You're right, but I'd like to be even more specific: what the Left doesn't understand is power, generally, so they can't understand the uses of force beyond force's immediate use.

A really good example of the pros and cons of thinking the way I've mentioned is Jimmy Carter. I don't like him much either, but he's sincere in what he believes, and he really believed that he could be wholly honest when he became President (Bob Woodward, in Shadow, has a pretty interesting anecdote about this; the more general anecdote that's telling is how he refused to schmooze younger members of the House on important votes). Using and preserving power, much less understanding how powerful a tool the mere willingness to use force is, is alien to a mindset that sees purity and innocence as the highest we can aspire to.

Another example of this: note the first comment in this thread, by alexbear -

http://reddit.com/info/7ido/comments

"Terrorists are cowards - this is something our lefties just don't understand. They see some fool bamboozled or coerced into strapping on a suicide vest and they think "heroic" when what they should think is "pathetic - and the guys who sent him on the mission are cowards"

Mark, do you actually believe that "lefties" think suicide bombers are "heroic" ? This is the most stupid claim I have ever heard from any American. What's sick is people who are blind followers of your ignorant anti-American lies believe this crap.
You can have your opinions about the left, but cut the lies and deceit.

...An IDF source said that Fishbein's US citizenship had saved his life since the "last thing the Palestinians want is to open a new front against the Americans."

What a difference from when Leon Klinghofer was brutally murdered.

Think maybe deposing Saddam has something to do with it?

Correct you are, Mark Noonan. I am a 'Lefty' (defined as someone who disagrees with you) and I read the report you posted, and shed huge gator tears, right on cue.

And right again, we 'Leftys' just don't get...anything! La La La...can't hear you...don't bother me with facts. You know.

Especially the fact that 'leftys' view 'suiciders' (bushspeak) as heroic. Right you are. But didn't you hear? They aren't really terrest anymore -- they're Freedom Fighters! And all good Leftys know that a heroic dead suicided Freedom Fighter is the best mascot we could ever hope for.

What's the surprise, Dick? You are whining about some pretty lightweight stuff. You have work to do, Noonan.

Just watch the NEWS provided by your beloved FOX, and have a listen to your beloved Cavuto, Coulter, Carlson, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hume, Savage, Hannity, etc. etc. etc. -- the freakin Leftys are in actual cahoots with Satan himself! They are animals. They should be exterminated. Dittos Rush! One party! One Mind! One Fuhrer!
Come on man. You have more serious issues to address...

I like the Marines "unofficial" slogan. "You can run but you'll just die tired."

I feel the islamofacist terrorists are delusional, not necessarily cowardly.

after all, never underestimate one's enemy.

Mark, you do realize that 80% of the reason that you have a terrorist threat is because the U.S. has had overly aggressive foreign policies for decades, always spending more time meddling with other countries.

This article is clearly slanted, but the point is that a terrorist has already committed to the fact that they are going to die and most are foolish kids that have been brainwashed into thinking that God will reward them for their brave sacrifice.

Not to mention, that fighting America is not what they are about, it is not their enemy, which is why he was spared.

The fact that a Palestinian gunmen speared an american is not a sign that your war on terror is being effective. If anything, like all Bush initiatives, it is a colossal failure.

There were NO terrorists before you invaded Iraq, now there are THOUSANDS there. Al Qaeda was a small terrorist organization before you invaded, now it spans the globe. There is more dead and carnage now than before you went in.

Afganistan is a major failure, where you cut and ran from the one place that had actual terrorists. Now the Taliban and warlords control the country again and coalition forces can't keep up. There is more dead and violence now than before you went in.

In mid-March of 2006, it was learned that federal investigators testing the security of 21 of the nation's airports on the request of Congress were able to carry homemade explosive materials onto airliners in every one of their tests. This proved to be another failure and embarrassment to Homeland Security as it was discovered the that nation's airlines were still vulnerable to a potential suicide bomber attack, similar to the famous shoe bomber attack which was narrowly averted in mid-air.

In late March of 2006, it was also learned that another test by federal investigators on the request of Congress was conducted to see how easy it would be to smuggle materials to make a dirty bomb into the United States. This test, also failed miserably as the investigators were able to successfully smuggle enough radioactive materials to make 2 dirty bombs. Two tests were conducted, one on the Canada/U.S. border and the other on the Mexico/U.S. border. Both failed and the inspectors were able to enter the U.S. using forged documents downloaded from the Internet.

The Bush administration's attempt at handing U.S. port security over to a company owned by the United Arab Emirates in early 2006, also brought the security of U.S. ports into focus. It was also learned that currently, less than 4% of incoming cargo containers are inspected for radiological or terrorist threats. While it is easily possible for 100% of incoming cargo containers to be inspected, the Bush administration and the Republican Congress has denied funding to carry out this important step for 5 years in a row.

Bush knew about 9/11 well before it happened and took no steps to prevent it.

Bush can't protect the country from needless widespread death from a flood that he knew was coming, never mind protecting you from terrorists.

Richard Reid the shoe bomber walked right onto a plane and nearly succeeded in blowing it up, except he forgot to bring a lighter, taking matches instead. A flight attendant saved the plane for goodness sakes. Bush didn't. A $15/hr. female flight attendant is more effective against terrorists than George Bush ever was. She confronted it head on, Bush ran and hid on a 6 week vacation when he found out that there was going to be a major attack on the US on 9/11, and never did anything about it.

Its only been by God graces that you have not had another major attack.

So keep telling yourselves that "Republicans are tough on terror", maybe you will continue to believe it, others don't however and the country now believes overwhelmingly that Democrats would be more effective on Terror, as they have give you 5 years and see nothing but failure after failure after failure.

Guys,

Is this really what this place has degenerated into, a chest thumping, leg-pissing circle-jerk?

Oh you guys are real tough, with bullet-proof passports and little american flags with lasers on the tips of them. It is morons like you who go to other countries and pretend that because we have enough nukes to liquefy the earth, that you have some leverage to wave your own flacid members around and chant "ME, ME, ME!".

What scared little boys; I would love to see how far you poke your chest out in Islamabad, instead of Indianapolis. It's ridge-browed, arm-chair generals such as yourselves who give America a bad reputation as a thug on the world stage. So why don't you tone your cheering down for a second and realize that just because you happen to be born in the greatest nation on earth, doesn't mean that somehow gives you license to act like frat-boys in the middle of a keg stand, grow up gentlemen!

Wow, only about 30 outright lies in axis' latest tirade. Must be a new record.

Wow, only about 30 outright lies in axis' latest tirade. Must be a new record.

-- Try no lies, only truths, which is why you didn't take any to task.

Axis,
How do expect people to listen to your arguments when you present views that are just as slanted in the opposite direction as the views you oppose?

“Not to mention, that fighting America is not what they are about, it is not their enemy”

Presuming you are talking specifically about the Palestinians here, I’m sure they were not crying for us on 9/11.

“There were NO terrorists before you invaded Iraq”

Again presuming you mean in Iraq itself, this may be essentially true, but a huge number of existing terrorists simply moved from other countries into Iraq after Saddam’s fall.

“Afganistan is a major failure, where you cut and ran from the one place that had actual terrorists”

Afghanistan is not a failure. This is one of areas of Bush’s policy where we actually did the correct thing. We severely disrupted and dismantled the Al-Quaida infrastructure and defeated a hostile government who supported direct attacks on our country.

“Bush knew about 9/11 well before it happened and took no steps to prevent it”

OK. But using the same argument so did Clinton. 9/11 would have happened no matter who was in the White House. The intelligence failures resulting in 9/11, as per the 9/11 commission were decades in the making, spanning many administrations. Had Gore won the election, we would be reading today about how he allowed to happen.

“Its only been by God graces that you have not had another major attack.”

I think there’s a more worldly reason for this. As the saying goes, God helps those who help themselves.

Look, I’m no Bush lover. But I’m not a Bush hater. I believe this administration has made mistakes that cost this country dearly. But whether you want to admit it or not, there has been considerable progress in “the war on terror” Yes, we still have a long way to go in Afghanistan and other hot spots in the world, and Iraq is a whole issue in itself. Yes, our domestic security issues need further improvement. Sorry, it’s just tough to buy into some the shoot from the hip arguments I read here.

There were NO terrorists before you invaded Iraq, now there are THOUSANDS there. Al Qaeda was a small terrorist organization before you invaded, now it spans the globe. There is more dead and carnage now than before you went in.

Axis, this is what Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al call job security.

I like the Marines "unofficial" slogan. "You can run but you'll just die tired."

Guess the women, children and old men of Haditha died well rested!

Christopher,

It is the only thing I can conclude from leftwing statements and actions...the left thinks of the terrorists and brave freedom fighters....and as you can see from Ash, they think of our troops as war criminals.

Presuming you are talking specifically about the Palestinians here, I’m sure they were not crying for us on 9/11.

-- Yes, I was referring to this one case.

Again presuming you mean in Iraq itself, this may be essentially true, but a huge number of existing terrorists simply moved from other countries into Iraq after Saddam’s fall.

-- Of course! The occupation provided the perfect environment for terrorist recruiting by using the hatred over the occupation as a tool. The occupation made the situation far, far worse, better to have removed Saddam and put in another puppet dictator as they were originally going to do.

Afghanistan is not a failure. This is one of areas of Bush’s policy where we actually did the correct thing. We severely disrupted and dismantled the Al-Quaida infrastructure and defeated a hostile government who supported direct attacks on our country.

-- Yes, you did. You ran the taliban out of town. But then you cut and run and invaded Iraq, virtually forgetting all about Afganistan and now they have all come back in stronger numbers than before. This is a failure, even the coalition commanders have gone on the record to say that there is no chance at winning under the present situation and that they are vastly outnumbered. The only way to fix this is to finish the job. If you are fixing you roof, you don't strip the old shingles off then forget about it, while you fix your basement instead. You finish what you started.

OK. But using the same argument so did Clinton. 9/11 would have happened no matter who was in the White House. The intelligence failures resulting in 9/11, as per the 9/11 commission were decades in the making, spanning many administrations. Had Gore won the election, we would be reading today about how he allowed to happen.

-- Clinton's foreign policy was weak, thats a fact. But Bush knew a month before the attack that Osama was planning a major attack on US soil involving the use of airplanes. Did nothing. Hayden got a coded message from Osama on Sept 10 and never bothered to decode it until the day after 9/11. Negligance and Incompetance of the worst kind. Then Bush says we are going to get Osama, dead or alive and forgets all about him and gives up just 6 months after 9/11.

Had Gore won the election, we would be reading today about how he allowed to happen.

-- Anything is possible, by that would be unlikely. The Bush administration WANTED another pearl harbor event in order to justify their middle east agenda, its all in plain writing in PNAC. PNAC, BTW announced today that they are going to be closing down as they figure they succeeded in their middle east agenda, with the permanent bases there now and the largest embassy on earth, larger than the vatican under construction.

I think there’s a more worldly reason for this. As the saying goes, God helps those who help themselves.

-- The point was that with all the evidence of incompetance and failures to secure the homeland, it is a miracle that there has not been another attack. Nuclear weapons passing freely through the border, explosives passing freely through airport security checks? C'mon. Homeland Security is a huge failure, they screwed up FEMA, have pedophiles in their midst, can't secure the homeland, the list goes on.

Look, I’m no Bush lover. But I’m not a Bush hater. I believe this administration has made mistakes that cost this country dearly. But whether you want to admit it or not, there has been considerable progress in “the war on terror” Yes, we still have a long way to go in Afghanistan and other hot spots in the world, and Iraq is a whole issue in itself. Yes, our domestic security issues need further improvement. Sorry, it’s just tough to buy into some the shoot from the hip arguments I read here.

-- I don't hate Bush, I hate what he is doing and what he stands for. He is a fascist, wanting absolute power and uses the constitution as toilet paper. Americans travelling abroad have recently been warned not to wear anything that would indicate their nationality as it could endanger them. This is a first and Bush is to blame for unilateral actions and alienating the entire world. Hes a loner, thats the way he likes it and
figures if thats what suits him, thats also whats best for America. To stand alone.

Guess the women, children and old men of Haditha died well rested!

-- Oh, but its all good now, you see the Pentagon authorized a payment of $2500.00 for every dead innocent in that incident. Thats what an Iraqi life is worth to the Republicans, 25 $100 bills.

Mark,

How can we get some of that "Bush Effects" for our troops in Iraq? Our troops keep getting killed over there.

Thanks,

Mike

I am so sick and tired of the neorads claiming they support our troops. The proof of this lie is evident in their posts. Note to Ash: the Marines are innocent until proven guilty.

Did anyone see the interview on CNN with Pantano, the Marine who was acquitted of murder? I wanted to jump through the screen and punch the interviewer in face. It was so obvious he wanted Pantano to admit to something he didn't do. Pantano kept his composure and answered all of the idiot's questions truthfully.

And TEO ... I lost a lot of respect for you when you offered Almiranta your sister to f*ck. Don't you think you should get your sister's permission before you prostitute her out?

If clinton or carter were president, this guy would be a gonner.

Kimberly,

Your lack of respect for me sounds like a personal problem, it's a line from a movie, but thanks for playing.

I am so sick and tired of the neorads claiming they support our troops.

-- We do support the troops, we want to bring them back alive from a war that should not have been, from a fight that has nothing to do with America.

You want to send them to die, but never want to serve yourself.

We want to give them proper body armour and armoured vehicles, proper troops numbers and proper care.

You want to have war on the cheap, cheap out on all that and not care about the troops dying because it it.

Democrats support the troops, we do not support the war.

Republicans support the war, not the troops.

That is the difference that you are always getting confused about, thinking that your warmongering ways is "supporting the troops" and our "end this pointless war" is not.

I can't blame you, its in your nature to take your worst attributes and try to put a positive spin on it. You are incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions. All conservatives share it, its a missing gene or some chemical imbalance in your brain. I think theres a pill you can take though.

axis, as always naught but bile and spite but on your accounting of the value of Iraqi lives to us vicious, lying, fascistic Reps... Don't we have to account also those Iraqis who died under the late torturocracy? And account those in the last few years who would have died had the invasion not taken place? Oh yeah, that's right, the spokesmodel for the loony Left, Michael Moore told us that Saddam's Iraq was a model of peace, freedom and prosperity. Only the rat-eyed chimpanzee emperor blew that gasket. Of course Moore also has told us that Big Z and his subordinates are the MinuteMen of this conflict which makes us the Redcoats. But HEY! DON'T say we think the headchoppers and boomvesters are our heroes or anything. THAT wouldn't be fair. You scum really hand me a laugh, especially today. I would suggest a move to Canada but they're coming around there too. A near miss will do that. Stock up on those meds, chump. Nov harbingers yet more political castor oil. Oh, and Haditha was a hoax, a jihadi hoax (a what?!?!?). Not the first one, not the last that the Dems and anti-American Lefties will boost to your eternal disgrace (though never shame). You mutts will pay for your slanders and treason. Off to oblivion with ye. Say hello to Lyndon LaRouche.

TEO: So, your justification for making that remark is that it was a line taken from a movie? Nice try.

Axis: While it was one of many mistakes made in Iraq (providing our troops with appropriate armor), I seem to recall that Kerry and many other Dems opposed the bill which included $300 million to buy best-grade body armor for all troops in Iraq and additional combat pay and health benefits for reservists called to active duty.

It is comments like the ones Ash and others make that makes me ill. Here's a few others:

"As an American who is concerned with the United States' reputation in the world, I have to state that I sincerely hate the troops. The US troops are war criminals who are killing civilians at the drop of a hat with the lowest of regards for rules of engagement."

"The US troops are goons with guns. I have no pride in troops that supposedly represent me. I have no pity or sympathy when US troops are killed in Iraq. On the contrary, when the brave and noble warriors of the Iraqi Resistance, who fight to liberate their country, kill the US war criminals, I think that something generally positive has occurred in the world."

I could list pages and pages of similar remarks from neorads, but I cannot list ONE from a Republican.

And since no one has mentioned it, I thank God Benjamin Bright-Fishbein was released unharmed.

Kimberly,

I really hope you don't think I care one iota about you or your opinion on things, i wouldn't wanna break your fragile little ego.

If you have some facts you wanna discuss, please, lay them out, because it seems to me you haven't had one valid point that I haven't rebutted; except ofcourse on the points we agree on.

XOXOXO

Kimberly, unfortunately the Iraqi civilians aren't so lucky, has anyone thought about them in a while...Oh I forgot, we don't even count their dead...must be nice to be worried about nice little white boys, and at the same time ignorant of even how many civilian deaths we are responsible for...compassionate my foot!

TEO… The only thing you may have “rebutted” is your backside that was taken off and handed to you many time here on B4B.

TEO… The only thing you may have “rebutted” is your backside that was taken off and handed to you many time here on B4B. Duct tape anyone?

Iraqi civilians??? You mean the ones that the previous ruler is no longer killing by the thousands on a regular basis? Yea, we’re taking care of them. The ones who now have fresh water and electricity? Yea, we’re taking care of them. The ones who have new schools, new jobs, a new democratically elected government and new hope for a free future? Yea, we’re taking care of them too.

I could ask, what’s your point but I already know. It’s to spread hatred. Animosity and lies wherever you can.

You mean the Iraqi civillian dead that are dying at a massively lower rate then they did while under saddam Hussein, who woudl have to have the current rate go on for fifty to a hundred years to come close?

I am so sick and tired of the neorads claiming they support our troops. The proof of this lie is evident in their posts.

This is a nuance Kimberly, so pay close attention. I can support the players and hate the play. I can support the troops and hate the war. I can support the troops and hate the neocons that propagated this act of bald aggression. I can support the troops and hate the War Profiteers.

Hope you at least understand what I am saying if not agree with me.

Iraqi civilians??? You mean the ones that the previous ruler is no longer killing by the thousands on a regular basis?

Yeah, you tell 'em DM. That's the insurgents job now.

DM,

What hole did you just crawl out from?

Would you be so kind as to give me some links or text where I had my butt handed to me, if not i'll let you go back to thinking about my luscious butt some more.

Oh, we are taking care of those civilians alright. By the way can you give me an accurate number of civilian deaths due to our "collateral damage"? Yeah didn't think so, infact we don't bother counting those people. Would you like to describe how benevolent the razing of Fallujah, and subsequent dislocation of half it's population, just to watch the insurgents run up the street, was? Or how about the displacement of HUNDREDS of thousands of civilians due to ethnic violence and military attacks?

"equally large-scale population displacements caused by multiple military operations across the country have been largely unreported. Several hundred thousand people were displaced by military operations during 2005. The security situation is tense and new displacements continued to be reported in early May. The potential for further displacement is high, particularly in Baghdad, and other areas of the country with mixed communities"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/nrc/114839678391.htm

So what we are seeing is the begining of the disintegration of Iraqi society due to ethnic cleansing. Quite a job we are doing helping these folks out.

Now we have spent a lot of time and money trying to refurb the years of neglect in Iraq's infrastructure, but the billions of dollars we have put aside has been drained into "security" needs, so the normal Iraqi is sitting in 130 degree heat with a few hours of electricity and water that they may have to walk miles to find.

I don't want to make this out to be all the fault of America, as a whole we are doing our best with the situation we have, but we need to start thinking about another way to go about this, the death and scarcity of resources is going to reach a tipping-point where we will find that the people are going to turn to strong-men to provide safety, and then we will have another Afghanistan on our hands, but this time they will be democratically elected...time is of the essence here.

must be nice to be worried about nice little white boys, and at the same time ignorant of even how many civilian deaths we are responsible for...compassionate my foot!

Posted by: Third Eye Open at June 13, 2006 01:58 PM

Blind eye, you guys are the s.i.heads that count every loss like it's going to be the last! We on the other hand(those with hands on experience)know the reallities of war, from our brothers next to us to the civilians that aren't even given the option, serious sacrifice is contemplated every moment we are in harms way! All the while the pacifist/liberals at home don't forget about us, they never thought about us, until it became a political advantage! STFU, by the way, do a little research, I'd love to know what the white to minority ratio in the U.S. military is. I think I may have even known some cuban/italian types, lol!

I like the Marines "unofficial" slogan. "You can run but you'll just die tired."

Guess the women, children and old men of Haditha died well rested!

Posted by: Ash at June 13, 2006 09:40 AM

This is a nuance Kimberly, so pay close attention. I can support the players and hate the play. I can support the troops and hate the war. I can support the troops and hate the neocons that propagated this act of bald aggression. I can support the troops and hate the War Profiteers.

Hope you at least understand what I am saying if not agree with me.

Posted by: Ash at June 13, 2006 05:33 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hmmmmm.........how about the truth for once Ash! You hate the players and the play! That's O.K. it's your perogative, of course it would also explain the irrelevance of anything you have to say also!

-- I don't hate Bush, I hate what he is doing and what he stands for. He is a fascist, wanting absolute power and uses the constitution as toilet paper. Americans travelling abroad have recently been warned not to wear anything that would indicate their nationality as it could endanger them. This is a first and Bush is to blame for unilateral actions and alienating the entire world. Hes a loner, thats the way he likes it and
figures if thats what suits him, thats also whats best for America. To stand alone.

Posted by: axis at June 13, 2006 09:52 AM

Bwahahaaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaa..............You are so full of it axis, it's running out your ears! You don't hate Bush? You don't hate conservatives? You don't hate our murdering, sadistic, self serving troops? Come on guys, truth, just for a fleeting moment......please!!!

Bear,

If we could all grow up and stop trying to play military man our entire lives, we would see that war is just a childish way to settle a dispute, but you get two pig-headed guys in a room who have something to prove, and that's when someone's feelings get hurt.

I count every life in hopes it WILL be the last, and if you don't care about the horrors that people lioving under the constant fear of either a terrorist or the US military killing them or their family, intentional or not, then you sir are not a human being worth the skin you're printed on.

axis says, with typical disregard for truth or reality:

"Mark, you do realize that 80% of the reason that you have a terrorist threat is because the U.S. has had overly aggressive foreign policies for decades......"

Then why don't they explain that they are trying to kill us for our policies? No, they are very clear that they are determined to kill us because we are INFIDELS. Not greedy infidels, not 'aggressive' infidels, but simply non-Muslims.

And have you forgotten the quotes from Osama himself, in which he clearly states that he felt emboldened to attack America and Americans because he believed we were too cowardly to defend ourselves or retaliate for anything done to us? As examples, he gave the first World Trade Center attack, the Khobar Towers, and the Cole, for three.

Only an idiot would hear these tapes, read these speeches, and then further encourage terrorists by giving them a pass on 9/11.

The new war is a war of preturbation. They don't want to conquer us, they just want to hurt---preturb---us. So the only effective response is counter-preturbation. And if you don't think we've been preturbing the hell out of them, you've been listening to entirely too much Ranty Rhodes. (Which would be 30 seconds a day, but that's for another post.)

And you can't possibly even GUESS at the civilian casualties until you can give us a reliable way to know which ARE "civilians" and which are combatants who simply do not wear military uniforms. A woman who helps build a bomb and then hides the man who plants it is a combatant, no matter how she dresses or what her gender.

TEO, that is a typical but serious problem amongst you libs. You think WAR is a testosterone issue, or a pride issue! It's NEVER an issue of self defense or God forbid, an issue of right or wrong! You put Hitler and FDR in the same room and try to compare their penis size, or Bush & Hussein, or Jesus & Mohhamed! It's not always a friggin boxing match believe it or not! If you try to rape my wife or children, the gloves are off and I'm GOING to kill you(don't get offended, I'm just making a point)! If you continue to rape your children in the house down the block from me, you can expect me to come aknockin shotgun in hand! Is that to much testosterone for you blind eye?

Bwahahaaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaa..............You are so full of it axis, it's running out your ears! You don't hate Bush? You don't hate conservatives? You don't hate our murdering, sadistic, self serving troops? Come on guys, truth, just for a fleeting moment......please!!!

-- No, I don't hate him, I hate what he is doing and what he stands for. It is possible to have one without the other you know. I don't hate conservatives either, I know and respect many, I hate what SOME conservatives are doing, in particularly the Neo-conservatives.

If troops are out there murdering, then they deserve no respect, they have no honor and should be jailed for a long, long time. If they are serving honorably however as most do, then yes, they have my 100% respect and support, but I can show support for the troops WITHOUT supporting the war.

Thats the thing, you are all snared up in the BUSH (You're either with us, or against us) motto, which is a load of crap.

Just about every third post kicks you right in the teeth TEO. I used to read B4B to learn the truth. Now I read it for that plus the entertainment of watching idiot views like the ones you hash here get thrown back in your face. The funniest part is that you don’t even see it.

Bear,

Stop stroking your own moral-certitude.

We are well within our rights to DEFEND ourselves, but you aren't allowed to use second-hand information from a guy up the street who didn't like your neighbor anyways, to go a-knockin', shotgun in hand. This is why we pay police to do their jobs, anything else is called vigilantism, and is ILLEGAL, get that through your skull...we are a nation of LAWS, not EMOTIONS; we follow the rules we have agreed to, because that is how we continue a viable, civilized culture; even in the face of despots and tyrants.

Now sometimes war is a last option we have to take, such as WWII, there was no talking our way out of those things; but after the smoke had cleared, and Europe saw just how screwed-up things had become, we agreed to an international set of laws to which we would ascribe, these included the ideal that a single nation didn't have the right to invade another nation just because it found their practices to be deplorable, we give that power to the SecCouncil and let them lead the way in making countries comply.

So quit trying to confuse WWII with this illegal invasion.

Wow, only about 30 outright lies in axis' latest tirade. Must be a new record.