what else could we expect from an enemy who intentionally blows-up children gathered to get candy?

unfortunately our guys might as well fight to the death rather than be captured.

aint like putting panties on detainees heads, is it?

Mark, I agree with you 100% on this issue(a rare event). But forget about the goal to reform Islam, I think it has too large a fanatical base. Other than the extreme solution to cull them(they must number in the millions counting both the active and supporting cast) from the face of the earth, I don't have any suggestion on how to deal successfully with this. Other than 'keep on truckin'

"reform the Arab/Muslim world"??
oh, yes, you've been doing a great job:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1090904.ece

Fire up the gas chambers!

Oh yeah, we're going to cut and paste the pro terrorist Independent. What a joke!

Strip away all the BS, all the emotionalism, all the politics and there are only a couple of solutions.

1 Islam reforms itself in a way that realisticly seems impossible.

2 Isolate the Middle East...no one from there comes here and we do not tolerate ANY islamic nonsense here. Deport if they look funny. If they live in "fear" here...those are the breaks...dont like it, go home.

3 Destroy them to the point they are broken. Difficult unless we are willing to commit a limited form of genocide.

What we have is a sh** sandwich, we just need to figure what side we chew on. No matter what we do its going to taste bad. The prob I see with most libs is they want the 30 minute painless Leave it to Beaver solution...it doesnt exist. They deny the existance of the fundemental problem. Islam is a classic case of "Johnny doesnt play well with others" and culturally/socially they seem incapable of the self examination that is necessary to change. Remember these are people that kill over cartoons.

Absolutely! Our torture is much more refined, almost artistic you might say. Such raw emotions as they displayed have no place in a modern, humane, American torture chamber. We need to educate these savages on the proper etiquette of turture. Maybe a new Geneva Convention on which torture techniques are acceptable & which are not, along with some classes taught by our professors from Gitmo? Some textbooks at the very least, I think.

"Absolutely! Our torture is much more refined,"

I sure its very nice on your planet "Moral Equvilance". What torture have we commited that fires up your rightous moral indignation. Please be specific as most rational folks are able to discerne the difference.

Amen! Naive Americans, including the moonbats that frequent your website, need to wake up and get educated about this "religion of death that is Islam."

Zoot,

I have been very concerned with this very point: "How do we convince the wider Muslim world that the answer isn't violence?"

It's a tough point to make in a part of the world that is still mainly dependant on substinance survival or international aid.

We need to figure out how to make the institutions like the World Bank and IMF work to bolster local business and Pan-Arab trade pacts.

IMO, the rub comes in the form of religion, we can't underestimate the force that Islam holds in their lives, but the one answer that always seems to soothe the savage beast is protection of ones goods. If we can help to foster dialogue, and raise up the moderate ME imams, get their ideas on par with the radicals, and help them to debate these issues, we can begin to sew a moderate middle-class. We know it can be done, we have seen it in places such as Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan, within our lifetimes. We have seen how the moderate muslim can overcome the radical, mainly poor sects of the radicals. It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region, but keep the flow of petro-cash out of the hands of the corrupt governments that flourish in the vacuum that exists now.

Admitantly, its a tough road to hoe, but the other option is an endless war of civilizations, and the prospect of unleashing a pandoras box of radical terrorists, and isolating our friends in europe, we can't split the earth in two, telling them to stay on their side and we will stay on ours; and we can't engage in genocide of anykind...so where does that leave us?

Beth,

Your hood is slipping, you might wanna get that fixed

i prefer the Al-Zarqawi method of terrorist negotiation...drop a few 500lb. suggestions on them, then see what they have to say after that.

i prefer the al Zarqawi method of terrorist negotiation...drop a few 500lb suggestions on them, then simply wait for their reply.

observer - why in the world would u wanna gas the mutilated remains of those 2 dead servicemembers? Oh, ahh...u meant their fellow GI's, right(?) or was it their family members?

scalefree - forgettin to put the special sauce on ur big mac aint torture.

gosh martha, them lefties do have pointy heads under them there tin-foil hats.

TEO

I'm a bit suprised to be saying this but I mostly agree with your statement. However I would like to address a couple of your points and ask a couple of genuine questions.

"If we can help to foster dialogue"

So far if past history is any guide, and I believe it is one of the best, Islamisists use dialouge as a disingenious way of flanking their opponent and are rarely sincere about it. Its a cultural thing. My grandfather always told me "dont believe what someone says, watch what they do" and in that respect the Muslim world fails badly. The koran itself advises that to lie to an adversary is appropriate.

"raise up the moderate ME imams"

It seems that if a moderate has the courage to raise his voice he does not live long. There is absolutly nothing that we can do about that. Personally I dont believe that there are many moderates but would wholeheartedly support one if he spoke up. I read the translations from the Friday sermons out of the Grand mosque and others in SA..etc.. and there is nothing moderate about them. Where we differ is that I just dont think its possible for that to happen even close to the degree necessary irrespective of Iraq or not.

"have seen it in places such as Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan, within our lifetimes."

I sincerly believe the only reason there are any moderates able to speak in Iraq or Afganistan is because were there. Certainly during the Taliban they wernt tolerated and the brutality under Sadam although not religious is not in question. Iran does have its protesters but they, as the Iraqis under Sadam, have no real chance against the government.

"We have seen how the moderate muslim can overcome the radical"

Where would you consider this has happened to the degree necessary for us to coexist?

"It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region"

How do we accomplish this without a large and controlling military presence in the region?

"keep the flow of petro-cash out of the hands of the corrupt governments that flourish in the vacuum that exists now."

As in ANY point in history governments and big money are always going to do what they percieve is in their best interest. This is proven throughtout the history of man. It may be immoral or not but that is the way it is. It was no different for the Greeks, the Romans, etc. As tragic as it is I dont see how wanting/expecting/wishing/yelling..etc it was different is going to change it. I dont like it but reality dictates we learn to work around it.

"Admitantly, its a tough road to hoe"

Agreed, where we may differ is I dont think its possible..preferable yes, possible no.

"the prospect of unleashing a pandoras box of radical terrorists"

I cant let the threat of that be the deciding factor in my position. At some point you have to take a stand regardless. As I recall we were told by some that invading Afganistan would do it... nope, pretty much that same old group. In Iraq, nope once again same group. No way will I believe that a truly moderate muslim is going to blow up women, children, other muslims because of that. The people doing it were the ones that it was acceptable to all along. Has it caused a few more to radicalize, probably so, but not in huge numbers and the ones that did certainly werent moderate before.

"isolating our friends in europe"

I lived in Europe for several years. They are not our friends, sure there are folks that support us but make no mistake they like any other people operate in their own best interest as they see fit. That said they have created for themselves a mess of huge porportions with the Multicutural nonsense taken to a ridiculous point. Point to one multicultural country that hasnt effectivly assimilated immigrants that works. I personally dont know of any.

"and we can't engage in genocide of anykind"

I agree that it would be a terrible thing to HAVE to do. But at what point does it become us or them. Reasonable people can disagree about where that point is but make no mistake it must be out there somewhere unless your willing to hand over the keys without a fight. I for one am not. The one thing history (which I have read a lot of) teaches is that being on the losing side of any global/cultural/economic fight is no fun for the losers. I have children and ultimately I must chose to win, no matter what..I have no other choice. Sometimes difficult and horrible decisions need to be made and I'm afraid that absent an Islamic reformation of drastic porportion on a timescale that doesnt seem posible this may be one of those times.

"so where does that leave us?"

Refer to the sh** sandwich comment. History rarely gives you the luxurey of having it your way. I know the left doesnt want it to be this way and if your fair neither does the right. We difer in our appraisal of the realistically available options. If it was still 60 years ago we could ignore them but due to the paradigm shift brought about by technolgies, ease of travel and radicalized islam we do so at our own peril.

I appreciated your response and have tried to respond in a sincere and honest manner. I wish we all could do that a bit more.

Zoot,

I'll try to keep my responses short, so I don't make this into a novel by the time the thread is gone.

1. I don't like painting every muslim with the brush of the Koran, dissected and un-contextualized, I don't want to make this into a fight about religion, but i'm sure I can find a few choice quotes advocating just about anything in the Bible. For starters, take a listen to the US ambassador from the PLO, he is one of the most lucid, intelligent men I have ever heard, and despite the organisation he sits in front of, he is very moderate, and makes very good points for and against the current arab/muslim realities.

2. First thing first, don't equate SA Islam, with the whole of islam, there are some pretty moderate guys out there; you can check out Juan Cole's listing of Imams who discounted OBL, and you can follow their teachings, some of them are still pretty unfriendly, but for the most part they do have a fairly cool-headed view of the situation, it's people like this we need to be raising up.

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

3. Take a look at the wider ME of the 60's, before the petro-cash was rolling in, there was flourishing middle-classes in Baghdad, Kabul, and Tehran. The revolutions and unrest has driven the intellectuals out of these places, but it's been shown that even after a violent British occupation of the ME, that moderates can exist, we need to figure out how to bring about those realities again.

I believe, if we can take the wind out of the sails of the Israeli/Pelestinian conflict, that would be a huge boost to the moderate communities. We need to figure out how to foster the arab business, how to make them see that they don't have to play second fiddle to a powerful west, just so long as they keep their business to themselves. We have made it way too easy to hate the west, they can lay all sorts of blame at our feet, mainly because they keep getting pictures of starving children in Palestine, and a regional super-power in Israel, backed by the world hyper-power; I don't know that this would solve everything, but it gives us a leverage point with which to undercut radical talking points.

4. Take a look at who are the radical converts, they aren't the poor, as you would assume, they are the young, male, middle-class. They are mostly from SA, or come from Wahhabi influenced schools. So I think the easiest way to shut down the schools, is to give SA some tough love. Ofcourse we both knbow this isn't going to happen, for many reasons, but I guarantee that SA is in no hurry to put their own necks too far out, so that their own home grown terrorists can chop it off.

5. Stop making multiculturalism the whipping boy, for plain old racism that still exists in Europe. Hell they still hate the Jews. It isn't that the mechanism isn't right, but that the people still haven't opened up to the new idea, give it a generation and you will find the immersion a bit more promising, sans a backpeddling by EU nations. Please don't take my response to mean that there aren't agitators, but for every angry, radical Imam in France, there are 10 moderate ones in UK or Sweden. Look we ended slavery in the 1860s, and it took a hundred years for Jim Crow laws to be abolished, and another 20 for the black middle class to show signs of flourishing; take that example for what you will, but i think it mirrors the problems in Europe fairly well.

6. Your point about genocide, I have trouble even taking seriously; let me just say that protecting ones homeland, family, and friends, is worlds of different than a concerted effort to cleanse a billion people.

7. I agree, we are all gonna take a bite from this sh*t Sammich, but I see a glimmer of hope here, I think we can avoid a war of cultures, i think we have to, because otherwise, you're going to find a nation like Pakistan falling victim to another coup, and who knows where their nukes are going to end up then.

I think we have a moment in history here to step back, and hit the corrupt leaders of the ME where it hurts, in their wallets. We need to channel our collective smarts towards divising a clean, cheap, and renewable energy source, and get our asses out of the ME, when the barrel of oil drops back to $9, we will see these folks either kill themselves off, or find a way to co-exist, let China and India fight for their good graces.

But what do I know?

TEO

1. "I don't like painting every muslim with the brush of the Koran, dissected and un-contextualized,"

I dont believe I did but the book speaks for itself.

"ambassador from the PLO, he is one of the most lucid, intelligent men I have ever heard, and despite the organisation he sits in front of, he is very moderate"

As ambassador thats his job and I quit believing politicians at face value a long time ago. He may very well be moderate but rather than listening to what a politician says I'll reserve judgement and watch what they do and what policies he defends. I assume your familiar with the concept of a Hunda.

2. "First thing first, don't equate SA Islam, with the whole of islam"

I never did. Please dont use strawmen it doesnt further valid discussion. Despite what Cole says I dont only listen to what these imans say to the english audience but what they say to arab audiences. The two vary greatly and the rethortic to arab folks is generally agressive and intolerant.

3. "3. The whole comment"

If you think the petro dollars only started rolling after the 60's please do some research. As unwise and unfair as the Europeans(I know the British were predominant) presence was it was their presense that allowed the "intellectuals and moderates" to exist. They did not exist in spite of them but in a large way because of them. The revolutions you speak of that drove them out were fundementaly islamic based.

There is no doubt that the Pal/Israeli conflict is used as an excuse but as long as the Pali's and arabs in general bombard their population with the virulent and violent propaganda that I have seen many times they will always play second fiddle to the west. The fact that they incorrectly and ignorantly lay the blame at our feet rather than their failed society and leaders is unfortunate but I refuse to have "white mans guilt" over it. As I said before they lack the social/cultural ability to effectively examine their own failings and place the blame where it mostly belongs...on their own doorstep. As Nietzsche says "Against ignorance the gods themselves struggle in vain."

4. I'm not really sure what point your addressing. You say the easiest thing to stop radicalization is shutting down the schools but then later say it wont happen so the point is a moot one. Agreed the Saudis have a tiger by the tail.

5. "Stop making multiculturalism the whipping boy"

Once again I didnt but I stand by my assertion "Point to one multicultural country that hasnt effectivly assimilated immigrants that works." Can you show one yes or no?

"but for every angry, radical Imam in France, there are 10 moderate ones in UK or Sweden."

Your source or personal experience for this assertion is what? Its funny you pick the UK which had the bombing and Sweden which is having a terrible time with muslims that wont and dont want to assmilate. I have no idea what the ratio is but one radical iman in my country is one too many. There is no moral obligation to tolerate it whatsoever.

"it took a hundred years for Jim Crow laws to be abolished, and another 20 for the black middle class"

I understand that change takes time but your simile breaks down quickly. I dont recall any stories about blacks blowing up women and children while shouting Praise the Lord. As well the paradigm has changed. It wasnt possible radical group to kill hundreds of people with a suitcase in 1860 much less even in 1960. We dont have a hundred years to wait.

6. "different than a concerted effort to cleanse a billion people."

Why do you feel the need to once again misrepresent my position? I said in my orginal post "Destroy them to the point they are broken. Difficult unless we are willing to commit a LIMITED form of genocide." Where did I call for, as you dramatically put it, "concerted effort to cleanse a billion people." you cheapen your position by resorting to over the top invective.

Realistically to break them as a culture would inevitably result in a large loss of life with no way to protect the innocent. Is there any point, any provacation in a conflict that you would feel justifies a, for lack of a better term, maximum response?

7. "I think we can avoid a war of cultures"

Thats where we differ...I dont. I'd like to but as I said before I dont think history is going to afford us that luxury.

" think we have a moment in history here to step back, and hit the corrupt leaders of the ME where it hurts, in their wallets."

These are people that already have Billions of dollars in their pockets. Do you really believe we have the ability to "hurt" them. Even if everything collapsed into chaos they will live well. Fair...not at all but that is the way it is and always has been. Theres a saying something like "When the elephants dance the grass gets trampled"

"We need to channel our collective smarts towards divising a clean, cheap, and renewable energy source"

Agree wholeheartedly.

I have tried to answer your post as civily as possible and respond to your points. However I cant help but notice you didnt respond to several of mine and didnt answer the 2 questions I posed.

"We have seen how the moderate muslim can overcome the radical"

Where would you consider this has happened to the degree necessary for us to coexist?

"It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region"

How do we accomplish this without a large and controlling military presence in the region?

I'm still interested in hearing your answers.

Beth,

Your hood is slipping, you might wanna get that fixed

Posted by: Third Eye Open

Beth is right. TEO, are you totally ignorant of Islam's racism towards Jews and Blacks or do you approve of Islam's racism?

Just today, Jonathan R. over at GOPBloggers points out Islam's racism against Jews, "but, then again, the dehumanization of Jews (and Christians, for that matter) inherent in Islam is the biggest problem in the world today."

from the MEMRI.org link above:

Islamic Religious Sources on the Jews - The 'Descendants of Apes and Pigs'

The divine punishment of Jews is mentioned in three Koranic verses: "... They are those whom Allah has cast aside and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made some as apes and swine..." (5:60); "...You have surely known the end of those from amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath, in consequence of which we condemned them: Be ye like apes, despised" (2:65);[13] and "when, instead of amending, they became more persistent in the pursuit of that which they were forbidden, we condemned them: Be ye as apes, despised" (7:166).

Islam's racism against blacks:

Qur’an 9:61 “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

As for what we should do about the religion of death aka Islam, America should outlaw Islam on the grounds that it is a violent terrorist ideology and deport those who refuse to give up Islam.

Beth,

Your hood is slipping, you might wanna get that fixed

Posted by: Third Eye Open

Beth is right. TEO, are you totally ignorant of Islam's racism towards Jews and Blacks or do you approve of Islam's racism?

Just today, Jonathan R. over at GOPBloggers points out Islam's racism against Jews, "but, then again, the dehumanization of Jews (and Christians, for that matter) inherent in Islam is the biggest problem in the world today."

from the MEMRI.org link above:

Islamic Religious Sources on the Jews - The 'Descendants of Apes and Pigs'

The divine punishment of Jews is mentioned in three Koranic verses: "... They are those whom Allah has cast aside and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made some as apes and swine..." (5:60); "...You have surely known the end of those from amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath, in consequence of which we condemned them: Be ye like apes, despised" (2:65);[13] and "when, instead of amending, they became more persistent in the pursuit of that which they were forbidden, we condemned them: Be ye as apes, despised" (7:166).

Islam's racism against blacks:

Qur’an 9:61 “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

As for what we should do about the religion of death aka Islam, America should outlaw Islam on the grounds that it is a violent terrorist ideology and deport those who refuse to give up Islam.

Freedom1,

Your idiocy astounds me.

First off, both arabs and jews are semitic peoples, so to hate the jews, would be to hate themselves.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

--Try focusing on the issue at hand, not your little crusade to demonize anyone who doesn't believe in your incarnation of God(s).

Never forget that more death and destruction has been waged on this earth in the name of Christianity, than any other religion in history.

TEO-

Islam is probably catching up to Christianity in that respect. Remember that Christianity had about a 500 year head start. Religions tend to moderate themselves after a while (notice that christians no longer burn witches and blasphemers at the stake and that Jews no longer stone people who dare speak the lord's name). Islam needs time, but maybe a few "500 pound suggestions" could help move the process along (you mess with us... boom) more quickly.

Anybody who kills another in cold blood deserves harsh punishment, but we can't ban Islam (a little something called the 1st Amendment gets in the way).

Georgia,

2000 years in the grand scheme of things is nothing but a blip on the radar, 500 years is a heartbeat, and 60 years since Hitler razed Europe, flying the banner of Christianity as his justification for horrible acts, has been a hair's width away.

I am not saying that Christinaity should be held responsible for previous people's horrible intent, but this obvious hatred and fear of Islam is how things like the "night of broken glass" get started, a fear of something you aren't familiar with, being stoked by those who have an agenda which would benefit from that fear.

"Anybody who kills another in cold blood deserves harsh punishment, but we can't ban Islam (a little something called the 1st Amendment gets in the way)."

Posted by: Georgia Frawg

We can and we must. The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, too. Yet, it's illegal to yell, "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. Why? Because people are likely to get hurt. Islam is a vicious terrorist ideology whose purpose is world domination and subjugation. Look up to the article again.

TEO,

"First off, both arabs and jews are semitic peoples, so to hate the jews, would be to hate themselves."-TEO

Bwahaha! TEO YOUR idiocy astounds me! Muslims are not just Arabs, moron. Indonesia is the most populous Muslim nation in the world. Did you even read the Qur'an quotes about Jews being the descendants of apes and swine?? I guess you just skip over the parts you don't like. Also, anyone who makes a moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity has absolutely no clue about either one. Talk about ignorance!

Hamas: Islam Will Conquer US and Britain

LGF-"From Palestinian Media Watch, a video posted at a Hamas web site shows terrorist leader Yasser Ghalban, killed last week by Palestinians in internal fighting, talking about the wider Palestinian Islamic ideology: to conquer and subjugate the world under Islam."

Video transcript:

"We will rule the nations, by Allah’s will, the USA will be conquered, Israel will be conquered, Rome and Britain will be conquered...

The Jihad for Allah... is the way of Truth and the way for Salvation and the way which will lead us to crush the Jews and expel them from our country Palestine.

Just as the Jews ran from Gaza, the Americans will run from Iraq and Afghanistan and the Russians will run from Chechnya, and the Indian will run from Kashmir, and our children will be released from Guantanamo.

The prisoners will be released by Allah’s will, not by peaceful means and not by agreements, but they will be released by the sword, they will be released by the gun."

TEO says,

"this obvious hatred and fear of Islam is how things like the "night of broken glass" get started, a fear of something you aren't familiar with"

A quote from Yasser Ghalbanof of Hamas, killed last week by Palestinians in internal fighting.

" We will rule the nations, by Allah’s will, the USA will be conquered, Israel will be conquered, Rome and Britain will be conquered...

The Jihad for Allah... is the way of Truth and the way for Salvation and the way which will lead us to crush the Jews and expel them from our country Palestine.

Just as the Jews ran from Gaza, the Americans will run from Iraq and Afghanistan and the Russians will run from Chechnya, and the Indian will run from Kashmir, and our children will be released from Guantanamo.

The prisoners will be released by Allah’s will, not by peaceful means and not by agreements, but they will be released by the sword, they will be released by the gun."

Quotes like this are too numerous to catalog. To claim our concerns are nothing more than a fear of unfamiliarity is a complete break with reality. If you truly believe this it explains a lot about the contradictory positions you seem to take.

So your point is there is nothing to fear...that Islam is a benign force? Earlier you said "the prospect of unleashing a pandoras box of radical terrorists". A pandoras box doesnt just spring out of a vacuum. So which is it a "pandoras box" or "a fear of something you aren't familiar with"?

This is why you get so much grief, your positions when examined are often seem contradictory and deconstructing them not too difficult.

I realize you have no obligation to answer but you have ignored several of the points in my previous posts as well as the direct questions. I have been respectful and not engaged in the name calling that happens all too often(although not to me yet). I have asked clearly stated and valid questions that received no response. I realize my posts were long but as this is a complex issue I have tried to be as brief as possible and still represent my position accurately.

To all others...sorry about the novels but I'm trying to get a relevant dialouge. Maybe its not possible.

Freedom1,

And there are christian leaders asking their flock to pray for the death of SCOTUS justices and democratically elected leaders. Does that mean we can equate every nutball, in any religion with the whole religion?

Quit picking and choosing your talking points, and put your hood back on, I don't wanna see your face.

Freedom beat me to the quote...oh well.

TEO you also said "for every angry, radical Imam in France, there are 10 moderate ones in UK or Sweden."

How do you reconcile that unsubstantiated statement with these events. The example from Sweden is but one of many that can be easily found.

The poll, by the Washington-based Pew Global Attitudes Project, asked Muslims and non-Muslims about each other in 13 countries. The poll found that British Muslims represented a “notable exception” in Europe, with far more negative views of westerners than Islamic minorities elsewhere on the continent. A significant majority viewed western populations as selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral. Just over half said westerners were violent. (Talk about a reality disconnect)

Another startling result found that only 32% of Muslims in Britain had a favourable opinion of Jews, compared with 71% of French Muslims.

Immigrants are “waging war” against Swedes through robbery

The wave of robberies the city of Malmö has witnessed during this past year is part of a “war against the Swedes.” This is the explanation given by young robbers from immigrant backgrounds when questioned about why they only rob native Swedes, in interviews with Petra Akesson for her thesis in sociology. “I read a report about young robbers in Stockholm and Malmö and wanted to know why they rob other youths. It usually does not involve a lot of money,” she says. She interviewed boys between 15 and 17 years old, both individually and in groups.

Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.” “We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to.” The immigrant youth regard the Swedes as stupid and cowardly: “The Swedes don’t do anything, they just give us the stuff. They’re so wimpy.” The young robbers do not plan their crimes: “No, we just see some Swedes that look rich or have nice mobile phones and then we rob them.”

I'm still interested in your positions but have found little in your replies that would cause me to re-examine mine.

Zoot,

You're engaging in the same conflation of issues as all the rest of the rabid right, You are trying to pain every muslim as a radical force to be destroyed, otherwise they will overtake us. this is the same thing as trying to claim every Russian was a communist, who had only the destruction of the US in mind.

When you purposely lump an entire religions with the nutballs who occupy the fringe, then you are purposefully mischarachterizing things.

As I mentioned before, there are no lack of Fringe Christians who advocate the death of people, pat Roberts, or a more violent example, the white-supremist movements, they both have what they claim are Christian mandates for their hate speech, but most fair-minded people can seperate the crazies from the moderate people who don't advocate killing.

I understand that the people we hear about in the media are the radicals, because that is who we are fighting, but on the other ahnd, you never hear about the run of the mill imam in the ME who is teaching moderate views in their mosques, not because they don't exist, but because they don't garner ratings.

"Quit picking and choosing your talking points, and put your hood back on, I don't wanna see your face."-TEO

You keep bringing up Islam's racism:

Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.”

freedom1,

--Christians should kill their bad children?

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

--more baby and children killing?

TEO,

Again you try to make a moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity. You are totally clueless. Here's Isaiah 13, pay particular attention to #11, 13 and 19.

A Prophecy Against Babylon

1 An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:
2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath—
those who rejoice in my triumph.

4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.

5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens—
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath—
to destroy the whole country.

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. [a]

7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.

8 Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.

9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

14 Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
each will return to his own people,
each will flee to his native land.

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.

18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' [b] pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 She will never be inhabited
or lived in through all generations;
no Arab will pitch his tent there,
no shepherd will rest his flocks there.

21 But desert creatures will lie there,
jackals will fill her houses;
there the owls will dwell,
and there the wild goats will leap about.

22 Hyenas will howl in her strongholds,
jackals in her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged.

Freedom1,

You are the one who keeps going with this stupid idea, so i'll sink to your level some more.

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

--repeatedly raping women, what a bunch of sick bastages, aren't you ashamed of what your book teaches you?

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

--wow, moses and God sure do have a soft-spot for raping virgins

"--wow, moses and God sure do have a soft-spot for raping virgins" Posted by: Third Eye Open

Your blasphemy hurts you. Again, I suggest you pay particular attention to Isaiah #11 above.

"--wow, moses and God sure do have a soft-spot for raping virgins" Posted by: Third Eye Open

Your blasphemy hurts you. Again, I suggest you pay particular attention to Isaiah #11 above.

Why don't you answer ZootAllure's questions?? Too difficult?

Freedom1,

I read it, it seems like most of what the bible says, God is vengeful, and much smiting abounds.

by the way, I did respond to him, it's farther up the post, sorry sugar-dumplings.

xoxoxo

"by the way, I did respond to him"

Yes you replied to my posts...No you didnt answer the direct questions I asked...twice. As well you mischaracterized my position again...

"You are trying to pain every muslim as a radical force to be destroyed"

I never in any post advocated that so your statement is either disingenious or a lack of comprehension of what I took great pains to clearly state.

"this is the same thing as trying to claim every Russian was a communist"

Something else I never did even back then.

"When you purposely lump an entire religions with the nutballs who occupy the fringe, then you are purposefully mischarachterizing things."

You must love those strawmen but I refuse to defend a position I never took.

"As I mentioned before, there are no lack of Fringe Christians who advocate the death of people, pat Roberts, or a more violent example, the white-supremist movements"

You know when I see 10,000 christians jumping up and down shooting their AK's into the air with their children on their shoulders screaming death to islam then I might take that arguement a something more than a lame moral equivalence.

"you never hear about the run of the mill imam in the ME who is teaching moderate views in their mosques, not because they don't exist"

Please point me to where I can find these folks and not what they say to english audiences. I'll wager that if you can I can find Arabic versions of what they say that will directly contradict the English version but I'm open to be proven wrong.

By the by for backgrounds sake. I'm 50, agnostic every now and then pot smoking ex-hippie, activly demonstrated against Vietnam, voted Dem till 96 and 2000 when I didnt vote as I didnt care for either, think drugs should be legalized and treated as a social prob rather than a criminal one(show me one prohibition in the history of man that didnt exacerbate the prob) and voted Bush because...well come on Kerry...yea right...If you think Bush is a moron that guy is braindead. Trying to lump me into a convenient pidgeon hole of rabid right is downright ridiculous.

To anybody else reading these posts I believe I have given TEO ample opportunity and afforded him fair treatment in every post. I wanted to engage him in a open and non hostile manner to see if he was able to respond to points that all too often end up in ridiculous mud slinging, strawmen, rudeness and hyperbole. Quite frankly I refrain posting generally because of it...I have better things to do. If I have failed in this I truly would be interested in hearing how.

TEO for a third time I will post the questions but have given up on you responding in a specific manner to the positions I expressed.

"We have seen how the moderate muslim can overcome the radical"

Where would you consider this has happened to the degree necessary for us to coexist?

"It's a matter of providing support and protection for these doctors and lawyers, and business men to bring a lot of cash into the region"

You have stated previously that we should get out of the ME. How do we accomplish this without a large and controlling military presence in the region?

Third Eye Spewing is coming undone. His thin veneer of civilization is peeling back, showing the true bigot underneath.

And evidently Ranty Rhodes has gone back to her classes on Hitler Lite, as The Eye has been referring to old Uncle Adolph quite a bit lately. Not referring to him accurately, but in the Air America version, which is edited and fictionalized till it has very little relationship to Hitler or history at all.

No, Kristallnacht was not based on religion, nor on any kind of "fear". It was a calculated opening salvo in a planned terror campaign against the Jewish population of Germany. On the surface, it was a retaliation for the killing of a German soldier, but the most disciplined army in the world would hardly have gone so bonkers over the death of a comrade.

The Jews were identified more as a race than as a religion, and fear had nothing to do with the hatred for them. Part of it was an emotion-based irrational loathing, based on lies about the race, religion, and culture. Part of it was a cold, calculated, appraisal of the riches held by Jews and a desire to confiscate those riches. And part of it was an understanding that many people respond more to appeals to hatred than to reason, and a grasp of the fact that a certain amount of power can be gained by appealing to the lowest aspect of human nature, which is very strong in some people----the bully in them. Hitler was a genius at recognizing the inherent power of the mindless rabble, and in figuring out how to appeal to them and their underlying rage, imptotence, and ignorance. (A lesson well-learned by Air America and well-illustrated by the Eye and axis and some others who drop in here.)

Hilter may have been born a Christian, may have been baptized a Christian, may have even pretended to be a Christian in his campaign to be elected chancellor of Germany. But he went on to denounce all relgions, in the harshest terms. Actually, his attacks on religion sound a lot like The Eye's.

Christianity is an overall religious belief based on the belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who came to earth to sacrifice his life for mankind. Under the general umbrella of Christianity are many religions, more than 1600 is the last number I read. Each of these Christian religions has its own viewpoints and interpretations of the Bible. The nutcases who whine about the imaginary "Religious Right" wanting to turn the United States into a "theocracy" are simply ignorant. When I ask which religion will run this "theocracy" I am told, "Well, Christianity, of course!"

So which one of approximately 1600 Christian religions will take over the country? Only a true moron could pretend to think that there is no difference between the teachings and beliefs of LDS followers and Calvinists, between Roman Cahtolics and Presbyterians.

But the fake threat of a "theocracy" gets the bigots like the Big Open Eye all wound up, and feeds their paranoia and bigotry with inventions like "Hitler was a Christian" and "...more death and destruction has been waged on this earth in the name of Christianity, than any other religion in history." The mindless regurgitation of these canards is the hallmark of the far left radical, the neorad in our midst.

It is different in content, but not in style from the claims of Muslims, that Jews steal Muslim and Christian babies and stack them in barrels lined with nails, so when the tops are pressed down, their innocent blood flows out the bottom, to be used in Passover rituals.

Equally vile, equally false, but with the same goal---to appeal to a certain mentality which is susceptible to negative emotional manipulation, and which will easily become so addicted to the loathing it inspires that it will steadfastly ignore any factual counterpoint presented.

It is simple theories for simple minds. But Aunty Ranty would be proud of you , Eyeful, for your faithful regurgitation of her non-factual non-history incitement to hatred, bigotry, and ignorance.

By the way, Eye....you might take a step back and wonder just how you got to the point where you have absolutely no personal pride or dignity, merely a compulsion to blurt out the most insane and outrageous things you've heard on the radio just because they appealed to you personally.

I have quoted your claim that Arabs simply do not and can not hate Jews because they are all semetic and therefore Muslims hating Jews would be a form of self-hatred. I have also been accused of making that up, as no one could possibly be so stupid as to say something like that, or so devoid of personal pride that he would not care what people thought of him after he did say it.

Maybe if you would quit gazing so raptly into that always-open "eye" you are so fond of, you might see something besides .... what you see there. Because until you remove your head from your nether regions, the view will never change.

And learn to draw the line, man, between just average lefty rantings and total insanity. I know it's a fine line, but work on that.......

Zoot,

My statement regarding your quote of Yasser Ghalbanof of Hamas, was warrented, and that was what my point regarding the conflation of the issue, sprung from.

You chose a quote from a group you know to be adimantly opposed to the west and Israel, yet you didn't bother to juxtapose it with another quote, such as this one:

"Dr. Ataullah Siddiqui, Senior Lecture in Pluralism at Markfield Islamic Institute, Leicestershire, said, ‘I am dismayed to see that Andrew Carey has not heard the Muslims’ chorus of ‘no’ to terrorism, which, is indeed, often committed by Muslim governments against their own people. In Pakistan a few years ago Muslims were killed in a mosque during Ramadan while at prayer. More recently Christians were killed while attending Sunday worship. For me these were equally heinous crimes against humanity. Somehow we Muslims seem to be expected to share guilt for an act of terror committed by someone bearing a Muslim name, in a way that does not happen to the Christian community, or to the Buddhists after the subway deaths in Tokyo. Mr Carey says that debate is being stifled about peace and jihad. This shows he has not heard the debate going on within the community about human rights, minorities, conversion, peace, justice and human dignity.’"

http://www.anglicannifcon.org/Islamic%20Voices.htm

"Dr. Al Qaradawi said that in Islam it is not permissible to attack places of worship such as churches and synagogues or attack men of religion, even in a state of war.

“Civilians, such as the German tourists, should not be killed, or kept as hostages. Jews, not in conflict with Muslims, must not be killed either. Anyone who commits these crimes is punishable by Islamic Sharia and have committed the sin of killing a soul which God has prohibited to kill and of spreading corruption on earth,” said Dr. Al Qaradawi."

http://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm

I won't waste too much space, but I found a nice little resevoir of news and notes regarding the denunciation of 9/11 and radical islam here:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

--I was trying to get at the point that there is a wide view among many scholars and imams, that shows there is plenty of room for discussion, but we have to be ready to accept that retaliation is going to do nothing more than just make their job in being listened to, much more difficult. Sorry they aren't in arabic, it gets a bit diluted trying to get the initial translations, not to mention my Farsi, Urdu, and Arabic are more than a bit rusty LOL

What I wanted you to takea look at was the flourishing, moderate civilizations that existed in the early part of the century, now I am not going to paint the entire region [ME] with a wide brush, but cities like Tehran, and Kabul, and Baghdad were bursting with sane people, who went about their daily lives, and did a lot to further arts and intellect, world-wide. We hear the radicals because that is what sells papers, and gets ratings up, did you hear about the Jews being allowed into the Islamic party of Morroco, this is just a small example of the realities on teh ground we hear little about in US news. We rarely hear about the strides made towards arab/jewish reconcilliation, in such places as Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan, but we do hear about the whipping up of crowds in Indonesia and Syria.

There is a problem right now, we both understand this, the moderates in Islam have been pushed to the background, and in many instances don't even bother to stand up, but the moment we start lumping everyone together, under the same banner, is when we create a war of civilizations, and basically denounce any moderate muslim left in the wider ME; I hear all too often stupid, and frankly racists overtones here and other places on the net. Yet we hear little to no mention from these same people about radical Christian leaders, who like Pat Roberts has his own station to broadcast to millions of people. This needs to be less about religion, and more about treating these nutjobs as what they are, criminals who need to be hunted down, the more we confuse the false religion they preach, with the true religions of the remaining billion or so people, the easier we will find it is to let the moderates have their platform, IMO.

I think we have a long way to go in backing up regimes like Turkey and to a lesser extent Egypt and Jordan, it's tough for them to fight against the current of countries like Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Some things can't be changed, many in the ME see us as egotistical, and greedy, while this is all just BS, we can't make them think better of us overnight, it's going to be an uphill battle, and I don't know if we will ever completely change their mind, but the more we can wage an intellectual battle with them, the more people we can hope to win the hearts and minds of.

I hope that answered the questions you posed, if not, I can try again later...time for dinner.

Almiranta,

My hope in bringing up Hitler as a christian, was not to attempt to make the point that he was a devout follower, but that many people who have bad intentions, use the belief to further their own ideological gains. If you explore the history,many of the Nazi elites, as well as rank and file soldiers and citizens saw their motives as Christian in nature. Notice I don't say all, but to deny that Hitler played to these beliefs, is nieve. To say that certain Muslims and Christians don't play into these peoples hands would be untrue, but that doesn't mean I should have to accept certain people around here lumping everyone into a single group, because of the actions of other'sin that group; this was my entire point in regards to ANY mention of Christianity, personally I like to keep religion as far away from politics as possible [take that any way you wish, but benign is how I meant it]

People like Pat Roberts are no Christians, he uses his pulpit to spew misinformation and hate, he has a nationally viewed channel which tries to cover his own beliefs in the folds of Christianity.

The same tactic is used by radical Islamists to spew their own form of hatred. So when someone goes about quoting nutjobs in the ME, it completely belies the fact, that we espouse our own hatred, and on a pretty wide media outlet, to boot.

" And part of it was an understanding that many people respond more to appeals to hatred than to reason, and a grasp of the fact that a certain amount of power can be gained by appealing to the lowest aspect of human nature, which is very strong in some people----the bully in them."

--This is exactly what i'm talking about, when Roberts spews some drivel about praying for the death of democratically elected leaders, or the death of SCOTUS justices, and then is seen playing 'footsie' with Bush, it sends a mixed message of verification of those distorted views; the undertone of these photo-ops is adding more fuel to the fire that somehow, by proxy, America supports these views, and whether rightly or wrongly, that meme is filtered to the rest of the world.

Conflating the distorted messages of radical Islam, with moderate believers, dehumanizes these folks, and in the minds of the unintelligent, justifies our actions in the ME. To deny that these memes aren't being used to further the ideological beliefs of certain Christain sects, is to deny that evil can exist, even with a benevolent face...If Germany could fall victim to it, then so can we.

Compare the few who follow Roberts with the number who devoutly regurgiate anything said on Air America and you will see my point. Any movement has its radicals. But the radicals on the right do not represent the right. They are ignored for the most part. They do not, in spite of the anti-Christian movement claims of the Left, have much influence at all, much less define the party. The radicals on the Left seem to be gaining power and influence, and to actually be shaping the identity of the party.

I have been talking for months about making a distinction between religious Islam and secular Islam. The term "radical Islam" doesn't seem to me to be a good distinction because it allows for radicalism in the direction of theology rather than in the direction of political agendas. So no one can accuse me of lumping all Muslims together.

People "dehmanize" themselves by their actions. A person can describe himself as a "moderate" Muslim but if he is doing the Monkey Dance of Joy at seeing the Twin Towers fall, he has effectively dehumanized himself in my eyes, but not by his religion as much as by his acts.

"Our actions in the ME" are not based on a mistaken idea of what Islam really is, or on a desire to impose any other religious concept. It is a complex undertaking. Part of it is that we must deal with our attackers in ways THEY understand.

As they have openly stated THEIR understanding of our failure to retaliate for prior attacks as weakness and an invitation to attack again, we must deal with THEIR perceptions and act accordingly. Therefore, we must retaliate, and in a way that makes it clear that there are severe consequences for attacking us.

If we allow them to define the parameters of OUR retaliation, we give them too much conrol. So we must define our own parameters. If we had merely gone into Afghanistan, is a simple one-to-one retaliatory movement, we would have been giving them the ability to control what we do. But proceeding to identify Iraq as a different, but related and equally dangerous, threat to our security, and following up by dealing with them as well, made it clear that once we are attacked we will do whatever we feel will make us safer----and WE are the ones to make that determiniation.

If we didn't do that, the terrorists would be pulling the strings. They could send in attackers only from a small group based in Lebanon, for example, and be secure in the knowledge that we would retaliate only by going into Lebanon. A precedent of saying "We don't care who funded them, who trained them, or who supplied them---we only care about what group they belonged to" would create a very bad situation.

You say:
"...To deny that these memes aren't being used to further the ideological beliefs of certain Christain sects, is to deny that evil can exist, even with a benevolent face..."

I find that comment very confusing. Yes, I can and do deny that civility between the President and another Republican, who happens to be a fundamentalist Christian, is sending a message that we are in the Middle East to promote the "meme" of Christianity. I think that is what you were saying.

But denying that our efforts in the Middle East reflect a Robertsonian view of Christianity is in no way a denial that "evil can exist" much less a comment in any form on whether or not it may or may not have a benevolent face.

Actually, I am befuddled by your entire statement.

Some values existed long before Christianity. Though they may have been incorporated into Christianity, that is because they are valuable and even essential to civilization and humanity. To look merely at the fact that some of these values may be reflected in Christian teachings, and then to leap to the conclusion that promoting these values can only be explained by an effort to "further the ideological beliefs of certain Christain sects,.." is another stretch.

While you and some of your cohorts may place great import on "undertones" and "memes" and the discernment of various otherwise hidden motives and agendas, that does not mean that they exist.

I have seen, in many of your writings, a hostility toward Christianity. I just don't understand this. As long as no Christian is trying to make you agree with him, why should you care who believes what? But you seem driven to discredit an entire historical and religious movement because of isolated instances that you seem to feel can be used to taint the whole.

And the constant references to how much evil has been done in the name of Christianity are the backbone of anti-religious bigotry.

I have done extensive study of WW Two. I have never seen any reference to any Nazi program being guided by a belief in Christianity. But if you claim that individual Muslims may distort the teachings of their own religion to justify their own actions, then certainly this can be true of any other religion. Or philosophy.

I have noted repeated references on your part to how many bad things have happened in the past, as if those things have anything to do with today.

I was a Liberal. Now I am not. It would be silly to just dismiss any conservative point of view I might espouse because I once had other views.

But mostly in your posts I see a determination to revile and discredit any point of view which is not radically Leftist, and a choice to use questionable debate techniques to do so. You draw connections that are irrelevant, and create conclusions that are not reasonable.

In general, I find your arguments to be intellectually dishonest. It is clear that you are not a seeker of truth, but merely a promoter of a position. Even when you appear to be considering a reasonable approach, you fall back into the dogma of your personal belief system. Mark refers often to his personal belief system, and its influence on his life, but unlike you he is candid about it.

And your references are often not historically correct, much less relevant. It is clear that you listen to someone you think knows a lot about a topic, and then absorb and repeat what you are told, without having done the research yourself. I listen to some of these sources myself, and I am constantly amazed and apalled at the blatant untruths and distortions that are presented to a gullible audience as fact. So when I hear the same garbage repeated here, I know where it came from, and how the quoters have their "facts" so mangled.

Almiranta,

“But the radicals on the right do not represent the right. They are ignored for the most part.”

--Shall we talk about the Gay marriage amendment, who exactly is pushing that? The religious right,
much like it was during the 80’s, is being used as a voting bloc to be exploited by the party, what happened to the ideal sof the real republican party, which consisted of protections of long held readings of the bill of rights, and small government; no matter who has taken over the party now, this isn’t Reagan’s conservatism, nor even in the same ballpark.

When you talk about someone doing the, “Monkey dance of joy”, I wonder, just who are you talking about? Are you referring to the people who the media took careful attention to highlight, or do you know some of these folks personally?
You illustrate my point exactly, there may have been people really happy to see the US’s nose bloodied that day, but the story you never saw where the people in Tehran having candle-light vigils, or in Saudi Arabia, and even Lebanon. You are assuming that since you saw it on TV, that every muslim in the world must have been happy 9/11 happened. So can we say iran hates the US, when there obviously was sympathy there for us, you have to be selective about who you are calling what, otherwise when you speak, you make it out to be the whole of Islam hates us.

“But proceeding to identify Iraq as a different, but related and equally dangerous, threat to our security, and following up by dealing with them as well, made it clear that once we are attacked we will do whatever we feel will make us safer----and WE are the ones to make that determiniation.”

--So, because we have the military might to topple any nation we want, we should go about doing that, based on our security prerogatives? By that logic, a nation like Iran can attack Israel, or North Korea can attack us, leaving Afghanistan was the dumbest thing we could have ever done, we invited the muslim world to empathise with the elements who were saying the same things, “The US will invade a muslim nation to take over, and put us under their boots” and so we obliged them, instead of working with Turkey, or Jordan, or even an Egypt, we needed our revenge, we needed our pound of flesh, who is controlling the battle here? We are mixed up in a civil war, which we don’t control, and have given the terrorists the biggest recruiting tool they could have ever asked for. Quite a plan

“Yes, I can and do deny that civility between the President and another Republican, who happens to be a fundamentalist Christian, is sending a message that we are in the Middle East to promote the "meme" of Christianity”

--When Roberts claims that Islam is the Devil’s religions, or possessed, or some other BS, and then in the next clip, he is seen having a nice little chat with bush, or praying with him, or some other inane photo-op, how does that play in the ME? What would it look like here if we saw a Radical Imam from Saudi Arabia, praying with the King of Jordan, wouldn’t that seem as though he is condoning the words of that leader, don’t be so nieve to think that image isn’t everything in politics.

“I have never seen any reference to any Nazi program being guided by a belief in Christianity”

--You aren’t looking very hard then. Hitler used many, many Christian references in his speeches, all the way to his end. Look at the symbols of the Nazi party, they are steeped in Christian trappings. “Gott Min Uns” was used all over the place, now whether he was a devout follower, or just used this pretense to placate the masses, could be in dispute, but he made sure to use the Christian ideals to their fullest ability, as I suspect many Radicals in Islam do.

You can think whatever you want, I’m sure you have already made up a convenient life history, and philosophical make-up for me, but I would bet if you were to meet me in person, you would discover I am conservative in many ways, you probably couldn’t fathom right now.

I could really care less about your feelings regarding me, but I argue my point as well as I can, if you find them sophomoric, then so be it, but you still can’t provide more than hyperbole and rhetoric when we throw banter back and forth, so I’ll continue to battle, and I hope you will too.

Islam is naturally extreme. It is the basis for the existence of this religion.