I have been watching interviews with the families of these 7 wannabe terrorists. Good lord, can they be any more uneducated!! If these terrorists are anything like their families, the USA ought to thank God for homegrown terrorists like these morons. And when I stop laughing maybe just maybe I will take this more seriously.

America is not a racist nation.................
You're kidding, right Mark?
So I guess that whole bringing my ansestors from Africa to become slaves thing was just white people being nice?
Are you really this dense?
Mark you can't deny that America has its share of racists(Sean Hannity), sexists(Rush Limbaugh)and homophobes(Rick Santourm), because after 230 years of being a free and open society, we still have a long way to to to achieve a more perfect union.

I'm adopting a wait-and-see approach to this one; these guys don't appear to be all that smart. but it makes one wonder how many more "cells" are here in the USA.

On a lighter note, I wonder if these guys would've been caught had their intended target been the New York Times building. Just kidding...

I hate to say this, but teeny-weenie-lily-livered lib is wrong on all three counts. But we all knew that. And to think he was once a slave...

TL:

Isn't it bed time? Throw on your power ranger pjs and say goodnight. Its time for the big boys to do most of the talking.

Ansestors is spelled ancestors. Maybe a spell check would help illustrate your point a little better. I think you owe your "ansestors" at least that.

Benedict Arnold was also a war hero.

Apparently we are only allowed to question him, not Murtha or others

"The worst sort of terrorist attack America could undergo would be an attack by native born Americans..."

You mean someone like that Red State, Rush Limbaugh-listening bomber Timothy McVeigh? Do you mean someone like that?

Let me see, an FBI agent posses as Al Q operative and convinces a few government haters to blow up some buildings and so we arrest them and claim to have stopped a terrorist act - what's wrong with this picture?

Aarontime...you mean the one on Clinton's watch?

Oh that's right, we only blame the attacks on President's when it happens on Bush's watch....my mistake.

By the way..plenty of connections between McVeigh and Islam and Terrorism. It's all out there on the internet.

Finally, those red-state Limbaugh listening people are largely out there in the military right now protecting your soft ass.

The problem with these "homegrown terrorists" is that they have been brainwashed to believe that they are "victims" of, as Teenage Liberal puts it, racism, sexism, and homophobes.

Once upon a time, in a strange, faraway land, my ancestors were brought to America as slaves. That excuses any pathology, any murderous act on my part. I can always pretend that I am "THE VICTIM" here, and how dare you imply otherwise!

All anyone has to do is link these would-be terrorists with the "By any means necessary" motto of Malcolm X.

Forgive us for not buying it. We don't give a crap. All of our ancestors had it tougher that we did. What are you doing with your life now?

These "terrorists" seem to be a fundamentalist Christian group,including some catholic's,which was a part of something known as the Seeds of David, an off-shoot of Santeria. Peace

teen age liberal no doubt buys into all the bogus victim mentality BS dished out by his likely heroes.

Well, I am part Irish---and many Irish were enslaved by the British. Before that, the Irish used to raid the west coast of Britain to take away children to use as slaves in Ireland.

What, you say?? Slaves that were not black? You betcha, TAL.

Slavery, ugly as it was, occurred pretty much from the dawn of mankind, whether your dawn was at the command of God or at the step up from monkeyhood. One thing about the English/Irish history of slavery is that those slaves were captured by those who imposed slavery upon them, not sold by their own.

Oh, yes, Fakekan and the rest claim that BLACK slavery was "worse" than any other kind. That is, blacks owned by whites. Ever so much worse than blacks owned by blaces---as is going on as we speak, by the way, in Africa.

Just get over it. Civilizations evolve and leave their bad old ways behind. It takes a while, sometimes, but you can look back at any civilization anywhere in the world and you will find things that were accepted then and there that would never be tolerated here and now.

This need to cling desperately to the wrongs of the past, visited upon people long dead, is a true sickness. You'd be much better off taking a hard look at those who are so deeply invested in keeping you down on the plantation, by keeping you afraid of white people, distrustful of white people, and actually hating white people, because keeping you isolated and dependent on them is the only source of their power. And they feed you crap like "Whitey called us Negroes because that word comes from the word necropolis, which means city of the dead, and they use this because they want us all dead". And some of you, desperate for someone to blame for your shortcomings, eat it up with a spoon.

Listen to Ken Hamblin instead of Fakekan for a change, and see what opportunities this country offers to people of all colors, creeds, and backgrounds, if they have the intensity, integrity and simple courage to take advantage of it. And quitcher whinin'. I heard some black woman whining about racism, and her 'proof' of it was that fast food clerks were rude to her. Well, if that's proof of racism, then fast food clerks are equal-opportunity racists, as they are rude to everyone.

If people of any color or ethnicity want respect, they have to earn it by not wallowing in invented victimhood. Because you can't pull a sniveling "poor me" act and expect respect at the same time---it's Either, Or.

very well said, Mark!

TL,

I believe the last time we had someone brought to America as a slave, James Monroe was President...been a while. But if you know any living American slaves, you just let me know and I'll ensure that the 143 year old Emancipation Proclamation is explained to them...

So Steve, is that why one of the "brothers", interviewed by CNN last night, declined to comment when asked if the group was affiliated with AQ? They may have been Christian at one time, but they were later brainwashed into believing in secular Islam. Peace.

OK Kid: Huh? The FBI did not convince them to blow up a building. They were looking for explosives, money, machine guns, etc. and thought the agent was with AQ and could get it for them.

Mark, you can't deny that America has its share of racists(Sean Hannity), sexists(Rush Limbaugh)and homophobes(Rick Santourm),...

Mark, you can't deny that this blog has its share of morons(teenage liberal), idiots(teenage liberal), and window-lickers(teenage liberal)...

"Window-lickers"? Thats a new one...

Home-grown terrorists are nothing new, sadly enough. We had Tim McVey (I don't care enough to spellcheck it right now), the Columbine kids and other school shooters (I consider them terrorists too), Geoffrey Dommer (again, no spellcheck... so sue me), and Charles Manson.

Is this different? Sure... all cases are different. These guys just didn't seem to know what the hell they were doing...

Good to get them off of the streets though... I hope they have fun at OZ.

"Window-lickers"? Thats a new one...

Home-grown terrorists are nothing new, sadly enough. We had Tim McVey (I don't care enough to spellcheck it right now), the Columbine kids and other school shooters (I consider them terrorists too), Geoffrey Dommer (again, no spellcheck... so sue me), and Charles Manson.

Is this different? Sure... all cases are different. These guys just didn't seem to know what the hell they were doing...

Good to get them off of the streets though... I hope they have fun at OZ.

Since 5 of these Muslim terrorists are Americans and since they were attempting to wage war on the USA, I wonder if they will be charged with treason or lesser charges?

Well said, Mark! This point can't be made too often. I hope you post this again in the future.

Almiranta, excellent post. "Just get over it." Amen.

Teenage liberal-"So I guess that whole bringing my ansestors from Africa to become slaves thing was just white people being nice?"-TL

You and everyone else knows that black Africans were sold into slavery. Did you ever stop to think who was doing the selling? In many cases, the answer was other black, Muslim Africans.

Slavery in Islam-"Muslims were enslaving black Africans long before any slave ships sailed for the New World. Muslims were taking and making slaves all over the lands they had conquered. Later, when slave ships were loaded with black slaves, often, a Muslim slave broker had the human cargo all ready to go. The white Southerners rarely had to go into inland to capture slaves, they were already waiting there, courtesy of some Muslim ruler, and/or slave broker! In many cases, if the black slaves were not sent to the New World, they were sent to the Mideast to be enslaved by Arabs, or kept by other black Muslims as slaves."

For the record, slavery was/is awful. It's still practiced in Africa. It's not practiced in America.

"Geoffrey Dommer (again, no spellcheck... so sue me), and Charles Manson."-Georgia Frawg

I wouldn't consider these two to be terrorists. Serial killers yes, terrorists no.

Freedom-

Anyone who would use fear as a tactic for ideological reasons, in my opinion, is a terrorist. Especially mister Manson... He even had a cult.

Well, I stand by my original post on that. But, Manson is freaking scary. He looks like he's demon-possessed. Seriously. (shudder)

Well, I stand by my original post. But, Manson is freaking scary. He looks like he's demon-possessed. Seriously. (shudder!)

I'd agree that Manson was a kind of terrorist but not Dahmer. Dahmer, like Freedom said was a serial killer, like Ted Bundy. I consider a terrrorist someone who targets civilians for (usually political reasons) whatever reason they come up with.

I wonder where teenage liberals admiration for the 618,000 White Americans who died so his ancestors could be free?

I wonder where teenage liberals admiration for the 618,000 White Americans who died so his ancestors could be free?

Please, CJ, teeny-weenie is here for one reason, and it's not to debate issues.

Freedom, while I stand woth you on your outrage with radical Islamofascism, I still must remind you that, if all the world's Muslims were radical Islamists, we'd be dead by now. However, if only one percent of all Muslims are radicals, that's 10 million. Some experts feel the number is higher, and that's alarming.

What bothers me is that the left in Washington ignores the threat, and passes on that ignorance to their supporters. The enemy within is real...

Let's not forget about the pro-life terrorists who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors and nurses, and the eco-terrorists who burn down subdivisions they don't like, or laboratories they don't like, or car lots they don't like. Fortunately, eco-terrorists have gone out of their way to avoid killing people -- so far.

I guess the larger question is this: what does it take to prevent American citizens from feeling disaffected? Is it lack of controversy? I doubt it very much. But I'm sure controversy doesn't help. So, should the free exchange of ideas be suppressed? If so, in what way? What, exactly, are you suggesting, Mark?

Let's not forget about the pro-life terrorists who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors and nurses, and the eco-terrorists who burn down subdivisions they don't like, or laboratories they don't like, or car lots they don't like. Fortunately, eco-terrorists have gone out of their way to avoid killing people -- so far.

I guess the larger question is this: what does it take to prevent American citizens from feeling disaffected? Is it lack of controversy? I doubt it very much. But I'm sure controversy doesn't help. So, should the free exchange of ideas be suppressed? If so, in what way? What, exactly, are you suggesting, Mark?

[i]I wouldn't consider these two to be terrorists. Serial killers yes, terrorists no.[/i]

Manson wasn't even a serial killer. He never killed anyone.

Apparently 6 of these guys were christians and 1 was muslim.

Manson was an FBI/CIA "subject" who was "handled" in ways even he did not fully comprehend until there were too many dead people to explain away. He killed the "hippies" and thought he was killing the "man". Fool. Peace

Why does everything I post show up twice??

Why does everything I post show up twice??

Lol!!

That blue screen has me befuddled.

if you post and get the blue screen, don't repost the same post, or it will show up twice. Your post will make it.

Mark, Matt, this needs fixing. If I wasn't computer illiterate, I'd offer some suggestions. Maybe Barney can help you...

We are at war not with terrorists, but with radical islam.
The "terrorist's" this time happened to be BLACK muslems = terrorists.

Tennie lib
YOUR black ancestors raided their BLACK neighbors and SOLD them into slavery to many different areas, America only being one of many places.
I suggest you immediately leave this terrible racist land and move to samilia, after all it has to be a black paradise, or maybe haiti? congo? etc.

RE: DOUBLE POSTING and server errors.

Expanding a little on keefer's suggestion... "If you post and get the blue screen, don't repost the same post, or it will show up twice. Your post will make it."

Try this also ...

If you are LOGGED IN using TYPEKEY --

If, after you hit "post", you get a B4B Server Error or Blue Screen -- stop! Go back and hit "preview" while still logged in.

After pressing "preview", scroll down and check the last entry at the very bottom of the list comments -- not the one at the top of the page labeled "Previewing your Comment".

If your comment shows up at the end of the list of comments, do not repost. Wait. Your comment will likely magically appear later. Sometimes this takes a few minutes. Sometimes a few hours.

If your comment does not show up as the last comment on the list, wait a few minutes -- 10 minutes or so -- and check "preview" again. If it still does not show up, go ahead and "re-post".

If you are NOT logged in using TYPEKEY -- wait an hour or so to give the person who is screening the posts time to review and post them. Sometimes this takes a few minutes to an hour. Sometimes several hours.

(Those persons reviewing the comments don't spend all of their time sitting their ready to read and clear the next post. They work, eat, sleep, shop, comment, and do other things too... just like the rest of us.)

(NOTE: This is the "simplified" version. I omitted some other checks I make. Occasionally, I still manage to get a double post, but have managed to eliminate most of them!)

Mark, Matt,

Perhaps the above comments might help your administrators find the problem. I can provide a few other observations if you think that might help.

AAR

Ricorun,

Oh, there's nothing to be done about hateful propaganda leading people to evil deeds. Free speech, and all that...unless, I guess, we could prosecute someone for knowingly saying things designed to incite violence (which would be a very difficult thing to do, I'd guess).

People go in to violence for several reasons:

1. They are insane.

2. They are greedy and see violence as a quick means to wealth.

3. They are angry with the system and believe that they cannot work within it.

Manson was Number 1, Al Capone was Number 2, McVeigh was Number 3. Our worry, at present, is with number 3.

To me, it all goes back to the JFK assasination - as detailed in "Death of a President", right after the assasination the word started to spread that "they" had killed him...who are "they"? Well, "they" were the conservative forces of darkness who were upset at the light and freedom JFK, et al were bringing to America. It wasn't claimed, at that time, that Oswald was actually working for someone, but that these forces of darkness had set rolling the hatred which led up to JFK's assasination. Later on, various strange and rather stupid conspiracy theories were woven about this - but it was still always "they" who killed JFK...and "they" did it for various, nefarious reasons. "They" were, in all the different conspiracy theores, attempting to subvert the will of the people as expressed by JFK and institute some sort of baleful rule.

As time marched on these conspiracy theories got admixed with various other false strands of thought - that black people can't get ahead in America; that corporations control everything; that there is a secret society ruling all...all of these theories had in common one thing: America is a fraud. We are not free, there is no way to get free within the system - and only the destruction of the system will free us.

Black Panthers, Weather Underground, AIM...all of these and many others sprang out of these paranoid conspiracy theories about the United States. Con men using them as means to hoodwink people into following them - and doing violence on their behalf. Once you've convinced a man that the system is corrupt and cannot be fixed from within, he'll fall in to one of two camps - the apathetic, and the revolutionary. Most become apathetic...the revoutionaries blow of Federal buildings in Oklahoma City, or murder abortion doctors, or plot to blow up the Sears Tower.

The thread that binds all of those who resort to violence against the system is a lie -there is some lie back in there somewhere (or, very often, a whole series of lies) which has disconnected the purveyors of the violence from the reality of our democratic republic. Lies such as: America is racist/sexist/homophobic; Big Oil runs the country; Israel runs American foreign policy; the Jews control the media....there are, oh, probably scores more such lies, or variations on them which provide the foundation for a violent man.

As I said, there is nothing we can do about the purveyors or lies and hatred - we can only seek to nip the actual violence in the bud...but if we are to eventually suffer major loss because of violent men who believe a lie, then those who spread the lie will bear their share of moral responsibility.

Sorry about all the server errors guys - Matt says it is being worked on.

By the way, I agree with teenage liberal. I believe America IS racist. Just look at abortion in this country.

A black woman is 3 times as likely to have an abortion as a white woman, and considering the founder of Planned Parenthood (in her own words) intentionally put abortion clinics in black communities, it's no surprise. Abortion originated as a form of racial cleansing, and it is today otherwise the statistics wouldn't be what they are.

It's really no surprise though. Democrats have a history of intolerance toward African Americans. While republicans (including Fredrick Douglas and Lincoln) were pushing for the abolition of slavery, the democrats were fighting to keep it! Please, if you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

Rico, given the miniscule number of people killed in anti-abortion clinic bombings, I think it is more of a pro-abortion statement to refer to them. But, having said that, yes---anyone who uses death or the threat of death to advance a cause is a terrorist.

Crux,

Indeed - here is a sample of Sanger's thinking:

Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease. Those vast, complex, interrelated organizations aiming to control and to diminish the spread of misery and destitution and all the menacing evils that spring out of this sinisterly fertile soil, are the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents.......to breed out of the race the scourges of transmissible disease, mental defect, poverty, lawlessness, crime … since these classes would be decreasing in number instead of breeding like weeds....such a plan would … reduce the birthrate among the diseased, the sickly, the poverty stricken and anti-social classes, elements unable to provide for themselves, and the burden of which we are all forced to carry.

Ah, liberalism....

Or this gem:

The minister’s work is also important and he should be trained, perhaps by the Federation as to our ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.

Proud of her, liberals?

Almiranta,

"anyone who uses death or the threat of death to advance a cause is a terrorist"

We are using death to advance democracy, I guess by your definition the US is a terrorist state.

If I may indulge my own opinion on a few of the reasons I see as to the disaffection we see within America.

We are all part of a cult, you may not see it, or smell it, but it's there just the same. The cult we belong to doesn't make us wear funny robes, or purple shoes, infact the cult we belong to has a pretty diverse dress code, but a dress code none the less.

The cult we belong to is the cult of consumerism, it is a pretty benign looking cult, who on its face preaches freedom to choose, and freedom to travel; but the bonds are in those things which are marketed to free us. You can choose, but the only viable choices are Pepsi or Coke, you can travel, but the only destinations are Club Med or the Mall. Our cult icons are 'Friends' or 'Jack Bauer', they are the power Trump wields to crush dreams, while making other's come true, our icons wear thousand dollar dresses, and are fawned over, our icons have shoe deals and their children are diefied before they are even born.

The cult we belong to Says, "Your goal is to attain this level of existence, anything less and you are seen as a failure". This mantra isn't said in those words, but made obvious by the disdain that our society places on the poor. The idea that if you're poor you're cop-ing out, you're less of a person, you can't be working as hard as all the other people who drive the Land Rover, or proudly show their badges of sucess, scrawled with Nike and Tommy, and Coach. We set a level of acceptance for our society, if you don't believe me, then explain why Catholic schools have dress codes which are drab, and frankly, uniform.

The point I am trying to get at, is that the level of "sucess" in America is a bar forever being pushed up by trying to attain what we see on Cribs, or which watch Paris Hilton is wearing this week; it is a level that cannot ever be attained by most people, but we strive for those levels none the less, we smell the cheese, but we don't notice the maze. At some point, some people become discouraged, they become dissapointed in what they percieve is the society leaving them behind, it seems to be working for everyone else, but the harder I try, the more I realize I can't afford the BMW 735, or the retreat house on the beach. We codify the belief that is if you aren't keeping up, it must be your fault, and the only way to get back at the faces on TV, or the percieved level of injustice, is to bring the system down; to show that you can have some level of control, in a seemingly uncontrollable world.

This is only a paraphrase of how I see things. No one is forcing anyone to keep up, no one says you have to posess things to be succesful, but the icons of our cult say otherwise, and while those who don't frame their existance this way, can deny this cult exists, at some point you bought into a sect of this cult, and you found pleasure in that knowing nod at the stop-light when someone else pulls up on a Harley, or you see a stranger with the same shoes as you, you feel justified in your self-worth, since someone else is doing it, it must be worthwhile.

Please don't take this as a justification for violence, but take it as a very small part of the psyche of those who are "disenfranchised" or "left-out", this isn't an explaination for sociopaths, but I think it lends a bit of light to how personalities can be molded to believe that material sucess is the only tangible sucess that this nation admires. I don't think Einstein or Boors would find it easy to get a shoe deal in America, but an 18 year old kid, fresh out of highschool with a 40' verticle mirrors the person we cannot be, while society as a whole ignores the qualities which make a real man/woman.

I think a shift in the way we view our heroes, could go a long way to show that every person, no matter of where they start, can make it to a place that this nation admires, that simple charity is as worthwhile, or even more, than bringing the championship home, or walking away with the Oscar...the day I see the Teacher of the Year award garner ratings on par with the Season Finale of Idol, then I will know we are moving foward, until that time, we will still be fighting a percieved class war, when 80% of us are in the same boat.

LOL you guys are SOOO stupid. I mean seriously, I'll bet you guys think that black people are just less competant at life than white people, that's why they are on the bottom. You'd probably say something like "It was 150 years ago, GET over it!!" and something like "I didn't have any slaves, its got nothing to do with me." Yea, sure, everything is equal, thats why whenever there is a black guy in any situation with me and the police, they let me go and they ask the black guy questions. It isn't equal, and it isn't fair. Black people were held back from developing their own cultural and business establishment for 125 years, while we built our institutions on their sweat. It isn't BS, it isn't complaining, our forefathers were getting law degrees by choice while their worked in fields under penalty of death. Don't ever say that crap about black people not appreciating what America has done for them, America has held them back and put them in a place where they are on the low end of the social spectrum, they are just within the last 50 years being allowed to VOTE.

Mark said: "The thread that binds all of those who resort to violence against the system is a lie -there is some lie back in there somewhere (or, very often, a whole series of lies) which has disconnected the purveyors of the violence from the reality of our democratic republic. Lies such as: America is racist/sexist/homophobic; Big Oil runs the country; Israel runs American foreign policy; the Jews control the media....there are, oh, probably scores more such lies, or variations on them which provide the foundation for a violent man."

I beg to differ. I think the thread that binds all of those that resort to violence (as a means of expression that is, not as a means of fulfilling more deep-seated, personal troubles) is a perceived disenfranchisement -- either in the financial or political domain, or both. To the extent that the reasons for the feelings of disenfranchisement remain perceived (i.e., a lie) rather than actual, the problem remains minimized as much as it can be.

It will never go away, however. To think it will ignores the obvious. If you study any society hard enough you will find examples of individuals, or groups of individuals, acting out in anti-societal ways. In democratic societies the problem tends to be worse. A certain level of chaos is the price we pay for freedom. It's a hard calculus that many don't seem to appreciate. That's the bad news. The good news is that to the extent that a society is truly democratic the problem is self-correcting. In a true democracy (meaning one that has checks and balances in place to prevent anything but a super-majority from trampling on the rights of minorities) there is, after all, always a broadly distributed hope. And hope for a better future is absolutely essential, and the more broadly distributed that hope is the better off we are as a society. Without it, even in a so-called democratic society the ramifications associated with hopelessness become even more eggregious and dangerous the more polarized the society becomes. And if you were to ask me to point to one thing single that exacerbates the polarization of opinion more than any other -- far more, IMHO -- it is the reliance on ad-hominem attacks.

I'm guessing that a few people here don't know what "ad-hominem" means -- it means attacking the messenger rather than the message. It means attempting to denigrate and marginalize the person who says something rather than addressing what that person has to say on the merits of the facts and logic they offer to support their position.

It was once said: "everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts". The idea behind that phrase is that different people may approach an issue from different perspectives, but the more facts and reason you and others bring to bear upon the examination of the issue the more common ground you will ultimately find. They are words I live by, and they are words I find it impossible for anyone who considers themselves to be members of the fact-based community to deny. And the fact that those words were uttered by Patrick Moynihan, a former Democratic Senator of New York, I find irrelevant. But I have to ask... how many were with me until I added that last sentence, exposing the messenger of the message?

Thanks, Crux; I always knew it was the Democrats who were the real racists. Just like Rush says: "The Dems always blame us for doing what they've been doing for years."

Pardon my ignorance but... who is "Sanger"? He/she sounds like a real nut case if the quotes quoted are accurate. Assuming of course that she is contemporary. And the quote on "negroes" doesn't sound very contemporary. Who is this person?

Mark, you have lost your mind.

Ricorun,

Sanger is the founder of Planned Parenthood - she wasn't a nutter in the traditional sense: just another early-20th century proponent of the Master Race...Hitler really wasn't original at all...he just picked up a series of half-backed ideas and threw them togething into a nasty, Nazi stew. Abortion was originally proposed as a eugenic means of breeding out the "inferior" people out there...and, to Sanger, black people were, on the whole, inferior and just got in the way.

That aside,

The sense of disenfranchisement, in America at least, has to come from a lie - there is no one who is barred from full participation in the American Dream. Nothing holds a person down - the only reason anyone has for failure is personal incompetance...even bad luck, which does strike, doesn't hold a person down for long, though it can knock them about a bit.

This is why I say that a lie - or a series of lies - is at bottom in all of the varied stripes of domestic terrorism we have seen.

In a sense, a person can have their own facts - Moniyhan's wisdom notwithstanding: What Moniyhan and most people don't realise is that some people become so wrapped up in the lies that they simply cannot see the truth right in front of them.

Every now and again as I drive through town, I see the Nation of Islam out there on the street corner hustling donations - very well dressed and polite young men asking all and sundry if they'd like to contribute to the cause. Now, the Nation holds that America is an inherently racist nation in which the black man is held down because the white supremacists see his glory and are afraid of the good that the black man will do for the world once unfettered. These solictors are out there - they see people going by; no one is stopping them from collecting money; they can see prosperous black people driving by in expensive cars...they can, in short, see that their entire worldview is false...and yet they continue to believe in it...they have, as it were, selected their own facts, and nothing will drive them off.

People can be induced to believe all sorts of nonsense - think, for instance, how many people actually believe there is something to astrology. It is complete BS from start to finish - a bunch of mindless hocus pocus which no rational person should believe...and yet literal tens of millions of people hardly make a move without consulting the stars.

All lies are harmful - even the astrological ones - but some are more harmful than others. The really harmful ones are those which say this or that group is reponsible for the ills of the world and they must be killed in order for freedom and justice to prevail. We're getting those kinds of likes in truckloads these days...and they are being aided and abetted by some on the left who have taken to propagating such absurdities as "war for oil" and other such nonsense.

Evil will come of it - mark my words.

SUSA,

So I've been told...you have a point?

steve, do you actually think that Santeria is a fundamentalist Christian group?

You guys can't just keep inventing words and definitions and throwing them out there as if they mean something. Well, I guess you HAVE to, if you want to get some cred as a Liberal, but for gosh sakes, don't try it here!

You've just glopped Catholics and "fundamentalist Christians (which to you could mean anyone who reads the Bible or believes in sin..) and Santeria in one category. And you wonder why NO one takes you seriously........

No, Eye, we are NOT "using death to advance democracy". We are using death to discourage or eliminate those who are determined to interfere with the right of people to determine their own government. As President Bush has repeatedly said, the government that evolves in Iraq may not look much like our own----but it will be their government, invented and defined by them, and not imposed upon them.

It is the inaiblity to discern these kinds of differences which most limits the Left.

However, Eye, you have made some history of your own here. You have said some things I can agree with.

I believe that the single element which has done the most to unbalance the world is television. I know you may not have actually said that, but it is a way of agreeing with you.

I grew up in a very poor tenant-farmer family, in a farming community where the "rich" were not really very rich, and were certainly not ostentatious about what they did have. But we had a house to live in, food on the table, clothes to wear, transporation, and education. We knew we didn't have much---our parents were always telling us we couldn't afford things, and we knew we often wore hand-me-downs and ate a lot of peanut butter. But we were happy. While our parents certainly would have liked more economic stability, they were basically happy, too.

But we did not have television telling us that we were the only ones who did not have Rolexes, and fancy cars, and designer handbags. We were not constantly exposed to a way of life that was lavish and ostentatious, without any explanation of where these riches came from, to stir up envy and dissatisfaction.

It's not a matter of ignorance being bliss. It was a matter of not being constantly told that without certain THINGS we could not be happy.

And I look at cultures like the Indians in the Andes, who have a better standard of living than any of their ancestors, yet who flock to the cities to live in abject squalor in cardboard boxes, with water trucks dropping off the minimum amount they need to survive, twice a day. They live lives of filth and squalor and hopelessness, surviving mostly through criminal activities, separate from the spiritual roots of their heritage, without the independence of raising their own food and building their own homes---because even they have been exposed to the concept that EVERYONE ELSE has all these THINGS and there is something wrong with not having them.

Hollywood has spread this pernicious view of life and happiness and not only raised the expectations of people around the world to ridiculous and unattainable levels, but has convinced the world that all Americans are hedonistic, dishonest, conniving, materialistic, adulterous, half-naked, libertines.

Those bells can't be unrung. The damage is done. But right now there are people trying to make important changes. There are people here in the United States trying to get the Andean Indians back to the mountains by going back home to their countries and establishing modern versions of old traditions---taking photos of high-style clothing, for example, that can be made out of luxury fibers and sold here for lots of money. I know a man doing this, with a very high-end clothing store in a resort, who set up his entire business to make it possible for some of the natives of his land to support themselves well, and his efforts now support whole villages who raise sheep and alpacas and llamas, who shear and spin and dye and weave and knit, as they have for centuries, but who now propser doing it. (He met his wife there, working with mentally disabled children who had never received attention before---hardly an Ugly American.)

Like it or not, we are exporting good will and a new attitude toward America by having our soldiers in Iraq, defending freedom, building schools and water treatment plants and so on. I am in the process of putting together school sponsorships, so children will have materials to use in their pursuit of education.

We can set good examples and we can negate some of what has happened. But we have to set personal political animosity aside.

A perfect example: A recent article comparing the lives of people in Alberta vs those in Mexico. The difference: the freedom to have private investors in the oil business in Canada, vs the nationalized oil industry in Mexico. Now, uber-lefties who hate capitalism will fight the idea of making it possible to get rich in Mexico, even if it is the native population realizing the most gain. But in the world we live in, the only way to close the gap between the haves and the have-nots is to give the latter the means to achieve.

Almiranta,

Holy-hand grenandes, I never thought it might happen.

I'm glad we can see eye-to-eye on atleast one point, I feel that a lot of the animosity and misrepresentations of America come from the movies, TV, and music we export, I read a great book a couple years ago about the "branding" of America; it went on to point out that we are not seen for the monumental aid we provide to the world, but for the luxury and wealth we seem to throw in everyones faces. This doesn't excuse the violence, but goes to show how we are seen as the biggest bulls-eye for their own rage of inequity.

You might find the plight of these people interesting, I was pretty upset when I heard about it. It is things such as this, that get no national coverage here, which is why I empathise with many people, when they claim our economic wants don't take into accounts the needs of others...everything is a commodity, to be bought and sold.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33501

On your last point about privitization of resources, I must disagree with your assertion that putting public resources into the hands of corporations, somehow leads to better outcomes.

Explore the negotiated contracts in resource rich countries such as venezuela, prior to the nationalization of them, they were getting pennies on the dollar for their oil, the people were getting shafted, you'd think as the 3rd largest producer of oil in the world, they would have a larger GDP per capita, but instead the cash was funneled into corrupt leaders, and the families who had always ruled that country.

Take a look at Indonesia during the 70's, they got pushed into massive debt loads from IMF loans, and the infrastructure built went to fund the ruling class, while the man on the street got shafted; yet the poor assumed the debt load for these projects.

Look at Panama, prior to Torrijos, the canal-zone was essentially a country within a country, the wealth from the canal went to enrich our corporations, and did nothing for the run of the mill Panamanian, infact look at the entirety of the stay for United Fruit Company in South and Central-America, it's disgraceful.

I don't admonish free-trade (when it's fair), or capitalism, or privitization, but rarely is the best interest of the people who will live under the decisions and ramifications of those companies, taken into account. Setting mutually beneficial contracts, to where the underclasses in these countries reap the benefits of the resources and productions they and their lands give, is the goal I think the US should be chasing, not what is most beneficial for the bottom-line of a multi-national.

In post-industrial societies violence is no longer required and should play no part in bringing down any government. The lack of cooperation expressed by the body politic will be enough. As in boycott BP Oil. Peace

"Freedom, while I stand woth you on your outrage with radical Islamofascism, I still must remind you that, if all the world's Muslims were radical Islamists, we'd be dead by now."-keefer

Actually, I never said that. I never said it because I don't believe it. For the record: There are Moderate Muslims but there is NO moderate Islam. Islam is an inherently violent ideology.

"Manson wasn't even a serial killer. He never killed anyone." Posted by: Jon parker

I stand corrected. Manson was the master-mind of several brutal murders not apparently the actual killer.

Mark said: "Hitler really wasn't original at all...he just picked up a series of half-backed ideas and threw them togething into a nasty, Nazi stew."

Exactly. About the only thing original about Nazism was the close association between government and big business. Most everything else was secondary, and predicated upon scapegoatism. The latter is the case with any totalitarian regime you could name, be it nominally left or right. It's a very important distinction.

Mark said further: "to Sanger, black people were, on the whole, inferior and just got in the way."

Again exactly. Sometimes I really am as dumb as I appear. Other times, not so much. So let that sink in a bit -- both what I said and what she said. And in the end, see if you can't hear the sound of one hand clapping.

Mark said even further: "Every now and again as I drive through town, I see the Nation of Islam out there on the street corner hustling donations - very well dressed and polite young men asking all and sundry if they'd like to contribute to the cause. Now, the Nation holds that America is an inherently racist nation in which the black man is held down because the white supremacists see his glory and are afraid of the good that the black man will do for the world once unfettered."

I'm guessing they don't bother to show up at your door. They don't show up at mine, either. Then again, I currently live in a community that could be accurately described as a loaf of Sunbeam white bread -- not exactly healthy, but at least homogenous, lol! But I didn't always. When in LA I lived in a highly heterogenous neighborhood -- lots of blacks, Jews, latinos, Sikhs, Arabs, Hindis, Vietnamese, and who knows what else. When in LA the Nation of Islam would visit me all the time. Perhaps it was because I was the only white guy in the complex. Anyway, I'd invite them in for a glass of fruit juice and to talk. Early on one of them acknowledged that he had never been in a white guy's home before, and admitted that he didn't like most white people. I admitted to him that I didn't like most of them myself, lol! But there was a difference between tolerating them on the one hand, and accepting them on the other. And if you get through that you might find one or two that you might actually, genuinely like. Ultimately, I told him, people are people. And in order to really know people you have to get past their appearance and concentrate on what they had to offer from their heart. I don't know if it did any good, and I am certain that whatever contribution I made was not decisive. But what I do know is that our immediate neighborhood suffered no damage in the riots that followed the Rodney King verdict -- that in spite of the fact that some areas north, south, east, and west of us were burned to the ground.

A couple of days after the riots that same guy came by and apologized for what happened. Obviously, it wasn't his fault, and I told him so. He thanked me. I guess he kind of assumed that I would convolve him into my feelings about what happened. But I didn't. I told him I thought he was a stand-up guy. It wasn't about black or white, it was about people, and justice, and it was a shame that some people couldn't see through a person's skin color to see what was in their heart. He also told me that I was the first white guy he ever really, genuinely liked. Of all my personal experiences, that is the one that remains most poignant.

Yes, the "really harmful [lies] are those which say this or that group is reponsible for the ills of the world and they must be killed in order for freedom and justice to prevail."

I only hope that you are able to put your heart where your mouth is, Mark -- and do what you can, in your exalted position as leader of a seminal blog, to get people to follow suit.

"To state with clarity: America is not a racist nation;"

On a whole, it is not. But it is filled (as are probably all nations) with racist people. And the large part of these people, I would guess, come from the Red States. Heck, you even elect some of them into office. See: Thurmond, Strom; Lott, Trent. Or, - Dubya's own mother on the (predominately black) Katrina victims: "What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them." Priceless.

Mark also says, "President Bush is not a terrorist;"

No, he is not. But he illegally/immorally invaded and continutes to occupy a country because ... well, what reason are the neo-cons on now for justification?

"the American military does not wantonly kill non-combatants; America's military and intelligence forces do not torture captives;"

Hmm, I should be careful here. Mark gets a bit upset and will censor posts if you actually criticize the military. For the killing of non-combatants: see the recently filed charges against those boys - doesn't look good. As for the torture, two more words: Abu Ghraib.

"we are not fighting for oil, or Likud, or Israel, or Halliburton, or what have you;"

Halliburton (and Dr Evil) have done pretty well off the war, even you must admit that. Israel is an ally - but I'd like to see them step up to the plate on Iran. As for the oil - well, maybe not. After all, we were supposed to be fighthing to rid Iraq of those WMDs. Only problem - he didn't have them anymore, no matter how hard you wingnuts try to convince yourselves otherwise.

"the enemy is entirely cruel and evil and must be destroyed."

I think everyone agrees on this point. However, what has not been defined is - who, exactly, is the enemy? And how do you go about destroying it - by just invading any *ole* country on a whim, if we think they are a danger? This is where the debate must begin now.

maf53

'who, exactly, is the enemy?'

I agree, it was not the good people of Iraq. Saddam was an evil leader who needed to go, but you don't hurt the innocent victims who suffered under his despotic rule, in order to do that.

Hope we will not hear anymore BS about how war is hell and there will always be civilian casualties.
Enough already. This is a war that did not need to happen.

Mark is a Psychopathic Personality. He doesn't care about anything but himself.

He is not like us.

He doesn't have any empathy.

He doesn't think like us. Because we care about what is going on in the world. He does not posses the ability to care.

If you want to understand Mark, read about the Psychopathic Personality. And find out how dangerous these people are.

"Israel is an ally - but I'd like to see them step up to the plate on Iran."-maf53

What exactly do you want Israel to do? Negotiate with Iran? (laughs) Pre-emptive military strike on Iran's nuclear facilities? Other?

Try Option #2.

If someone is going to pre-emptively strike Iran, let it be Israel, not us.

Susa,

And what makes you diagnose me that way?

Ricorun,

I suppose they could - of all the places I've lived, Las Vegas is the least racially conscious city I've ever seen...the number of mixed race couples in this town is quite large, and no one gives a darn about it. We're all jumbled together here...

The problem, though, is that you can't really get at someone who believes a lie - have you ever, for instance, tried to explain to someone who believe in astrology that its a crock? Good luck with such a project. Now, for the really big lies out there - America is racist, Bush is a terrorist, Americans torture captives - it is even more difficult to change minds by argument.

Partially this is because of ignorance - so many people are so entirely uninformed about the basics of their nations history that all manner of nonsense can pass unchallenged...it only has to sound true, as it were. The other part of it is, I think, the unwillingness of people to retreat once they've staked out a position. If you've boldly stated that the war is for Halliburton, then you're going to cling to that with desperation rather than admit to a really, really stupid error.

Canadian,

Ah, but it did - if 9/11 had never happened, it still would have been necessary to liberate Iraq...this was recognised as early as 1998 when the US Congress passed, and then-President Clinton signed, an act enjoining us to seek regime change, by whatever means necessary, in Iraq.

Saddam's Iraq was the lynchpin and the strategic center of gravity in the Islamo-fascist network - there are many shadings of Islamo-fascism, but they are bound by one over-arching thing in common: they hate us for what we are, not for what we do. Our very existence is an affront to them, and they want us all dead.

It was go in now, or go in later - but go in we must.

"I agree, it was not the good people of Iraq. Saddam was an evil leader who needed to go, but you don't hurt the innocent victims who suffered under his despotic rule, in order to do that."

That's great Canadian Observer. Maybe if we has just asked Saddam to leave he would have done that?

LOL. You libs. You're ideas are great, we all agree we don't want civilians to die. Then along comes this thing called reality. On one hand you say Saddam was evil and needed to go, but somewhat you want to magically click your ruby slippers and make it happen without any casualties.

Good luck getting that accomplished.

Mark doesn't even knows why they hate us!

Mark, you said:

if 9/11 had never happened, it still would have been necessary to liberate Iraq..

What gives the US the right to determine what happens in other world nations? Who put you in charge?

It's time to take care of your own problems at home. Spend the money to help clean up the poverty & suffering experienced by Americans.

Mark said: "have you ever, for instance, tried to explain to someone who believe in astrology that its a crock?"

Actually yes. Once, a long time ago. The short term results weren't very promising, that's for sure. I don't know about the long term results because I lost touch with the person.

Likewise, I've tried to explain why Intelligent Design is a tautology and why its only possible role in a science classroom is as an example of a bad theory.

But hey, I've made quite a bit of money on my Halliburton stock. I bought it in late March, 2003, right after the invasion because well, you had to be pretty much brain dead not to see the handwriting on the wall. It's taken a dive recently, but it's still trading well over three times what I paid for it.

I don’t believe there was a terrorist plot against the Sears Tower.
In 2003 we were told that Chicagoan Jose Padilla was planning on exploding a dirty nuke in the U.S.; but when it came time to prove their charges the U.S. did not have anything except financially supporting a terrorist organization; this from a man who could not finance a car loan.

Now the U.S. expects us to believe that unarmed theological students were in the planning stages of a Chicago-style 9/11? This sounds more like a Republican ploy to ratchet up the Fear-O-Meter in time for the next elections and justify the illegal data mining by the NSA and infiltration of anti-war groups by the FBI.

By the way, I thought the latest reason Bush gave for invading Iraq was to take the war over there so we won’t have to fight it here. These guys ought to get their signals straight.

Ha Ha!

Canadian,

What gives you the right NOT to intervene when your brothers and sisters are suffering? Is your comfort and safety more important than the fact that your brothers and sisters in other lands are being brutalized by evil men? Since when is cowardice in the face of evil a virtue?

You are your brother's keeper, Canadian...you can block your ears against the groans of the suffering and you can try to wall yourself in, but the world will come and get you, if you don't come and help it - and helping it sometimes means having to actually fight the wicked.

It was and is America's duty to be in Iraq because it is the best means possible of briging relief to the poor people of the middle east who labor under various tyrannies.

Ricorun,

I'll put up and ID post later, so we can have that out.

Mark

When do you think the Iraqi people will no longer be suffering? Since the shock & awe bombing, the invasion and the occupation, 50,000 Iraqi citizens have died and continue to die violent deaths each and every day that your military is there. So tell me, Mark, when will their suffering end?

I have no idea how you can justify this war with the teachings of Christ.

C.O....do you think Christ was advocate sitting by while a dictator killed almost a million of his people?

If the tradeoff is to take a guy out that killed almost a million in exchange for 50,000 dead would you take it?

There are people that still scream about the two A-Bombs we dropped. Tremendous death toll, but how many lives were SAVED as a result.

C.O....are you capable of looking long term? Are you capable of potentially looking at a Democratic Iraq and what that could mean for the entire region. A free Palestine perhaps. A Democratic Iran, etc, etc. Let's not forget that Democracies were in short supply 100 years ago but slowly came about throughout much of the world except the Middle East. How do you know this won't happen here.

Have a vision C.O....I know it's almost impossible for you liberals to do that. It's not in your genes.

Civilizations evolve and leave their bad old ways behind. It takes a while, sometimes, but you can look back at any civilization anywhere in the world and you will find things that were accepted then and there that would never be tolerated here and now.

Yeah, the process takes even longer when you have conservatives refusing to be enlightened. It's a real drag on progress.

Yeah...you're right, we just don't want to be enlightened. Or maybe it's that we want to hang on to what is still moral and good about the world.