How many more soldiers do you want to die over there before you decide it's time for them to come home?

Will the insurgency just magically end one day?

Suicide bombers will have some sort of epiphany?

Suddenly, arabs all over the middle east will stop hating our occupation?

I know I shouldn't post these questions on a blog that supported Steve King and his claim that Iraq is safer than some American cities, but somebodys got to do it.

You know, once Kerry, and then Levin, put out those cut-and-run amendments, we should have known that someone in the Pentagon had leaked Casey's plan to Congress. This happens all the time--the DemocRATs put a bill/amendment up for a vote, the vote is overwhelmingly "NO," and the following week, whatever they had proposed, is some shape or form, is announced. Then, the Dems act as if they were right all along. What a bunch of putzes...

If it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck.... It seems that the Rove spin-machine is falling apart. "Just gimme some truth.". Peace

The whole debate is absurd. Of course Gen. Casey's plan for troop withdrawal is not the same as cutting & running. It simply can't be, because he's a Republican. End of discussion.

Oi oi, I've been saying we were going to reduce as has the President for the last two years. It's just natural that we wouldn't need the same troop levels as the Iraqi's come in and do the same jobs.

The politicians have no need to stick their noses into troop movements.

I'm not going to play semantic games here: Everyone knew years ago that the US was going to reduce its military presence in Iraqi as conditions warranted: Ideally we'd like to get down to just the Marine guards on the US Embassy, as we have in almost every country on Earth. As Iraqi security forces stood up we were going to stand down: it's only logical.

Democrats, however, want credit for this so they've been screaming for "troop pullout" since Day 1 of the invasion. "Eventually the troops will be pulled out and we'll claim credit making them go!", they think, "and we'll get political credit for it!" What they did was the political equivalent of rushing to a burning building and setting up a soapbox on the corner to criticize the firefighters for taking too long to put out the fire, instead of pitching in and helping.

I'm not going to play semantic games here: Everyone knew years ago that the US was going to reduce its military presence in Iraqi as conditions warranted: Ideally we'd like to get down to just the Marine guards on the US Embassy, as we have in almost every country on Earth. As Iraqi security forces stood up we were going to stand down: it's only logical.

Democrats, however, want credit for this so they've been screaming for "troop pullout" since Day 1 of the invasion. "Eventually the troops will be pulled out and we'll claim credit making them go!", they think, "and we'll get political credit for it!" What they did was the political equivalent of rushing to a burning building and setting up a soapbox on the corner to criticize the firefighters for taking too long to put out the fire, instead of pitching in and helping.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Troop reduction is the first step to 'cut and run'. To declare reductions can take place within a few months is another idiotic prediction like saying "the insurgency has run its course". I will eat a Canadian beaver, fur and all if this can be accomplished within 12 months without Iraq collapsing into total chaos.

Alright, you've all stated what you think the problem is with the Democrats. But what about you bushbots?

Up to about a week ago, you criticized Democrats for suggesting any kind of troop withdrawals, characterizing any proposal as "cut and run". Doesn't matter whether it was rapid response forces, conditions-based, whatever.

Now a week later, it turns out that General Casey, and apparently the administration is for a phased withdrawal as well. What do you do??? Do you pivot with Dear Leader, and heartily embrace this proposal. Or do you stick to your guns (literally), and keep advocating no withdrawal and vilifying those who do (Ex. Why does General Casey side with the terrorists?)

Which is it, bushbots??

We stay until the job is complete. Period. No surrender, EVER!

This is rediculous indeed. Wasn't Kerry's cut and run plan suppose to be to get troops out by last June? Then again last december? Then this march? I guess the strategy is to just demand immediate pullouts every few months up until we start bringing home the majority of our troops so they can say "see! It's the democratic party who brought the troops home! look at us! vote for us!".

I'm utterly amazed at politics these days... are we even at war? Did 9/11 actually happen? Is the US being threatened by anyone?

By the way these democrats and the NYT act, no, none of that happened/is happening. It's all a game to them.

*Shakes Head*

Steve, I'm not sure you consider me a "bushbot" but I'll answer as I've answered every time someone has called for immediete or "phased" withdrawls. What many call "cut and run."

I have always said that we will reduce, as has the President. What I don't want is this reduction "mandated" by some politician somewhere. This includes the President. I say, that as the Iraqi's move up to take over our jobs we start pulling back. Slowly but surely as NEED dictates. As the SITUATION ON THE GROUND dictates. Not because it's December 14th, 2006 or whatever some other idiot says.

That's like fighting a wildfire and having an engine and it's crew go "oh it's 5PM our shift is over let's go home." It makes no sense there and it makes no sense in Iraq either.

Found this transcript on Salon
and it looks like Mr. Snow(job) found himself between Iraq and a very hard to explain place.

SALON-
Cutting and running? That's the other guys, sort of, kind of, I think......

As we noted earlier today, Democrats are smarting over having spent a week getting beat up for proposing a phased withdrawal from Iraq only to learn afterward that Gen. George Casey may be proposing ... a phased withdrawal from Iraq. But the Democrats aren't the only ones who find themselves in an awkward spot just now. At this morning's gaggle, White House press secretary Tony Snow was asked how Republicans could justify attacking Democrats for pushing withdrawal when one of the president's top commanders apparently plans to do exactly the same thing.

As the exchange below indicates, Snow had a hard time explaining.

Question: Tony, you had Democrats over the weekend -- Sen. Kerry, Sen. Boxer -- saying that even the framework of a plan would kind of fly in the face of Republican [claims that] the Democrats want to cut and run. Do you have any response to that? I mean, the president, himself, has implied it, Rove has said it outright.

Snow: There's still a pretty significant difference between what Sen. Kerry or even Sen. Levin had proposed and what Gen. Casey is talking about, simply because one is driven by a calendar and the other is driven by events on the ground. So there is a significant difference.

Question: But doesn't Gen. Casey -- like, part one of his plan has a significant number of troops, two combat brigades, coming out in September. Doesn't that give the enemy --

Snow: Well, actually, he has one, and it -- you know, again, this is not, I believe the way, at least it was reported, is you've got two brigades by the end of the year, September being short of the end of the year. But I may be misreading it. In any event, you've got to keep in mind that this is not a statement of policy. Again, Gen. Casey keeps in mind a number of scenarios. You're talking about scenarios here ... And so I would caution very strongly against everybody thinking, well, they're going to pull two brigades out. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. That really does depend upon a whole series of things that we cannot, at this juncture, predict. But Gen. Casey -- again, I would characterize this more in terms of scenario building, and we'll see how it proceeds.

A few minutes later, a reporter asked Snow if any of Casey's "scenarios" might involve a significant increase in U.S. troop levels. "You know," Snow said, "here's the thing about military plans: You don't disclose them. So rather than trying to talk about various scenarios for typical reasons, Gen. Casey will have a number of scenarios in mind for differing situations on the ground. As I said, as conditions on the ground change, he will adjust those plans. But I'm certainly not going to announce in advance anything that he may have in mind for the president, or that he may be recommending -- just don't do that in a time of war."

Must be really hard to talk when your tounge has been all tied up in Iraq. He's now got a whole new set of catch phrases. LOL

Classic!!

Hey folks, even CNN admitted these plans were different. I was amazed.

Salon? Bwahahahahahaha!!!! oh yeah, like anyone here is going to believe anything from that radical left wing rag. Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!

CJ-

Good Idea!! Because you know that part the Transcript is going to be so different when it appears on NewsMax. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Plus the dems want us to cut and run to Okinawa.

Salon? You mean the left-wing blogger index? At least the contributors to Salon readily admit that they refuse to read any conservative bloggers opinions or listen to conservatives.

Wow, wow, wow, you lefty's get more & more ridiculous by every passing day! Don't you realize you are becoming extinct as we speak! Hollywood suffers, NYT suffers, any words of wisdom from Mikey Moore lately, let's see, Canada, Germany, (France soon enough) have elected conservatives governments, the insurgency can barely keep itself in the papers behind Kim jung ill(clown) & that idiot in Iran, oh yah almost forgot, THEY DID FIND WMD'S(old or not, doesn't really matter), The Iraqi government is finally taking their places, and all you libs have to show for it............nothing, your once again SOL! you can't even get more than a few military families of whom have paid the ultimate sacrifice to support you all/ in contrast a support your troops group has gotten 40,000 current military families of which a substantial amount have paid for your freedom in blood , to sign on with them! I'm sorry, am I striking nerves, are you guys feeling kinda crappy right now, so sorry!Bwahahaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Your three years of grasping at straws are rapidly drawing to an end! Lefty, Steve, Canuck, bet you guys spend nights trying to dream of ways to spin the inevitable to your advantage! It ain't gonna happen boyz/girlz, my suggestion to you is to jump ship quick before you sink, I mean that's what you wanted to do in Iraq, shouldn't be to hard for you! Bwahahaaaahaahaaaaaahaaaaaa! Sorry, can't hep maself!

Steve says

"Up to about a week ago, you criticized Democrats for suggesting any kind of troop withdrawals, characterizing any proposal as "cut and run". Doesn't matter whether it was rapid response forces, conditions-based, whatever."

Once again your comprehension skills are non existant. What friggin part about not establishing a known timetable dont you understand pinhead. As I said before..Your positions and arguements are facile, superficial and either willfully ignorant or staggeringly stupid.

Since you also seem unable to comprehend what I said earlier I'll also repeat myself... unfortunately in writing I cant speak any slower to take into account your "special needs"

What the h*** do you think the plan was? Stay forever? Oh wait they didnt telegraph our plans personally to you and osama so that means they never had them. Oh yea I know the right is soooo stupid that we never ever considered that an option. You Dims are so smart, gosh were lucky.

Bush just didnt give the oposition the goalpost. It must be a novel concept to the lib mind...dont tell the enemy what your going to do and have secret programs to catch them before they strike.

Can we play poker sometime I'd love to know whats in your hand before I bet. Surely using your "logic" I have a right to know.

Peace MF

ZOOT,

Quit being a friggin-moron.

When did all of a sudden the Iraqi government stand up on its own, was it before or after the roadblock around the greenzone by insurgents, or the continued sectarian violence, or was it the reports of 80 Iraqis kidnapped, or maybe it was after the russians were be-headed.

You can live in fantasy-land all you want, but the Iraqis are ready to get rid of the albatross, which is the US, quickly and as cleanly as possible. This isn't thanx to Der Leader, or any of his 'wait and see' policies.

Either way, im glad you folks who are cheerleading for the continued death od our troops aren't going to get your wish; the rabid anti-troop, anti-american view of you nutjobs is amazing, may these brave boys and girls have mercy on you for your treason against American ideals.

BRING EM HOME!!

ZootAllure,

Thank you for the response. I'm sorry if these latest events have upset you, but there's no reason to get angry. Actually, I comprehend quite well what's going on. ANY discussion by Democrats about troop withdrawals in any form has been vilified by Republicans and you Bushbots. This, of course, is a purely political move, designed to cast Democrats as weak. Assuming that you have a different plan, I have repeatedly asked you bushbots for specific metrics that we can gauge success by. None have been provided, except bland rhetoric ("Stay the course", "Complete the mission") It is therefore pretty safe to assume that you have no plan for victory, and you certainly have no exit strategy. Your only real concern is political, beating Democrats.

Now that General Casey has presented a withdrawal plan, you are quick to point out differences between this and the Democrats. Whatever the differences, here are the similarities: General Casey calls for a rapid reaction force based in Kuwait (similar to Murtha's proposal), Gen Casey calls for specific troop withdrawals on a specific timeframe (similar to nearly all Democratic proposals). I believe this fits into your definition of a "known timetable", or "goalposts", or whatever euphemism you choose.

Again, I must ask: what do you think of Casey's plan? Do you support it and its explicit known timetable, or do you still prefer bland rhetoric?

Finally, a word of advice: if you're going to base your post on the rather juvenile argument "You're stupid", it usually helps if you can spell. (Hint: there are 2 p's in opposition.)

TEO

"When did all of a sudden the Iraqi government stand up on its own, was it before or after the roadblock around the greenzone by insurgents"

Please translate, I never learned to understand incoherent drivel.

"You can live in fantasy-land all you want, but the Iraqis are ready to get rid of the albatross, which is the US, quickly and as cleanly as possible."

Did you read that on the back of your fruit loops cereal box. Just because you want something to be true doesnt mean it is. I have seen nothing credible that would bring me to that conclusion. Got any proof sparky?

"Either way, im glad you folks who are cheerleading for the continued death of our troops"

NO ONE, other than libs and radical islamisists are doing that. Its astounding the complete disconnect you have from reality in order to maintain your twisted world view. The fact that we disagree on many points give you NO right to charactize anyone as cheerleading.

"the rabid anti-troop, anti-american view of you nutjobs is amazing, may these brave boys and girls have mercy on you for your treason against American ideals."

I have talked at length to several folks who have done tours over there. I can guarantee that if you spewed your mental diarrhea to them your ass would be handed back to you. They HATE and I do mean really HATE libs, they consider you partially responsible for the death of the soldiers.

TEO, I tried to have a civil discussion with you in the other thread. I guess that was a wasted effort and if you want to name call I can oblige. You ignored most of the points and generally resorted to boilerplate bs. You flat ignored 2 questions that I asked 3 separate times. So for the 4th time...

"We have seen how the moderate muslim can overcome the radical"

Where would you consider this has happened to the degree necessary for us to coexist?

"It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region"

You have stated previously that we should get out of the ME. How do we accomplish this without a large and controlling military presence in the region?

Blind Eye,

We conservatives are not "cheerleading" for the continued death of our troops. To suggest we are is proof of your twisted view of the world.

What we are doing is supporting the mission they are performing to root out terrorism in the terrorist's backyard, instead of fighting them here in the US. At the same time, they are allowing the Iraqi government to develop as a democracy.

To bring them home before the mission is accomplished will do a number of things:

- It will allow those opposed to freedom in Iraq (you know, you and the terrorists) a chance to prevent democracy to take hold.

- It will make meaningless the sacrifices of those who have served. Those who have served and are serving during Operation Iraqi Freedom want us to complete the mission. Thats why tens of thousands of them have volunteered to go back to ensure the mission is accomplished. They see the day to day results of bringing freedom and democracy to the people of the Middle East. You, with your "Third Eye" are blind to their accomplishments.

- It will give the Democrats validation of their anti-Bush, anti-America, anti-freedom view. You liberals could care less about freeing 50 million Iraqis and Afghans from tyrany. You only care about undermining the Bush Administration.

The plan all along was to remain there only as long as the Iraqi government needs us. Try reading the many plans published by the White House and the DoD on the subject. Each and every one of them talk about reducing our presence as the Iraqi Security Forces are able to shoulder more of the responsibility.

The Democrat's plan was to cut and run before the Iraqis were ready to provide for their own internal and external defense. The Bush Administration plan is to reduce our presense as the Iraqis were ready to provide for their own internal and external defense. Big difference.

But that is lost on you. You only see doom and gloom with everything the Bush Administration does. You life must be pretty miserable with your pessimistic attitude. But I suppose that pessimism is a requirement for being a liberal. Blame the US for all the ills in the world.

It is our fault that Islamist-fascists have been attacking us for the past decade. We just don't understand that all they want is peace and to convert all of us to their peaceful religion, or subjugate us, or kill us.

It's our fault that Saddam was a tyrant since we supported him in his war against Iran. I guess that means its our fault that Stalin and the Soviets developed a repressive society since he was our ally during WWII.

I guess its our fault that the Chinese continue to have a repressive dictatorship since they were also our ally during WWII.

At first I thought that you were interested in reasonable debate on the issues of today. But now I see that you are no better that "axis" and the rest of the lunatic liberals that frequent this site.

ZOOT,

You are indeed a blustering idiot, you can't read apparently, either that or you just prefer to ignore what is presented.

Turkey, Jordan, UAE, all of these nations are safe nations for westerners, they don't have great troubles with terrorism. Does that answer your damn question, for the 3rd time?

The rest of your rebut, is hyperbole, I won't bother wasting my time explaining things.

Your anecdotal evidence is quite at odds with the anecdotal evidence I have from my father, who is Al-Anbar, working with the Marines; he repeatedly tells me of the wish that we would get done with this BS war, that they can't wait to get a real cup of coffee, and leave 'Hadji' and his brothers alone, they are tired of a fight that they increasingly can't justify to themselves; so save your threats of ass-kickin for someone else who cares, schmuck!

A-10,

Keep your BS for yourself, all this crystal-ball gazing has got to get tiring for you.

Staying to honor the last dead soldier, is about the most idiotic way of running a war i can think of, that says no matter what happens, it was all for naught if we don't "win", well what the hell is winning here?

We Removed Saddam, we gave them their freedom and elections, we helped them build a police force and an army, what else can we do for them; do we need to hold it for them while they shake-off?

This is just the same old game of, blame someone else for the problems we create, just so we don't look like the idiots we are. You can't admit our actions were wrong, that no matter how much you wanted to believe this was some grand, altruistic venture, it wasn't, and it never will be.

Can you tell me how much good we have been doing in Afghanistan, now that we have left them, AGAIN, to twist in the wind while the Taliban regroup, and the poppy-trade ramps back up to pre-war levels, some benefactor we have been to them.

In this whole debacle, we have shirked the responsibility we have to our own kids, we have put our own domestic needs on a back-burner, prefering to bedate the merit of a marriage amendment ban, flag burning, and choosing not to tax the top 1% of the tax bracket...what a bunch of BS, you little boys and your play-time in the sand-box is over, the grown-ups are here to take over the reigns of your failed policies.

"You are indeed a blustering idiot"

Awe I've gone a made the poor wittle wib mad. My ego is crushed. Tell you what monkey boy if you think those places are "safe" I've got some Colorado beachfront property to sell you.

"I won't bother wasting my time explaining things."

Whatever will I do without my big toe to point the way to enlightenment.

Speaking of cant read when did you ever, in the fevered swamp you call a mind, answer this question.

"It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region"

You have stated previously that we should get out of the ME. How do we accomplish this without a large and controlling military presence in the region?

Since in your delusion you think you have answered this just cut and paste. You can handle that cant you? How old are you anyway, 20 maybe? Gosh your right I should avail myself of all your hard lived wisdom and perspective.

ZOOT,

have you been to Turkey, or the UAE recently? They have cops on every corner, they care about money, and business, not BS fundamentalism; why don't you check out the crime stats for the UAE, check our Dubai, look at the stats there, try educating yourself before you go shooting your pie-hole off.

Maybe you can replace the toe with the crystal-ball bush has been using to direct him in his foreign policy decisions.

ohhh, so now we are switching questions, well, I will answer this one too.

The ME has been an area obsessed with business since before Christ was a jizz-spot in Joseph's tunic, Money is the name of the game in this part of the world, If we get the hell out of their business, i guranatee they will have their own people back in line within a generation, now i could be wrong, but it seems to be that it took a lot of western petro-dollars to incubate Wahhabis and Sufi thinking, infact we were the ones who helped radical Islam flourish in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran...

You can think whatever you want about me, but i have facts, you have bubkis, LOL!!

Either way, im glad you folks who are cheerleading for the continued death od our troops aren't going to get your wish; the rabid anti-troop, anti-american view of you nutjobs is amazing, may these brave boys and girls have mercy on you for your treason against American ideals.

BRING EM HOME!!

Posted by: Third Eye Open at June 27, 2006 08:43 AM

I have talked at length to several folks who have done tours over there. I can guarantee that if you spewed your mental diarrhea to them your ass would be handed back to you. They HATE and I do mean really HATE libs, they consider you partially responsible for the death of the soldiers.

Posted by: ZootAllure at June 27, 2006 11:05 AM

You are absolutely right zoot, & TEO is blind as a bat, but hey we already knew that! Let em live in their world of fantasy & conspiracy, no skin off our backs, just makes us work harder and appreciate what we have all the more! Thanks moonbats! P.S. TEO(blind) Hate is a kind word for zoot to use!

Turkey, Jordan, UAE, all of these nations are safe nations for westerners, they don't have great troubles with terrorism. Does that answer your damn question, for the 3rd time?

You can think whatever you want about me, but i have facts, you have bubkis, LOL!!

Posted by: Third Eye Open at June 27, 2006 02:11 PM

Bwawaaahahaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa, Your killin me smalls....I mean blind eye! I love your Idea of facts! Of course this explains everything! I like it when you ratchet up the rhetoric, the passion, & the name calling.........you f..king blind piece of sh.. moonbat! *sigh*.....oops I'm sorry, I had one of those blind rage moments, you ever have those blind bat?

Bear,

Yeah, sometimes, but then I remember I am not the one cheerleading for the un-needed death of more of our soldiers, so I sleep just fine, but I would suppose you don't see a problem in your opnions either, so, we will just have to agree to disagree...schmuck

Blind,

Your just cheerleading traitors that soldiers admit cause the deaths of more soldiers in the field. Good for you, glad you sleep well at night thanks to those soldiers you could give a sh.. about!

TEO

"They have cops on every corner,"

So why do they need cops on every corner in this peaceful paradise? Just askin.

Steve says

"ANY discussion by Democrats about troop withdrawals in any form has been vilified by Republicans "

Total BS. Any discussion that contains HARD DATES has been vilified you tool.

"metrics that we can gauge success by. None have been provided, except bland rhetoric ("Stay the course", "Complete the mission")"

Are you that naive you believe that in the detailed reports, briefings, and operational plans the metrics they judge are "Stay the course", "Complete the mission" are you really that stupid?
I have no doubt that there is a list of metrics as long as my arm and even if explained to you in Sesame Street language you wouldnt get it.

"designed to cast Democrats as weak."

Dims need no help in being seen as weak, all one needs to do is look.

"It is therefore pretty safe to assume that you have no plan for victory, and you certainly have no exit strategy."

I'll bet you ASSume a lot of the mythical knowledge you have...lol

"Your only real concern is political, beating Democrats."

Hasnt seemed to be a problem lately, thanks for your concern.

"General Casey calls for a rapid reaction force based in Kuwait (similar to Murtha's proposal)"

Only about 4000+ miles difference...gosh your right no big deal.

"I believe this fits into your definition of a "known timetable", or "goalposts", or whatever euphemism you choose."

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said Casey talked about the issues that lie ahead.

"The challenges that he talked about are very real and somewhat unpredictable," said Whitman. "And because of that, there's going to need to be a certain amount of flexibility that the commander has, to adjust forces over time."

"There should not be hard and fast timetables associated with our force adjustments," said Whitman. "The commanders on the ground need the flexibility to be able to adjust the troop levels based on the conditions that exist."

Opps wrong again Steve.

"Again, I must ask: what do you think of Casey's plan? Do you support it and its explicit known timetable, or do you still prefer bland rhetoric?"

General Casey said. "I am confident we will be able to continue to take reductions over the course of this year. It is both the security situation and the progress of the Iraqi security forces. What we have always said was there would be gradual reduction, over time, as the Iraqi security forces assumed a larger and larger role."

Yes I agree with what Casey has said...just not what you simplistically misrepresent he said.

"(Hint: there are 2 p's in opposition.)"

Yewr pathetic.

Bear,

Are you calling the guys coming back from iraq, and running for elected office as Democrats, as traitors...they seem to think differently from you, despite what my opinion is.

http://www.democrats.org/page/content/fightingdems/nominees/

ZOOT,

"So why do they need cops on every corner in this peaceful paradise? Just askin."

then if that is the case, why do we need cops?

To keep you in your cell?

I’m sorry, to keep you in your government sponsored hospitality suite?

"then if that is the case, why do we need cops?"

I figured you would miss the point. Thanks for not disappointing.