In a word...YES!!

I wonder if "I don't need no stinkin' jury" Murtha will apologize on national tv to our troops once they are proven innocent. There is new evidence emerging that U.S. Marines did not wantonly kill Iraqi civilians in Haditha last November - and the soldiers' accounts of what happened are backed up by videotape shot by an ultralight vehicle. Murtha can KMA.

Kim,

Ask yourself, what are the root causes of why marines may engage in such horrific acts, ask if being left to twist in the wind by the CiC who is sworn to use them wisely, could be causing men to give up hope for finding meaning in an ever increasingly meaningless conflict, ask whether watching your buddies die, with no real spectre of ending the fight could make a young man or woman snap...then once you answer that, you can go back to blaming a well decorated veteren for jumping the gun, till then, stop whining, and put your ass away, you're scarin' the children

xoxoxo

Do you think Murtha's medals give him the right to accuse our troops before the investigation is complete? Do you think because he is a veteran, it gives him the right to assume our troops are guilty before they are proven innocent. Gee, I thought it was the other way around ... innocent until proven guilty.

Why should I ask myself that when the Marines are going to be proven innocent of these charges? Evidence will show the Marines did NOT engage in any horrific act in Haditha. Are you not pleased with that or were you hoping they would be found guilty?

BTW ... I prefer Kimberly over Kim. :-)

P.S. I apologize for scaring you and the other neorads on this site.

xxxooo

Kimberly,

Whether these guys are found innocent or guilty is of no personal weight to me, I hope they will not be put into anymore situations where they are being shot at or blown up, but that means making it crystal clear how screwed up our "plan" in iraq is, we are waiting around for something to happen, the whole while we are being played like a fiddle; Murtha is the least of our worries, he isn't planting IEDs or shooting at our folks, but the mere presence of our military in the midst of a civil war, is not helping our cause, get them the hell out.

P.S. Thanx for the thought, smooches

You're welcome. I am not one for scarin' children.

I am also not one for cutting and running ... and neither is a mass majority of our troops. If we cut and run, what does that say to the men and women who gave their lives for this mission? Sorry. We know you gave the ultimate sacrifice, but we've got to surrender now. Where would Japan and Germany be today if we had cut and run?

Kimberly,

Stayin to honor the sacrifice of the last guy is about the dumbest reason for continuing a failed peace plan I have ever heard, staying the course does not mean we get to wait around until everything clears itself up, that is lazy thinking, we need to be proactive, and let these folks hash out their own differences, our men and women died for iraq to have elections, a democratic government, and a police and army, we did that, get them the hell out!

So, the unindicted co-conspirator in the abscam corruption trial is at it again eh?

Apparently Murtha and TEO and the other whack jobs forgot about 9/11, or the first WTC, or Khobar Towers, or the USS Cole, or the embassy bombings, or Beiruit, or the 1972 Olympics, or.....

Yeah Murtha...it was because of Abu Grahib.

What planet are these idiots like Murtha on?

"In a word yes"

Classic liberalism. Don't do anything, just hope it goes away. Don't get involved. Don't remove evil dictators. Don't get in Hitler's way in the 1930's.

Just close your eyes and dream of utopia.

Classic.

Maybe you forgot about:

Financing OBL

Financing the Taliban

Financing the Wahhabist movement through Saudi Arabia

Helping to overthrow Mossedegh, and then backing the overthrow of the Shah

Just because you do SOMETHING, doesn't mean it isn't something stupid

It may be a dumb reason to you, but not to a majority of our troops.

OK. Let's take your advice and cut and run like we did in Vietnam. Today, Vietnam is the poorest nation in the world. They have forced labor, oppression, and 1.4M South Vietnamese have been relocated. If we had stayed and won the war (which we were winning) ... if we had stayed the course and not let S. Vietnam and N. Vietnam "hash it out" ... if we had not listened to the neorads ... would Vietnam have formed a democracy and look like present-day Japan and Germany?

What do you think will happen if we leave Iraq in it's current situation? Wouldn't that be a prime opportunity for Iran to take over? How about AQ? Isn't our leaving their prime objective? Why should we give AQ and Iran what they want?

Kimberly,

Who gave us dominion to force democracy on anyone?

Do you advocate we go into every state that doesn't have a democracy and start raising hell, until such time as they comply?

Who the hell said we have the right to go propping up and bringing down governments?

We didn't require an occupying nation to start our country, just a lot of time, and some pissed off locals.

Now you see why the rest of the world hates us, we have this Superman complex.

TEO: I love how you answer my questions with your own set of questions. Answer mine and then I will continue to answer yours. Deal?

You are right about Murtha. He is the least of the right's worries. In fact, he can keep on talkin' for all I care. It's amusing to watch as he and Dean compete for top billing as GOP Poster Boy of the Year.

Kimberly,

Your questions are mere rhetoric, and quite frankly, hyperbole.

What answer do you want? You assert we would have won Vietnam, there was no exit strategy there either, just more of the same, and hope we either exterminate the north, or they give up, that isn't a plan, that is wishful thinking.

N. Vietnam wasn't communist, their leader Ho Chi Minh was a socialist, whom we snubbed when he came to us for help, so we forced him to take the help of Russia, so another example of us choosing the wrong path, then trying to blame the outcome on someone else, or you can call it sticking our nose where it just don't belong. The French had been there for a century trying to do the same thing we were doing, maybe we should have just butt out.

Iran one way or the other is going to be a politcal force in iraq, the Shia, and Al-Sistani are, and will continue to be aligned with Iran, now if you can figure out a way to nuetralise the power that Sistani and his political bloc have, then so be it, but one way or the other Iran has sway.

On the silly question about AQ taking hold, maybe you have forgotten that foreign fighters are about 10% of the insurgency, they have made a very "convenient" bargain with them; the foreign fighters want to kill Americans, the Iraqi Insurgents want America out, and want to gain power in the government. If we let them flush out the terrorists by themeselves, and then allow the locals to be re-assimiliated back into society, then the whole issue will be taken care of on their end. They don't like the foreign guys anymore than we do, but if they are helping them kill Americans, then they will tolerate them, once you remove us as a target, who do you think they are going to fight if the Foreign insurgents keep blowing up Iraqis?

So as you can see, just because you have an overwhelming urge to help them out, doesn't mean they want our help, we toppled Saddam, they were happy, we helped them form a government, they were happy, now it's time to let them stand up for themselves, we can't hold their hand for 10 or 20 years until we feel its safe. PERIOD!

TEO,

Man,you are really out there in the leftwing alternate universe, aren't you?

But I guess this is answering my question - Murtha is what you want. Cool - we'll have fun with this right in to November.

your Turd eye is open, and full of poop.
Im a Viet Nam vet, combat Marine, and im sick of these phony "band aid" wounded "highly decorated"
self serving phonies acting like only they can speak on the war against radical ISLAM.

NOT TERROR.....radical ISLAM.
THEY have declared WAR on the western world ..infadels to you turd, and nothing will stop them until they conquer us and install scharia law, or we crush them.

We have been hammered by these nutcases since jimmah carter and nothing has changed except more daring attacks and mounting deaths.

We either fight them on their soil in their countries or here in our cities that easy.

TEO: Thanks for assuming I agreed with the US going into Vietnam. Just because I believe we should have stayed to win the war doesn't mean I think we should have gone there in the first place. (The fact that we were winning was already discussed on another thread so I won't go into that.) Perhaps it's your way of including your anti-war sentiments to every war the US has ever been involved in. I'd be interested in your thoughts about the Revolutionary War. Do you agree with Carter that it would have been better if we lost to the British?

Ho Chi Minh may have been a socialist at the beginning but he is most famous in Vietnam for establishing communist control (According to Marx, socialism is a stage on the way to communism). Minh's desire to spread communism in parts of Vietnam may be the very reason why both President Wilson and Truman "snubbed" him.

Can you tell me when a census was taken on the percentage of foreign fighters vs local insurgency? ("Mohammad, if you put down your IED for one moment, would you please answer this quick survey? Saudia Arabia or local boy?" LOL!)

As far as Iran, I'd love to see the young people rebel and take over the regime. That would solve that problem.

Your statement regarding the insurgency assimilating back into society if we leave is ... well ... pure hyperbolesh*t ... IMHO. If the insurgency wants control of the government, will they not continue to fight the current democratically installed government as well as the foreign terrorists? I have a feeling you could care less either way. You just want us out. Period.

I agree that my "overwhelming urge" (wow, sounds so melodramatic!!) to help the Iraqis doesn't mean they want our help. The fact that they have asked for our help and continued presence does.

Kimberly...you also forgot that when we left Vietnam, an estimated 2 million Vietnamese were slaughtered as a result.

But then again, Dems don't care about other people any more that aren't Americans. They've made that perfectly clear in their arguments the last few years. "Keep Saddam in power...he wasn't a that big a threat and so what if he killed a bunch of his own people."

Kimberly,

I tend to believe that we should reserve our military for wars that we have no other choice but to fight, Afghanistan was one of them, Nicaragua, for instance, was not one of them, neither is Iraq, you can work yourself into a tizzy all you want, but it doesn't change the fact we entered into an illegal, and obviously stupid battle.

If no one told you, we live in a socialistic democracy, same as Canada, and most of Europe; don't conflate the two, communism doesn't work, socialism does, infact in practice they aren't compatable.

Our own military estimates the numbers, I tend to trust the guys on the ground more than your half-baked assumptions otherwise.

"The foreign element has not been more than 10 percent of the insurgency. Even if there were more, they could not do much without the Iraqis supporting them logistically"

--Prof. Ahmed Hashim; US Naval War College

The young people did overthrow the last government, unfortunately, they put into power the current government.

If it continues to be what it is, which is a civil war, then we can't stop that, but I would bet if the Shia and Kurds want to put down the Sunni (minority) uprising, they have the ability to do so, the PUK is no joke, and Sadr has plenty of folks in his militias, we aren't going to make the Sunni feel any better about not being in power, but we can take away one of their targets.

Time will soon tell what the Iraqis want, from the plan being floated, it sounds like they would like us out ASAP.

When did you folks grow some heart, you want to continue to let people languish with sub-par health coverage, and take away the guaranteed social safety net, but then for foreigners you are willing to sacrifice our kids and our treasures, all in the name of altruism? What a joke, your actions don't match up with your words. LOL

The only one working themselves into a tizzy is you, TEO, and you have really flipped your lid this time. We live in a socialist democracy? Are you kidding me? I think you missed a few keys while you were typing. Didn't you mean to type, "I wish we lived in a socialist democracy"?

I've already pointed out why the current regime was elected in a previous thread. Things have changed. The potential revolution is gathering steam once again as most of the freedoms the younger Iranians once enjoyed are slowly being taken away. More power to 'em.

I'm afraid I have no solution for the healthcare situation. Then again, neither do the Democrats. I do know welfare recipients receive free health and dental care.

Speaking of which, let me give you a personal account of our nation's guaranteed safety net. I have a friend who had been on welfare for 12 years. Her mother and grandmother were also on welfare. Why were they on government assistance for so long and why was this way of life inherited from one generation to the next? The reason is our government didn't give them any other choices.

The current administration has now made it mandatory for all welfare recipients to go to job services for assistance in finding a job before they are able to receive any assistance (except in cases of emergencies, ie no food, etc.). My friend went, received job training, and found a good paying job. I have seen a remarkable change in her. She now has self-confidence and self-esteem, is excited about the new possibilities in her life, is proud to show her children that she can support them, and is hopeful her children won't follow her down the welfare path. So, tell me, what is wrong with taking away the guaranteed safety net?

"MIAMI — American presence in Iraq is more dangerous to world peace than nuclear threats from North Korea or Iran, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said to an audience of more than 200 in North Miami Saturday afternoon."

Were I in Sun-Sentinel's shoes, I'd sit quiet as a mouse, hoping this will all blow over without much more fuss. Elizabeth Baier quotes Murtha several times in her Breaking World News (Brit Hume of Fox News as well as the Wall Street Joural have taken Baier's ball and run with it) claims of what Murtha said in Miami. When direct quotes are used, it's often the case the reporter has recorded the event, in order to make certain their quotes are accurate. What initially drew my attention was her lack of quotes for what she claims Murtha said in her first paragraph.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-ctownhall25jun25,0,7119684.story

Shortly after reading the Sun Sentinel story, I googlenews'ed "Murtha Miami Iran Nuclear"
Among the dozens of hits quoting Ms. Baier indexed within a few hours of the Sun Sentinel's earth shaking expose' of Murtha's talk, I found another article published by the Miami Herald.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/14896189.htm

You will notice, this writer totally missed Murtha's "shot heard around the world" (technorati now has 400+ hits for what Ms. Baier claims Murtha said.)

On the unlikely chance Ms. Baier did *not* quote Murtha from a recording she made at the event ... I've written the Florida International University Public Relations folks asking them to preserve their audio/video recording of this event they sponsored for Murtha to speak at.

I've sent inquiries to the entire editorial boards of the Sun Sentinel, Wall Street Journal, Arizona Sun Star and Miami Herald, as well as Knight Ridder, asking them to pursue any recording of this event, in pursuit of the real news story, Elizabeth Baier.

It shouldn't take more than a day, or three, for Ms Baier to experience personally, that the world of journalism is flat. Whether you like or despise John Murtha is no longer the story. The real story is ... just how far has mainstream media sunk? Is Jerry Springer Journalism the new standard for reporters?

Here's what should strike every blogger as truly shocking... If Murtha never said anything like this ... If America's Conservative Talking Heads plastering this "Murtha fiction" all over the internet, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, then who's to blame for this story achieving such prominence that our enemies will have no trouble finding it, and get the comfort these stories provide them?

Hold your breath and hope that all this aid to our enemies really does have to do with what Murtha said in Miami. Until this gets cleared up by audio/video recordings verifying what was said, it's America's media "dittoheads", including bloggers that are the ones providing comfort our enemies.

Let's hope Fox News, Wall Street Journal, and of course, conservative bloggers ain't the real culprits giving comfort to our enemies.

Keep in mind there are only two stories written by reporters who were actually in Miami last Saturday, where Murtha spoke. One used Mutha's outrageous comments as her opening paragraph, and the other, at a competing Newspaper in Florida, never mentioned them at all.

I spent a few hours on the phone with a friend of mine who is editor for a news site. I'm letting him run with this ball. You can follow how this story develops at:

http://theinfozone.net/

chancuff

Murtha is no hero. Murths is no patriot. Murtha has lost his moral compass and his understanding of what America means to the world. Further, Murtha's policies would bankrupt the credibility of the Republic.

Kimberly,

Why don't you pickup a book now and again, there are many great ones about our political philosophy. We have social safety-nets, we have social welfare programs, we provide a form of social healthcare, yet at the same time we extole the purpose of a vibrant private sector; we are a socialist democracy. We aren't a socialist democracy, like say Sweden, but we are one none the less, thanks for playing, your parting gift will be an all expense paid trip back to civics class.

The younger iranian, the ones born after '79, only know this revolution, so anyone under 30, really doesn't know anything else. I think most of them have a yearning for what they see on western TV. I hope they can organize, I think they are ready to act, but don't have a lot of leaders who aren't in jail, but I wish them all the best. The point I was trying to make was that we need to keep our grubby paws off their state, let them do what they feel is necessary for themselves, support them, but don't go pushing our chest out, threatening military action, you only alienate the younger generation even more...never discount the power of nationalism.

Seems the people of Mass. have a pretty good plan, for single-payer healthcare, we will see how everything shakes out in the next couple years, but don't be surprised if before the end of the decade we have a universal healthcare system.

I applaud your friend for pulling herself up, I personally agree with the Clinton view of getting people trained, and back to work.

Let me explain a very interesting point my economics professor once told me: The government, doesn't want people off welfare, its true, the government expects a certain amount of people, roughly 4% of the potential working population to not work. Before the 30's these pople in the 4% would have just been poor, and been a burden on their family, now that 4% are given money, which will penetrate into the economy, so the potential GDP gap that would have existed by not having these people have anything, is being covered by giving them welfare, its sad but true, it's in the best interest of the government to not get these people working, infact anyone who says that they want to get everyone working doesn't understand economics, we NEED people unemployed, roughly 4% of the working pool.

By the way, when I said taking away safety nets, I was talking about Social Security, and allowing corporations to dump their pensions onto the government, through bankruptcy, we are shirking the promises made to our workers, so that we can give companies more welfare, I say tax the hell out of the boon revenues of the oil companies, and shift that to the mounting debt of the government programs who take over abandoned pensions. The richest nation in the world has to have an obligation to provide for the basic needs of its citizens, now and in the future, shirking that responsibility to the people that this nation is built upon, is not only wrong, but immoral.

I hope the news media KEEPS this clown on night and day. Please-set up a Murtha media station! He does more to justify our fight (and shame my democrat Father-in-law) than Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh combined!
GO JACK MURTHA...and Ted Kennedy and John Kerry and Hillary Clinton and John McCain and Jimmy Carter and Nancy Bullosi and Al Gore and Al Franken and Alec Baldwin and Babs and Ward Churchill and...

You really are quite childish, TEO. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about. BTW, I thought we were debating, not playing a game.

First, you claim we are a socialistic democracy, and then you claim we are a partial socialistic democracy. If you really want to get down to it ... the US is not a democracy at all. We are a republic. Our founding fathers felt that "democracy" was a form of tyranny. Perhaps you should re-read the two most fundamental documents of our nation. The word "democracy" doesn't appear in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

Thank goodness Clinton joined the Republicans in overhauling the federal welfare program. I applaud him for that.

You really are quite childish, TEO. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

First, you claim we are a socialistic democracy, and then you claim we are a partial socialistic democracy.

If you really want to get down to it ... the US is not a democracy at all. We are a republic. Our founding fathers felt that "democracy" was a form of tyranny. Perhaps you should re-read the two most fundamental documents of our nation. The word "democracy" doesn't appear in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

Thank goodness Clinton joined the Republicans in overhauling the federal welfare program. I applaud him for that.

Kimberly,

While the political structure may be a republic, we do infact live in a Representative Democracy; I did not mention a "Direct Democracy", which would be the Athenian form of democracy. Our form of Representative Democracy, like most other countries is a mixed form of governance, our mix, is Socialistic in nature, like Canada, and most of Europe. I did not assert we were we a pure form of anything, but only made the point that since we have social safety nets in many forms and functions, we are a Socialist Democracy.

and i'm not childish, im a curmudgeon, remember?

TEO - Those aluminum foil hats may keep the voices out, but you're making them too tight.

Murtha was a Marine. So was I. So was Lee Harvey Oswald. Old Murtha sure seemed to jump the gun on convicting the Haidetha Marines. But, he's shown such an irrational set of values these days that hardly seems like a surprise. You yourself said you'd let your DoD father serving in Iraq bleed to death in the street rather than fire on Iraqis. So, I don't really value your opinion much.

Kahn,

I could care less what you think about my opinion.

Having respect for an innocent civilian, is quite different than asking for terrorists to be dealt with, but you seem very eager to throw anyone with brown skin into the same boat, so to be quite honest with you, I don't value your opinion either...funny how things like that work, huh?

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/28/murtha-retraction/

This story has taken so many twists and turns, if you blink, you'll miss the next turn.

New developments are being being tracked at this news site:

http://theinfozone.net/JohnMurtha.html

A notable development: The original Sun-Sentinel's article written by Elizabeth Baier, has been removed from their site and replaced with Ms. Baier's revised story.

If any of you bookmarked Sun-Sentinel's original article that has made them famous for their "the shot heard around the world", check your bookmarked page now. The significance of this is rather overwhelming. This weeks' hysteria, and subsequent retractions and corrections is over something that "never happened".

Interesting to note, it retains the original publication date June 25, 2006, and The Sun-Sentinel did not note this story is a revision.

Cliff Hancuff
The World of Journalism is Flat, Too