, I mean that. I'm not an entirely stupid man - I can grasp a lot of sophisticated science."

The language of global warming theory is highly mathematical. It is written as a set of partial differential equations + some statistical mechanics. Many of theese have very complex boundary conditions and many of the solutions are highly chaotic. Theese equations are not solvable.

Nothing can currently be done, so we may as well just do nothing.

Wasn't that the Left's position on Iraq?

We should strive to make the world the kind of place we want to live in. And nobody does the impossible without attempting the impossible.

Well, it's worth pointing out that Ehrlich's starting point in The Population Bomb was that human population level would continue to grow at an exponential rate.

Population growth slowed down. One could argue that his "doomsaying," and that of others, contributed to this slow-down. It's especially telling that the slow-down is mostly in the developed world. Although, he did incorrectly assume that agricultural growth would continue to be linear, a matter he errored on.

And Mark, WRT to your claim of your "bedrock position" for the past decade - you are clearly full of sh*t. If we acted resolutely to limit carbon emission growth 10 years ago, we wouldn't have reached the critical juncture we're at now. No sane person would hold such a dual position 10 years ago, when we had an easier time of implementing corrective measures.

Hmm...10 years ago who was in the White House, and didn't he refuse to send the Kyoto Treaty to the Senate because it voted 95-0 not to accept it? There were just a few Democrat votes in that number, too.

The only "consensus" on global warming appears to be that it's a tool bash the Republicans for partisan gain. The Democrat shills around here certainly treat it that way.

3moyrs,winn,tSTh,

bzzzzz chk bzzzzzzzzz check 1,2,3 lefties do you read?.............

It is so funny to watch you leftwing theologians on the weather, I aint a kiddin ya!!

I bet all of ya go around with your hair standing straight up from all the lightning studies you've been doing lately.........

:)HaaaaaaaHeeeeeee still laughing oh and it hurts!!!!

Jeremiah

Orion,

That's just changing the topic.

But anyway, believe it or not, it's possible for a person to have beliefs that don't 100% adhere to one side of the 2 party system.

Not that it's relevant to the discussion of what we should do now.

This has been my bedrock position for about a decade now - if global warming is happening in the manner the alarmists assert,

Emphasis added....Mark I'd just substitute informed here in place of alarmist.....

Jeremiah, I'm going to take a wild stab here, but based on your previous posts, I'm guessing you think the apocalypse or endtimes are well nigh. So really why worry about the future of the earth when your saviour is coming so soon?

"The only "consensus" on global warming appears to be that it's a tool bash the Republicans for partisan gain."

Wrong Orion, there is a vast majority consensus that the earth is warming, and a majority believe that mankind is contributing.

Those believing it is a tool to bash Republicans is plain paranoia. (Paranoia? Hey that might explain their intense fear of terrorists)

"So, before I'll sign on to any theory requiring massive chance, I'll want 100% proof that we're not talking about the latest version of The Population Bomb."

So let me get this straight: a 1% chance of a terrorist attack is worth launching a war over, but a 99% chance of global warming isn't enough to warrant higher gas mileage standards?

Well, you gotta have standards, I guess.

In the last couple posts on this subject, the only concrete solution offered (I think by Ash) is to raise CAFE standards to 45mpg. I hate to break it to all you global warming alarmists, but that isn't going to amount to a drop of water in the ocean if all the dire predictions of global catastrophe are true. According to Algore, we've only got 10 years left (which he's been saying for about 13 years) before we reach the point of no return.

Come on guys, surely you've got some realistic solutions (assuming there really is a human caused/human solvable problem, of which many of us are more than skeptical.) besides getting better gas mileage. Ash, TEO, maf, winnowhead -- unless you start coming up with some real, workable solutions, you're just be pissin' into the wind.

"So, before I'll sign on to any theory requiring massive chance, I'll want 100% proof that we're not talking about the latest version of The Population Bomb."

Funny - you didn't need anything remotely near "100% proof" of a threat to sign off on an ill-advised conquest of Iraq. All you needed was some fuzzy splotches on recon photos doctored with some menacing labels - that was enough to commit to full scale invasion and occupation.

Ash quote--Jeremiah, I'm going to take a wild stab here, but based on your previous posts, I'm guessing you think the apocalypse or endtimes are well nigh. So really why worry about the future of the earth when your saviour is coming so soon?
__________________________________________________

Ash,

When you say a "wild stab" you hit it right, and it amounts to just that and nothing more!!

It's so much relevant as to what the weather is doing as to why the end times is so nigh! Sure God creates weather phenomena to let us know that He is still there and HE will always be there, and sometimes He has to get little rough in terms of the weather to wake people up so to speak and let them know that He is displeased with their OUT OF TOUCH LIFESTYLES!!

SO!, The real reason I and most christian's can tell that the world is coming to an end is because of the nature to which people have turned from God so to speak, as HE has said "there will be wars and rumors of wars" You see the reprobate mind everywhere, you see homosexuality rampant, and you see the murder of innocent little newborns!, How horrible mankind has treated the Gift that God has bestowed upon Him! The Life that ONLY HE can give!

So, I hope you understand that it's NOT just the weather but the number one cause is MANKIND himself, and man has indeed took his attention off of the one who took HIS mighty hand to create the world and thusly mankind cannot understand why the weather is so wicked the way it is! It's NOT what mankind has created (invented) by creating cars and using fossil fuels! But instead, it's mankind's WICKED SINFUL WAYS, THUSLY, MAN'S HEART HAS HARDENED and undoubtedly has caused God to stir his finger on the earth! I mean, all HE has to do is think it and it happens!! He could create another Katrina tomorrow or another one MORE powerful than Katrina!

But here's the thing about it just to give you a clue which obviously says it all!

The reason I worry, is not about the earth but about the people in it and their souls, they need to take a hint and turn from their wicked ways or else they will be LOST!, and that's why we as christian's need to work as hard as we can to spread the good news! and save as many souls as we can, before the Lord, indeed, does in fact, TRULY RETURN!

and ash I really hope you will take the time to understand this because it's NO laughing matter!
This is the truth! It's right there for you I have re-stated it for you three times!

so again, How many times do I have to say it: AMERICA! REPENT AND YOU WILL FIND PEACE!

Jeremiah

Ash,

I made a boo-boo there at the beginning where I said "It's so relevant" what I really meant was NOT so relevant!

Jeremiah

Yes Ash, and 30 years ago there was a vast majority that said it was cooling, too.

They just don't know. PERIOD!

I am still convinced that Jeremiah is really Jerry Falwell.

Please Mr. Falwell, stop posting, we get it, you're a raving lunatic who's missed his meds too many times, too often.

I'd like to know how the lefties on this board that buy into this notion that human beings are 90% responsible for global warming...how are they going to force India and China to conform? That's 3 billion people right there practically.

Or is this simply a USA only thing for you guys?

You'll note that the EU countries that did sign the Kyoto Treaty have all gone over the limits thus far because they are too restrictive and do not factor in reality.

I guess these lefties want us to jump on the sword and just let everyone else continue on their way.

Wyckyd and Aaron,

Terrorism isn't a 1% threat...it is a mathematical certainty that if we don't deal decisively with the Islamo-fascist, terrorist-breeding milliue, then we will one day see a mushroom cloud over New York, or some other major American city.

As for Global Warming - that is a nifty bit of alarming prediction you've got there...but as each and every predicted enviro disaster has thus far come a cropper, I'm highly skeptical that on this one you've managed to get it right - so, I'll be wanting some proof; especially before we engage in the massive and radical change the alarmists sre demanding.

I also note, with great care, that the only stab made so far in answering my demand has been done by Ray - who advises that the mathematical underpinnings of global warming are insoluable calculations.

Come now, you lefties are convinced of this stuff...please don't let me believe that you're advocating massive chance just 'cause someone told you so...you have actually looked in to the hard science and found it explicable, right? You can explain your beliefs in a clear, concise and unscotchable manner, can't you?

According to these same doom and gloomers, 30-40 years ago, we are now supposed to be dying in an ice age!

The same liberal politicians, who are the most vocal about Bush not signing Kyoto and stating he has a dismal record on the environment are also the same ones who VOTED AGAINST IT! Hardly, the global catastrophe you libs claim.

Ash, global warming MAY be happening, but with only 100+ years of global temperature data, can anyone make it a certainty? According to this data, the temperature has only risen 1 DEGREE C!!!

1 DEGREE C in 100 years!!

Hardly a global catastrophe! Scientists has also stated that the sun is burning hotter.

There is no definitive proof that a global catastrophe is in progress, nor the causes of it!!!!

Isn't this guy Erlich the same guy how advocates that it is okay to kill your baby within the first 30 days if things don't work out? No wonder these trolls like him. Its a natural progression from abortion.

Mark,

How am I doin? do I need to improve anywhere?

Jeremiah

Dang, Jeremiah, finally I get it. Wow am I slow!

Gosh if I find out warboy is a plant too, I may be forced to fall on my sword.

Say it ain't so warboy, say it ain't so.

Anybody here shed a tear over poor Ken Lay?

Ash,

What does Ken lay have to do with it?

Wait a minute---if global warming is going to make the ice caps melt and the oceans rise, then Mark's property will be beachfront in just a few years! How do you get from too much water to not enough?

Actually, global warming is really a conservative plot, a new version of a vast right wing conspiracy. We looked at the election map and saw a nice red country bracketed by those ugly blue parantheses and figured if we could just run a few more lawn mowers without catalytic converters, drive a few more SUVs, and exhale more, we could melt the ice caps and flood the coasts, thereby moving the coastlines in to the land we sneakily bought up for little or nothing, and getting rid of the Libs in the process.

We actually recruited Laurie David and Barbra Striesand to fly more in private jets and to air condition their barns, just to move things along.

Please note that all the levees have been mined with explosives, particulary those which will most impact target groups. And I understand that Big Oil, when they can finally drill offshore, is thrilled to find that "offshore" will then mean what is now Teddy Kennedy's front yard.

I just hope we have time, after this all happens, to set up for the mini Ice Age the other scientists say is looming, within the next couple of decades.

Ash, you are so totally predictable. Today when I heard about Ken Lay I said that I expected you to gloat over his death. You Libs being so kind and comPASSionate and tolerant and all.

And please drop the claim you make every time one of your madLib fantasies is challenged, that "a majority" believes it. A "majority" of the wild-eyed left-wing conspiracy-theorist Air-America loonies, perhaps. Yeah, a

Didn't you stomp off in a huff a few months back, swearing/PROMISING not to come back? What ever happened to that? It was the only time I thought you made any sense. Too bad that didn't last any longer than Saint Cindy's latest publicity stunt will.

Almiranta,

LOL :-D

REALLY,REALLY GOOD ONE!!

Jeremiah

Just a few comments about global warming:

The average temperature of the sun has been steadily increasing (a cyclical event), causing an increased emmision of solar energy. Could this be the reason the ice caps on both Earth and Mars have shown some signs of melting? Or are the global warming activists claiming that human are responsible for the increase in the sun's temperature or Mars' melting ice caps?

Yes, it does seem that the average temp has slightly increased in the past 100 years or so. But 100 years is a nano-second in the timeline of earth's existance. The earth has experienced periods of warmer climates and colder climates, all without any influence from man.

Yes, some glaciers have receded. But some glaciers have grown during the same period of time.

The global warming theorists cannot explain the increase in the thickness of the Antartic Ice Pack or Greenland's Ice Pack.

In order to realize a 20 foot increase in the oceans depth, a significant percentage of the Antartic Ice Cap would have to melt (the Artic Ice Cap is floating in the Artic Ocean and would actually lower the ocean's depth as ice displaced more space than water). It will take more than a 1 or 2 degree increase in average temperature to melt the Antartic Ice Cap as the average winter temp is -40 to -94°F and the average summer temp is -5 to -31°F. It would need to increase by at least 37 degrees just to get to the melting point of ice.

Additionally, because of the tilt of the earth's axis, the sun does not shine in Antartica for six months of the year. When it does shine, it has little effect because of the angle of the sun's rays which must pass through a greater thickness of atmosphere.

Bottom line: There may be global warming, but it is unlikely humans have much, if anything, to do with it. It is more than likely to be caused by the solar temperature cycles. The only way the costal regions would floor is if a significant portion of the Antartic Ice Cap melts, and it is slowly getting thicker. And it would take a much larger increase in the average temp to even start a meltdown.

Almiranta,

sorry, I meant the post before your last one there concerning the ice caps melting.

I posted just a tad too late there, my bad.

Those libs they are the clouda-phobes aren't they?
:)

Jeremiah

Jeremiah said: "t's so much relevant as to what the weather is doing as to why the end times is so nigh! Sure God creates weather phenomena to let us know that He is still there and HE will always be there, and sometimes He has to get little rough in terms of the weather to wake people up so to speak and let them know that He is displeased with their OUT OF TOUCH LIFESTYLES!!"

Therein lies the death of logic. Kinda makes you wonder why He gave us brains, doesn't it?

Mark,

What is Ash talking about a "plant"?

Jeremiah

Ricorun quote--"Kinda makes you wonder why He gave us brains, doesn't it?"
__________________________________________________

Ricorun,

So!, Give us your explanation of why there is tornadoes,Hurricanes,typhoons, and such other phenomena?

Why there is a Universe?

Why you have the ability to operate i,e. a computer or lawn mower etc,etc.

Why there is no limit to the sky?

Tell us, how many grains of sand there are in the entire world from start to finish?

Tell us, In your little mind, Why you(man) were created, above all creatures?

Tell us why there is mention of Jesus, and the findings which PROVE his existence?

Don't you realize I could go on forever asking question's about this earth, and not have to go any further questioning when all I have to do is point to the stars!

HA! Atheist's sure have a big surprise coming there way, that BIG BANG THEORY that your big buddy charles darwin there is ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD FOR, is just waiting to happen and God Almighty will provide it at his convenience, of course NO ONE KNOWS when that will be!!

I kow where my explanation is and He sits on a throne far above mankind!

Jeremiah

Do me a favor-

Walk in downtown Atlanta, or any industrial sector, in the summer... and then come to the conclusion that high Carbon dioxide emmissions are good for anyone.

It's pathetic what the air quality in some of these major cities has become. In Athens, where I go to school, I can run a mile with a mild to moderate amount of exhertion; one the flip side, in Sandy Springs, 5-15 miles north of atlanta, I can hardly run three quarters of a mile without becoming seriously short-winded.

On a Christian/religious note:

How do you think God likes people destroying his creation?

Georgia Frawg,

God reveals himself in his creation!

Romans 1:18-20

wrote: between A.D. 56 and 58
huh,huh long,long before our time!

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known by God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

So, I think we need to be more concerned about what destroys not just the body, but what can destroy both SOUL AND BODY in hell!!

It still stands to this day!!

Jeremiah

The scientists worried about the coming, as in Right-Around-The-Corner, Ice Age, attribute it to the changes in solar activity.

The fact is, the Earth has been a lot hotter than it is now. And then it was a lot colder. And then hotter, and then colder. What we are so hysterically referring to as Global Warming is warming only relative to the Little Ice Age we are exiting. It's all relative.

I don't understand the evangelical zeal to have one, big, dramatic reason for everything, when my life experience is that things are usually more complex and diverse than simplistic theories admit to. I admit to the possibility that we may have added somewhat to the warming trend through our increasingly industrial lifestyle. But to claim that is the only cause for a cycle that has been going on for millenia just does not make sense. And to make wild claims of imminent disaster with no evidence to back it up is simply irresponsible. There is a historical pattern of this same group of people to link the unlinkable, connect the unconnectible, relate the unrelateable, and create out of whole cloth elaborate theories that depend on unproven, unprovable, but very dramatic projections.

My life experience also teaches me that when any group chooses a highly emotionally charged approach to anything, depending on demagoguery, dismissive of contrary evidence, accompanied by accusations of stupidity and/or some other evil motivation for simply not buying into it, the basic premise is always suspect. The global warming issue is so imbued with religious fervor, hysterical posturing, hyper-emotional resentment for NOT UNDERSTANDING!!!!! or NOT CARING!!!!, with blind seething rage at those who do not fall into lockstep with the converted, with all the trappings of other movements which also seem to be populated by the exact same people using the exact same tactics (though directed at hatred for Bush or against the war or against corporations or against SUV drivers or for abortion or against religion, etc.) that it is simply hard to take it seriously. If global warming truly is an issue of grave importance, its cause has only been harmed by its adoption by the professional hysterics,and its promotion by the usual tactics. As a group, these people have so little credibility that they tend to trivialize anything they start pontificating about.

Ash, you are so totally predictable. Today when I heard about Ken Lay I said that I expected you to gloat over his death. You Libs being so kind and comPASSionate and tolerant and all.

I simply asked if anyone had shed a tear over him? I gloat not but I do believe in karma and this man got what he deserved. How many lives did he ruin?

Am I any more predictable than you wingnuts? There were several orgasms described on this very blog when Zarkawi was bombed back to his maker. So don't give me any of your predictable crap. As a country we are so polarized (thank you W) that everyone seems to over react.

Numbers? Well delude yourself my man, but 65% of the country thinks we are heading in the wrong direction. What, a 35% approval rating for the president. Like 2% support Cheney. My friend your house of cards is folding faster than a leaky tent in a rainstorm.

Ash, you are so totally predictable. Today when I heard about Ken Lay I said that I expected you to gloat over his death. You Libs being so kind and comPASSionate and tolerant and all.

I simply asked if anyone had shed a tear over him? I gloat not but I do believe in karma and this man got what he deserved. How many lives did he ruin?

Am I any more predictable than you wingnuts? There were several orgasms described on this very blog when Zarkawi was bombed back to his maker. So don't give me any of your predictable crap. As a country we are so polarized (thank you W) that everyone seems to over react.

Numbers? Well delude yourself my man, but 65% of the country thinks we are heading in the wrong direction. What, a 35% approval rating for the president. Like 2% support Cheney. My friend your house of cards is folding faster than a leaky tent in a rainstorm.

Jeremiah,

You're doing fine - and I'm not entirely sure in what context Ash is using "plant", but as it is directed at warrior, it probably isn't meant in a flattering manner.

Ash,

For all anyone knows, Ken Lay figured it out before he died and he is now living in far greater glory than our poor imaginations can conceive...he also might not have figured it out, and thus things might not be going so well for him...but his heart attack was no more deserved than any other death is deserved, and no less, either.

We all have to die, Ash; how we die is immaterial compared to what sort of people we are deep down iside...you don't know, and can't know, what sort of person Lay was...and it is rather cruel of you to gloat over his death like that.

...and still no attemnpts at actually explaining how global warming is happening...what is the matter, lefties, are you incapable of explaining your beliefs?

One begins to doubt you've given the matter any thought at all...

One begins to doubt you've given the matter any thought at all...

"Begins?" I've doubted it all along, Mark.

I realize this thread is probably dead, but I'm going to say this anyway. The premise of Mark's post was to ask how global warming is happening. I came along several hours later and asked, assuming it is happening and man is causing it, what do you propose to do about it besides raising CAFE standards.

Not one single person even took a stab at it. You people (maf, winnowhead, ash, wade, et al) are beyond pathetic. Almiranta just absolutely nailed all of you mental midgets in the last paragraph of her 1:30 post.

I think that the scientist are trying to hiijack the Almighty!!

In actuality there is NO such thing as "Global warming"!

I tell you one thing these so called "climatologist" or in other words ALARMISTS, have got a lot to answer for!

Just think of it this way i,e. the other day when the new space shuttle took off, well, if you go up there where they are at, just take a look at the earth and stay in suspended animation there for a few days and watch the earh turning it never moves and it never changes it's position in relation to the other planets!

so it follows: As long as the earth is not moving out of orbit then there is nothing for us to worry about!!

Just like the song says: remember it!!!....

He's got the whole wide world in His hands!!

Jeremiah

Darwin and the "Big Bang?"
That's kind of a stretch (read: tell me, please, that you never passed a science or history class in a public university), but then when people start assigning supernatural explanations to natural phenomena -- you can dismiss their arguments out-of-hand.

"........when people start assigning supernatural explanations to natural phenomena -- you can dismiss their arguments out-of-hand."

Just leave Art Bell out of this, OK? The man is a visionary genius. His work on the alien implants under human skin that move away from scalpels to prevent their removal is AWESOME!!!And the significance of always seeing the number 111 everywhere you go----groundbreaking stuff.

Salvelinus

"the fool hath said in heart there is no God"

So!, I think I'll let God take care of the debate between Him and Darwin!!

Jeremiah

you don't know, and can't know, what sort of person Lay was..

True, but I can see what he did and condemn that.

.but his heart attack was no more deserved than any other death is deserved, and no less, either.

Without research, I can't say for certain you did an orgasmic dance over the massacre of Zarqawi. But I now several of your neocon posters did. Shall I assume you condemn their gloating as well?

and still no attemnpts at actually explaining how global warming is happening...what is the matter, lefties, are you incapable of explaining your beliefs?

Go see An Inconvinient Truth of check the book out of the library. All you questions will be answered Mark

Ash,

Just how in the heck did you ever get caught up in the lies of Gore?