I will accept nothing less than victory-defined as freedom and democracy-in Iraq.

A debate at this stage of the game is a waste of time. Keep on truckin'!!

Freedom,

They had democratic elections, and they are free from Saddam, Mission Accomplished!

Can we bring our guys home now, or did you have more requirements for victory?

Last requirement ... 325,000 loyal Iraqi troops able to accomplish and maintain stability within their country. Then we go home.

Any other question T.E.O.?

American troops were in Bosnia for 9 years. We've only been in Iraq 3 years. Historically speaking we've accomplished more in Iraq in 3 years than we did in Bosnia in 9 years. When CPLViper's requirement is met, then we can depart Iraq.

AP: "Senate rejects U.S. troop pullout in Iraq". The vote was 93-6.

Good.

Freedom,

We went in to stop ethnic cleansing and civil war in Bosnia, we have been present to watch both of those things BEGIN in Iraq...how exactly do you measure accomplishments?

TEO, Who's being ethnically cleansed in Iraq? Who's doing the "cleansing"?

Victory and democracy in Iraq? I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there is no Iraq. There are no Iraqis. There is no national unity.
There are only Kurds, Sunni, and Shia and they hate each other. They have hated each other for millennia and they will continue to do so long after all the Americans are gone.
If any of you neocon nitwits took the time to study the culture of this land you would know we’ve embarked on mission impossible. The only way to get these groups to settle down and stop blowing each other up is to use the tools Saddam Hussein used, terror, torture, and death.

TEO is freedom, didn't you get the latest conspiracy memo!

Let's see...........Zarqawi's demise leads to

#1. Leading terrorist Dead!!!
#2. 428 following successful raids!
#3. Capture of 800+ insurgents & some high level Al-Queda terrorist!
#4. Death of 110+ terrorists/insurgents!
#5. Many documents & Intell. leading to the gutting of insurgent activities & weapons caches(30+).
#6. Documents detailing plans to start civil war in Iraq between factions with the intent of overthrowing the democratic government!
#7. Documents detailing plans to start a war between the U.S. & Iran!
#8. Last but not least, letters and personal documents detailing by Zarqawi's own hand the frustrations of LOSING battle after battle to the U.S. Military(OOH-RAH)!

Did I leave anything out! Not looking like a very good issue for dems to run on now.....is it!!!

TEO: Ethnic cleansing? Where are the mass graves?

Freedom,

"Mr. Azawi was among the few Sunni Arabs on the block, and, according to witnesses, when a Shiite friend tried to intervene, a gunman stuck a pistol to his head and said, "You want us to blow your brains out, too?"

Mr. Azawi's body was found the next morning at a sewage treatment plant. A slight man who raised nightingales, he had been hogtied, drilled with power tools and shot."

""This is sectarian cleansing," said Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish member of Parliament, who has maintained a degree of neutrality between Shiites and Sunnis.

Mr. Othman said there were atrocities on each side. "But what is different is when Shiites get killed by suicide bombs, everyone comes together to fight the Sunni terrorists," he said. "When Shiites kill Sunnis, there is no response, because much of this killing is done by militias connected to the government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/international/middleeast/26bodies.html?ex=1301029200&en=dd8fedf8798bbc1c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

thats just ONE article, infact the first one that popped up, check out the UN or WHO databanks, you can find all sorts of infomation about the atrocities that are happening while we turn corners and let them stand up while we stand down, or whatever silly "Goal" Bush is pushing this week.

Kimberly,

You don't have to kill people to "ethnically cleanse" a neighborhood. If it wasn't occuring, why are there people fleeing en-masse throughout the country, to Iran, or Pakistan, or to other parts of the country to live with family. There is somewhere between 300-600k refugees in iraq right now, who do you think is forcing them out?

the bodies are showing up daily, 3 or 5 or 8 at a time, under bridges, on train tracks, and in fields, all over the country.

Bear,

quick question jarhead.

Was Zarqawi controlling the 95% of the homegrown terrorists?

now how is blowing his slimy butt up going to stop the people who are engaging in tit-for-tat sectarian killings?

what are we doing to win hearts and minds?

Does Zarqawi getting snuffed somehow change the fact that most of the police are militia who may be colluding or engaging in killings and ethnic cleansing?

TEO, so your contention is that Muslims are ethnically cleansing Muslims. And here I thought Islam was the "religion of peace".

"#8. Last but not least, letters and personal documents detailing by Zarqawi's own hand the frustrations of LOSING battle after battle to the U.S. Military(OOH-RAH)!" -BearmanUSMC

OOH-RAH indeed! I wonder if Zarqawi was crying when he wrote those letters? Wah!!
:P

If you love your country lefty or righty and you love the Marines, again lefty or righty then please read this and call or email the contact at the bottom

Damn CAIR can kiss my ass.

freedom,

In Bosnia it was Christians cleansing Muslims, and Christians cleansing other Christians.

I thought christianity was a religion of peace too!

TEO,

Those "Christians" were acting AGAINST Christianity. Big difference.

Freedom,

And those MUSLIMS were acting against Islam.

anything else you wanna add?

No they weren't.

Look up, TEO

The Iraqi government wants to give amnesty to insurgents that have killed US soldiers. I am sure that the republicans would never allow this happen. If republicans will not all amnesty to hard working, clean living illegal aliens (willing to pay a fine and back taxes) why would they agree to amnesty for killers!

What you say Senator Stevens? “And if that's amnesty, I'm for it.”

Really? How about you Senator McConnell? “pass a resolution commending the Iraqi government for the position that they’ve taken today with regard to this discussion of Amnesty”

Come on now, these guys are terrorists with blood on their hands. What you say Senator Cornyn? “It makes no sense for the United States Senate to shake its finger at the new government of Iraq and to criticize them…”

Is this the republican’s idea of tuff on terror?

Doah, I was referring to the mass graves in Bosnia.

Freedom,

If you wanna argue about where in the Qur'an it advocates killing others, then please, give me the quotes. In the meantime, ill give you a few quotes from the bible that advocate killing christians, and we can haggle about interpretations:

""[Thousands of angels] proclaimed with loud voices: 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!'... I saw heaven wide open, and a white horse appeared; its rider's name was Faithful and True, for he is just in judgment and just in war.... [H]e was robed in a garment dyed in blood, and he was called the Word of God. The armies of heaven followed him.... Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to smite the nations; for it is he who will rule them with a rod of iron, and tread the winepress of the fierce wrath of God the sovereign Lord."
(Revelation 5:11-12 and 19:11, 13-15)

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword."
(Jesus according to Matthew 10:34, KJV)

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
(Jesus according to Luke 19:27, KJV)

and on, and on, and on...

look, most of the people on this planet are normal run of the mill Muslim, or Christian, or Hindu, or Jew, and most don't buy into religious mandated murder; but you aren't allowed to throw every muslim into one pile, call them all killers and then lean back, smug in your moral high-ground.

Kimberly,

are you saying that there was no ethnic cleansing going on in Bosnia?...and remember that the term doesn't mean you have to kill someone, just cleanse an area of one race or religion.

As a side note,

I applaud Bush on his actions regarding the New national monument in Hawaii.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13300363/

Now all we need to do is start the bitching regarding the imminent threat to the Whaling ban in the UN...go get em George!

2500..................that's the number of dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

And I ask you all............................for what?

TEO,

I don't throw all Muslims into one pile. There are moderate Muslims but there is NO SUCH THING as moderate Islam.

Qur’an 49:9 “If two parties among the Believers fall into fighting, make peace: but if one becomes aggressive, then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies.”

Ergo, Sunni vs. Shia wars infinitum. Here's a few more quotes:

Qur’an 4:97 “Verily, when angels take the souls of those who die wronging themselves (by staying home), they say: ‘In what (plight or engagement) were you?’ They reply: ‘Weak on the earth.’ Such men will find their abode in Hell, an evil resort!”

Qur’an 9:67 “The Hypocrites enjoin what is forbidden, and forbid what Islam commands. They withhold their hands (from spending in Allah’s Cause [Jihad]). They have forgotten Allah so He has forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are oblivious, rebellious and perverse.”

Qur’an 9:68 “Allah has promised the Hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers the Fire of Hell for their abode: Therein shall they dwell. It will suffice them. On them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment, a lasting torment.”

Qur’an 9:45 “Only those ask for exemption (from Jihad) who believe not in Allah and whose hearts are in doubt, so that they are tossed to and fro. If they had intended to march out to fight, they would certainly have made some preparation and readied their equipment; but Allah was averse to their being sent forth; so He made them lag behind. ‘Sit you among those who sit.’ If they had marched with you, they would not have added to your (strength) but only (made for) discord, spying and sowing sedition. There would have been some in your midst who would have listened to them. But Allah knows well those [peace-loving Muslims] who do wrong and are wicked.”

Qur’an 9:101 “Among the desert Arabs are hypocrites. They, like the people of Medina are obstinate in hypocrisy. We know them. Twice shall We punish them, and in addition they shall be brought back to a horrible torment.”

TEO,

You think Revelation is about killing Christians?!? You have no comprehension of Christianity whatsoever.

The "sword" Jesus was talking about in Matthew is the Word of God.

Luke 19:27 is a parable.

Buy a clue, TEO.

Freedom,

Seems pretty clear all those quotes are advocating killing someone, It didn't specify anywhere that you should do it to ONLY non-Christians or otherwise.

You know this conversation has no end, but you trying to make yourself feel better about Christianity being some icon of peace is laughable. Do I need to bring up certain prominant Christians who advocate his followers praying for democratically elected leaders to be struck down, or the deaths of Supreme Court justices?

Freedom,

Seems pretty clear all those quotes are advocating killing someone, It didn't specify anywhere that you should do it to ONLY non-Christians or otherwise.

You know this conversation has no end, but you trying to make yourself feel better about Christianity being some icon of peace is laughable. Do I need to bring up certain prominant Christians who advocate his followers praying for democratically elected leaders to be struck down, or the deaths of Supreme Court justices?

TEO - So, you're a pacifist now? Because that is actually an acceptable position. IF, it applies to ALL cases.

For example, killing Islamic wackos is as bad as killing Nazi's is as bad as killing the guy raping your mother or sister... If you believe that violence is NEVER appropriate, that is a respectable poition. If you'd pop the guy killing your family - then you are inconsistent and not really a pacifist. (I use the most extreme examples to make a point and advocate NO violence against your family or Democrats).

TEO: Yes, there was ethnic cleansing in Bosnia but it wasn't being done by the Serbs.

Link is here.

And, I am VERY pleased with the new national marine monument in Hawaii!!!

Vero: Thanks for that post!

You know, Matt, I'm a Democrat - always have been. I'm also opposed to the war in Iraq. I'm also a soldier.

What I'm not is a defeatist. And what offends me the most is this president abusing and trying to break an institution that I've often referred to as my first great love:

The United States Army.

Teenage Liberal is right. There are 2,500 of us - my brothers and sisters - who have died for a very dubious cause. I sure hope some free and democratic Iraqi cures cancer.

As a side note,

I applaud Bush on his actions regarding the New national monument in Hawaii.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13300363/

Now all we need to do is start the bitching regarding the imminent threat to the Whaling ban in the UN...go get em George!

Posted by: Third Eye Open at June 15, 2006 05:44 PM

2500..................that's the number of dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

And I ask you all............................for what?

Posted by: teenage liberal at June 15, 2006 05:52 PM

The sad thing is teen liberal.....you are serious in asking why! So sad! But as long as trees rights & whales rights are more important to you & blind eyes than HUMAN rights, you will never understand!

As a side note,

I applaud Bush on his actions regarding the New national monument in Hawaii.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13300363/

Now all we need to do is start the bitching regarding the imminent threat to the Whaling ban in the UN...go get em George!

Posted by: Third Eye Open at June 15, 2006 05:44 PM

2500..................that's the number of dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

And I ask you all............................for what?

Posted by: teenage liberal at June 15, 2006 05:52 PM

The sad thing is teen liberal.....you are serious in asking why! So sad! But as long as trees rights & whales rights are more important to you & blind eyes than HUMAN rights, you will never understand!

hey Barney- that talking point about amnesty for terrorists is bogus. It had been refuted as a bad translation. Nice try!

Teenage...2500 died for what? Fortunately most of the military gets it and understands why. That is also why the military majority supports this President.

JS...thank you for your service to this country. I disagree with your take on Iraq, but I applaud you for your service.

Canuckguy,

RE: "A debate at this stage of the game is a waste of time."

Not at all. It gives Democrats a real opportunity to express their feelings, show their hate for America, and "vote their convictions" before the November elections so the voters can see them for who they are.

Hopefully, Republicans will vote on issue after issue after issue right up until the November election.

Remove troops from Iraq, turn Iraq over to terrorists, funding for America's troops, gay marriage amendment, flag burning amendment, English as official language, turn America over to illegal immigrants, and on and on and on.

No, Canuckguy. It is not a waste of time. Hopefully, it is only the beginning!!!

AAR

teen,

As you correctly point out, American deaths (and occasionally the deaths of Iraqi men, women, and children) are a major propaganda issue with Democrats and one they use to try and convince Americans that we should cut and run -- the more deaths, the better for the Democrat's purpose!

So, let's see if we can walk through this...

Each time we hear about more troops killed in Iraq -- like 500 or 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 2500 - liberal Democrats like you and the liberal press make it THE ISSUE and REASON the United States should leave Iraq... increasing their rhetoric and calls (demands) for Americans to leave Iraq -- immediately. Right?

Terrorists would like the United States to leave Iraq immediately so they can use Iraq as a new (oil rich) base of operations and training center for their world terrorism -- including terrorism on the United States. Right?

Democrats have made it clear that they will pull out of Iraq if they win the election, and the more American deaths in Iraq, the louder Democrats call for America to leave. Right?

The terrorists in Iraq listen to the news and hear the Democrats using American deaths as a rallying cry and for electing Democrats. Right?

The terrorists know that the more American deaths, the bigger issue Democrats make of it, the lower President Bush's poll numbers go, and the higher the hopes for Democrats winning control of the House and/or the Senate. Right?

Now, let's see... the terrorists want the United States to leave Iraq and Democrats want to cut and run.

Ah, terrorists and Democrats have a common goal -- get the United States out of Iraq -- immediately!

Soooo... How can terrorists help the Democrats? How can terrorists provide more fuel and news to support and feed the Democratic propaganda mill? How can the terrorists possibly help Democrats win control of the House and/or the Senate so the Democrats will pull the United States out of Iraq?

Why, of course, by blowing up, killing, and injuring even more American soldiers and Iraqi men, women and children -- the more the better, and... by blowing up more of the reconstruction work America has spend billions of dollars to fund.

Keep encouraging those terrorists, Democrats.

With friends like you, our troops and the Iraqi people can't afford any more enemies!

(I'll see if I can improve on this for the next time!)

AAR

Eyes Closed,

RE: "We went in to stop ethnic cleansing and civil war in Bosnia, we have been present to watch both of those things BEGIN in Iraq...how exactly do you measure accomplishments?"

Have you forgotten about those hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Shiites that Saddam murdered and piled in mass graves all over Iraq?

AAR

JS

I find it dubious when you say you are a Democrat and a soldier, as we all know the military is for patriots only. Cowards/Democrats cut and run their way to Hollywood, where they dictate their lifestyles onto honest Americans.

Do you offer any proof of military service, or were you working the swiftboats away from the action, like your hero John Kerry?

Posted by: AAR at June 15, 2006 11:03 PM

AAR,

No need to improve. Ouch! That was insightful, incisive and dead-on-accurate. Good job.

Posted by: AAR at June 15, 2006 11:03 PM

AAR,

No need to improve. Ouch! That was insightful, incisive and dead-on-accurate. Good job.

Conservative to the Core is a typical right-wing hate mongoguer........when a vet dissents against AWOL Shrub's war, completely disregard thier service because he's a Democrat!

And btw--Kerry at least had the balls to volunteer when his country needed soldiers, unlike Dick 'The Straight Shooter' Cheney, who got five draft deferments to avoid service, and then claimed that he had "other priorities".

Who's the coward now?

Also, since you have the balls to smear JS's service, when and where didi you serve?

Debating this issue is a waste of time. All one needs do is look back at 40 years of Democrat control of Congress and see what legacy they left us.

It seems that after Korea, the US adopted a policy of abandoning their allies struggling for freedom. Even in Korea we did not win, just kept troops there to keep the Communists at bay.

We saw it when the Cubans that tried to overthrow Castro were decimated in the Bay of Pigs invasion, believing the US had their backs.

We saw it as we sat by and watched the Soviets rearm and resupply North Viet Nam after we pulled out there and when they invaded the South, instead of resupporting them, as promised, we turned our backs and watched as they too were overthrown and their numbers decimated. Anti-war activist, John Kerry (you do realize he served in Viet Nam?) told the nation reprisals might total 3,000. Today we know that number went well over one million with another untold number perishing in the South China Sea escaping the Communist eutopia in rickety boats.

After the first Gulf War, we encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam. When they did, we turned a blind eye and again watched as they too were decimated.

And now, we finally have a chance to redeem our reputation and are making significant headway in building up the Iraqis to have their first ever taste of freedom and liberty in their lives and what happens? Along come 'ol cut and run Kerry demanding we once again abandon another ally and sit back and watch as they too will be cut to shreds by organized terrorists.

America gained its freedom over 200 years ago with help from many others, mostly the French. We could not have done it ourselves. No nation has ever won freedom or kept it by themselves. It takes the help of freedom loving people the world over to do the job. Due to our strength and heritage, America is the nation that is strong enough and wealthy enough to help others that truly seek freedom.

The Kerry's, Kennedy's, Murtha's, Pelosi's and such need to be ignored and sent packing. Freedom lovers the world over cannot afford to listen to them any longer.

I must see that I have suddenly lost all respect for Ben Stein. I have always thought Stein was an intelligent (conservative), free-thinking person. I just got done seeing an interview Neil Cavuto had with him and all he could do was spout nonsensical leftwing sound bites like: Rumsfeld should be fired, Iraq is a quagmire, etc. What a complete butt-head!!! I am SO disappointed!!!

"TEO: Yes, there was ethnic cleansing in Bosnia but it wasn't being done by the Serbs.
Link is here."-Posted by: kimberly4bush

WHOA. I just looked at the link you provided. It paints a totally different picture of the Bosnian War than what the MSM reported. I had never posted anything about Bosnia until today because I'd never done any independent research on the Bosnian War since I was up to my eyeballs in work during the war. I relied on the MSM. I'll never do that again. Damn. So the Muslims were the bad guys? From link:

"Ignored Massacre of Bosnian Serbs
&
Alleged Massacre of Muslims"

Ethnic Cleansing of Serbs
Reliance on Serbs' Supply and Cleansing of Serbs

According to Sefer Halilovic, former Chief of Staff of BH Army, Muslim's military strategy for Srebrenica area was the total dependence on the Serbs' supplies and properties . He continued to say "The only source of our supply was chetnik's (Serbs') stores and their production." In other words, it was nothing more than the robbery of bandit groups. Muslims started their assault against the smallest Serbian hamlets and then against the villages where Serbs are minority. Afterwards, they targeted Serbs villages surrounded by Muslim villages. Finally, large Serbs villages were targeted. On May 6, 1992, just two days before Zekic was killed, small hamlets, Bljeceva and Gniona, had been already robbed and burnt as a sign indicating what would happen from now on. On May 7, seven Serbs who tried to escape from Srebrenica were ambushed and killed. On May 15, the villages of Viogor, Orahovica, Karno, Civevci, and Radossevi were attacked. In this way, from May 1992 to Jan 1994, as many as 192 villages were robbed and burnt . During the period, 8,000 Serbian houses had been assaulted, and 5,400 houses were completely demolished into rubbles . The number of the killed were more than 1,000, including women, children, and the elderly, and 90% of those were killed particularly during the first six months from May 1992 in spite of the fact that most of them were civilians .

20. Cruelty of violent ethnic cleansing

The wild cruelty of Muslim soldiers in Srebrenica area was very similar to the techniques of "SS Handzar" in the period of World War II. Rather than using bullets, Muslim soldiers used dull objects as weapons and gradually killed Serbs, mostly civilians, by mutilating, taking off an eye, castrating, crucifying, or burning. The traces of the torture were so visible on corpses that most of the autopsy process was videotaped and photographed by Serb doctors who conducted autopsy.

With you on that one Bret, fortunately I never had much respect for Ben, now I have zero! Just goes to show you, another smart idiot!

Teenage...you really need to read a lot more about Kerry and his "volunteering". Get back to me when you've grown up son and tell me again about his volunteering into the Naval Reserve so he could avoid combat, the same thing you accuse Bush of doing.

Conservative to the Core is a typical right-wing hate mongoguer........when a vet dissents against AWOL Shrub's war, completely disregard thier service because he's a Democrat!

And btw--Kerry at least had the balls to volunteer when his country needed soldiers, unlike Dick 'The Straight Shooter' Cheney, who got five draft deferments to avoid service, and then claimed that he had "other priorities".

Who's the coward now?

Also, since you have the balls to smear JS's service, when and where didi you serve?

Posted by: teenage liberal at June 16, 2006 12:52 AM

Oh right Teen libby, four deferments by Skerry before volunteering is so much better! I hope you are going to be a brave U.S. armed forces volunteer after the "strong stand" you just made to CttC.

This looks like a great opportunity to get the GOP ads for the next two campaigns together.
Just quote these testosteroneless libs while they show their inner bellys to the world.

"JS

I find it dubious when you say you are a Democrat and a soldier, as we all know the military is for patriots only. Cowards/Democrats cut and run their way to Hollywood, where they dictate their lifestyles onto honest Americans.

Do you offer any proof of military service, or were you working the swiftboats away from the action, like your hero John Kerry?"

Dubious? You are a coward! How dare you insult one of our soldiers CoC! You obviously don't support the troops. Very unpatriotic, almost treasonous. What have you done that qualifys you to judge one of our troops? You have probably never left that state you were born in. All soldiers are not repubs, and all do not agree with this administration. If it makes you feel better to question a soldiers loyalty because their views differ from your own, you are a sad, sad person.

I regard the people here who wish to downgrade the atrocities that happened in the Blakans, as vile, human-beings; on par with those who wish to deny that the exterminations of millions of people during WWII didn't happen.

If you have any doubt about the murder and hatred that did, and still doesn exist between the factions, then I suggest you take your lazy investigation to any number of sites run by the UN or NGOs who were there and saw the torture and ethnic cleansing.

All sides and factions involved saw theirs as the true suffer, while they completely lost sight of the horrors they were causing others. It was Serb killing Serb, Croats against Muslim, Muslim against Croat, Christian against Christian.

if you want to hear the real voices of everyday people, take a minute to explore this site, and educate yourself for God(s) sake, it's idiots like you who re-write history, and allow mistakes like this to happen over and over again.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week413/cover.html

/SPIT!

It saddens me that once again Hastert and Boehner, have used this critical and painful issue to divide us, instead of unify us. By presenting only a "with us or against us" stance they have presented representatives with a false choice, blowing the opportunity for reasoned debate between the parties. Its obvious that the Republicans want to use the results of the vote on the resolution to define Democrats as cutting and running, if they vote against it, or flip-floppers if they vote for it. Predictable tactic, as they know that's probably the only way they can win on this no-win issue.

I watched the news like everybody else. Getting your information from a biased garbage organization like PBS is pathetic. And get my information from the UN??? You mean the UN who was "there and saw the torture and ethnic cleansing" and failed to stop it??? Clinton went to war in Bosnia WITHOUT the UN. He did it unilaterally. The UN stood by and let the Rwanda GENOCIDE happen without doing a damn thing about that. The UN is repeating its mistakes by letting the GENOCIDE in Sudan happen with even bothering to call by its true name...GENOCIDE. Check your "sources" and educate yourself.

/SPIT!

I do want to clarify one thing. It wasn't just the Muslims who were the bad guys. The Serbs and the Croats were bad guys too. But, the MSM's portrayal of the Serbs suddenly going berserk and engaging in ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Muslims for no reason was not accurate either. There was plenty of blood on the hands of Muslims, Serbs and Croats prior to the Srebrenica massacre. The whole Bosnian War was a bloody mess.

I do want to clarify one thing. It wasn't just the Muslims who were the bad guys. The Serbs and the Croats were bad guys too. But, the MSM's portrayal of the Serbs suddenly going berserk and engaging in ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Muslims for no reason was not accurate either. There was plenty of blood on the hands of Muslims, Serbs and Croats prior to the Srebrenica massacre. The whole Bosnian War was a bloody mess.

jqueer

"You are a coward! How dare you insult one of our soldiers CoC!"

When did I insult a soldier? I doubt that JS is a soldier, as he is obviously a liberal and probably a pervert. How is that insulting a soldier.

You need to grow up.

"What have you done that qualifys you to judge one of our troops?"

I am always the first one to hoist a flag on July 4th. I have a flag magnet emblazoned on my SUV. I would have served in the military except I'd hurt my knee playing squash when I was a teenager, which I figured would disqualify my from active service.

Look, I'm as patriotic as it gets. How dare you judge me.

All of this has nothing to do with JS claiming he was a soldier while also professing to be a radical lefty.

What have YOU done for this nation, jqueer? Judge not lest ye be judged.

kritter

What is there about uniting us? You guys want to cut and run, we want to win. 42 of your own Congress people said F' YOU as well today on the vote. Looks like one side is a lot more unified then another.

Lets review how many Republican chickenhawks we have

-----------------------

* Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve. "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

* House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

* Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)

* Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

* Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

* Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.

* GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Went AWOL in 1972 and failed to complete his flight training

* VP Cheney - several deferments, the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")

* Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve ; received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.

* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve , too busy being a Republican.

* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve

* Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.

* "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

* Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

* Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

* Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php

* Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

* Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.

* Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986

* Colin Powell. A long career as a military manager.

* Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

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Now lets compare to the democrats

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* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990.

* Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71.

* Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt.,
United States Air Force 1968-72

* Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72

* Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service

* Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam

* Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two

* Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat

* Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea

* Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam

* Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953.

* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

* Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91

* Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

* Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal.

* Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit.

* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart.

* Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V."

* Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star.

* Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57

* Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career

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Imagine that, democrats that served vastly outnumber the Republicans, who vastly avoided the draft

axis,

My response to your false logic and conclusion is posted under the thread "The Latest Democratic Insanity on Iraq."

Check it out!!!

AAR

Some clarifications on the "cut and paste" by axis above (which was from the "un-biased" www.awolbush.com):

In the 108th Congress, The House has 117 veterans: 69 Republicans and 48 Democrats. The Senate has 35 veterans: 19 Republicans and 16 Democrats.

GW Bush - Honorably Discharged after serving six years in the TX ANG as a fighter pilot. Flew over 300 hours, including interceptor missions. Never went AWOL and sucessfully completed his training requirements.

Colon Powell: Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, two tours in Vietnam, awarded the Army Distinguished Service Medal, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart, among other awards.

Donald Rumsfeld: 35 year Naval career, including three years on active duty as a pilot and flight instructor.

Richard Cheney - Received several deferments due to married status and attendance in college. By the time the Vietnam Era lotteries were held, Cheney was 28, too old to participate in the lottery.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales - US Air Force 1973 - 1975.

Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta - US Army 1953 - 1955, Served as an intelligence officer in Japan and Korea.

Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson - US Army 1961 - 1969, US Army Reserve 1969 - 1991.
Combat Service: Vietnam as an Army Ranger. Awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge, Bronze Star Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and Air Medal.

Justice Samuel Alito - Army Reserve 1972 - 1975, US Army 1975, Army Reserve 1976 - 1980.

Senator Ted Stevens - US Air Force 1943-1946. Combat Service in World War II, Awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses and two Air Medals.

Senator Jeff Sessions - Military Service from 1973 to 1986.

Senator John Warner - US Navy 1945 - 1946, USMC 1950 - 1952, USMCR 1952 - 1962. Combat Service in World War II and Korean War.

Senator Pat Roberts - US Marine Corps 1958 - 1962

House Majority Leader John Boehner - US Navy 1969

Representative Steve Buyer - US Army Reserve 1980 - 1984, US Army 1984 - 1987, US Army Reserve 1987 - Present. Combat Service: Desert Storm. Currently serves as a Colonel in the Army Reserve
Awarded the Bronze Star Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and others.

Representative Joe Schwarz - Navy 1965 - 1967, Combat Service: Vietnam. Former CIA officer.

Representative Robert Simmons - US Army 1965 - 1969, Army Reserve 1970 - 2003. Combat Service: Vietnam. Served 19 months in Vietnam, Awarded 2 Bronze Star Medals, Served as an Operations Officer for the CIA.

Representative James Gibbons - US Air Force 1967 - 1971, Air National Guard (Nevada) 1975 - 1996. Combat Service: Vietnam & Desert Storm. Awarded the Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal (x3), Aerial Achievement Medal and Air Force Commendation Medal (x2).

Representative Heather Wilson - US Air Force 1982 - 1989. Only woman veteran currently in Congress. First Air Force Academy graduate in Congress

*************************************************

Now for some distinguished Democrats:

Former President Bill Clinton - Signed up for ROTC. Once his Selective Service Classification was changed to reflect ROTC membership, he quit ROTC and went to England to protest the Vietnam War.

Senator Hillary Clinton - Never served.

Senator Richard "KKK" Byrd - Never served.

Senator Dick Durban - Never served.

Senator Ted Kennedy - After being expelled from Harvard for cheating on an exam, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England, pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea, where a war was raging. Kennedy was assigned to Paris, never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.

Senator Russ Feingold - Never served.

Senator Joseph Biden - Never served.

Senator Patrick Leahy - Never served.

Senator Carl Levin - Never served.

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid - Never served.

Senator Charles Schumer - Never served.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi - Never Served.

So when you look at the facts, something the left never does, more Republicans in the current Congress have served in the military than Democrats, by a 88 to 64 margin.

If you do the math, that's about 1/3 more Republicans than Democrats. Of course, in the liberal, virtual world 180 degrees out of phase with reality, "democrats that served vastly outnumber the Republicans". lol