Obama for the time being is my Senator, however unless he switches sides on the isle, he won't be after '08.

Mark, name me on iota of morality that is dependent on any religion...

-It is all or nothing with morality
are you kidding me? This is the real world Mark, things happen....would you say Chaney ordering the shooting down of Flight 93 on 9-11, thus killing every innocent passengers was immoral?

There is, as it were, no way to amend or repeal the Ten Commandments
-I don't think typing you blog is really keeping the Sabbath holy, do you Mark?
-aren't the 7th and 8th commandment covered by the 10th? Do you think God would be that redundant?

-you've heard all the arguments Mark, and you know if God truly wrote the Commandments they wouldn't be open to interpretation....but there you are, three gods and a graven image....

-people who are not that interested in God or morality, but are convinced of the need for liberty and for everyone to rely upon themselves.

Your right Mark, who would ever think a country based on Liberty and self reliance could ever be successful? What system of Government in the world was founded on those kinds of crazy, immoral ideals?

-to provide monetary aid for the poor without a healthy dose of that old Christian morality seems to us an entire waste of time and money...

That's so nice of you Mark, "I'll help you, but only if you convert and believe what I believe" Good thing there are no poor Buddhists..

Face it Mark, it all comes back to the insecurities of Christians...you all can only feel important if you're part of a group...a heard if you will, your weak willed, hypocritical when it comes to morality and the bible and for some reason the only religion that actively recruits...If Christ is so great why must you advertise? the product should sell itself. Please Mark, I love this country, leave it alone, keep your spirituality where it belongs...inside of YOU...if you must share, do it while following the 4th Commandment, Friday Night and Saturday services....Sunday worship is for pagans.

As for Obama, he's done in Illinois politics...

Sadly Opus you are missing the point. That you believe morality to be relative is a very dangerous thing. I hope that Obama continues his move to the right, and that the rest of the voters of Illinois follow that and reward him if he does so.

kjstrouble

if moratliy isn't relative, then what do you say about shooting down Flight 93?

More evidence the Dems are fiercely divided, on both religion and the war on terror. I think Screamin' Dean and Obama are starting a little late in their efforts to grab the evangalists' vote.

If Obama ever wants to live in the WH, I suggest he change his name. It sounds too much like Osama.

Opus: You make it sound as if Cheney didn't have a difficult and agonizing decision to make. What would you have done? Two planes just hit the WWT and one hit the Pentagon. Flight 93 has turned around and is now heading toward DC. Here are your two choices: Shoot down Flight 93 and lose innocent lives on board, or allow the plane to continue on its path and potentially lose thousands.

What about flying pigs? The HERO's of Flight 93 sacrificed themselves. Don't diminish their memory with you insane dribble.

all I'm pointing out is Mark's statement 'It is all or nothing with morality' was wrong, and so far the only defense given is that what I've pointed out is dribble?

Kim4B, when did I say it wasn't a difficult decision, of course it was...when did I was it was the wrong decision, of course it was right....so what point are you trying to make?

Kahn,
When did I say anything about the HERO's of Flight 93? I was talking of the decision on the ground...stop wrapping yourself in a self righteous flag to try to make anyone who doesn't agree with you look unpatriotic...it demeans all of us who love this country

I see Opie has Christophpbia too. Does anyone else know why the left has such a seething hatred for those who have faith? I should correct that, those who are of the Christian faith, we know they love the Islamofascists.

CJ,

so one more who just ignores the issue and resorts to name calling...

Moral absolutes CJ, yea or nea? Or are you just jumping on this board to try to make yourself feel good by calling me a lover of Islamofascists?

That's just a given. I'm not at all religious but I don't understand your irrational rage against those who are?

you're still avoiding the issue, why are you even posting?

Actually, Mark, your desire to link charity for the poor with indoctrination into your religion is the antithesis of Christ's teaching. He taught us to help those around us without judgement and out of the gladness and singleness of our hearts.

Opus,

I find it interesting that you are already consigning Obama to my side of the aisle - no attempt apparantly being made to understand what Obama is saying. As I said, he's extraordinarily intelligent and he's got a lot to say...I guess I'm more content because my belief - and seemingly Obama's - is that Obama and I will one day be together in complete understanding.

All morality is dependent upon religion because if it isn't, then its just something that some one made up and thus can be changed to suit anyone else. In other words, my right to life is from God and that means you can't take it away without at least some due process of law...but if there is no God, then my right to life is just an impertinence on my part and you may do away with me whenever it is expedient for you to do so. On and on it goes on all matters of universal morality - that we are not supposed to kill, steal, lie, etc is something either from God - and thus immutable - or it is just an imposition of some old busybody and we can all craft whatever code we wish to live by.

Had Cheney ordered the shoot-down of 93, then it would have been a bad thing...but less bad than having the plane slam in to a building, which would not only kill the people on board, but also the people on the ground. The moral choice is always to save as many innocent lives as possible.

I keep the Sabbath holy - but that, for me, is on Sunday. The blog, of course, is non-denominational, so it is ok for it to have posts 7 days a week. Be that as it may, the 7th is a command not to steal, the 8th a command not to lie, while the 10th is a command not to be greedy - doesn't seem all that redundant to me. You should think a moment about the Commandments...if everyone followed them, what sort of world would we have - better, or worse, than now?

You should also think a bit about what I'm saying - you ask (demand, really) that I help the poor. No problem: I'm a Christian...your demand is redundant because God has commanded me to help the poor. But I'm a Christian. Have you got that? I can't just do part of my faith - sorry, but I have to do it all...so, if I and my fellow Christians set up a soup kitchen, and even if part of the money for it is in the form of a government grant (provided, of course, out of tax dollars the majority of which are paid by Christians), then I am going to want to have a prayer of thanksgiving before we eat...and I'm going to invite the assembled poor to a service where I will try to show them the glorious life which awaits them once they become Christians. I don't see where you would have a problem with that...but, you do.

Steve,

He also commanded us to spread the Good News throughout the world...Christian charity comes with Christianity.

I've been posting here since December 2003, who the hell are you? Other than a far left wing fanatical kook? Why are you posting your Christophobia?

Mark you arrogance is overwhelming,

-that we are not supposed to kill, steal, lie, etc,etc is something either from God - and thus immutable - or it is just an imposition of some old busybody
Your kidding right? From God or a busybody, what about natural law? You think mankind had no sense of morality at all until Jesus came along? Has there been a slew of killing stealing by Buddhists and Hindus? Why must you keep insisting that your way is the only way?

The moral choice is always to save as many innocent lives as possible.
-So you in favor of stem cell research then...right? You disagree with those who say it is never justified to destroy one life in order to possibly save another...right?

Hey look at that, your Bible list the Commandments one way, mine lists it another...oh what oh what to believe...Boy I sure wish there was one set of rules and standards which was consistent
7th-adultery
8th-stealing
10th-coveting

How would I commit adultery or steal without already breaking the 10th commandment? Doesn't the 10th cover the other two? Perfect God...Not so much the book though, and you base your life on that????

I keep the Sabbath holy - but that, for me, is on Sunday
-I'm sorry, where exactly in the Bible does it say God rested on the first day, thus making the Sabbath on Sunday? Are you just making that one up for convenience?

when did I demand you help the poor? Just making it up as you go along? but again, how could you let a starving Buddhist die? That's moral?

How do you do it Mark? Live a lie, but continue to try to convince yourself by trying to convince others? Hey live your life anyway you want, but leave everyone else alone....I know you can't...because then you'd really have nothing to do, but at least try....

Still avoiding the issue CJ? but still the name calling....since '03 huh? good for you, you must be very proud, I know I'm proud of you...good job!

Were you trying to make a point or just practicing typing...fyi, on the typing, you're doing a hell of a job...keep it up!

Actually Opus, all of Europe has Monday (and most of the rest of the world for that matter) as the first day of the week.

So I guess not only as someone who seems to hate Christians who actually encourage people to look at Christianity, you're also xenophobic OR ignorant about the views of the rest of the world.

there is some very interesting stuff re his backgound that is worth checking out..one is at expreacherman.wordpress.com
and it is another thread on LGF taking you to something called truthobama or something like that..don't have the time to look it up right now...

sorry it was not LGF but on captainsquartersblog. it's macmind.blogspot.com
scary.....

Hi Mark, Opus,

Protestants and Catholics number the 10 Commandments differently, but what is interesting is that they are not numbered in the Bible :). The Commandments are first listed in Exodus Ch 20.

The fact that Protestants and Catholics list the commandments differently reflects differences in emphasis, but you can always clear things up by going to the source. Also, the Bible wasn't originally split up in Chapters and Verses - that was done by the Catholic Church for easy referencing. For example, Chapter 11 of Revelations flowed right into Ch 12 (since there were no chapters), and when read this way you can make some fascinating observations.

Opus, in many European calendars the week starts on Monday and ends on Sunday. Not saying you're wrong, but who knows at the beginning of time what the actual first day was?

Obama for the time being is my Senator, however unless he switches sides on the isle, he won't be after '08

A little curious what you meant by this statement (I live in Illinois too, btw). Do you mean that Democrats won't accept him if he shows that he is a man of faith? That he'll be running for president? Or that you won't accept a man of faith as your senator?

I know many good atheists, and many people of faith out there. You can be a good public servant as either.

-Lee

Opus,

ROFL - what is natural law other than the law that God writes on the heart of every person? If you believe that someone is doing wrong, then you must be referring to an agreed standard...now, did you make up this standard? No. Ok, are you adhering to a standard that someone else made up? No. Good - now we're getting somewhere...if its not a standard you or someone else made up, then whose standard is it?

You are just fanatic in your determination not to see - ah, well: I shall pray for you. In the by and by, we hope your faith will be restored to you.

Lee,

Be that as it may, there are ten of them and they are irrefutable...

Meanwhile, it does seem that our good Opus will not accept a believing Christian as his Senator...even a believing Christian who adheres to many liberal political positions...very odd; wonder where he picked up the Christophobia, as CJ puts it...

Hi Mark,

Indeed there are 10 Commandments. And, being Catholic, I agree with you on their numbering. But if you were curious why Opus was seeing them differently, it's because he numbered them different.

To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing.

I found this part of Obama's speech interesting. I agree with him on several points, such as not necessarily implementing all Biblical law into our legal code. Outlaw murder, yes, and that is based on Biblical precepts. I also believe homosexual sex to be wrong - that's a religious belief of mine, but I wouldn't implement the 3000-year old Jewish penalties found in Leviticus Ch 20 for sexual sin - it basically said homosexuality = death, adultery = death, beastiality = death. I have actually argued with Fundamentalists who would implement these penalties.

For those interested, I believe Jesus' forgiving of those who broke the Old Testament "capital sins" over-shadows Leviticus (from John Ch 8).

However, I believe abortion should be outlawed, since it is (in my belief) the killing of a human being, and all killing of human beings degrades everyone's right to life. The right to life is guaranteed by God, and human law does not negate it. Hopefully Senator Obama changes his mind on this. He's clearly struggling with it, as you can see from his speech.

Anyway, Mark, I think we agree :) I don't doubt Obama's deep faith, and I think he may change his mind on a few points. I definitely don't condemn the man. I disagree with Rudy Giuliani and many Republicans on the same issues I disagree with Obama on.

-Lee

The problem with Obama's speech, in my opinion, has nothing to do with whether he's correct or not. He is - but he makes the false assumption that "secularists" don't want religion discussed in the public sphere, or are against voluntary prayer groups, etc.

Those are ridiculous stereotypes of liberals, promoted by a GOP campaign to make Christians feel threatened. We vehemently believe in and will defend religious freedom - we just don't want to see the state promoting religion or giving preference to one over the other.

It's a very simple distinction that religious conservatives also use to hold.

...however unless he switches sides on the isle, he won't be after '08.

Opus, I didn't realise Illinois was an island. It's "aisle," not isle.

Really, dude, your whole post is riddled with errors. You need to learn to write like an adult.

Are you sure you're not Barney? You are Barney, aren't you? You've changed your name to avoid Bush's illegal warrantless eavesdropping wiretap domestic surveillance program.

Too late, Barn; he already knows where you are. You'd better head up to Canucksville while you still have the chance...

Xango Annie,

What is really scary is that the ghost of George Wallace appears to be channeling through the words of Preacher Jack. (Words from a retired preacher)
Preacher Jack cites Obama's membership in the Trinity United Church of Christ as a reason that Obama is dangerous to this country. Go to the TUCC site for yourself. Read their commitments. You will find nothing offensive to the mainstream Christian, except an emphasis on their African heritage. And as far as I know pride in your ethnicity is neither dangerous nor illegal. (Unless you consider the KKK an ethnicity)

I am pleased the right wing is starting to swift boat Obama. It means they are worried about him as a serious challenger to the throne.

keebler,

How's the patoozle? A little sore after sitting in the toll booth all day? Pilfer any quarters? Happy 4th!

First, I want to state that I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Obama's first paragraph as quoted by Mark. It's about time that someone said it.

However, I find it absolutely hysterical that Senator Barack Obama-the Democrats'golden boy and rising star-is being torpedoed by his own party for having the temerity to say, "secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square.[..] Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition." Now, suddenly Democrats are turning their knives on Senator Obama for his faith, like they turned their knives on Lieberman for his support of the war. Sad.

I agree. The most useful thing about this post to me is the news of Obama's treatment at the hands of the liberal press. Their hysterical, dare I say even kneejerk, attacks betray a level of fear and ideological rigidity that genuinely suprised me.

Mark, I admire your plain talk about your beliefs, and I admire your will to share the word of Christ, but might I respectfully say that your treatment of the subject of charity is a tad harsh. Referring to your quote,

"to provide monetary aid for the poor without a healthy dose of that old Christian morality seems to us an entire waste of time and money..."

Can you honestly hear Christ telling us that ANY act of charity is ENTIRELY a waste of time? I don't know if you really meant that sentence the way it came out, but can you see how your wording could cause the unbelievers among us to be just that much more resistant? Just my $.02.

I think you are right Nate. If more Christians acted as true Christians, I think the country would be a far better place. That old, trite, WWJD might be a good thing for Christians and non Christians alike to ask themselves.

God blesses the world.

Hey guys,

It's more than a tad disingenuous to portray an entire votig bloc as disaproving of Obama, by three or four people writing blogs, questioning his intent.

After all these years, i'm sure you know how to deal with malcontents.

Feingold/Obama '08

Support for Senator Obama's stance- "...secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square."-from the Founding Fathers of the United States of America:

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–[John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
[Letters to his son. p. 61]

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Thomas Jefferson:
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (-excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

James Madison:
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Source: Founding Fathers Quotes

"...both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate
for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity."-official Library of Congress statement

Nate,

What I'm trying to get across is that, for a Chritsian, bearing witness to the faith is the most important thing to do.

The people I see every day are immortal, just like me - they are built to live forever, and the ultimate thing we are doing here on earth is choosing where we will spend it. What matters if you were hungry on earth when with the promise of the life to come, you'll not only not be hungry, but be entirely satisfied at all times?

Of course, for a non-Christian, that would all be considered nonsense...and that is fine and dandy. We hold that God wants people who will freely choose to love Him...if one freely chooses not to, then so be it. But for us it still holds true...and thus to ask us to act upon that part of our faith which commands us to feed the poor while also demanding that we don't preach the life of the world to come...well, that is a waste of time.

TEO,

We shall see - what is amazing, however, is that anyone could be angered by what Obama said.

winnow,

And all we want is the First Amendment strictly enforced...and in that, there is no wall of separation of Church and State...indeed, "separation of Church and State" appears nowhere in the US Constitution.

We want it that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Of course, our reading of that means that you can say a prayer at a high school graduation, just like they do when the open the House and Senate for business each morning.

Mark,

There is a wall of separation between church and state. If you think the US is a Christian theocracy, then - putting aside the obvious example of an Islamic state in the Middle East - then I just ask you to read what Jefferson, Franklin, or Tom Paine thought (remember him, the liberal you quoted yesterday?)

You said:

We want it that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

In agreement there.

Of course, our reading of that means that you can say a prayer at a high school graduation, just like they do when the open the House and Senate for business each morning.

Umm, not arguing there either.

Do you think that is what your strawman "liberal" concerns himself with?

Or that your version of the "culture war" is about saying a prayer?

I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you are truly clueless.

"...then I just ask you to read what Jefferson, Franklin, or Tom Paine thought (remember him, the liberal you quoted yesterday?)"-by: winnowhead

Take your own advice. I've already quoted Franklin and Jefferson above. Here's one from Thomas Paine:

“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”

Over the last 40 years, liberals have pushed and pushed to place all of the emphasis on the first part of this 1st Amendment clause-

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

-while ignoring the second part of the clause,

"...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In this way, liberals have endeavored to completely remove religion from the public square. That's un-Constitutional.

Um, Paine was a deist. Put your brain in the mindset of someone coming out of the enlightenment.

"...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I, or your "liberal" stereotype, do no in the slightest want to prohibit the free exercise of religion. If you think that, then say it directly to me (or any specific person) - it will be more real then the fantasy of the religion hating liberal you knock on in the confines of your head.

Speak any religion as much as your want in the "public square." Just don't try to LEGISLATE YOUR RELIGION. You are intelligent enough to understand the difference, aren't you?

Um, Paine was a deist. Put your brain in the mindset of someone coming out of the enlightenment. It will be more coherent.

"...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I, or your "liberal" stereotype, do not in the slightest want to prohibit the free exercise of religion. If you think that, then say it directly to me (or any specific person) - it will be more real then the fantasy of the religion hating liberal you knock on in the confines of your head.

Speak any religion as much as your want in the "public square." Just don't try to LEGISLATE YOUR RELIGION. You are intelligent enough to understand the difference, aren't you?

Um, Paine was a deist. Put your brain in the mindset of someone coming out of the enlightenment. It will be more coherent.

"...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I, or your "liberal" stereotype, do not in the slightest want to prohibit the free exercise of religion. If you think that, then say it directly to me (or any specific person) - it will be more real then the fantasy of the religion hating liberal you knock on in the confines of your head.

Speak any religion as much as your want in the "public square." Just don't try to LEGISLATE YOUR RELIGION. You are intelligent enough to understand the difference, aren't you?

Will,
hey thanks for the lesson...your point will always come across better when you throw out assumptions and then resort to name calling...I realize you are one of those 'hate America first' types, but can we at least, for now, accept that we are using the calendar used in this country and by the majority of this hemisphere, and Africa? that being said the Sabbath is on SATURDAY...don't throw out the Friday night sundown to Saturday Sundown...I am aware, I was trying to save space....lot of good that did.

Lee,
not sure what part of the State you're in, but the talk up here has nothing to do with Obama's faith or adherence to it, it's his pandering to the right instead of focusing on the masses who never vote,

Mark,
-what is natural law other than the law that God writes on the heart of every person?
OK, I'll give you that...but then why do I need it written down and repeated once a week? If God has instilled me with a sense of right and wrong more could I get from an organized religion?

-That's real nice that you seem to think charity w/out a lecture is a waste of time, if there is a Hell Mark, I think beliefs like that will get you there...I'd reevaluate if I were you...

-Opus will not accept a believing Christian as his Senator.
I said that...when??? still making it all up Mark?

"dude" keef lay off the pipe...one error is riddled huh? I'd stop calling people 'dude' before trying to look more adult then anyone...

OPUS = POSSESSED!!

Winnowhead-"Speak any religion as much as your want in the 'public square.'"

Terrific! Also, here's another quote from Thomas Paine:

Thomas Paine
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” [“The Existence of God--1810”]

Winnowhead-" Just don't try to LEGISLATE YOUR RELIGION."

You mean like the Founding Fathers' inscribing a Biblical verse on the Liberty Bell?

Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

Let's see what the Founding Fathers did. Statement from the Library of Congress:
Religion and the Founding of the American Republic

IV. Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89:

"The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."

Inscribing text into a bell is quite different then legislating religion. And by legislating religion, you know I'm talking about more than symbols, such as putting the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse.

And of course you can find many examples of strong christian influence in government, and our symbols, in the early years of this country. But the line is still weak, as what you're talking about is symbolic, not action oriented. We were not a diverse country at that point.

I'm not quite sure what you think the proper role of the government with respect to religion is. Care to elaborate, without falling back on the token controversies like the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge?

"Inscribing text into a bell is quite different then legislating religion. And by legislating religion, you know I'm talking about more than symbols, such as putting the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse."-Posted by: winnowhead

Good grief. Read my first post up above-the one that has quote after quote of the Founding Fathers stating that America must adhere to the Ten Commandments. I just can't take you seriously, Winnowhead.

"Inscribing text into a bell is quite different then legislating religion. And by legislating religion, you know I'm talking about more than symbols, such as putting the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse."-Posted by: winnowhead

Good grief. Read my first post up above-the one that has quote after quote of the Founding Fathers stating that America must adhere to the Ten Commandments. I just can't take you seriously, Winnowhead.

Winnow,

Then why is the ACLU bringing suits to prevent the saying of a prayer at graduation? Why is a suit working its way through the courts about "under God" in our Pledge?

It is because the left believes there is a wall of separation - but, there isn't. What we've got is the prohibition on government intereference with religion...but that is a one way street, just as the government cannot interfere with my private life, yet I can still interfere with government is as much as a constitutional majority allows.

Winnowhead-" Just don't try to LEGISLATE YOUR RELIGION."

One more thing, Winnowhead, on "legislating your religion": Our Founding Fathers legislated that America's government be divided into three branches based on a Christian Biblical verse! That's hardly "symbolic". On the contrary, this Bible-based separation of government powers is one of the keys to the 229 year success of the United States of America!

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Freedom1,

You don't have to be religious to live by the 10 commandments. Tell me how you think the 10 commandments should be legislated.

Religious or not, if you believe that "thou shall not steal," then pass a law making theft illegal. Your personal basis for passing the law is different then the official act of doing so.

The issue is not one of values, but of promoting one religion over another.

Then why is the ACLU bringing suits to prevent the saying of a prayer at graduation? Why is a suit working its way through the courts about "under God" in our Pledge?

If a student wants to say a prayer, fine. The difference is if the prayer is compelled by the state. You know this.

Opus,

Why do I need to hear about it once a week? Well, actually, I hear about it every day...nearly ever day I begin my days on my knees, thanking God for a good night's sleep and for one more day to try and walk the path he has laid out for me. Then, as I can manage it, I try to give at least a few minutes at other times in the day to prayer, as well as try to do a bit of reading from the Bible (I tend to select semi-random, because I really like the Psalms). The once a week thing is where I join with the rest of my Christian community - in that, I sing the praises of God in unison with my fellow Christians, hear a sermon on some particular point from the Priest and, as I'm Catholic, I partake of the Body of Christ as commanded to by our Lord.

It all makes for quite a lot of God in my life - but not nearly as much as I want and need. It is extraordinarily hard to explain to someone who doesn't believe as I do just why I do it...but I'm usually very happy, and on those moments when I find myself unhappy, I can usually discover the error on my part which has taken me more out of tune with God than usual. Its not enough because I understand that I am a created being - contingent. This life I have and used to think of as my own is actually a bit of life lent to me by God, and that I have been purchased at a price.

Additionally, there is the need for constant help and support - constant help and support you only realise you need when you are a believer.

Try this exercise and it will give you a conception of why I seek for help:

Have you ever tried to go a whole week without a lie? How about a day? I'm talking no lies at all - absolutely nothing but the unvarnished truth issuing from your mouth for a 24 hour period? Then add trying to be completely respectful of all people you come across. Add trying to love your enemies and pray for them. Add trying to be completely patient and giving with all who ask you for any aid whatsoever...

It gets tricky...but one those days when you get it 10% right, it is just such a wonderful feeling, and all you want is more and more of it...so, you'll try it again the next day, hoping against hope - and praying mightily - that you'll be able to get it 11% right one of these days.

Winnowhead, either you didn't read any of my posts directly quoting the Founding Fathers on religion or you're just too stubborn to understand the Founding Fathers. Tag, Mark, you're up!:)

"You don't have to be religious to live by the 10 commandments."-Winnowhead

Explain to me how a non-religious person can uphold the First Commandment???

winnow,

Where in the Constitution does it say that an employee of a public school cannot pray in front of the assembled students and faculty? Where does it say the valedictorian can't?

Just where in, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof", is there a requirement that the cross on Mt Soledad in San Deigo be removed, even after the people of San Diego voted to transfer the property a private owner?

Freedom,

Well, you know they want the Founders to be a group of athiests and diests...makes it easier for them; less thinking involved...when you've been force-fed an anti-religious bigotry, its simply better to not know the truth.

Freedom1,

That's a cheap way to debate - don't bother to refute what I say.

What the "founding fathers" personally believed from a religious standpoint is not relevant. A human can act in two institutions - the church and the government - at the same time.

Explain to me how a non-religious person can uphold the First Commandment???

Oh c'mon, I was making a point on values - that they can come from multiple sources, and that acting on values at the government level is perfectly fine. Just don't pass a law making it illegal to worship a God other than the Christian one, or give official sanction to the words by putting them in schoolrooms with children from diverse backgrounds.

"If a student wants to say a prayer, fine. The difference is if the prayer is compelled by the state. You know this."
__________________________________________________

No, the difference is, You want to lesislate your own sinful morality, all so you can get by with even more of your sinful acts!

You don't want to give God thanks for anything!

Listen, if it was not for God in the hearts of the few in society who try to live a clean decent life, there would be no unity or peace for that matter, to simply govern a country correctly because satan has control when there is no foundation to place your trust in!

Because in effect if God is not there then there is pandamonia, total chaos, I know! you don't believe me, but just wait and see if and when your democratic communist buddies take over, just watch America further progress into a vile pit of complete filth!!

It's the atheist who hate Him, and believe me they are making a grievous mistake by going against God!!

Because God WILL NOT put up their foolishness!!

Jeremiah

Mark,

Where in the Constitution does it say that an employee of a public school cannot pray in front of the assembled students and faculty? Where does it say the valedictorian can't?

Just where in, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof", is there a requirement that the cross on Mt Soledad in San Deigo be removed, even after the people of San Diego voted to transfer the property a private owner?

Want to play the rhetorical game, huh? Where in the constitution does it say stem cells may not be researched? The Mt Soledad issue is complicated and full of technicalities. Certainly the city should be able to sell to a private group who would maintain the monument.

Jeremiah,

You don't know the slightest about my spiritual life.

Despite your demagoguery towards me, if you read between the lines you would see that I want to protect your right to worship, and the rights of everyone else who worships differently than you.

That the distinction you people don't get - you're so quick to act like you're oppressed because you can't use the government to promote your religion, but you would fight tooth and nail if a Muslim tried to do so.

Jeremiah,

You don't know the slightest about my spiritual life.

Despite your demagoguery towards me, if you read between the lines you would see that I want to protect your right to worship, and the rights of everyone else who worships differently than you.

That the distinction you people don't get - you're so quick to act like you're oppressed because you can't use the government to promote your religion, but you would fight tooth and nail if a Muslim tried to do so.

winnow,

What is it with you?

You don't want God in anything!!

It's not our place to mess with human life, it's the Almighty creators!

You want to go with anything goes type thing don't you! well let me tell you, when the Lord sees it's time to take charge you bettered hope you've got your heart right with Him!

Because he's going to shake this earth, and when He wants to shake it, HE WILL SHAKE IT!

And for people to try and refute His divine plan they are living on dangerous grounds!

It's no secret winnow, You just get your head in the bible and you'll see!

All these puny idealistic plans of man don't even compare to the CREATOR'S MIGHTY HAND!!

After all, He created man, so how do you think man came up with all this ingenious contraptions that the medical force and other high tech modern day knowledge?

Man was given the gift of knowledge and for us as mortal human beings to thwart that which was given us by ABOVE is not the brightest thing to do!!!!

Jeremiah

Jeremiah,

I can't tell if you're serious.

I see God everywhere, in every living thing, in the stars, rocks, the Earth.

A government is only an institution, and I want a government that protects my right to believe what I wish.

Mark,

YES!, you hit it on the head and I know you will come around...

Go a day without telling a lie....and fear the guilt that builds up when you do, and the guilt you feel towards those you've lied to, that is your damnation, it's real, it's immediate and you'll never want to lie again...morality has been found and you pass it on...whether this came from God or not, an arbitrary authority figure was not needed...goes the same for all aspects of morality...

If you need a support group that's fine, the problem is you tend to think everyone else needs Your support group and you feel you have a duty and an obligation to continually impose this need on everyone else....

Someday you'll realize You are God's greatest creation and that in the end you only need to answer to one person...Yourself….when you realize this everything else will fall in place and you enjoy a life of endless, guilt free happiness..till this happens, leave those of us who have found this alone, stay out of my schools, my neighborhood and my government...if you must rely on religion, remember that it is only appropriate in three places...your home, your church and your heart....everything else is off limits

Jeremiah,

so the computer's working again in the home?

Remember, make sure you're supervised and stay on the meds, I told you, we can get throught this, belive in yourself and you'll be ok....

"EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD"

"so the computer's working again in the home?

Remember, make sure you're supervised and stay on the meds, I told you, we can get throught this, belive in yourself and you'll be ok...."
__________________________________________________

Opus,

I could be sitting here tomorrow not knowing that this computer could go out!!

But the lord my God, He's alway's their all I have to do is call on His name and He's right there!

Faith is not in things I see, But in things I cannot see!! got it!!

Faith in God!!

Jeremiah

"A government is only an institution, and I want a government that protects my right to believe what I wish."
__________________________________________________

winnow,

Well you are sure doing a good job at that!! by protesting for them to let God be taken out of public places, pitiful!!!

Jeremiah

Opus,

Hmmm, too bad...and after all these thousands of years, still the ready stand-by works...you wish to be as God.

Sorry, Opus, but unless you are telling me that you are the perfect person, then you go through your day like the rest of us - sinning constantly. And if you haven't been trying not to sin, then you don't even realise how often you do.

Now, perhaps you are the perfect person...if you are, then congratulations and be grateful that God has blessed you thusly...but, the rest of us are just as all people are, and we need all the help we can get.

winnow,

That is a, well, cowardly dodge on your part...please try again.

"stay out of my schools, my neighborhood and my government...if you must rely on religion, remember that it is only appropriate in three places...your home, your church and your heart....everything else is off limits"
__________________________________________________

Opus,

This is America, the right to do as I please, and if you don't like it, then LEAVE!!, you low-life coward!!

Stay away from my rights you demon possessed man, you are sick!!

When you leave don't come back, YOU HEAR ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeremiah.

Mark,

I've made my point pretty clearly. You know what I think, I know what you think. An organized prayer at a state funded ceremony infringes on the right of the minority. We can go in circles on the point over and over, but I'm happy enough with the fact that the courts have consistently held that such prayers are not constitutional. If you lived in a majority Muslim community, you would have an issue with a public school shoving a prayer down you or your children's throats.

I just don't understand why you find it so necessary for the government prop your religion up. Or quote the ACLU as the devil's spawn, but ignore everything they do to protect religious freedom.

.. and I don't understand how you can not acknowledge that protecting religious freedom means keeping the government out of the religion business.

Mark,

What does being perfect have to do with anything? What is a perfect person? You think through repetitive chants you can gain perfection? You and I both want the same, to have a blissful life, only difference is you got caught up thinking to attain this you need the approval of a non-existent authority figure to make up for a lack of self worth, geeze Mark, you're not as bad as you think you are...are you?
Try living for the now Mark, not the later, you don't know what it is...how do I know this, because I don't know what it is, and you don't have supper powers that let you know....Live Mark, stop waiting to die....so much to learn and experience, but you’ve boxed yourself into a corner…it’s not too late to come out of the corner Mark....

Jeremiah
Now what did I say...meds Jeremiah, remember to keep taking them, they'll help with the many...many...many voices in your head...I worry about you hurting yourself and others....

Mark, Freedom1,

Let's pray real hard for opus!!!

He's lost it!!

He's got an evil spirit I can just see the demons in every word he writes!!

He has lost touch with reality!!

Let's pray very hard for him!!

Opus,

You shall be found - you're seeking, and you shall find, as is promised.

"Live Mark, stop waiting to die....so much to learn and experience, but you’ve boxed yourself into a corner…it’s not too late to come out of the corner Mark...."
__________________________________________________

Opus,

He is alive opus!! alive in christ!!

Mark does'nt have to come out of the corner, because he's not in a corner ok!, because the church is moving forward, and when this great nation comes under the great revival of the Holy spirit, it's going to be a force to be reckoned with and I as well as Mark, and Freedom1 are all going to be a part of this great movement of the church, so all I can say is.......

God help you who stand in the way!!!!

Jeremiah

winnow,

No, in a majority Moslem country I fully expect that the kids will start their day at school with a Moslem prayer...and given that at least 70% of Americans are Christian of some sort, I see no problem with the kiddies starting the day here with a Christian prayer...moreso in those areas which are closer to 90 or 95% Christian. I trust the local governments and school boards to be cognizant of the beliefs and desires of their people and I know that the Constitution says that the government cannot mess with the free exercise of religion, even if it is on public property.

It isn't a matter of propping up my religion - I don't want my government, mostly paid for by myself and my fellow Christians, to be propping up the absurd secular humanist religion that the left adheres to. Let it alone, and things will be fine...there is no need for you to war on religion...if what we do as Christians is silliness addressed to an empty sky, then no possible harm can come of it, even to the most stern atheist.

Mellow out, relax...be a bit tolerant of diversity, for crying out loud.

Jeremiah,

Peace! Opus is ok...he doesn't understand that you and I aren't waiting to die, but have discovered what life actually is. I think he'll figure it out eventually.

Mark,

I just like to stand up for you, because brothers in christ should look out for one another.

It's really hard to hold back when he goes to talking stuff about where and what to do with my religion, you know what I mean? he thinks he can just tell people who trust in God, who are good christian people what to do and could care less about them, shove them in a corner or something.
I think God set a provision for mankind to be as soldiers for His kingdom and if we don't stand up and do what's right before the sight of Almighty God, and we don't put Him first in our lives then we can expect to be shoved in a corner!! But His word is the vine it's the life line!!

Believe in Him, then we need to serve Him!!

We are vessels for christ!!

You know, like you just told opus, he is seeking, I hope he is searching, well that's what God would have us as christian's do as we are young we are to search Him out, so that we may more truly proclaim His existence!

If we put forth an effort to seek God then He will go before us and show us the different strengths and weaknesses that we have, here is a passage I like so much in the bible.

wrote by David: Acts 2

"'I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body will also live in hope, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy one see decay. You have made know to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.'

Man what a message!!

The kind of message opus needs to hear!

Truly God hath bestowed upon His people peace that surpasses all understanding!!

So, let's stand tall and in the gap for one another so's that the devil will not have room for a foothold!!

Jeremiah

Mark,

No, in a majority Moslem country I fully expect that the kids will start their day at school with a Moslem prayer...and given that at least 70% of Americans are Christian of some sort, I see no problem with the kiddies starting the day here with a Christian prayer...moreso in those areas which are closer to 90 or 95% Christian. I trust the local governments and school boards to be cognizant of the beliefs and desires of their people and I know that the Constitution says that the government cannot mess with the free exercise of religion, even if it is on public property.

No, I'm talking about a Muslim community in the United States. If Vegas became 51% Muslim, I am quite certain you would have an issue with Islam in your local school district.

And you are correct, the constitution protects the free exercise of religion on public property. If a child wants to pray in school, let them pray.

It isn't a matter of propping up my religion - I don't want my government, mostly paid for by myself and my fellow Christians, to be propping up the absurd secular humanist religion that the left adheres to. Let it alone, and things will be fine...there is no need for you to war on religion...if what we do as Christians is silliness addressed to an empty sky, then no possible harm can come of it, even to the most stern atheist.

Ho hum, back to the war on religion idea. I'm sick of talking past you, but I'll just restate that it's about protecting religious freedom, not a "war on religion."

Mellow ou